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budman
29-04-2013, 09:04
So I Took a dragowing to a battle yesterday
It ended up being too small a force to take objectives or do the damage to the other side to take them out - a fun game :D

The Grey Knights have never seemed to me playing 6th to be as hard-core nasty as the rep states :shifty:
for the guys in silver

lantzkev
29-04-2013, 09:12
because you're doing it wrong.

Howl
29-04-2013, 09:17
I don't understand your question?

Excessus
29-04-2013, 10:06
because you're doing it wrong.
This...

(words for the word god)

Ruination Drinker
29-04-2013, 10:24
Hmm, no. Next question.

Konovalev
29-04-2013, 15:23
GK took a serious hit in 6th, but many people are still quite bitter over their power in 5th so you're not going to get any sympathy for another half-decade or so at least.

Vaktathi
29-04-2013, 15:42
So I Took a dragowing to a battle yesterday
It ended up being too small a force to take objectives or do the damage to the other side to take them out - a fun game :D

The Grey Knights have never seemed to me playing 6th to be as hard-core nasty as the rep states :shifty:
for the guys in silver
They aren't as nasty as they were in 5th, due to some fundamental changes in the core rules (such as wound allocation, transport and assault rules, CC weapon AP changes, etc) but remain very good.

Chapters Unwritten
29-04-2013, 17:12
Yeah. Unfortunately, like my long dethroned Space Wolves, the rep will follow GK around like a plague.

Scribe of Khorne
29-04-2013, 17:17
Yeah. Unfortunately, like my long dethroned Space Wolves, the rep will follow GK around like a plague.

Are you implying that Wolves are not still in the upper levels of power? :p

Marshal
29-04-2013, 19:34
Yeah. Unfortunately, like my long dethroned Space Wolves, the rep will follow GK around like a plague.

What glue have you been sniffing before you posted that? Maybe you're playing Space Wolves wrong... Cheap effective dual melta gun troop squads in pods... I would give my left testicle to have my troops to be that effective...

lantzkev
29-04-2013, 19:40
don't forget long fang spam =D

Dylius
29-04-2013, 19:54
Yeah. Unfortunately, like my long dethroned Space Wolves, the rep will follow GK around like a plague.

Shouldn't that be de-fanged?

Ruination Drinker
29-04-2013, 20:32
What glue have you been sniffing before you posted that? Maybe you're playing Space Wolves wrong... Cheap effective dual melta gun troop squads in pods... I would give my left testicle to have my troops to be that effective...

Yeah, I've hated Kelly for all the cheap utility he built into the Wolves. Love the dudes in TDA walking around with meltaguns. They got so much better with IG allies and taking them is "fluffy" too!

Dark_Kindred
29-04-2013, 23:28
IMO that traditional Grey Knights are definitely beatable, even with "mid tier" armies through movement and low AP weapons. Things like Runes of Warding, Night Shields, and other tricky pieces of wargear can ruin a Grey Knight's day. Drop pod armies are the same--they can be devastating but you can also ravage them piecemeal. Decent counter-assault elements plus focus fire do wonders.

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 01:00
What glue have you been sniffing before you posted that? Maybe you're playing Space Wolves wrong... Cheap effective dual melta gun troop squads in pods... I would give my left testicle to have my troops to be that effective...Would you give your right to have the whole rest of your codex be WS3/BS3 then?

Death Whisper
30-04-2013, 01:07
Would you give your right to have the whole rest of your codex be WS3/BS3 then?

Are you trying to say that all units outside of Grey Hunters are Bloodclaws? Anyway, SW are probably the most powerful codex still. (Reference NOVA).

Ssilmath
30-04-2013, 01:08
Would you give your right to have the whole rest of your codex be WS3/BS3 then?

Wait...what? Only what, three units in the codex are Scout level WS and BS? The majority of the Codex is Space Marines +1, so I don't know what you are talking about.

IcedCrow
30-04-2013, 01:09
Grey KNights are not as efficient... but they are still top tier. This is demonstrated by their continued numbers taken by powergamers at the big tournaments and at how well they place.

Draigowing is not the uber build it was simply because it lost its ability to spread the wounds around with the new edition. Its still fairly strong... just not the one-two shot in the mouth that it used to be due to it being pretty much impossible to inflict wounds on before it lost its combat effectiveness before.

With more practice you should find grey knights more than adequate at handling pretty much anything in the game still.

Death Company
30-04-2013, 02:22
GK took a serious hit in 6th, but many people are still quite bitter over their power in 5th so you're not going to get any sympathy for another half-decade or so at least.

Grey Knights are just barely below Necrons in the contest for the top spot of codex supremacy. If your codex can take a 'serious hit' like it did, and still fight for said spot, it says a lot about just how absurd the book was.


Yeah. Unfortunately, like my long dethroned Space Wolves, the rep will follow GK around like a plague.

Wolves are still a top-tier codex.


Are you trying to say that all units outside of Grey Hunters are Bloodclaws? Anyway, SW are probably the most powerful codex still. (Reference NOVA).

I'd argue Necrons and then Grey Knights, personally. Just look to Adepticon's tourney results.

Sternguard777
30-04-2013, 04:59
No, they are most definatley made of plastic. :D

Excessus
30-04-2013, 07:32
Would you give your right to have the whole rest of your codex be WS3/BS3 then?
I don't think I have ever faced a Spae Wolf unit with Ws/Bs 3...

NewandForgiven
30-04-2013, 07:57
I don't think I have ever faced a Spae Wolf unit with Ws/Bs 3...

I'm going to say that's probably because the 3 (I think) Bloodclaw units (which are the WS3/BS3 ones) aren't used by anyone who cares about winning.

But granted, it really isn't 'the rest of the codex' that has those stats. None of the HQ, Elites or Heavy do and it's approximately half the troops and fast attack do.

Menthak
30-04-2013, 12:07
Grey Knights are just barely below Necrons in the contest for the top spot of codex supremacy. If your codex can take a 'serious hit' like it did, and still fight for said spot, it says a lot about just how absurd the book was.

This, This, a thousand times; This.

LordofShadows
30-04-2013, 12:48
Grey knights are not as strong as they used to be in my opinion. I am sorry but alot of this Grey Knights are still op crap is from 5th edition when they were redicolous

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 13:19
I think the power weapon changes leveled them out quite a bit. They still have pretty good shooting, but now they have a weakness that is pretty glaring, and that is a lack of AP2 across the board. I still think they are very good but they are much less ridiculous then they were in the previous edition.

I still really don't think every unit needed its own special psychic powers.

totgeboren
30-04-2013, 13:29
I think the power weapon changes leveled them out quite a bit. They still have pretty good shooting, but now they have a weakness that is pretty glaring, and that is a lack of AP2 across the board. I still think they are very good but they are much less ridiculous then they were in the previous edition.

I still really don't think every unit needed its own special psychic powers.

What? Where is this "lack of Ap2" you speak of? As far as I can tell, having faced them many many times, they have better access to Thunderhammers than just about any other MEQs, they all have access to psycannons which are Ap2 when they rend, which they tend to do a lot thanks to a silly rate of fire (only within 12" does a plasmagun become a better anti-terminator gun than a Psycannon, and you don't want to be within 12" of Terminators), they have Dreadknights who stomp anything flat, and dreads with lascannons if someone somehow felt that the lack of Ap2 was a problem (which it is not).

And really, if it's a problem, an Inq and some henchmen can pack a lot of plasma if they feel like it.

They are not as ridiculous as they were in 5ed, but they are still ridiculous in comparison with any 6ed codex.

Konovalev
30-04-2013, 14:03
As far as I can tell, having faced them many many times, they have better access to Thunderhammers than just about any other MEQs
I'd say DA has the best hammer carriers, with SM or SW coming in 2nd. GK can't have 3++ AND a hammer. In fact GK terminators/paladins can't have 3++ at all outside of Draigo. A GK terminator or even paladin squad is going to have a bad day against your standard 5 man SS/TH squad.

Fair point on psycannons, they can rend, but I've never seen anyone run lascannons on a GK dreadnought. Dark Eldar, Guard, Tau, Chaos SM, and DA can wreck GK pretty handily.

Excessus
30-04-2013, 14:19
but I've never seen anyone run lascannons on a GK dreadnought.
That's because they don't need to. Psycannons takes care of their ap2 needs pretty decently.

And DA have better access to hammers? In what way? Every single troop choice in GK apart from henchmen can take hidden hammers...

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 14:29
AP2 in close combat, specifically.

Terminators with Power Fists slaughter these guys by the dozens.

I have a Space Wolf army with plenty of TL Razorbacks and frankly the internet's thought process of just how often things rend is overstated. With 6 TL assault cannons, I get maybe ~6 rends a game on average. I see guys talkign the talk all the time about how it's better than a lascannon, but I've never considered either of them good anti tank. A melta gun is GOOD anti tank. Rending is situational and luck dependent; if I throw 3 melta guns at a Land Raider, it is pretty much for all intents and purposes dead; if I throw 3 psycannons at it, I might not even hurt it at all in a fair number of situations. The rending and str7 definitely hurt, but the fact that a lot of the time I will be getting saves or not getting pen'ed is key, IMO.

Realistically, I just don't think it is that scary when there is a 5/6 change it won't be AP2. Rending also allows Feel No Pain and Cover, so there's at least counters. 5E GK ignored FNP with Rends and ignored even the best armor with all power weapons. Now, 2+ saves and FNP can both be used against them, as well as Deny The Witch to try and resist their psychic abilities. Comparatively, in close combat, they have the hammer, but this brings them to I1, which is another disadvantage that can be useful for the opponent.

I think many people are too busy going "ZOMG GK SO OVERPOWERED" on the internet to really take notice of how to fight them. AP2 is - and always has been - their kryptonite. It's just now in CC they are much weaker, and susceptible to other armies' AP2 CC weapons.

I do definitely agree with the earlier sentiment, however, that it is still top tier and, by extension, it is clear how way outside the scope of the previous edition the book was, that it took all these hits and is still a top tier book.

Fingers
30-04-2013, 14:36
I would definitely put GK in the "Upper Middle" Tier at this point, however I may just not play the broken lists that I always hear about. Necrons, IG, SW and supposedly the new Tau would be my upper 4 armies yyou can mix and match the order depending on flavor of the month I guess. Personally I like the GK. A small "elite" army that can stand up to the Demonic Hordes of the universe and still live to tell the tale. Plus I love the Coteaz Model :)

Vaktathi
30-04-2013, 15:04
AP2 in close combat, specifically.

Terminators with Power Fists slaughter these guys by the dozens.

I have a Space Wolf army with plenty of TL Razorbacks and frankly the internet's thought process of just how often things rend is overstated. With 6 TL assault cannons, I get maybe ~6 rends a game on average. Assuming each gets to fire 3 times, on average you should see double that number.


I see guys talkign the talk all the time about how it's better than a lascannon, but I've never considered either of them good anti tank. It's changed a bit since 4th and 5th, the AC was hilariously superior since rending was a straight additional D6, 5th was a bit more equal with weight towards the AC, in 6th the AC is superior at inflicting destruction via HP's but the Lascannon superior at killing straight away, at least against AV14

3eland
30-04-2013, 15:33
Wasn't the Grey Knight Codex printed in 5th but for 6th in mind?

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 15:35
I don't know if that was the case but it seems to me that it was, just because all those power weapons everywhere seemed really off balance in fifth to me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

wyvirn
30-04-2013, 15:37
I think they had the inklings of 6th down (see mastery levels and other special rules), but GK came out a year and a half before 6th came out.

Xerkics
30-04-2013, 16:40
Also last time I checked gk players always make their psyc str8 I'd take the str 8 spam any day over 1 str9 lasc shot

Konovalev
30-04-2013, 16:50
And DA have better access to hammers? In what way?

Do they not get storm shields to go with those hammers? Striking last tends to mean you will take hits before being able to strike back. A 3++ invulnerable save greatly mitigates this.

O'Udas
30-04-2013, 17:19
GK power builds are based on Coteaz or Crowe unlocking ridiculous troop choices. Psybolt dreads are also up there. However, if your struggling against lists not spamming the above then your probably not doing it right. Standard marines do thunder hammers better. I'd also say a cheesed out guard list puts any list GK can do to shame, with wolves running pretty close behind.

MagicHat
30-04-2013, 17:35
Do they not get storm shields to go with those hammers? Striking last tends to mean you will take hits before being able to strike back. A 3++ invulnerable save greatly mitigates this.

Most of the AP2 kinda strikes last as well. And GK players can have a 2++ save in their unit.
5 TH/SS terminators charging 5 GK terminators with DH and 1 warding stave average killing the stave guy. The GK average one kill back. This is not counting the units warding stave guy, shooting or overwatch (mostly because it might kill one MEQ if lucky).
If the GK charge, the TH/SS terminators average 0.66 wounds, and the GKT 1.64. And the GK have force weapons, psykout grenades and can turn their hammers into S10, greatly upping their threat against T5 and vehicles.
Obviously the TH/SS terminators have perks on their own, like constant 3++, giving an edge in combat and versus shooting, but they are not massively stronger then the GKT.

Grenzstein
30-04-2013, 18:01
AP2 in close combat, specifically.

Is this truly considered a crippling weakness now? Their basic infantry is capable of casually sweeping anything without a 2+ save- and for those they always have the option of focused fire. Should they somehow be forced to engage a 2+ target in melee, they can always take advantage of their outrageous grenades- psychotroke specifically, amongst other toys.

I'm just not seeing this glaring weakness that Grey Knight players are claiming. I mean, should you face a Deathwing army- yeah, you're probably going to have a bad time.. but so do Daemons when they face Grey Knights.

totgeboren
30-04-2013, 18:35
Well, GKs have something better than 3++ in close combat, they got their warding staff which gives a 2++ save in close combat, and as long as the wielder is in base to base contact, the GK player can pour all those nasty Ap2 attacks onto the warding staff model. And saying powerfists are awesome in close combat because they kill GKs, whilst the GKs getting their free upgrade of force swords to Daemon Hammers is not all that because it makes them I1 is just so self-refuting that it's silly, especially when we take into account that GKs get their 2++ save in close combat from the warding staff.

