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KaldorDraigo
27-04-2013, 22:04
So as we know, some lucky guys actually survive their first battles and progress to be battlefield veterans, who obviously have the advantage over basic troops. But I'm interested in the various different ways they distinguish veteran status from other units.

- Improved wargear options.

Stern guard, Vanguard, Chosen. They have virtually the same stats as the basic troops, but have a vastly different load outs, with better gear and sometimes unique gear. I'd put stuff like Crisis Suits here because their wargear is most likely why they have different stats.

- Special Rules

Veterans of the Long War, Inner Circle, Tank Hunter. These are skills veterans have, but often to a lesser degree as wargear.

-Stat Upgrade

Very rare I find, the only notable one is IG Veterans. However almost all Veterans do have a better LD.

So what I'm interested in, is the preference to their veterans distinctions? Do they like stat upgrades, perhaps new fancy toys?

I personally prefer new wargear. The new toys that veterans get to play with kick ass! Stern guard bolters anyone?

Grocklock
27-04-2013, 22:08
For orks nobs get all of that, better weapons, better states, sometimes mega-armour

KaldorDraigo
27-04-2013, 22:20
Sorry, I suppose I should have been clearer. When I say stat increase, I was referring to one of the primary first 4 stats. How many veterans actually fight better on raw numbers that aren't a simple attack boost.

I suppose I should say something like a stat boost that a sergeant wouldn't get.

An example once again is IG veterans, with an increase is BS that is incredibly rare for veterans. Another example could be Khorne bezerkers, who have a higher WS, although there could be a debate on the Veteran status of non Veterans of the Long War Bezerkers, at least compared to normal Chaos Marines

Ssilmath
27-04-2013, 22:27
Space Marine Veterans, as well as Chosen, have an extra attack over their normal brethren. When coupled with their access to lots of power weapons, you have devastating melee capabilities provided you can get there. Having access to special weapons or combi weapons adds to the flexibility of the squads, which increases their versatility. In this case, I think it matches the background quite well, as your veterans are the squads you use to plug holes in the formation or go after the big, nasty enemy units.

As for other veterans, Nobs have a higher strength, Guard shoot better, Necrons have better armor and guns or a toughness boost alongside melee weapons. 90% of the Eldar codex fill the role of veterans, but if you consider exarchs to be veterans then they have better armor and better WS and BS. Dark Eldar just get access to more gear, I think.

Nikolaus
27-04-2013, 23:02
Space Marine Veterans, as well as Chosen, have an extra attack over their normal brethren. When coupled with their access to lots of power weapons, you have devastating melee capabilities provided you can get there. Having access to special weapons or combi weapons adds to the flexibility of the squads, which increases their versatility. In this case, I think it matches the background quite well, as your veterans are the squads you use to plug holes in the formation or go after the big, nasty enemy units.

As for other veterans, Nobs have a higher strength, Guard shoot better, Necrons have better armor and guns or a toughness boost alongside melee weapons. 90% of the Eldar codex fill the role of veterans, but if you consider exarchs to be veterans then they have better armor and better WS and BS. Dark Eldar just get access to more gear, I think.

i see exarchs as Captains... Aspect as specialized veterans and guardians as meat shield.

Ssilmath
27-04-2013, 23:06
i see exarchs as Captains... Aspect as specialized veterans and guardians as meat shield.

I'd have placed Autarchs as captains, but I can see where you are coming from.

Chem-Dog
27-04-2013, 23:36
A lot of this depends on how you define "veteran", 40K often tends to make it's veterans into Elite units (regardless of their FOC location).

In the purest sense I would say a veteran should only be represented by improved stats and, possibly, skills when compared to the line trooper equivalent, simply representing combat skills that have either been honed through the crucible of war or innate ability that has enabled them to attain veteran status in the first place (Chicken/Egg). 40k makes a pig's ear of this kind of thing generally boiling it down to a point of Ld and maybe an extra attack (oh yay, my long-range veteran support squad is better in a punch-up).

Any standard stat increase is going to be situational when applied to different units or models within them depending on the type of unit and it's battlefield focus, the only exception is Wounds. For what it's worth I'd like to see "veteran" automatically qualify any unit or individual for an additional wound above the standard. We'd then see a slight shift in the results of Challenges - Veteran Squad Leader Speedbump might actually feasibly survive a round of combat with Lord Killsmash III - and it would give Veteran Squads a measurable improvement in their utility on the table without greatly upsetting the balance of relative ability across armies.

MagicHat
27-04-2013, 23:49
I think the Marines have a sensible system. Extra A, Ld and gear makes sense for them.
Tau shas'ui and shas'vre gaining gear = good. Gaining extra A instead of BS... Kinda weird. The only BS 4 infantry model is the ethereal guard, and they don't use guns, so Tau infantry jumps from BS3 to BS5 when they becomes commanders.

SoB is weird. Dominions, Retributors, Seraphim and Repentia are flavourful and have somewhat sensible equipment and rules, although a bit overcosted. Repentias are overcosted by quite a margin IMO and their Act is incredibly flawed, but equipment and rules-wise, they are sensible.
Then we have Celestians, given the SM sergeant treatment, except not given the special gear and so obviously overpriced when compared to even CSM with boltguns/bolt pistols/CCW. Terrible design there.

EDIT: I would prefer veterans having special rules and gear, and minor stat-boosts.

ehlijen
28-04-2013, 00:05
Legion of the damned sergeants gain +1 WS, is that an example of what you're after?

FashaTheDog
28-04-2013, 00:17
My Krieg have a very simple system for veteran status; veterans are Watchmaster, Grenadiers, and Officers. Everyone else is a new recruit waiting to die on their first sortie.

gunmnky
28-04-2013, 00:31
Inner circle isn't a rule granted to veterans. It's something else entirely, and it's above even company veterans. Technically all space marines in power armor are veterans, and all scout sergeants are veterans as well. It's odd GW chooses to differentiate veterans of veterans by calling them veterans :rolleyes:.

Typically a veteran does not have any more skill with weapons than a recruit unless you're talking dark ages or pre-Roman civilizations without standing armies. Modern militaries field soldiers with considerable training.

The difference is in how long it takes the unit to break (morale), the percentage of soldiers that actually use their weapon, and the survival rate of the veterans. But 40k is a company level game, so it's hard to single out specific recruits, and the system doesn't allow very much flexibility in stats. The difference between str 3 and str 4 is the difference between a normal human and the ability to tear the engine out of the back of a tank. That's an enormous gap, and not level of veterancy will bridge it.

Though fluff wise, it says Dark Angel company veterans are allowed great freedom to select weapons from the armory due to their vast experience. So GW does apparently think that experience is rewarded with wargear, and not necessarily rank. IG veterans have a large selection because they are the remains of an entire platoon or company, so they literally have all the best remaining elements at their disposal.

Other elites, such as banshees, aren't in that class because of any specific experience, but because they are now part of that aspect. I believe eldrad was even a warp spider (and sucked at it) before becoming a farseer (or was it a striking scorpion?). 40k is an entirely feudal system, so you have to expect that everything is based on experience. For example, crisis suit pilots are selected from veteran fire warriors. Why? That's like saying F15 pilots are only selected from infantry divisions.

Personally, I'd rather see an increase in cover saves and initiative for veteran units more than anything else. Realistically, if someone was really good with a heavy bolter, why would you take it away and give them a plasma gun? You just removed the skill that made them a veteran. But logic and 40k don't mix well.