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dementian
17-04-2013, 00:19
I have a rules question concerning the 1" rule after a charge. Imagine you perform double charge into a unit. In order to maximize models your two units are directly touching, this is the rule exception of keeping your units 1" away. If in combat the enemy is wiped out and your units want to overrun. At what point would you move your units back to 1" apart? Before moving for overrun? Also, how would you regain the 1" space? Nudge each unit 1/2" away?

Kalandros
17-04-2013, 07:04
I think the 1" rule applies when moving closer to things. If you're already closer than 1" due to such circumstances as Close combat then there's no need to move them.

yeknoMehT
17-04-2013, 07:24
If you think about the overrun, you move one unit, then you move the other. They occur 'at the same time' but you get to choose which order to move them. The one you move first goes wherever, the second one will have to obey the 1" rule on its overrun.

The exception for this would be if they roll high enough to both end up overrunning into the same enemy unit, and then you just treat it like a normal charge (ignoring the 1" rule).

More problematic would be if you didn't want to overrun - then you would have to shuffle both units 1/2" to create a gap, or reform them such that they had that gap anyway.

b4z
18-04-2013, 11:32
I am interested in this discussion...

Apply the same scenario as the opening post, except both friendly units want to reform, instead of overrun...

What annoys me about the rules is there is no explanation of the correct post combat reform procedure to follow regarding the 1" rule and the reforming of the two friendly units and specifically at which point you enforce the 1" Rule and also whether overlapping is allowed.

For example:

- A and B charge Enemy Unit.
- Enemy Unit is Wiped Out.
- A wishes to Reform. B wishes to Reform.

In order for A to Reform it must overlap upon B breaking the 1" Rule.
In order for B to Reform it must overlap upon A breaking the 1" Rule.

So neither can Reform without breaking the 1" Rule because it requires that they overlap.
Is overlapping allowed as part of a Reform? [as long as the final position is not overlapping]

If overlapping is not allowed must A and B be nudged 1/2" apart to adhere to the 1" Rule at which point their Reform is finished?

Is it possible for two friendly units who have charged a single enemy unit to Reform after Combat in a way that is actually satisfactory without breaking the 1" Rule?

Iraf
18-04-2013, 13:30
I am interested in this discussion...

Apply the same scenario as the opening post, except both friendly units want to reform, instead of overrun...

What annoys me about the rules is there is no explanation of the correct post combat reform procedure to follow regarding the 1" rule and the reforming of the two friendly units and specifically at which point you enforce the 1" Rule and also whether overlapping is allowed.

For example:

- A and B charge Enemy Unit.
- Enemy Unit is Wiped Out.
- A wishes to Reform. B wishes to Reform.

In order for A to Reform it must overlap upon B breaking the 1" Rule.
In order for B to Reform it must overlap upon A breaking the 1" Rule.

So neither can Reform without breaking the 1" Rule because it requires that they overlap.
Is overlapping allowed as part of a Reform? [as long as the final position is not overlapping]

If overlapping is not allowed must A and B be nudged 1/2" apart to adhere to the 1" Rule at which point their Reform is finished?

Is it possible for two friendly units who have charged a single enemy unit to Reform after Combat in a way that is actually satisfactory without breaking the 1" Rule?

Reforming wont necessarily end in unit A overlapping unit B or vice verse. Only if the unit was an exact square and the reform would maintain an exact square would the reform break the 1" rule. The units would maintain their unit "center" in a reform, so if you were to reform with less ranks, or a horde reforming in another direction leaving a gap between the 2 units the 1" rule would be maintained.

Although in the diagram you've shown, yes it would technically be illegal.

I think it would be really splitting hairs trying to not allow a reform from combat. Every time I've played or seen the game played, the players tend to use a bit of sense and move the units in a matter that seems consistent with the spirit of the game. Usually ending with a nudging apart to maintain the 1" rule.

b4z
18-04-2013, 15:06
Is this a legal process for reforming Unit A and Unit B in this post combat situation?

169060

- Physically pick up Unit A and rotate it around its centre point in the direction you want it to face (not changing its formation)
- Place it back down on the table (which means it will be overlapping Unit B)
- Physically pick up Unit B and rotate it around its centre point in the direction you want it to face (not changing its formation)
- Place it back down on the table (which means it will be overlapping Unit A)
- Nudge Unit A and Unit B so they are 1" apart.

Because we have always played that it is not legal.

yeknoMehT
18-04-2013, 15:17
No, you can definitely not overlap.
You might get away with it if they were able to sit within 1" (but not overlapping) then push them apart.

b4z
18-04-2013, 15:30
To continue the discussion...

We have always played it that "You can definitely not overlap"

However... it often creates situations, post-combat, where two friendly units are essentially obstructing each other from moving/reforming at all if you go by the absolute letter of the rules.

Because if you are to rotate either Unit A or Unit B by even the smallest amount they will be overlapping.

I guess the fundamental question is then... is it legal to rotate Unit A (around its centre point) through Unit B if its final position is not overlapping Unit B but still within 1" of Unit B.

yeknoMehT
18-04-2013, 20:56
I'd say so - if you image a reform as picking the unit up off the table, marking the centre point, changing it into whatever formation you want, and then putting it down again facing whichever way you want. I seem to recall that maybe in previous editions you had to be able to physically wheel around, but that isn't the case any more I believe.