If TH/SS terminators are good, bog standard GK terminators must be better because they hit harder, have better saves in close combat and retain their ability to shoot, not to mention their anti-psychic defences.

GK termies with a warding staff, daemon hammers and a psycannon shoot better than normal termies, hit harder than TH/SS termies in close combat and are more resilient in close combat too (though they are only as resilient to shooting as normal termies, oh the horror, especially as they cost about the same...)

The only reason GKs might have a problem with 2+ save models in close combat is because everyone gave them halberds in 5ed and haven't bothered changing the tops to hammers instead of blades. Daemon Hammers are a free upgrade. I wish my Chaos Terminators got to upgrade their powerweapons to thunderhammers for free...

lantzkev
30-04-2013, 20:09
I still don't think grey knights, even in 5th were that viscous, I just think folks didn't know how to deal with them and still don't, but that's a different argument that "net wisdom" won't win.

They were and are space marines, that means they have no real vulnerability and the only draw back to them ever is point costs.

The biggest thing for them was how they all could ignore armor 2+ and up in 5th because of force weapons, that was literally their only saving grace compared to say blood angels or space wolves.

Konovalev
30-04-2013, 20:33
Warding staves are hideously expensive. The idea that you "just give them a warding stave" to up GK termi's chances in combat against things like SS/TH is flawed because now you're paying more than SS/TH just to try and match them.

Israfael
30-04-2013, 20:41
I still don't think grey knights, even in 5th were that viscous, I just think folks didn't know how to deal with them and still don't, but that's a different argument that "net wisdom" won't win.

I'm trying to make sure that I understood you correctly. Grey Knights are not a top-tier codex; people - the tourney community included - just don't know how to fight them, thus they prosper. Is that about right?


Warding staves are hideously expensive. The idea that you "just give them a warding stave" to up GK termi's chances in combat against things like SS/TH is flawed because now you're paying more than SS/TH just to try and match them.

Seeing as most of your choices are decently priced- if not undercosted, I'm not sure why having to pay points in one area is lamentable.

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 20:45
Is this truly considered a crippling weakness now? Their basic infantry is capable of casually sweeping anything without a 2+ save- and for those they always have the option of focused fire. Should they somehow be forced to engage a 2+ target in melee, they can always take advantage of their outrageous grenades- psychotroke specifically, amongst other toys.

I'm just not seeing this glaring weakness that Grey Knight players are claiming. I mean, should you face a Deathwing army- yeah, you're probably going to have a bad time.. but so do Daemons when they face Grey Knights.I agree with most eveyrthing you are saying, mind you. But lack of AP2 in CC is a weakness they didn't have before. It's not a huge one, sure, but it is still a weakness that can be exploited to some degree. Every time a fist swings successfully you are pasting 20-50 points of their list into the toilet. That's always been the cause but you usually got pasted by the power weapons long before the fact.

It isn't much, but AP2 has frankly always been their weakness. The 5+ invul doesn't do much.

TheDoctor
30-04-2013, 20:48
*Looks over at my Eldar, who have such an abundance of 2+ armor saves*
*Looks over at my friends Tyranids, which have an abundance of 2+ Monstrous creatures*

MagicHat
30-04-2013, 21:09
Warding staves are hideously expensive. The idea that you "just give them a warding stave" to up GK termi's chances in combat against things like SS/TH is flawed because now you're paying more than SS/TH just to try and match them.

GK squad with stave: 220 points.
5 TH/SS terminators: C:SM 200, C: BA 225. DA: 245, C: SW 315.

Evol Intent
30-04-2013, 21:14
GK squad with stave: 220 points.
5 TH/SS terminators: C:SM 200, C: BA 225. DA: 245, C: SW 315.

How 'hideous'. :p

Grenzstein
30-04-2013, 22:07
I agree with most eveyrthing you are saying, mind you. But lack of AP2 in CC is a weakness they didn't have before. It's not a huge one, sure, but it is still a weakness that can be exploited to some degree. Every time a fist swings successfully you are pasting 20-50 points of their list into the toilet. That's always been the cause but you usually got pasted by the power weapons long before the fact.

Grey Knights can drown you in plasma toting henchmen and psycannons. So their struggle to handle a 2+ model is limited to melee only- and why not? Why do they need to be able to sweep terminators with the same ease with which they kill all other base infantry and monstrous creatures? They have an exceptional melee edge over other armies as it is: they hit like marines, while striking as fast as eldar, and then ID you. I just can't see how it's argued that their inability to easily handle the best save in the game- which is limited to a few select HQs, MCs, and certain units which are certainly not cheap (and limited to CC in the case of TH/SS termies), somehow levels them out power wise.

'Well, we don't just inherently win all melee fights now. We're in a bad place, guys'. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.


It isn't much, but AP2 has frankly always been their weakness. The 5+ invul doesn't do much.

So take a 2++, psychotrokes, and then you're prepared should you face a squad of terminators. ;)

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 22:25
I'm not saying they are balanced. All I'm saying is they have a weakness they didn't have before. There's no need to take it to a logical extreme. The AP2 in CC thing is actually TWO weaknesses; they give 2+ saves with most of their previously armor-negating weaponry, PLUS they themselves are more vulnerable to weapons which actually still go through Terminator armor.

AP2 spam always hurts them, that is how I've been fighting them since day one and it is, IMO, the only thing that works. You have to make the hits count. I don't even use my Long Fangs against them; double Vindicators put the fear of god into them, after all.

I get that the Warding Staff is good but don't act like it is going to make it impossible to beat them in CC, or like every unit will have one. It's not hard to kill specific models in this edition; that guy ought to be dead before you make combat if you are going that route.

3eland
30-04-2013, 22:47
<SNIP>

So take a 2++, psychotrokes, and then you're prepared should you face a squad of terminators. ;)

lol I did this to an extent once, Brother-Captain with psychotrokes and Ammo upgrade in a unit of 10 Termies with 2 hammers, a stave, banner, 2 psycannons, rest halberds and then ammo upgrade. They were 685 points of bad ass in CC let me tell you.


<SNIP>

double Vindicators put the fear of god into them, after all.

This is true, however Vindicators have a range of 24", so I find it's more of a "Who gets in range first" sort of deal, last game I played SW player that brought two Vindicators, I had two units of ten termies each with two cannons (one group had Libby with reroll to hit). Took them out Turn two without them even being able to shoot.

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 22:55
Against them, I have the big guarantee that they will be coming to within 24"...so I usually just put the tanks behind the Aegis line and wait. :) There are of course numerous counters to this but even GK players are not immune to the irrational fear of Grey Hunters in many of my games against them.

3eland
30-04-2013, 23:00
Against them, I have the big guarantee that they will be coming to within 24"...so I usually just put the tanks behind the Aegis line and wait. :) There are of course numerous counters to this but even GK players are not immune to the irrational fear of Grey Hunters in many of my games against them.

The SW player actually won, he had 4 units of 10 vanilla Grey Hunters, two units of snipers and a bunch of other things. I couldn't handle all the rapid fire guns lol In the end I had him down to half a unit of Grey Hunters, his snipers and his warlord before I was defeated. Was a good game none the less, and I agree there are other armies that can match GK fairly well.

Grenzstein
30-04-2013, 23:00
I'm not saying they are balanced. All I'm saying is they have a weakness they didn't have before. There's no need to take it to a logical extreme.

Nobody is debating that they now have a weakness- they do. What's being argued - by Grey Knight players, no less - is that they're suddenly in a bad place because of it; or that they are no longer a top-tier codex as a direct ramification. Which clearly isn't the case, if we check any tourney rankings.


I get that the Warding Staff is good but don't act like it is going to make it impossible to beat them in CC, or like every unit will have one. It's not hard to kill specific models in this edition; that guy ought to be dead before you make combat if you are going that route.

Nobody said that it made them 'unbeatable'. However, having a 2++ stave soaking up your wounds, and psychotroke grenades to handicap the enemy squad, you have a damn good chance of besting a terminator squad by the numbers. This is when you're 'forced' to engage them in melee. Otherwise, focus fire them with your abundance of AP2 shooting.

Excessus
30-04-2013, 23:11
Heck, interceptor squads may be expensive, but they sure as hell can bring some heavy firepower in the **** of any tanks hiding behind an ADL...and so can DKs...

LOL! You can't seriously think that only because GKs are having a hard time to take out 2+ in melee (though still a better chance than most codexes) that they are not top tier? Is this really the only argument you have? And whoever it was comparing costs, you have to factor in the land raider there too, otherwise you have to calculate the GK termies firepower as well before the TH/SS termies even reach them! (same with DS)


So far the "arguments" against the GK codex being top tier has not been very persuasive...

lantzkev
30-04-2013, 23:54
I wasn't saying they aren't top tier, but they certainly aren't stronger than any other space marine codex really, they are just different.

The thing that made them super awesome in 5th is gone, and now they are balanced really.

There's really nothing they do that another army can't do better, it's just that they do everything good and nothing bad.

But they really don't excell at anything like other chapters can and do.

Grenzstein
01-05-2013, 00:01
I wasn't saying they aren't top tier, but they certainly aren't stronger than any other space marine codex really, they are just different.

You have to realize that doesn't hold up, when you glance at tournament listings.

Or maybe Grey Knights just attract all the 'pro' players.. :shifty:

Avatar_exADV
01-05-2013, 00:09
Some of their worst excesses have been curbed a little. Their force weapons are no longer auto-win in melee versus anyone in 2+ armor, they don't have a whole lot of flyer support or anything with Skyfire on it, and Fortitude is a lot less important now that three glances will kill a Rhino without rolling on the damage table at all. There's also more of an emphasis on mass infantry (which can outnumber GK) and on anti-MEQ shooting (obviously nasty when your MEQs are more than 20 points a pop!)

Dreadknights got a huge boost in that they can challenge the enemy's hidden fists - pure murder if they accept, and they're virtually immune to regular melee attacks if they don't. That said, they don't like all the extra plasma floating around. Coteaz is also just sick in the new edition, powerful cheap psyker who also unlocks the henchman toy-chest? He's virtually auto-include now.

On the other hand, EVERYONE can ally in Guard or someone (except nids... sorry, guys) if they need some cheap infantry support.

They're still plenty strong, just not absolutely -filthy- cheese like they were.

lantzkev
01-05-2013, 00:41
dreadknights did get a boost (and honestly aside from the challenge, it was a needed boost imo)

totgeboren
01-05-2013, 08:53
AP2 in close combat, specifically.

Terminators with Power Fists slaughter these guys by the dozens.

Realistically, I just don't think it is that scary when there is a 5/6 change it won't be AP2. Rending also allows Feel No Pain and Cover, so there's at least counters.

But the only reason Terminators with powerfists slaughter GKs by the dozen is because people have their GKs tooled for 5ed. GK termies with Daemonhammers and a Warding staff would slaughter anything TH/SS termies slaughter, but more, whilst probably taking less casualties (unless they get unlucky and lose the Staff early).

And about the Rending. Sure, it's a 1/6 chance to rend per hit, but if you get 4 hits, that's over a 50% chance to get at least one rend, and the rest of the hits still wound. I mean, against anything with a T value, the Psycannon is better than a lascannon, 2+ save or not. And against even AV 14 vehicles, the Psycannon is a lot better at both killing by HP and by getting a destroyed result.

But ok, I know my whining wont change anything, I just wanted to point out that their apparent weakness to Ap2 weapons in close combat is only a weakness because people made their units with 5ed in mind. They have all the tools to totally dominate like the TH/SS termies did, and for about the same cost, and all the while doing it better.
I mean, if you factor in the cost of upgrades, neither PA GKs nor Termie GKs cost much more than for example CSM or SM. I have often been outnumbered by GKs with my CSM, though we tend to be the about same size (unless I include a large blob of cultists), so saying GKs have some sort of lack of numbers is just silly. And I don't use cult CSM either, just the bog standard CSM, (the cheap ones!), so those who have a God-theme will most likely be severely outnumbered by GKs. Just saying.

They have the same numbers as other MEQs, with the difference that they have much better shooting and close combat.

What have made them more manageable in 6ed is the increased difficulty in getting into close combat. This means shooting plays a larger part of battles, and the brokenness of GK shooting is not as bad as the brokenness of their close combat, though GK shooting is still much more brutal point for point than SM or SW shooting.

Fingers
01-05-2013, 15:22
The reason TH/SS terminators are better than GK Terminators is because even with that fancy 2++ save in cc, you are likely to be shot and killed before it comes into play. This isnt an issue with TH/SS terminators, as they are getting their 3++ no matter what. I will say that a 5 man squad of each, in cc, the TH/SS squad wins at least 70% of those fights.

Konovalev
01-05-2013, 17:49
You have to realize that doesn't hold up, when you glance at tournament listings.

Or maybe Grey Knights just attract all the 'pro' players.. :shifty:

More likely they attract people who want to paint and field an army with the least time investment possible in a tourney. GK offer low model count, and since they're Imperial, they have all the cheese Imperials get. Along with having a high degree of model parts commonality with the various flavors of space marine, which means second hand models and parts are that much cheaper and easier to come by.

For now though it seems their stigma still blinds many of the warseer community.

Mánagarmr
02-05-2013, 00:13
More likely they attract people who want to paint and field an army with the least time investment possible in a tourney. GK offer low model count, and since they're Imperial, they have all the cheese Imperials get. Along with having a high degree of model parts commonality with the various flavors of space marine, which means second hand models and parts are that much cheaper and easier to come by.

For now though it seems their stigma still blinds many of the warseer community.

No marine variant really struggles to be low model count. If it were just that Grey Knights were just the easiest to paint, or that the models were easier to assemble, there might be something to this 'theory'; but it's not the case. People pick Grey Knights because they're the most competitive- or were, until Necrons edged them out for first place.

Stigma doesn't come into it- common sense does.

3eland
02-05-2013, 01:56
No marine variant really struggles to be low model count. If it were just that Grey Knights were just the easiest to paint, or that the models were easier to assemble, there might be something to this 'theory'; but it's not the case. People pick Grey Knights because they're the most competitive- or were, until Necrons edged them out for first place.

Stigma doesn't come into it- common sense does.

I picked Grey Knight because they looked the coolest of the 40k races (besides my nid collection). I like to pick my armies based on fluff and appearance.

Mánagarmr
02-05-2013, 01:59
I picked Grey Knight because they looked the coolest of the 40k races (besides my nid collection). I like to pick my armies based on fluff and appearance.

I'm glad you enjoy them- but rarely is 'fluff and appearance' the motivation for tournament gamers.

3eland
02-05-2013, 02:12
I'm glad you enjoy them- but rarely is 'fluff and appearance' the motivation for tournament gamers.

Ah yes I agree with that lol

lordreaven448
02-05-2013, 04:06
Still curb stomp daemons though.

Chapters Unwritten
02-05-2013, 04:28
I am pretty sure they designed thhis army for the hardcore tournament fans. Think about it: easy to make decent lists, easy as hell to paint, expensive...

Bartali
02-05-2013, 07:22
GK aren't as good in sixth because :-

1. 6th ed Missions. More objectives and more missions that use objectives. Vehicles can't contest, and scoring troops have to disembark. This effectively killed Paladin and/or Henchmen builds
2. Loldrakes. A Baleflamer kills a 20pt Strike on a 2,3,4,5,6 just the same as it kills a 5pt Guardsman.

Excessus
02-05-2013, 07:38
GK aren't as good in sixth because :-

1. 6th ed Missions. More objectives and more missions that use objectives. Vehicles can't contest, and scoring troops have to disembark. This effectively killed Paladin and/or Henchmen builds
2. Loldrakes. A Baleflamer kills a 20pt Strike on a 2,3,4,5,6 just the same as it kills a 5pt Guardsman.
We know, we aren't saying they are just as good as in 5th, we are saying that they are still very good! Yes 6th nerfed them a little bit, but they were high up to start with. If you feel you are loosing a lot with GK you shoud probably consider switching over to 6th ed builds. All armies have changed their builds in this edition, GK is not an exception...

Bartali
02-05-2013, 07:52
We know, we aren't saying they are just as good as in 5th, we are saying that they are still very good! Yes 6th nerfed them a little bit, but they were high up to start with. If you feel you are loosing a lot with GK you shoud probably consider switching over to 6th ed builds. All armies have changed their builds in this edition, GK is not an exception...

I don't play GK

SamaNagol
02-05-2013, 12:29
GK with or as allies are however awesome-sauce

Just don't expect your 5th list to be just as good. That's all

lantzkev
02-05-2013, 14:10
they are good, they have little weaknesses and do nothing badly. They can't shoot past 24inches to save their lives. The only things they've really got going for them above other space marine armies are paladins, which are just cool, but lack the good load outs like others, dreadknights with their 30inch teleport (and you pay dearly for it all), and their grenades. Which only the psychotroke is unique.

Every other space marine army has things they do better than space marines, and few if any have weaknesses. To complain about grey knights these days should be to complain about space marines in general, they are all equal, it's just the play style that revolves around em.

KhornateLord
02-05-2013, 14:58
they are good, they have little weaknesses and do nothing badly. They can't shoot past 24inches to save their lives. The only things they've really got going for them above other space marine armies are paladins, which are just cool, but lack the good load outs like others, dreadknights with their 30inch teleport (and you pay dearly for it all), and their grenades. Which only the psychotroke is unique.

Every other space marine army has things they do better than space marines, and few if any have weaknesses. To complain about grey knights these days should be to complain about space marines in general, they are all equal, it's just the play style that revolves around em.

Rubbish.
For 20pts per model you get a stormbolter armed force weapon meq psyker. Chaos pays 16pts for a ATSKNFless, more expensive grey hunter squad without counter assault.

In the 24-12" bracket, per point gks dish out serious pain. Closer and they start to lose out, until they hit melee. But hey, they have assault guns. Name a troops choice of meq that outranges them with a non heavy?

Konovalev
02-05-2013, 15:08
Rubbish.
For 20pts per model you get a stormbolter armed force weapon meq psyker. Chaos pays 16pts for a ATSKNFless, more expensive grey hunter squad without counter assault.

In the 24-12" bracket, per point gks dish out serious pain. Closer and they start to lose out, until they hit melee. But hey, they have assault guns. Name a troops choice of meq that outranges them with a non heavy?

Name a troop choice of an meq that can take a free rhino that moves faster than any other rhino, or free droppod, or can have have jump packs, has close combat weapons, can take melta, and has easy access to feel no pain.

TheDoctor
02-05-2013, 15:14
Name a troop choice of an meq that can take a free rhino that moves faster than any other rhino, or free droppod, or can have have jump packs, has close combat weapons, can take melta, and has easy access to feel no pain.

You mean the ones that are stuck with 12" range pistols? And if they lose their "free" rhino, get to footslog it (with said 12" range guns). And are outfought in close combat by grey knights, who can either wound them easier or take away said feel no pain?

Chapters Unwritten
02-05-2013, 15:24
Or strike before them with AP3, don't forget that one. :)

The Grey Knight is head and shoulders above any basic marine. I don't have a problem with this at all, but I generally dislike the fact that in other books many other things don't get quite the same balance. I'm of the opinion that virtually everything that is supposed to be a "marine +1" should cost around the same as a GK accordingly.

Konovalev
02-05-2013, 15:30
You mean the ones that are stuck with 12" range pistols? And if they lose their "free" rhino, get to footslog it (with said 12" range guns). And are outfought in close combat by grey knights, who can either wound them easier or take away said feel no pain?

Ah, but where is the GK's Baal predator? Where is GK's cheap FNP access? Where are their storm shields? Where is GK's deepstriking land raider? Where is their blendertron dreadnought? As psykers surely GK have a dreadnought capable of casting right? And what about GK's assault unit that can assault on deepstrike for which it only scatters 1d6 where is that?

It's almost as if these other armies have their own special abilities.

Chapters Unwritten
02-05-2013, 16:53
Sounds like somebody gets his butt kicked in by Blood Angels a lot... :-)

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Israfael
02-05-2013, 16:57
Ah, but where is the GK's Baal predator? Where is GK's cheap FNP access? Where are their storm shields? Where is GK's deepstriking land raider? Where is their blendertron dreadnought? As psykers surely GK have a dreadnought capable of casting right? And what about GK's assault unit that can assault on deepstrike for which it only scatters 1d6 where is that?

It's almost as if these other armies have their own special abilities.

The things that make you 'different', also make your army obscenely powerful in comparison to most marine variants.

You're fielding an entire army of librarians, who have a monstrous creature, and can take what is essentially Guard-like support before allies were even introduced. You get psychic bullet upgrades that make your guns superior, you hit like a marine but faster than most special characters, and have specialized toys that destroy psykers and daemons with ease.

People constantly complain about the Heldrake, because it makes a 3+ mediocre- that's what your entire army does.


To complain about grey knights these days should be to complain about space marines in general, they are all equal, it's just the play style that revolves around em.

Black Templars would care to have a word with you about all marine codices being absolutely 'equal'.

Konovalev
02-05-2013, 17:49
Sounds like somebody gets his butt kicked in by Blood Angels a lot... :-)
No, I just proved a point: This is a GK whine thread. Where even trying to bring up other powerful armies gets overlooked in favor of more whining from people who I can only assume get their butts kicked in by GK a lot right?


The things that make you 'different', also make your army obscenely powerful in comparison to most marine variants.

You're fielding an entire army of librarians, who have a monstrous creature, and can take what is essentially Guard-like support before allies were even introduced. You get psychic bullet upgrades that make your guns superior, you hit like a marine but faster than most special characters, and have specialized toys that destroy psykers and daemons with ease.

People constantly complain about the Heldrake, because it makes a 3+ mediocre- that's what your entire army does..
Last I checked GK had marine stats just like all other marines, and that means I4. But you're talking about halberds right? It sure is convenient to just assume wargear is being taken as it suits your point. Fighting Terminators? GK units are armed with hammers and staves. Fighting marines? GK units are armed with halberds. And unless these are slow expensive terminators, you're also losing the psycannon/flamer. So which is it? If you try to do all of the above you're going to have a woefully undermanned army that will get ravaged by heavy weapons and plasma.

Psychic bullet upgrades cost points. Much like meltaguns and missile launchers do. Speaking of, Grey knight marines can't take either. And let's not forget free missiles launchers for vanilla marines, and splitfire heavy weapons for Space Wolf devastators.

Fingers
02-05-2013, 17:55
Yep all of the "Special" Marines have their own little bonuses. GK are solid, but can easily be killed by the other Chapters as much as they kill. Ive always thought BA were the most powerful Marine Dex, followed by GK then SW. I guess cause I dont spam LongFangs which are apparently the end all be all. I faced 10 Long Fangs the other day. They had an ADL they were camped behind. 1 Doom Scythe killed them. /shrug

Like I said, I still think GK are tough, but not as Broken as they are claimed to be. Maybe I havent faced the broken lists.

Israfael
02-05-2013, 18:13
No, I just proved a point: This is a GK whine thread.

Started by a Grey Knight player, trying to convince people that your army is supposedly in a bad place now. :rolleyes:


Last I checked GK had marine stats just like all other marines, and that means I4. But you're talking about halberds right? It sure is convenient to just assume wargear is being taken as it suits your point. Fighting Terminators? GK units are armed with hammers and staves. Fighting marines? GK units are armed with halberds. And unless these are slow expensive terminators, you're also losing the psycannon/flamer. So which is it? If you try to do all of the above you're going to have a woefully undermanned army that will get ravaged by heavy weapons and plasma.

Psychic bullet upgrades cost points. Much like meltaguns and missile launchers do. Speaking of, Grey knight marines can't take either. And let's not forget free missiles launchers for vanilla marines, and splitfire heavy weapons for Space Wolf devastators.

Do you really want to go the 'our wargear is expensive' route, when you already got burned on the staves price? I do have the codex at hand, you know.

Craftworld
02-05-2013, 18:17
Grey Knights are still top-tier cheese. They just aren't as cheesy now.

Menthak
02-05-2013, 18:29
The way I look at it, is to compare the costs of a vanilla marine to a vanilla grey knight, check the points cost difference, then pretend that the point difference was an upgrade for the marine, does it seem cheesy?

(I don't actually know the answer to this question, but it's the way I look at units (If they have a very similar counterpart)

Ssilmath
02-05-2013, 18:32
The way I look at it, is to compare the costs of a vanilla marine to a vanilla grey knight, check the points cost difference, then pretend that the point difference was an upgrade for the marine, does it seem cheesy?

(I don't actually know the answer to this question, but it's the way I look at units (If they have a very similar counterpart)

Not even counting things like the benefits of being Psykers, or any other upgrades, Grey Knights are considerably discounted. A strike squad member costs 14 points less than a Tactical Marine with a Power Sword and Storm Bolter, if I am remembering GK prices correctly (Not at home atm)

Grenzstein
02-05-2013, 19:04
Do you really want to go the 'our wargear is expensive' route, when you already got burned on the staves price? I do have the codex at hand, you know.

It's entirely possible that he's been playing Grey Knights so long, that he does genuinely consider the cost of certain wargear high. :shifty:

Konovalev
02-05-2013, 19:52
Started by a Grey Knight player, trying to convince people that your army is supposedly in a bad place now. :rolleyes:
Not in a bad place, just not the game breaking hegemon some people seem to think they are. Resist the urge to exaggerate things to try and support your point. :rolleyes:



Do you really want to go the 'our wargear is expensive' route, when you already got burned on the staves price? I do have the codex at hand, you know.
Burned? Are you trying to tell me staves are cheap? Do you also have Codex Space Marines? Care to compare them to the cost of storm shields? Want to tell me how much Terminators pay for their storm shield in CSM? I take it you're an Imperial player? Tau could dream of their shield generators matching storm shields. And Chaos Space Marines? As far as I remember their only purchasable invulnerable is a 5+.

TheDoctor
02-05-2013, 20:06
Ah, but where is the GK's Baal predator? Where is GK's cheap FNP access? Where are their storm shields? Where is GK's deepstriking land raider? Where is their blendertron dreadnought? As psykers surely GK have a dreadnought capable of casting right? And what about GK's assault unit that can assault on deepstrike for which it only scatters 1d6 where is that?

It's almost as if these other armies have their own special abilities.

-Unnecessary. The basic flamer for Grey Knights is S6 AP4. And yet I have yet to see one, because people take psycannons over them (if that tells you anything). The closest equivalent would probably be Interceptors or Dreadknights, which can teleport pretty much wherever you want if you have half a brain. Sure, they don't have AP3, but they don't have to worry about the problems of outflanking or side and rear armor weaknesses
-FNP got nerfed, and the dude giving it can be sniped out much easier now. Plus, it bunches up armies, and templates and pie plates love that. And since you bring up special dreadnoughts, they also compete with said special dreadnoughts.
-A lack of storm shields? Oh no, whatever will they do! That point has been discussed and disproved earlier in the thread (besides, blood angels have to pay for theirs)
-Gimmick
-A melee/short ranged dreadnought? Wow, its almost like using my meltaguns/fire dragons doesn't even require my brain.
-GK's do have psyker dreadnoughts
-Also gimmicky, also extremely expensive. They get even more expensive if you want them to have any sort of special weapons (oh, and grey knights slaughter vanguard vets just like they slaughter other power-armored dudes)

Israfael
02-05-2013, 20:20
Not in a bad place, just not the game breaking hegemon some people seem to think they are. Resist the urge to exaggerate things to try and support your point. :rolleyes:

Let's not backpedal now. You and lantzkev have been lamenting about your codices 'big hit', and being 'the same as all other marines'. It may have started as such, but the crying has been amplified significantly on the part of Grey Knight players who are unable to see the forest for the trees.