Lord Inquisitor
18-04-2013, 21:00
I've run into the situation you describe, b4z, quite a few times in recent games, especially with a monster next to a unit or the most extreme: two monsters next to each other.

b4z
19-04-2013, 12:22
Although i see the common sense logic to your method yeknoMehT and Iraf...

If you follow the rules...

A] Warhammer Rulebook, Movement, 1" APART [Page 13]
"Whilst moving, a unit is not allowed to approach closer than 1" to another unit, friend or foe, or impassable terrain."

B] Warhammer Rulebook, Movement, Manoeuvres [Page 14]
"There are two specific manoeuvres that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform."

C] Warhammer Rulebook, Movement, Manoeuvres, Reform [Page 14]
"You can completely rearrange your unit, so that it is facing in any direction, by giving up all other movement and shooting. A unit of troops can change the direction in which it is facing and rearrange its formation all at once by means of a manoeuvre called a reform. [...] Keeping the centre point of the unit the same, arrange the unit into a new formation of as many ranks as you please, facing whichever direction you wish. Remember that none of the models in the unit can move more than twice their Movement rate."

...then it makes the entire process of (two friendly units, who are side by side post-combat) reforming illegal.

Going by the rules... you are not allowed to rotate either unit at all but must terminate the Reform instantly, and then just nudge the two units 1/2" each apart to create the 1" gap.

---

So how do you resolve the situation Lord Inquisitor?

yeknoMehT
19-04-2013, 12:34
Yes, however, by the same logic I think it makes any combat reform illegal - iirc the only exemption for the 1" rule is when charging, so you could not combat reform at all as you would be within 1" of the enemy (while moving - not charging). Unless there is a blanket rule somewhere that I've forgotten about ignoring the 1" rule once you are in CC with the unit?
Clearly that would be wrong, so perhaps we've not got a problem here?

This is getting rather interesting...

b4z
19-04-2013, 12:50
As you are aware the situation the OP described and i adapted is based around performing a standard reform.
Which is a manoeuvre encompassed within regular movement and therefore needs to adhere to the rules for regular movement.

A combat reform is given an exemption...

Warhammer Rulebook, Close Combat, Combat Reform [Page 55]
"A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14) save for the fact that it can be made even though the unit is in close combat."

------------------------

In the interests of functionality on the tabletop is it fair to assume that...
1] you are allowed to rotate Unit A assuming that Unit B is not present as long as its final position and formation is not overlapping Unit B
2] then you are allowed to rotate Unit B assuming that Unit A is not present as long as its final position and formation is not overlapping Unit A.
3] at which point you are allowed to nudge the two units so that they are 1" apart.

Or...

1] you are allowed to rotate Unit A assuming that Unit B is not present as long as its final position and formation is not within 1" of Unit B
2] then you are allowed to rotate Unit B assuming that Unit A is not present as long as its final position and formation is not within 1" of Unit B

The problem with this second method is that its practically impossible.

yeknoMehT
19-04-2013, 13:51
Yes, I realise we weren't talking about combat reforms - I was simply pointing out that the same argument could be made to say that combat reforms are illegal (which they clearly are not). Proof by contradiction, of a sort.

The allowance to carry out a combat reform in combat doesn't give it an exemption from the 1" rule explicitly does it? I agree that it is ridiculous to say you can't combat reform because you will be within an inch of your opponent and not charging. Are you required, however, to obey the 1" rule with your own units in a combat reform?

I'd go with the first method. There is no defined rulings on the path models must taking during a reform move - they're certainly not restrained to remain in a particular formation during it (since that is the point of the reform - changing the formation!). Each model could be considered to go in a wiggly line that is at least 1" from all other units to reach the final position (overlapping in this case is fine within the unit itself). Provided no model would end up needing to move more than double their move, I think you're fine.

Iraf
19-04-2013, 15:33
There is an implicit exception to the 1" rule for combat reforms since you are always within 1" of the enemy you are in contact with.
Since trying to follow the 1" rule for combat reforms is always a failure, you must logically ignore the 1" rule.

Lord Inquisitor
19-04-2013, 15:38
There's a pretty woolly wording on page 13:

Occasionally, a unit will have approached to within 1" of a unit it did not charge as the result of moving into contact with a unit it did charge. This is perfectly acceptable, although players may wish to nudge the units further apart to maintain a suitable degree of clarity.

While this probably means enemy units but there's no reason it couldn't be read as friendly units. Could you take this to mean you are allowed to nudge units 1" apart after combat is finished?

Blinder
19-04-2013, 18:20
Going just by what's been transcribed here (book isn't at hand),

You are not allowed to *approach* to within more than 1" aside from certain exceptions, there is nothing prohibiting you from acting if you are already within 1". So, two units that end up side-by-side should just move in such a way as to prevent overlap, with an in-rules allowance of normally impossible movement "for clarity" if you want to put the inch back. Additionally, when reforming, the unit does not rotate, it is rearranged. I'd say this means you would have to end up with a 1" gap and would have to handle the units one at a time, but that would be the extent of the limitations being right next to another unit should introduce. You wouldn't be able to wheel away from a neighboring unit, of course.