Burned? Are you trying to tell me staves are cheap? Do you also have Codex Space Marines? Care to compare them to the cost of storm shields? Want to tell me how much Terminators pay for their storm shield in CSM? I take it you're an Imperial player? Tau could dream of their shield generators matching storm shields. And Chaos Space Marines? As far as I remember their only purchasable invulnerable is a 5+.

When the vast majority of your no-brainer upgrades are either free or comically undercosted, twenty points doesn't seem an outrageous amount of points to pay for an archon quality invulnerable save.

Konovalev
02-05-2013, 20:26
grey knights slaughter vanguard vets just like they slaughter other power-armored dudes
So "they die like any other space marine" in reference to vanguards is an acceptable statement only as long as it is never applied to GK(for which it is also true)? That sounds like a double standard. But if we can just dismiss assaulting after a 1d6 deepstrike as a gimmick, what isn't a gimmick? Podding melta is that a gimmick? What about supporting fire? Coil whips? Mind shackle scarabs? I'm having a hard time understanding why some people dismiss good abilities other armies have.


Let's not backpedal now. You and lantzkev have been lamenting about your codices 'big hit', and being 'the same as all other marines'. It may have started as such, but the crying has been amplified significantly on the part of Grey Knight players who are unable to see the forest for the trees.

When the vast majority of your no-brainer upgrades are either free or comically undercosted, twenty points doesn't seem an outrageous amount of points to pay for an archon quality invulnerable save.
If you refuse to differentiate between my posts and the posts of others, you're entitled to be wrong.

Israfael
02-05-2013, 20:39
Dark Eldar, Guard, Tau, Chaos SM, and DA can wreck GK pretty handily.


Warding staves are hideously expensive.


More likely they attract people who want to paint and field an army with the least time investment possible in a tourney.


Name a troop choice of an meq that can take a free rhino that moves faster than any other rhino, or free droppod, or can have have jump packs, has close combat weapons, can take melta, and has easy access to feel no pain.


Last I checked GK had marine stats just like all other marines, and that means I4.

This is you, correct? This gentleman who is claiming that Grey Knights are handily beaten by the majority of forces- and that they're essentially just normal marines with their own unique options?


If you refuse to differentiate between my posts and the posts of others, you're entitled to be wrong.

If you refuse to acknowledge that you're the absolute top-tier competitively, you're going to see a lot more posts like mine correcting you.

Konovalev
02-05-2013, 22:13
This is you, correct? This gentleman who is claiming that Grey Knights are handily beaten by the majority of forces- and that they're essentially just normal marines with their own unique options?Have you read those codicis? Have you seen the kind of firepower they can bring to burn down GK lists? I mentioned the marine stats because you said GK "hit faster" So I'll repeat it since you didn't understand. GK are I4 just like the other marine flavors, so they're not faster unless you mean to say halberds. If you mean they walk or drive faster you're downright wrong because BA vehicles move faster and they walk just like other infantry walks. If you mean teleport shunting, an entire 2 units can do that, hardly reason to say GK are faster. GK have their tricks and gimmicks, so do SW, BA, and most every other codex out there. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying to whine and complain about GK. And conveniently ignoring the fact that Imperial armies in general (sans SoB, GW appears to have abandoned them) get all sorts of neat little extra's that xenos armies don't get.


If you refuse to acknowledge that you're the absolute top-tier competitively, you're going to see a lot more posts like mine correcting you.
Here it is right here. "you" "you're". You've tied me to GK like they're my army, and that's the source of your hostility. You've made me a target for all your misgivings with the GK codex. This is why you misrepresent my posts, and overlook the posts of some others who share my opinion.
I never said GK were bottom tier, or bad, or any other gross exaggeration. So let's reiterate my opinion: GK are still in the top tier alongside IG, SW, Necrons, and possibly Tau depending on how they turn out. Furthermore GK are not as good as they were last edition, and are not deserving of the ignorant rancor they receive.

Ssilmath
02-05-2013, 22:22
Wow, victim mentality much? Trying to state "They're just the same as other Marines" is about as self serving a lie as you can possibly get. No matter how you try to spin it, Grey Knights are Marines +2 at a Marines +1 price tag. They have versatility unmatched amongst MEQ's, shooting unmatched among MEQ's and melee unmatched among MEQ's. Their power options outstrip all of the others too. Trying to convince anybody otherwise is impossible, and you are delusional if you think otherwise yourself.

TheDoctor
02-05-2013, 22:47
Vanguard vets bein g able to assault after deepstrike is gimmicky in my book because it is either going to be awesomely awesome, or its going to go terribly wrong, with very little middle ground.

And your tone is coming across as a king being demoted to a baron, and then telling all the peasants to stop whining about your still obscene wealth, because "look at all ive lost"
That or ive been watching too much Game of Thrones.

SamaNagol
02-05-2013, 22:54
lol@ a 50-90pt Priest being 'cheap FnP' access. FnP is pretty trash on basic models now compared to in 5th. I would MUCH rather take a 4+ save against massed anti-infantry shooting than get that FnP roll against Plasma etc. If you are shooting at my troops with your AP1/AP2 weapons you arent shooting my nasty stuff like Mephiston or Furiosos.

Grey Knights are really good. Paladins are still incredibly difficult to deal with. Dreadknights became brilliant. Dreadnoughts are still very good for their points despite them being less survivable. That just means you take the normal ones, not elites.

In competitive 40k Necrons then Grey Knights are at the top of the tree. IG are at the top of the allies tree, unless it is a FW allowed tournament.

KhornateLord
02-05-2013, 23:05
Name a troop choice of an meq that can take a free rhino that moves faster than any other rhino, or free droppod, or can have have jump packs, has close combat weapons, can take melta, and has easy access to feel no pain.

A GK player is arguing that BA are unfairly powerful?
You are kidding right. I mean I know BA rhino rush is topping all the tournaments right now, but frankly that's ridiculous.
Their rhino is "free" at 50pts?
BA pay for rhinos, drop pods, assault marines are cheap but they aren't exactly game winners, their tacticals don't have bolt pistols and close combat weapons so I'm not sure what supposed super powered benefits they are getting.

In contrast, a squad of grey knights will shoot a BA tactical squad at 24 - 12" range. It will certainly outfight one, can pass one psychic check to disable their FNP save. And is even more powerful against an assault squad.

A rhino tactical squad from codex BA will set you back 230pts (tactical has melta and missile launcher).
For the same price, you can get a strike squad with a psycannon and psybolts.

Statistically, the GK squad is absolutely superior, except at extreme range where the BA squad will struggle to do anything decisive.


No, I just proved a point: This is a GK whine thread. Where even trying to bring up other powerful armies gets overlooked in favor of more whining from people who I can only assume get their butts kicked in by GK a lot right?


Last I checked GK had marine stats just like all other marines, and that means I4. But you're talking about halberds right? It sure is convenient to just assume wargear is being taken as it suits your point. Fighting Terminators? GK units are armed with hammers and staves. Fighting marines? GK units are armed with halberds. And unless these are slow expensive terminators, you're also losing the psycannon/flamer. So which is it? If you try to do all of the above you're going to have a woefully undermanned army that will get ravaged by heavy weapons and plasma.

Psychic bullet upgrades cost points. Much like meltaguns and missile launchers do. Speaking of, Grey knight marines can't take either. And let's not forget free missiles launchers for vanilla marines, and splitfire heavy weapons for Space Wolf devastators.

In a firefight in 40k, psybolts are better than a meltagun per point of cost. Even against terminators. A meltagun is only better against vehicles.

The fact of the matter is that your basic troops choice is statistically waaaay tooooo cheap in points. And points is the fundamental currency of the game. 22pts per model (including psybolts) for what you get is amazing.

As a chaos player, I can take plain power weapons, only in an elites choice, in limited numbers, at 15pts a pop.
Those models are 18pts base, no psyker, no super grenades, no force weapons, no storm bolters. Their benefit is that they have more attacks, but this is negated by the fact you'll save 60% of my wounds, and I'll save none of yours.

There are other better troops, like grey hunters, necrons are arguably more broken, but GK are the top tier marine chapter. So don't pretend that you are scared of blood angels.

There's a reason that grey knights place as well as they do. Play against some mates, and swap armies. Use chaos, daemons, eldar, orks, hell, use BA against your own GK force played by someone else, and then get back to me.

Grndhog89
03-05-2013, 00:04
You're going to tell me a squad of GH is better than a GKSS? Lol

Death Company
03-05-2013, 00:26
A GK player is arguing that BA are unfairly powerful? You are kidding right.

I don't think he is.. :wtf:

KhornateLord
03-05-2013, 00:29
I don't think he is.. :wtf:

Then who is he referring to in the bits I quoted?
Vanilla Marines?

He refers to fast rhinos, and assault marine troops.

Death Company
03-05-2013, 00:43
Then who is he referring to in the bits I quoted?
Vanilla Marines?

He refers to fast rhinos, and assault marine troops.

I was referring to the kidding part.

KhornateLord
03-05-2013, 00:55
I was referring to the kidding part.

Oh lol.
Yeah, it's scary isn't it.

I feel bad for the GK/Necron players who don't play cheese lists. Kinda like the chaos guys who aren't all helldrakes, plaguemarines and noisemarines I guess.

KhornateLord
03-05-2013, 01:08
So "they die like any other space marine" in reference to vanguards is an acceptable statement only as long as it is never applied to GK(for which it is also true)? That sounds like a double standard. But if we can just dismiss assaulting after a 1d6 deepstrike as a gimmick, what isn't a gimmick? Podding melta is that a gimmick? What about supporting fire? Coil whips? Mind shackle scarabs? I'm having a hard time understanding why some people dismiss good abilities other armies have.

Let's just assume that a vanguard squad is a big problem for you.
The cost of a vanguard with power weapon, is 35pts.
That's nearly double the cost of a grey knight in power armour.

For each turn they are in reserve, every point in that squad is doing nothing.
Once they land, they will effect what, one squad? They strike at the same time as base GKs. You will kill them in melee while they are killing you. Sure, it will pay off for them. They are twice the cost, and arguably three times as good in melee. But with the joys of 6th ed, if they finish of the squad, you can shoot them. And they are an expensive, non-scoring unit. If you don't kit them out at 35pts each, then they are the same cost as a GK in power armour, but only about as good in melee. With smite factored in, or instant death against them if they have FNP, your basic troops choice deals with them very well. You will grind them down in a point efficient manner.

Now look at troop choices for other armies.
How well will they fare? And this is the thing with grey knights, they are supreme generalists that are undercosted. Because each of your squads, which can go toe to toe in most vanguards that you are every likely to see (LOL, IF YOU EVER SEE ONE) while at the same time not compromising on midrange firepower.

Of course, you are no doubt going to cry "vanguard OP", and reference their massive use in top tier tournament armies? If you are struggling with BA, then you are probably building your GK wrong.

Oh, and you can avoid this entirely with other options like Coteaz blowing seven layers of hell out of them.

SamaNagol
03-05-2013, 10:48
BA Troops are toilet tier. When the new C:SM book comes out with 14pt Tacs and bonuses, BA will arguably be the worst Marine equivalent troops in the game.

The thing with GKs is they can perform above average at almost every task they can be asked to do. At a points cost which is not prohibitive for that utility.

If you could take a power weapon for every Grey Hunter for only 7pts a model, everyone would think that was broken as heck. But Grey Knight Strike Squads are even better!

Strike Squads are very good, and they have EXCELLENT units to back them up.

totgeboren
03-05-2013, 12:09
I think I know what makes people annoyed at the GKs. They are a bit like Cartman in South Park when they were playing superhero ninjas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPA9bKz2meI

The way Cartman is trying to play is how it feels like to the rest of the community.
That is not to say we can't all have fun and play together, but the GK codex does put up an extra challenge to the player if he/she want their friends to enjoy the battle too.

MagicHat
03-05-2013, 12:53
I believe that Konovalevs point was that BA have stuff that the other MEQ don't have, not that BA is a though matchup for GK.
At least I hope so. Only FNP and the blenderdread is somewhat useful against GK.


Let's just assume that a vanguard squad is a big problem for you.
The cost of a vanguard with power weapon, is 35pts.
That's nearly double the cost of a grey knight in power armour.


45 points if they carries a jump pack actually.
I would never wield vanguards versus GK though. The enemy troop are either Terminators that will likely outmelee them, GK SS with warpquake or purifiers, again getting outmelee'd.


lol@ a 50-90pt Priest being 'cheap FnP' access. FnP is pretty trash on basic models now compared to in 5th. I would MUCH rather take a 4+ save against massed anti-infantry shooting than get that FnP roll against Plasma etc.


I would say it is cheap. A sergeant costs around 20 points, then 30 points for 6" FNP/FC is pretty good compared to other FNP sources.
The local GK player used to be annoyed that I got FNP in melee in 6th, thinking it was strictly better, but he accepted that he did kick my ass in shooting easier and could still negate the FNP in melee.

Konovalev
03-05-2013, 14:21
I believe that Konovalevs point was that BA have stuff that the other MEQ don't have, not that BA is a though matchup for GK.
At least I hope so. Only FNP and the blenderdread is somewhat useful against GK.
Yes, that's what I was saying before the hate train stopped to pick up more passengers. That here we have other marine flavors with things GK don't have, so when people say "GK has this and no one else does waaaaaah", they're being ignorant because every marine faction has their special snowflake items. These people, who I suspect are imperial players, look at GK like they're some lonely spike on the power level chart. When in reality, GK sits among the other imperial armies all of which get things like cheap transports, combat squadding/platoons, frag grenades, krak grenades, storm shields, etc.

lantzkev
03-05-2013, 14:55
let's compare some things.

I don't play other space marines but let's look at stats vs points k?

Grey knight strike squad stock with psybolt and full 10 man squad. 220 pts with 10 storm bolter shots at str 5.
only difference in stock, brother hood of psykers mastery 1, with chaos icon inhibitor spell or hammer hands, or insta kill after unsaved wounds.

let's start by comparing the base line troops eh, tell me what your chapter that's under developed compared to the "absolute top tier" grey knights are, let's do line item comparison by those that play them and do it well.

3eland
03-05-2013, 15:08
let's compare some things.

I don't play other space marines but let's look at stats vs points k?

Grey knight strike squad stock with psybolt and full 10 man squad. 220 pts with 10 storm bolter shots at str 5.
only difference in stock, brother hood of psykers mastery 1, with chaos icon inhibitor spell or hammer hands, or insta kill after unsaved wounds.

let's start by comparing the base line troops eh, tell me what your chapter that's under developed compared to the "absolute top tier" grey knights are, let's do line item comparison by those that play them and do it well.

I play GK and a few friends play other space marine armies and this actually came up once so we compared basic stats before purchasing upgrades:

Grey Knight Strike Squad Marine- 20 points, comes with power armour, storm bolter, force sword, frag/krak grenades, psyk-out grenades, 2 psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Brotherhood

Space Wolves Grey Hunter Marine - 15 points, comes with power armour, close combat weapon, bolter, bolter pistol, frag/krak grenades, acute senses, counter attack, ATSKNF

Dark Angel Tactical Squad Marine - 14 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, grim resolve, ATSKNF, Combat Squads

Chaos Space Marine - 13 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades



I don't know the stats of any other armies however

Dylius
03-05-2013, 15:52
Yes, that's what I was saying before the hate train stopped to pick up more passengers.

I suspect that this has more to do with the attitude you seem to be employing:


[...] You're misinterpreting what I'm saying to whine and complain about GK. And conveniently ignoring the fact that Imperial armies in general (sans SoB, GW appears to have abandoned them) get all sorts of neat little extra's that xenos armies don't get.

Here it is right here. "you" "you're". You've tied me to GK like they're my army, and that's the source of your hostility. You've made me a target for all your misgivings with the GK codex. This is why you misrepresent my posts, and overlook the posts of some others who share my opinion. [... They] are not deserving of the ignorant rancor they receive.


[...] "GK has this and no one else does waaaaaah", they're being ignorant because every marine faction has their special snowflake items. [...]


[...] For now though it seems their stigma still blinds many of the warseer community.

Throughout this thread you've called everyone who disagrees with you ignorant (multiple times), knowingly deceptive and blind. You've mocked them and dismissed them as whiners - causing them to respond in a similar manner, to be fair.

Now, understand that I have never played with or against Grey Knights, and have barely glanced into the codex, so can make absolutely no argument on their power level. I'm simply trying to show you that you're not going to win people over with these tactics.

Israfael
03-05-2013, 16:13
I'm simply trying to show you that you're not going to win people over with these tactics.

While his tone is rather abrasive, that isn't why he won't win anyone over- it's his argument.

Dylius
03-05-2013, 16:16
While his tone is rather abrasive, that isn't why he won't win anyone over- it's his argument.

Perhaps. I can't really comment.

Konovalev
03-05-2013, 16:56
I suspect that this has more to do with the attitude you seem to be employing:

Throughout this thread you've called everyone who disagrees with you ignorant (multiple times), knowingly deceptive and blind. You've mocked them and dismissed them as whiners - causing them to respond in a similar manner, to be fair.

Now, understand that I have never played with or against Grey Knights, and have barely glanced into the codex, so can make absolutely no argument on their power level. I'm simply trying to show you that you're not going to win people over with these tactics.
No only those posters who paint me as the target of their ire and refuse to look at the GK codex objectively. If you can't set aside your bias for a codex in order to give it serious thought, I'm sorry but that is ignorant. And as I've said, I continue to bring up examples of other codicis, and they continue to be dismissed without explanation or ignored outright.

There's also this continuing misunderstanding that I'm trying to label GK as a non-top tier army, I'm not. I can only guess this misunderstanding to be the result of said bias.

lantzkev
03-05-2013, 18:01
I think what people will find is every space marine army is "top tier" that they are all innately without much in the way of flaw and the difference is what they do well and cost effectiveness.

I thought it funny earlier someone that pointed out the teleporting fast attack troop slot... despite the fact that they aren't worth it point wise really.

Excessus
03-05-2013, 18:30
I think what people will find is every space marine army is "top tier" that they are all innately without much in the way of flaw and the difference is what they do well and cost effectiveness.

I thought it funny earlier someone that pointed out the teleporting fast attack troop slot... despite the fact that they aren't worth it point wise really.
They cost as much as warp talons if I remember correctly...and I know which I would like to have more in my army...

Excessus
03-05-2013, 18:31
I think what people will find is every space marine army is "top tier" that they are all innately without much in the way of flaw and the difference is what they do well and cost effectiveness.

I thought it funny earlier someone that pointed out the teleporting fast attack troop slot... despite the fact that they aren't worth it point wise really.
They cost as much as warp talons if I remember correctly...and I know which I would like to have more in my army...

Evol Intent
04-05-2013, 05:36
No only those posters who paint me as the target of their ire and refuse to look at the GK codex objectively. If you can't set aside your bias for a codex in order to give it serious thought, I'm sorry but that is ignorant. And as I've said, I continue to bring up examples of other codicis, and they continue to be dismissed without explanation or ignored outright.

Examples of what, though? You keep making strange references to other Astartes codices, seeking 'strengths' that would make them comparable in ranking power to Grey Knights.. and they've all been pretty mediocre examples. Like fast rhinos; really? Or how about where you complain how easily your stave-wielder can be sniped, and then immediately talk about how overpowered Sanguinary Priests are; color us confused.

Nobody is ignoring your examples, Konovalev- they're just relatively poor examples.

We get that Grey Knights have their own set of toys- they just happens to be leagues better than any other marine variants..

lantzkev
04-05-2013, 13:30
that's the thing they aren't leagues better. You keep saying this but you don't back it up at all. You could start by talking about one of these marine chapters that the grey knights are "leagues better" than and we can do a compare and contrast.

The thing I've noticed as the second we started that route... discussion died off and stopped. It's like facts might get in the way of your opinion.

Evol Intent
04-05-2013, 14:21
that's the thing they aren't leagues better. You keep saying this but you don't back it up at all. You could start by talking about one of these marine chapters that the grey knights are "leagues better" than and we can do a compare and contrast.

The thing I've noticed as the second we started that route... discussion died off and stopped. It's like facts might get in the way of your opinion.

It didn't 'die off'- you're ignoring said information. Since you're unable to scroll up, clearly, let me copy the information from mere posts above.



Grey Knight Strike Squad Marine- 20 points, comes with power armour, storm bolter, force sword, frag/krak grenades, psyk-out grenades, 2 psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Brotherhood
Space Wolves, Grey Hunter Marine - 15 points, comes with power armour, close combat weapon, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, acute senses, counter attack, ATSKNF
Dark Angel, Tactical Squad Marine - 14 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, grim resolve, ATSKNF, Combat Squads
Chaos Space Marine - 13 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades
'Blue Book' Tactical Space Marine - 16 points, comes with power armour, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, boltgun.



You are FOUR POINTS more than a 'Blue Book' tactical, and have a storm bolter, force sword, psyk-out grenades, two psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, brotherhood of psykers. Is this sinking in yet? One of your basic troops choices - who is considered meh for your book - is FOUR POINTS more expensive than a bare bones basic tactical, with an outrageous amount of extras.

Losing Command
04-05-2013, 15:24
The thing is with a decent GK army (no Coteaz, henchmen and all that crap) is that the fact that even a basic squad, with all upgrades to make it all-round, costs about as much points as a landraider, but often even more, means that you will most often have a relatively small army. And yes, for their points, GK can dish out a lot of damage compared to other individual units. But if you can hit them before they can hit you, their ability to disable your units drops drasticly. Every failed save may be 'only' 20 points, but one round of bad saves can means you lost the game. If you fail one morale check and that unit immidiatly runs of the board, you just lost + 250 points. In close combat they do indeed all have force weapons, but with 1 attack each, every missed attack hurts them a lot. Yes they have that funky grenade to make up for that, but there is no way that every unit in a GK army can have them. Everthing having psychic powers sounds overpowerd, untill you start rolling perils of the warp for every unit and lose all your justicars. Things like these make, when playing a GK only army, every failed diceroll feel really punishing. So while they are a strong army, and playing against them feels like a vertical uphill struggle, playing a GK army doesn't always feel like you will no matter what you do or what you roll.

Evol Intent
04-05-2013, 15:41
The thing is with a decent GK army (no Coteaz, henchmen and all that crap) is that the fact that even a basic squad, with all upgrades to make it all-round, costs about as much points as a landraider, but often even more, means that you will most often have a relatively small army. And yes, for their points, GK can dish out a lot of damage compared to other individual units. But if you can hit them before they can hit you, their ability to disable your units drops drasticly. Every failed save may be 'only' 20 points, but one round of bad saves can means you lost the game. If you fail one morale check and that unit immidiatly runs of the board, you just lost + 250 points. In close combat they do indeed all have force weapons, but with 1 attack each, every missed attack hurts them a lot. Yes they have that funky grenade to make up for that, but there is no way that every unit in a GK army can have them. Everthing having psychic powers sounds overpowerd, untill you start rolling perils of the warp for every unit and lose all your justicars. Things like these make, when playing a GK only army, every failed diceroll feel really punishing. So while they are a strong army, and playing against them feels like a vertical uphill struggle, playing a GK army doesn't always feel like you will no matter what you do or what you roll.

Poor rolling can lose the game for anyone; this is not a weakness exclusively found amongst Grey Knights. And as was stated before, 20 points is not an expensive investment considering what you're getting as standard.

ihavetoomuchminis
04-05-2013, 15:55
It didn't 'die off'- you're ignoring said information. Since you're unable to scroll up, clearly, let me copy the information from mere posts above.



Grey Knight Strike Squad Marine- 20 points, comes with power armour, storm bolter, force sword, frag/krak grenades, psyk-out grenades, 2 psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Brotherhood
Space Wolves, Grey Hunter Marine - 15 points, comes with power armour, close combat weapon, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, acute senses, counter attack, ATSKNF
Dark Angel, Tactical Squad Marine - 14 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, grim resolve, ATSKNF, Combat Squads
Chaos Space Marine - 13 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades
'Blue Book' Tactical Space Marine - 16 points, comes with power armour, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, boltgun.



You are FOUR POINTS more than a 'Blue Book' tactical, and have a storm bolter, force sword, psyk-out grenades, two psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, brotherhood of psykers. Is this sinking in yet? One of your basic troops choices - who is considered meh for your book - is FOUR POINTS more expensive than a bare bones basic tactical, with an outrageous amount of extras.

Couldn't agree more with this. That should be a sticky in everybody's mind.

A.T.
04-05-2013, 16:10
'Blue Book' Tactical Space Marine - 16 points, comes with power armour, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, boltgun.Nitpick - Vanilla marines cost the same as dark angel tacticals, they just have more of their points tied up in compulsory options. If/when their entry is brought in line with the DA book they will be the superior of the two thanks to a lack of stubborn (which hurts ATSKNF) and chapter tactics.

For what it's worth more gear/better stats does not always equal better unit - celestians for instance are only 2pts more expensive than dominions with several higher stats and a broader selection of gear, yet are a very very poor unit in comparison.

lantzkev
04-05-2013, 16:13
It didn't 'die off'- you're ignoring said information. Since you're unable to scroll up, clearly, let me copy the information from mere posts above.



Grey Knight Strike Squad Marine- 20 points, comes with power armour, storm bolter, force sword, frag/krak grenades, psyk-out grenades, 2 psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Brotherhood
Space Wolves, Grey Hunter Marine - 15 points, comes with power armour, close combat weapon, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, acute senses, counter attack, ATSKNF
Dark Angel, Tactical Squad Marine - 14 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, grim resolve, ATSKNF, Combat Squads
Chaos Space Marine - 13 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades
'Blue Book' Tactical Space Marine - 16 points, comes with power armour, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, boltgun.



You are FOUR POINTS more than a 'Blue Book' tactical, and have a storm bolter, force sword, psyk-out grenades, two psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, brotherhood of psykers. Is this sinking in yet? One of your basic troops choices - who is considered meh for your book - is FOUR POINTS more expensive than a bare bones basic tactical, with an outrageous amount of extras.

When a day goes by that no one addresses any actual points and only covers bickering about "you're stupid, no you're stupid" kind of point, I call that discussion dying down.

You're looking at a single models point value. Let's compare whole squads as they usually come (which is what I was attempting)

Full strike Squad 220pts. 10 members with psybolt upgrade. psychout grenades (really not a grenade that "swings" games except against other grey knights or the rare psyker unit) 10 str 5 storm bolter shots. max range 24inch, ap 3 force swords, Psyker lvl 1 brotherhood of psykers.

Whats a blood angel standard scoring unit? A space wolf, a space marine, a dark angel?

-edit-
By comparison the blue book marines are just over costed when you compare them with the space wolves, the dark angels, etc... pointing that we're 4pts more than "blue marines" when the blue marines cost 1-2pts more than others and get less is just a lame comparison.

Ssilmath
04-05-2013, 16:24
Ummm...20 Str 5 Storm Bolter shots, and you aren't even factoring in the weapon that has the same cost as an autocannon but with double the shots and Rending on top of it. Or the free Str 4 Assault 6 gun. Or AP3 weapons throughout. Or free Deep Strike. Or the perfect deep strike defense? Or a free +1 str in combat with a psychic check? You're going to tell me that's on par with a squad that costs 200 points to have a plasma gun, plasma cannon and single power weapon.

MagicHat
04-05-2013, 16:36
You are FOUR POINTS more than a 'Blue Book' tactical, and have a storm bolter, force sword, psyk-out grenades, two psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, brotherhood of psykers. Is this sinking in yet? One of your basic troops choices - who is considered meh for your book - is FOUR POINTS more expensive than a bare bones basic tactical, with an outrageous amount of extras.

10 man tactical squad with ML or MM plus plasma gun in a Rhino is 215, so 21.5 points for the 10 marines, counting the Rhino as an upgrade.

10 SS with psybolts and 2 psycannons in a Rhino: 280, o 28 points for the 10 marines, counting the Rhino as an upgrade.
So 6.5 points more then the vanilla marines.

The SS is more mobile with their shooting power, the special weapons more all-round capable, and the damage output in the 12-24" range is greater. They are also more capable in assault and can lock down a large area from deepstrikers.
7 wounds versus T4 before armour save with the stormbolters, 2 or 4 with the psycannons, depending on stationary or not.
Tacticals do 2.64 at long range, or 5.28 at rapidfire range. Plasma adds 0.54 or 1 wound, MM/ML does 0.13 or 0.54 depending on stationary or not.

In melee, the SS kills 2.5 marines (with Force activated) if charged by BA assault marines with FC/FNP, whom kills 3 marines back.
If the GK charge, the assault marines does 1.56 wounds, while the SS does 4.75 wounds (or 6.27 if the enemy marines don't have FNP).

EDIT
BA assault marines are 210 points with 2 meltaguns, or 225 if a PW is added. Priests are 90 points with a PW, but usually benefits 2 squads, so lets say that the BA assault marines are 24.5 points per marine.
As already noted, they barely wins in melee when charging, much less if the the GK SS gets 1 or 2 shooting phases plus overwatch.

A.T.
04-05-2013, 16:39
Whats a blood angel standard scoring unit? A space wolf, a space marine, a dark angel?Blood angels - 75pts plus vehicle for 5 men and a melta, because they can.
Wolves - 155pts for 10 and two special plus the cost of any cc perks and transport
DA/vanilla - 170 for 10, missile launcher and flamer. CC weapons extra.
Templars - 101 for 5 marines, lascannon, plasmagun

Fair bit of variety on offer.

Stacius
04-05-2013, 17:31
In all honesty I have always played Dark Angels, yet for a smll period of time (when they first came out) flirted with the grey knights. I have recently sold them to a friend. I decided this after beating my closest friends tournament list with 1500 of what I had. 10 terms, grand master, storm raven, vindicaire (which is an amazing long range gun the grey knights have access too) ten strikes. With upgrades they come in at 1500 roughly. I tabled him on 4. Played again, he saw 5 this game. Again, 4. His tourney list is BA mephy bomb.
Now, I'm not saying that Grey Knights are as good as they were in 5th, however they are still top tier. I don't think you can compare Dark Angels, and with Chaos you have the drake. Vindicaire on aegis with Icarus? You will hit. Grey knights have an answer to everything, yet, as I have stated to friends, it's when you start adding funky grenades and so many psychic powers that they start to get silly. Another friend of mine ran the henchman list, especially after reading that death cult come with two power weapons. Maces, and swords ahoy. Combo with tech marine with funky names and hammer hand.......
So, the biggest gripe with grey knights for me is, you can't build a bad army list from the codex. Seriously try. Make the worst list you can think of, play it properly, see how it does. For a true comparison do the same with all other codexes.

jackers
04-05-2013, 17:41
so, to answer the op: No, they are still a very good book, you just have to pay a bit more attention now.

MagicHat
04-05-2013, 17:44
So, the biggest gripe with grey knights for me is, you can't build a bad army list from the codex. Seriously try. Make the worst list you can think of, play it properly, see how it does. For a true comparison do the same with all other codexes.

Well, Coteaz and 6 squads of 12 banishers are 1180 points. Then add 2 squads of purgators with 4 psilencers each, 1460 points. This army would not worry anyone I believe.

Stacius
04-05-2013, 19:44
I also play daemons! That would worry me lol! You have six scoring units in there, great for objective based games. Coteaz is a great character, and purgators still chuck out a load of shots each. Yeah it's not great, but you still have forty points for upgrades.
As I said, it's hard too make a list that is really unviable.

3eland
04-05-2013, 19:44
When a day goes by that no one addresses any actual points and only covers bickering about "you're stupid, no you're stupid" kind of point, I call that discussion dying down.

You're looking at a single models point value. Let's compare whole squads as they usually come (which is what I was attempting)

Full strike Squad 220pts. 10 members with psybolt upgrade. psychout grenades (really not a grenade that "swings" games except against other grey knights or the rare psyker unit) 10 str 5 storm bolter shots. max range 24inch, ap 3 force swords, Psyker lvl 1 brotherhood of psykers.

Whats a blood angel standard scoring unit? A space wolf, a space marine, a dark angel?

-edit-
By comparison the blue book marines are just over costed when you compare them with the space wolves, the dark angels, etc... pointing that we're 4pts more than "blue marines" when the blue marines cost 1-2pts more than others and get less is just a lame comparison.

My friends and I also did this after we originally looked at base points, we decided to make a unit that would match the same points for a GKSS without upgrades:

10 Man Grey Knight Strike Squad: 200 points (this is without upgrades)

10 Man Dark Angel Tactical Squad: 200 points (Added Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, Veteran Seargant with Chainsword, Melta Bombs and a Plasma Pistol in upgrades)

10 Man Chaos Space Marine Squad: 200 points (Added Plasma Gun, Flamer, Close Combat Weapons, Mark of Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch OR Plasma Gun, Plasma Gun, Mark of Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Gift for Mutation in upgrades)

10 Man Grey Hunter Squad: 195 points (Added Plasma Gun, Plasma Gun, Power Sword, Banner OR 200 points: Meltagun, Meltagun, Power Fist, Mark of the Wulfen or Plasma Pistol in upgrades)

I don't have info on any other marine chapters sorry.

EDIT: Also it is hard to say exactly "how they usually come" as I equip them depending on what I want them to do and what army I am playing with (like halberds against marine armies). Usually it is ammo upgrade, two cannons, a hammer and halberds with the occasional stave (this has helped me so many times). At minimum I take two cannons, ammo upgrade and hammer, at maximum I take two cannons, hammer, ammo, stave and halberds. So my "Standard" loadout is 250 - 310 depending on how I want them equipped at the time.

lantzkev
04-05-2013, 20:11
I consider the 12 inch anti-deepstrike bubble nice, but it's not a game ender even for demons.

So out of the comparisons for stock marines we have other armies the same for less or more options for less/same. Capability for farther range.

So let's look at assault? We know that the Blood angels beat the space marines for these options,
Terminators? Pretty much every army has better options for survivability with storm shields. 2 wounds is certainly a plus, but it makes them expensive, and they still die a third of the time to str 8 ap 2 weapons.

Vehicles? dreadknight is the only thing unique worth talking about. Everyone else has a dreadnought that's better.

Coteaz? If you want guard like abilities in a leader and a troop or two just load up some allies and do it better. But I'll talk about this point, I love them for holding objectives, and they are good at it, but again, the way the work well are 10-12man units that are cheap to hold something, and usually around an aegis line. Anything else they get wasted at.

totgeboren
04-05-2013, 20:23
Well a comparison with a newish unit of other supposedly 'elite marines' are with basic CSM. Lets compare them with a unit that a GK player would acually use (and which I have faced a few times too).

10 man Strike Squad, with 2 psycannons. Some like to give the Justicar a Daemon Hammer, but for a fair comparison the CSM champ would then need a powerfist, so I'll skip it.
GKSS, 2 psycannons. That is a unit people would actually field, and costs you 220 pts.

Lets compare with a similar CSM unit. A plasmagun is inferior to the Psycannon against just about everything, infantry and vehicles, except 2+ save models within 12", and you can't assault after shooting it, and it gets hot. But for fairness sake, the CSM are given 2 plasmaguns to be somewhat on par. Just as it happens, quite a few think that is the best guns to give a 10-man squad of CSM, so hardly unrealistic.

To be as versatile as the GKs, they need übergrit, and most people seem to think it is worth it too. The champ is given a power weapon or lightning claw (my favourite is a single lightning claw personally).

The closest CSM have to ATSKNF is a chaos icon which grants fearless, which is both better and worse than ATSKNF, so for fairness sake, they should buy that too. I'll skip giving them a mark, because then it just becomes silly. Or skip fearless and give then a mark, as the fearless icon is so expensive.

The CSM unit now costs 215-230 pts, which is about the same as the GKs, yet they are inferior in almost every way.

I just don't see how the argument that GKs get few models hold any weight? Their PA dudes cost the same (when you take upgrades into account) as other marines, and their termies too, yet they are simply better. Same with their characters, who cost about the same as other marine characters in termi armour, yet they are noticeably superior. The argument that they have low numbers is just silly. They have about the same numbers as other marine armies, their models are just better on a model-by-model basis.

Some seem to think that a tooled out tactical squad/CSM squad costs around 150 pts, which it simply doesn't. If it did, I would agree that GKs had a reasonable cost.

Also something worth considering is that SS squads are seen as one of the weaker choices in the GK book, when at the same time they simply blow most other PA troops units for similar points out of the water. That should tell us something about the balance of the GK codex in comparison with other marines.

TheDoctor
04-05-2013, 20:35
I don't think there is any point in arguing, they have ignored contradictory information, ignored or downplayed all the benefits Grey Knights get over other marine chapters for only a few points more, and have made several statements that are leaning on the side of being untrue.

Edit: And I have to agree with totegeboren
The other standard troop choice for Grey Knights- terminators. How do they cost the same as every other marine terminator when they are better than every other marine terminator? Sure, they can get outfought by those over-powered TH/SS terminators, but for the 2-3 turns those TH/SS termies are slogging across the board, they aren't doing anything.

And then the psycannon is even more criminally undercosted on Grey Knight Terminators. Considering the psycannon is strictly better than the assault cannon:
-Psycannon is 5 pts less than Vanilla Marines
-5 pts less than a space wolf assault cannon
-5 pts less than those over-powered blood angels

Only in the Dark Angels and Black Templars codex is the psycannon 5 pts more than the assault cannon

And before the cries of "oh, but they can't take cyclones"
-If you are shooting the cyclone, you are generally wasting storm bolter shots
-If you are shooting the cyclone at a distant target, you are wasting storm bolter shots

3eland
04-05-2013, 20:48
I don't think there is any point in arguing, they have ignored contradictory information, ignored or downplayed all the benefits Grey Knights get over other marine chapters for only a few points more, and have made several statements that are leaning on the side of being untrue.

As a GK player I KNOW they beat other chapters point for point, item for item, I was merely listing what my dice rolling buddies and myself did in comparison. I don't understand why other GK players are fighting/arguing so much lol.

TheDoctor
04-05-2013, 20:58
As a GK player I KNOW they beat other chapters point for point, item for item, I was merely listing what my dice rolling buddies and myself did in comparison. I don't understand why other GK players are fighting/arguing so much lol.

My post wasn't directed at you, I actually liked the point comparison of various units side by side.

3eland
04-05-2013, 21:01
My post wasn't directed at you, I actually liked the point comparison of various units side by side.

:) Carry on then ;)

Stacius
04-05-2013, 21:28
Lol 3eland has hit the nail on the head. There really is no argument. If anything, the biggest thing a grey knight player could say is that the codex is fairly stale in certain force org slots. Yes, they have great units, and the ability to change force org slots with specials but going on the basic org it can be fairly dull. I am not saying this to have a pop, but the elites section was always most fun when I made lists.
I do think they are still one of the stronger dexes, however they could, could, be surpassed by necrons, and maybe Tau. Against other power armour forces they are the strongest. Currently, in our campaign, we have 2 grey knight forces. The differences between them? Dread knights have different guns, grand masters have different guns. Yeah, that's it. So seriously I think a tad stale. However, the same could be said of a lot of dexes, lmao bearing in mind how elite any marine should be really ;)

lantzkev
04-05-2013, 21:48
So your comparison is against terminators? that unit I never take because they aren't as good as the other chapters?

Slogging across the board? I'm sorry I guess no other army has access to storm ravens that has access to terminators... or better yet, drop pods. Naw grey knights have tons of drop pod options, and no terminator other than grey knights has access to deep strike right?


The other standard troop choice for Grey Knights- terminators. How do they cost the same as every other marine terminator when they are better than every other marine terminator? Sure, they can get outfought by those over-powered TH/SS terminators, but for the 2-3 turns those TH/SS termies are slogging across the board, they aren't doing anything.

Every other army with terminators has access to the same things a grey knight player does, and drop pods on top in general. To top it off they have the option of a 3++ shield that grey knights don't get. This IS a huge difference.


I don't think there is any point in arguing, they have ignored contradictory information, ignored or downplayed all the benefits Grey Knights get over other marine chapters for only a few points more, and have made several statements that are leaning on the side of being untrue. so far we've had like 5 posts dealing with actual comparisons and actual points, which have been ignored or glossed over. The most favorable comparison for the grey knight player to be "uber" have been made without any serious points being addressed.

so our strike squad is good but nothing truly exceptional. Our terminators are only better if you compare them with others that "foot slog" which none do or have to. our leaders are just as cost effective/good/bad as other space marine chapters but somehow they are amazing bawls better?

Let's specifically compare 6th edition codexes as that's the target and how things are trending.

Stacius
04-05-2013, 22:06
If we are comparing terms then that's cool. Ok so grey knight terms and vanilla/bloods can get in a storm raven or land raider. They are all equal at this point. Each unit costing the same , 200 points. Vanilla/bloods are armed with power fists and storm bolters, sword on the sarge. Grey knight terms can be armed with daemon hammers on all models and come with storm bolters too. So again, we are equal. Now, it's when you factor in that standard terms are str 8, and knights are str 10 after hammer hand. That's a pretty good bonus. Dark angels terms cost 15 points more but can choose what turn to deep strike on. There guns count as twin linked the turn they arrive, which is great. But, again, we have no upgrades paid for so it's all storm bolters. No storm raven for darks either.
Drop pods? Well if someone is putting terms in a pod against you, asides from wolves who I think can do it and attached independent characters, then they are being a little cheeky as terms can't take them as dedicated transports. So again, it's all very similair. Now the main differences in terms are:
grey knights, hammer hand, can mix up force weapons each granting a differing bonus for no points. Assault grenades, krak grenades, Psyker out grenades, aegis, preferred enemy: daemons. Oh, but I think you have to pay for the falchions for the extra attack? You can deep strike or joyride a raider/raven.
Vanilla. Pick either assault or shooty. Can have a heavy weapon in the unit if shooty or go hammer crazy but lose all ranged. Deep strike, can joyride raider/raven. Same points. (Remember, we are using 200 here)
bloods. Again shooty or close combat but no hammers for you! You gotta pay.
So, point for point, your terms can have a 4++ in combat, int 6 in combat, str 8/10 in combat. You can strike at initiative and force psykers to swing last. All get same transport options.
To be honest I and many, many other players I know rate grey knight terms as the best in the game. They really are excellent, and a troops choice straight from the bat too. So, instead of worrying whether to take terms or that juicy assasin, you can have both. Remember in an objective based game, a 2+/5++ unit is pretty good.
So, basic points, I believe knight terms are ace. It's why I used to have ten.

Losing Command
04-05-2013, 22:09
Poor rolling can lose the game for anyone; this is not a weakness exclusively found amongst Grey Knights. And as was stated before, 20 points is not an expensive investment considering what you're getting as standard.

Nowhere did I say that poor rolls are an exclusive weakness for GK, and I think my post also had the words "only 20 points" in them. What I was trying to say is that with every failed save you feel the loss in damage output more keenly then when 6 orks got shot down for example ;)

Worldeaters
04-05-2013, 22:34
Figured I'd stick my oar in from a chaos perspective.
My brother and I have found this thread amusing, especially with the tantrums and after our game today we had a couple of hours spare (his wicked witch didn't expect him back till 9) we decided to get his grey knights out, he put them away a year ago after he decided winning every game easily wasn't fun and went back to his space puppies!
I hate math hammer and prefer testing units out properly, so he had five of those 'really expensive' 200ish point troop squads and I had five squads of csm squads with a budget of 220 points each. Left one undivided, then one of each mark, all of them well tooled up (every squad 10 men).
Table set up properly, plenty of scenery, long table edge each (6x4). Only limitation was that it was squad v squad, no helping each other out and to keep it short it was a easy gk victory, four to one.
The only chaos unit that won was the slaneesh marked squad, with some decent cover and feel no pain, then the initiative five in combat helped aswell.
In summary 40k is 'supposedly' all about the troops and in a troops v troops battle with chaos it was a massacre.

Luffwaffle
04-05-2013, 22:48
Only real weakness is that GK has a lack of ability to deal with AV 14 at range. Oh and they have all the weaknesses to AP3 weapons as a regular space marine. A 200 pt SS is just as vulnerable to a battle cannon shell as a 160 pt squad of tac marines. For all their glory, a leman Russ will vaporize them all the same, except the GK player loses 40 points more. Not saying that offsets all the goodies the SS gets over a Tac marine, but it is a weakness.

lantzkev
04-05-2013, 23:19
it's funny you point out that the grey knights can for free get a 4+ in melee with a sword, str 8/10 (if they pass psychic test for str 10) or initiative 6 (halberd) but then fail to mention storm shield terminators that run around with 3++ period at all times.

You can call the grey knight terminator options ace but you're wrong, for terminators 3++ is king or massive assault ranged options, which terminators have neither.

Ssilmath
04-05-2013, 23:30
Ah, but all of those options come with incredible shooting, which the TH/SS Terminators lack. So while the TH/SS termies are moving up the field accomplishing absolutely nothing, the GK Termies are letting loose with Str 5 shots and an improved assault cannon. So once again, your example falls flat. Keep flailing, I'm sure that eventually you'll find something that can't be argued against.

Stacius
04-05-2013, 23:46
Ok, as I did say if you look I was comparing 200 points. Yes, vanilla marines can have a 3++ at all times. They also have zero, as in no, ranged attack.
Hammer hand is an amazing boost. Going first in combat, initiative 6, or same time as majority of troops, initiative 4, and killing other troop choices, basic ones, on a 3. Also being able to pen rear armour with attacks over glancing.
The 3++ is not much use if they don't get shot at or get into combat. Bloods pay for there shields, as do wolves and dark angels. And massive assault ranged options? Seriously? Ok, so I take it you must be referring to the mighty cyclone. Which can't be taken in vanilla assault terms? It can on dark angel ones, who have a more expensive base cost? Maybe you would rather have an assault cannon over the psycannon? Or a heavy flamer over your incinerator? How about no option for str 5 guns on basic storm bolters so they can be str 4 like everyone else's?
To be honest, I won't continue this debate as its fairly pointless. Ultimately you will only be happy when we all say "grey knights are seriously weak. They are rubbish at close combat, and there ranged is the worst in the game". I'm sure they will fix it in the next codex. Till then my group, consisting of a throne of skulls winner, a knight of the inner circle, six GW staffers, and five regular tournament players will keep on believing that, point for point, for all round excellence and value for money the grey knight terminator is the best in game. Please note the 'all round excellence'.this encompasses shooting and close combat potential. So a unit that excels at one, may not be great at the other. All terms die when you roll a 1, and aside from ap 1 and 2 guns, all terms get a 2+ save. A storm shield matters not against a bolter?
As regards luftwaffle, I agree. Your options are fairly limited vs AV14 at range. You have raiders, ravens and vindicaires. You can get them with an orbital bombardment, but your paying more points for that. Within 24" you get more options, with psycannons, but at range you can struggle with AV 14.

Luffwaffle
05-05-2013, 00:01
Ah, but all of those options come with incredible shooting, which the TH/SS Terminators lack. So while the TH/SS termies are moving up the field accomplishing absolutely nothing, the GK Termies are letting loose with Str 5 shots and an improved assault cannon. So once again, your example falls flat. Keep flailing, I'm sure that eventually you'll find something that can't be argued against.

Assuming as soon as the GK termies get in range to fire, they aren't vaporized by the plasma that is so common these days, while the TH/SS termies will probably survive. Again, not saying this makes up for all the GK goodies but it is a fact.

lantzkev
05-05-2013, 00:28
Ok, as I did say if you look I was comparing 200 points. Yes, vanilla marines can have a 3++ at all times. They also have zero, as in no, ranged attack.
Hammer hand is an amazing boost. Going first in combat, initiative 6, or same time as majority of troops, initiative 4, and killing other troop choices, basic ones, on a 3. Also being able to pen rear armour with attacks over glancing.
The 3++ is not much use if they don't get shot at or get into combat. Bloods pay for there shields, as do wolves and dark angels. And massive assault ranged options? Seriously? Ok, so I take it you must be referring to the mighty cyclone. Which can't be taken in vanilla assault terms? It can on dark angel ones, who have a more expensive base cost? Maybe you would rather have an assault cannon over the psycannon? Or a heavy flamer over your incinerator? How about no option for str 5 guns on basic storm bolters so they can be str 4 like everyone else's?
To be honest, I won't continue this debate as its fairly pointless. Ultimately you will only be happy when we all say "grey knights are seriously weak. They are rubbish at close combat, and there ranged is the worst in the game". I'm sure they will fix it in the next codex. Till then my group, consisting of a throne of skulls winner, a knight of the inner circle, six GW staffers, and five regular tournament players will keep on believing that, point for point, for all round excellence and value for money the grey knight terminator is the best in game. Please note the 'all round excellence'.this encompasses shooting and close combat potential. So a unit that excels at one, may not be great at the other. All terms die when you roll a 1, and aside from ap 1 and 2 guns, all terms get a 2+ save. A storm shield matters not against a bolter?
As regards luftwaffle, I agree. Your options are fairly limited vs AV14 at range. You have raiders, ravens and vindicaires. You can get them with an orbital bombardment, but your paying more points for that. Within 24" you get more options, with psycannons, but at range you can struggle with AV 14.

An amazingly derisive comment with littler substance.

Thunder hammer + storm shield + drop pod, 2nd turn gold.

There is not a terminator in the world that I would not take before grey knights to be honest. Their strength is everywhere else, specifically in 6th edition. Yeah they all die equally to bolter fire, but that's not what people bring to bear against terminators when they can, they bring plasma and other ap 2 weapons. The reason I bring up storm shield and thunder hammer, is because it works and it survives and it's effective at all times. The armies that take them, take them with a guaranteed turn 2 assault. With the current meta the old style of putting em in a transport and hoping to assault turn 3 or 4 is gone. the flyer meta is a great way to get the terminators killed, your only options point wise are to go with 3++ for flyer based terminators, or to drop pod in.

Everything else, really other armies do as well, slightly worse, or better.

My strength 5 terminators carry nothing else. As you add weapons their efficiency drops for the points.

MagicHat
05-05-2013, 00:30
I consider the 12 inch anti-deepstrike bubble nice, but it's not a game ender even for demons.

So let's look at assault? We know that the Blood angels beat the space marines for these options,

The deepstrike bubble can help against the drop pods that GK don't get you know.
10 BA assault marines under FNP/FC charging 10 GK SS barely triumps. GK kills 2.5, BA kills 3. When charging. If the GK charges, they are far more deadly.


Terminators? Pretty much every army has better options for survivability with storm shields. 2 wounds is certainly a plus, but it makes them expensive, and they still die a third of the time to str 8 ap 2 weapons.

I use tactical terminators. Power axe sergeant, assault cannon, occasionaly have a terminator priest with them.
The GK terminators can have 5 hammers and a better assault cannon, for less. And they have protection versus psychic powers, access to S10 and Force, grenades and are troops. If they take a warding stave, they flattens tactical terminators.
But hey, you want to compare them to 6th edition.
DW terminators with TH/SS, because that is the only way to run terminators apparently. 245 points. Costs the same as 5 GK terminators with psycannon and one warding stave in the group. GK should win there, as they gets a few turns of shooting.


Vehicles? dreadknight is the only thing unique worth talking about. Everyone else has a dreadnought that's better.

Psyfleman: 135 points.
DA rifleman: 120.
The psyfleman pays 15 points over the DA dread for S8, which is a pretty damn good upgrade, and the ability to shrug of stunned/shaken. And it protects its friends from magic to.

[QUOTE=lantzkev;6753150]Coteaz? If you want guard like abilities in a leader and a troop or two just load up some allies and do it better. But I'll talk about this point, I love them for holding objectives, and they are good at it, but again, the way the work well are 10-12man units that are cheap to hold something, and usually around an aegis line. Anything else they get wasted at.

Coteaz don't need henchmen to be awesome, he is perfectly fine walking around with his GK bros.
I am kinda amused that you think that they are only good for holding objectives though when they have the versatility to do pretty much anything, except skyfire.


EDIT: Lantzkev, it is very hard to take you serious if you think that TH/SS terminators can ride in drop pods, because they can't. Except for the 65 ppm something SW terminators.

Stacius
05-05-2013, 00:39
Seriously where are these drop pods for terms coming from? I know wolves can but could someone enlighten me as to the other armies that can pod in terms! I know bloods, dark angels, vanilla and chaos can't. Guaranteed turn 2 assault? I don't know who your playing against but aside from dark angels no other term unit can deep strike on turn 1.
@MagicHat that's what is confusing me here too! Lol agree with you 100 %

SamaNagol
05-05-2013, 00:48
Any army that can ally with IG, model count is irrelevant.

And GK are so versatile. They excel as a primary or ally. Sticking Drago and 10 Pallies into any list will improve it vastly.

They are not point and click to win as they were in 5th, but they definitely are no zoo animal made of paper. Not even close.

lordreaven448
05-05-2013, 01:28
I honestly think the next C:SM will not have DA pricing for Tacticals. They save 2 points for not being allowed to fail Moral tests. If the next Marine dex does get that discount AND get to keep Combat Tactics, Combat Sqauds, and ATSKNF then I give up on this game.

lordreaven448
05-05-2013, 01:28
Seriously where are these drop pods for terms coming from? I know wolves can but could someone enlighten me as to the other armies that can pod in terms! I know bloods, dark angels, vanilla and chaos can't. Guaranteed turn 2 assault? I don't know who your playing against but aside from dark angels no other term unit can deep strike on turn 1.
@MagicHat that's what is confusing me here too! Lol agree with you 100 %
Black Templars

Challenge Accepted
05-05-2013, 03:29
I suppose what is most annoying, is to see Grey Knight players complaining about the price they pay when I would pay it gladly for a unit half as dangerous.

Luffwaffle
05-05-2013, 03:35
I suppose what is most annoying, is to see Grey Knight players complaining about the price they pay when I would pay it gladly for a unit half as dangerous.
I don't think anyone is complaining about the price. They are just saying that the price justifies their abilities.

Challenge Accepted
05-05-2013, 03:49
I don't think anyone is complaining about the price. They are just saying that the price justifies their abilities.

Then you've missed several pages of the thread. Konovalev has complained in several messages about the price of both his units, and wargear upgrades.

He went so far as to call the price of staves 'hideous'.

KhornateLord
05-05-2013, 04:30
Well a comparison with a newish unit of other supposedly 'elite marines' are with basic CSM. Lets compare them with a unit that a GK player would acually use (and which I have faced a few times too).

10 man Strike Squad, with 2 psycannons. Some like to give the Justicar a Daemon Hammer, but for a fair comparison the CSM champ would then need a powerfist, so I'll skip it.
GKSS, 2 psycannons. That is a unit people would actually field, and costs you 220 pts.

Lets compare with a similar CSM unit. A plasmagun is inferior to the Psycannon against just about everything, infantry and vehicles, except 2+ save models within 12", and you can't assault after shooting it, and it gets hot. But for fairness sake, the CSM are given 2 plasmaguns to be somewhat on par. Just as it happens, quite a few think that is the best guns to give a 10-man squad of CSM, so hardly unrealistic.

To be as versatile as the GKs, they need übergrit, and most people seem to think it is worth it too. The champ is given a power weapon or lightning claw (my favourite is a single lightning claw personally).

The closest CSM have to ATSKNF is a chaos icon which grants fearless, which is both better and worse than ATSKNF, so for fairness sake, they should buy that too. I'll skip giving them a mark, because then it just becomes silly. Or skip fearless and give then a mark, as the fearless icon is so expensive.

The CSM unit now costs 215-230 pts, which is about the same as the GKs, yet they are inferior in almost every way.

I just don't see how the argument that GKs get few models hold any weight? Their PA dudes cost the same (when you take upgrades into account) as other marines, and their termies too, yet they are simply better. Same with their characters, who cost about the same as other marine characters in termi armour, yet they are noticeably superior. The argument that they have low numbers is just silly. They have about the same numbers as other marine armies, their models are just better on a model-by-model basis.

Some seem to think that a tooled out tactical squad/CSM squad costs around 150 pts, which it simply doesn't. If it did, I would agree that GKs had a reasonable cost.

Also something worth considering is that SS squads are seen as one of the weaker choices in the GK book, when at the same time they simply blow most other PA troops units for similar points out of the water. That should tell us something about the balance of the GK codex in comparison with other marines.




So your comparison is against terminators? that unit I never take because they aren't as good as the other chapters?

Slogging across the board? I'm sorry I guess no other army has access to storm ravens that has access to terminators... or better yet, drop pods. Naw grey knights have tons of drop pod options, and no terminator other than grey knights has access to deep strike right?



Every other army with terminators has access to the same things a grey knight player does, and drop pods on top in general. To top it off they have the option of a 3++ shield that grey knights don't get. This IS a huge difference.

so far we've had like 5 posts dealing with actual comparisons and actual points, which have been ignored or glossed over. The most favorable comparison for the grey knight player to be "uber" have been made without any serious points being addressed.

so our strike squad is good but nothing truly exceptional. Our terminators are only better if you compare them with others that "foot slog" which none do or have to. our leaders are just as cost effective/good/bad as other space marine chapters but somehow they are amazing bawls better?

Let's specifically compare 6th edition codexes as that's the target and how things are trending.

I love how your ignore possibly the best post.
I've run the binomial distributions. Troop choices for codex GK, against ONLY DA and CSM 6th ed codices (which aren't even the strongest codices currently) are far better on a per point cost, against a wide range of enemies. Purely based on shooting, they are better. So that 22pts (including psybolts) is cost effective, even if you don't make melee. Once you do make melee (which you will, because both the other squads need to get within 12" to even stand a chance of getting similar results) you make mincemeat out of them.

If you want, i'll post the stats. Then you factor in extra grenades, and psychic powers, and it's skewed even further.

The problem with grey knights IS NOT THAT THEY HAVE COOL STUFF (as you try to assert this as the basis for our argument). It's that on top of getting the free stuff marines get (ATSKNF > Fearless), they don't pay enough points for the rules, abilities and options they do get.

Israfael
05-05-2013, 05:10
Discussing the power level of the Grey Knight codex has become akin to debating politics or religion, it would seem. Willful ignorance is what's really overpowered.

KhornateLord
05-05-2013, 05:23
It's crazy, isn't it?

Stacius
05-05-2013, 05:34
I thought that the Templars had been FAQd to not have podding terms.

The Templar
05-05-2013, 13:06
I thought that the Templars had been FAQd to not have podding terms.

Correct my friend :(

lantzkev
05-05-2013, 13:38
I love how your ignore possibly the best post.
I've run the binomial distributions. Troop choices for codex GK, against ONLY DA and CSM 6th ed codices (which aren't even the strongest codices currently) are far better on a per point cost, against a wide range of enemies. Purely based on shooting, they are better. So that 22pts (including psybolts) is cost effective, even if you don't make melee. Once you do make melee (which you will, because both the other squads need to get within 12" to even stand a chance of getting similar results) you make mincemeat out of them.

If you want, i'll post the stats. Then you factor in extra grenades, and psychic powers, and it's skewed even further.

The problem with grey knights IS NOT THAT THEY HAVE COOL STUFF (as you try to assert this as the basis for our argument). It's that on top of getting the free stuff marines get (ATSKNF > Fearless), they don't pay enough points for the rules, abilities and options they do get.


I didn't ignore it, but it seems to be a straw man argument to compare chaos to anything space marine, even if they are from the marines in the past their rules are not the easiest to compare. I for one know that fearless doesn't cause the issues it did in 5th, I also know that you can and DO field more models in other space marine armies that do essentially the same thing.

When I get to work, I'll create a full kitted out squad for strike squads, paladins, terminators, leaders, etc. There's nothing that makes them superior above and beyond the other space marine chapters that they don't pay adequately for. And as to the warding stave, that thing IS over priced for it's limited use. It's why you don't take swords over halberds or hammers for terminators.

totgeboren
05-05-2013, 15:26
I didn't ignore it, but it seems to be a straw man argument to compare chaos to anything space marine, even if they are from the marines in the past their rules are not the easiest to compare. I for one know that fearless doesn't cause the issues it did in 5th, I also know that you can and DO field more models in other space marine armies that do essentially the same thing.

When I get to work, I'll create a full kitted out squad for strike squads, paladins, terminators, leaders, etc. There's nothing that makes them superior above and beyond the other space marine chapters that they don't pay adequately for. And as to the warding stave, that thing IS over priced for it's limited use. It's why you don't take swords over halberds or hammers for terminators.

I would say GKs are as similar to CSM as they are to other SM. The reason for me writing that post was that I used to think that the price GKs pay for their abilities was low numbers, but after facing them a few times with my CSM, I realised our armies were about the same number of models, and I use no Cult troops at all, just CSM, and often no marks or Icons.

So I took a look at the armies my enemies were fielding, and no one was cheating. Most GK units simply cost about the same on a unit-by-unit basis, with the exception of Paladins, which have no real equivalent in other armies. Ok, some units might cost a little bit more, but their offensive output is instead often in the region of double or triple that of a similar unit from other armies. And that was why I realised why fighting them was such an uphill struggle.

Your point that they pay for their abilities simply isn't true on a unit or army scale, and I would argue not even on an individual scale either.

Mánagarmr
05-05-2013, 16:26
Discussing the power level of the Grey Knight codex has become akin to debating politics or religion, it would seem. Willful ignorance is what's really overpowered.

Few people want to admit that they have an advantage over others in any game, as it would take away from what they believe is inherent 'skill' within themselves. People would rather believe they play a perfectly balanced army, and that they're just especially good at it.

Truth be told, I expected to see a lot more W/L/D signatures in this thread.

KhornateLord
05-05-2013, 22:56
I didn't ignore it, but it seems to be a straw man argument to compare chaos to anything space marine, even if they are from the marines in the past their rules are not the easiest to compare. I for one know that fearless doesn't cause the issues it did in 5th, I also know that you can and DO field more models in other space marine armies that do essentially the same thing.

When I get to work, I'll create a full kitted out squad for strike squads, paladins, terminators, leaders, etc. There's nothing that makes them superior above and beyond the other space marine chapters that they don't pay adequately for. And as to the warding stave, that thing IS over priced for it's limited use. It's why you don't take swords over halberds or hammers for terminators.

Ah, so it doesn't meet your exacting standards.
If we made a comparison with grey knights, considered the most cost effective MEQ choice, would that help? Or your beloved blood angels tacticals? Dark angels?
I'm happy to run the statistics and post them for either match-up, but if you are going to pretend that not matter the comparison that it has no value then there's no point us acting like you are doing anything more complicated than humming your favourite tune with your fingers in your ears.

lantzkev
05-05-2013, 23:22
Ah, so it doesn't meet your exacting standards.
If we made a comparison with grey knights, considered the most cost effective MEQ choice, would that help? Or your beloved blood angels tacticals? Dark angels?
I'm happy to run the statistics and post them for either match-up, but if you are going to pretend that not matter the comparison that it has no value then there's no point us acting like you are doing anything more complicated than humming your favourite tune with your fingers in your ears.

well when you're trying to compare and contrast something with grey knights, comparing them with other space marine chapters seems the logical choice. I'd of been just as "exacting" if you had tried to compare them to Tau. Like I said I'll try and bring up exact unit configurations that I personally use and deem as effective point wise. Some of it is unconventional, but most isn't far from what others use. if we can compare them with dark angels, smurfs, and blood angels, that would seem ideal. Specifically then we're comparing apples to other apples and not some weird hybrid apple/pear.

KhornateLord
05-05-2013, 23:28
well when you're trying to compare and contrast something with grey knights, comparing them with other space marine chapters seems the logical choice. I'd of been just as "exacting" if you had tried to compare them to Tau. Like I said I'll try and bring up exact unit configurations that I personally use and deem as effective point wise. Some of it is unconventional, but most isn't far from what others use. if we can compare them with dark angels, smurfs, and blood angels, that would seem ideal. Specifically then we're comparing apples to other apples and not some weird hybrid apple/pear.

I'll look forward to seeing the representative list that you deem the best choice for your argument.

The fact of the matter is that CSM isn't an unfair comparison. It's a 6th ed codex, with modernish pricing for upgrades.
If the cost of one grey knight in power armour is cost effective compared to it's benefits, then comparing entire units is going to return a similar result.
The only way it can happen otherwise, is if grey knights pay more for upgrades like rhinos (they don't), or if unit upgrades like psybolts (already factored per model in the 22pts quote) and psycannons are materially worse than other options such as plasma/missile launcher... they aren't.

lantzkev
05-05-2013, 23:31
It may be a fair comparison to be honest, but it's not the easiest comparison. We could argue necrons or tau are a fair comparison by your metric because it's a 6th edition codex as well...

KhornateLord
05-05-2013, 23:40
It may be a fair comparison to be honest, but it's not the easiest comparison. We could argue necrons or tau are a fair comparison by your metric because it's a 6th edition codex as well...

Because Tau and Necrons share stat-lines, universal rules, and saves?

CSM share stat lines, they have no extra universal special rules, and they have 3+ saves and are a troops choice. They have nearly the same options as normal imperial marines.
But if you want to cook up your own scenario, then go ahead.

Would you like me to compare GK to Grey Hunters? To Dark Angel Tacticals? To Sternguard?
All you did was suggest that you'll make up some scenario, which will in all probability be grey knight terminators with very specific wargear against a very specific enemy. I don't see why it's so hard for you to tell us what comparison would make you happy? What space marine army gives you problems with your grey knights? What space marine chapter swarms your power armoured grey knights, and out-fights you in taking objectives, or better yet has superior mid-range firepower combined with better combat ability?

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 00:21
you make it sound like I'm here to game some scenario. I asked to compare all space marine chapters not the whole 40k universe. I know grey knights well so I'll talk about the merits and demerits.

I'm told we're the best at everything and I know it's not patently true. I know that like most space marine armies grey knights are without much in the way of flaws with the cost of what they take being the balancing factor. I was hoping that people would take their unit of choice for each type, it troop, assault, heavies, elites etc and just post up the points and their advantages disadvantages for comparison. We don't need scenarios we just need raw information to compare that's not colored by your own desire to game the comparison.

(I tend to take full units when they have squad wide upgrades to maximize point efficiency of things like psybolt ammo. psybolt ammo is "more expensive" on a 5 man squad than a 10man squad per model, and with combat squadding it's a no brainer in general.

HQ these are the three I take on a regular basis

Grand Master 225pts
ws/bs 6 3 attacks, 3 wounds, init 5.
Master crafted hammer, psychotroke and rad grenades, terminator armor, aegis, grand strategy, terminator armor, iron halo, hammer hand/communion lvl 1 psyker.

Usually he rides with Assassins providing something for anti-vehicle/2+ armor. Largely there to carry grenades, challenge, and most importantly provide grand strategy for the dreadknights to become scoring. His shooting isn't anything I factor in when I take him, it's all about the melee, he buffs the strength of the assassin and himself so he's swinging str 10, and they are swinging str 4 rather than 3. I can usually count on this unless against tyrannids or eldar.

Inquisitor Coteaz 100pts.
He's here purely for his ability to intercept all units within 12 inches and to make the henchmen scoring troops. usually he's bunked with a squad of henchmen (see below) behind and aegis line, a pure defense selection. the psyber eagle is cute, but his power is with as large a unit as possible to make use of his I've been expecting you rule. In melee he's a joke due to his toughness 3 and no invulnerable save and striking at initiative 1, but that's ok.

Xenos inquisitors - for when I need grenades and dont' want to pay for grandmaster or a techmarine. 55pts, same stat line as coteaz basically. only thing really worth mentioning are the psychotroke grenades and the radiation grenades and 4+ armor.

Strike Squad - 10 members, 220pts.
-Some argue for a psycannon, and I don't think it's a bad choice, I personally think it dilutes the value of the psybolt ammo the more weapons you replace that use it. Since you tend to move with them the assault 2 value of str 7 rending is not as huge point wise for the targets I tend to shoot at with them. If you want to compare psycannon increase cost by 20pts for two of them. main value is 10 man scoring squad that combat squad if necesssary and has assault 2 str 5 ap 5 weapons and force swords. The psychic powers are not bad +1 str, activate force weapons, or prevent deepstrike in 12inches. While solid you're looking at 22pt apiece or 24pts apiece depending on how you want to handle it.

Henchman squad
-two servitors with h.bolters, two jokaero (choice of three weapons + table) and 8 henchmen with bolters 130pts total, usually +85 for an aegis with lasscannon and coteaz with them on an objective. They aren't super accurate but they have a ton of firing options, and the 12 inch interceptor with coteaz is what makes them shine, otherwise they are just some cheap bodies to throw on an objective with 2+ cover when going to ground from aegis. The monkeys are there for their table and to maybe do some damage at range (lasscannon shots)

Interceptors - mobile fire squad, expensive and not worth it in general. 320pts for psybolt ammo and two incinerators. same as strike squad otherwise and teleport 30inch without error once a game and jump infantry. 32pts per model, generally at this point value you're looking at just a little more to be a terminator and have better survivability. These are a non-choice for most grey knight players as their efficiency is abysmal and shouldn't really be pointed towards, some use it effectively but because of their 3+ armor, you're sinking alot of points into something that's not particularly good at assault, and while their shooting is good, it's just not worth it for it's point cost despite the mobility.

Dreadknight - My favorite unit in the whole world for grey knights 295pts. This is the only real way I handle tanks. Monsterous creature with torrent str 6 ap 4 flamer, teleporter, sword (re-roll everything in melee) and a gatling psilencer (12shots str 4)

Storm raven, everyone gets one it seems now, the grey knights 255pts side sponsons and psybolt ammo, twin linked heavy bolter and twin linked assault cannon on turret, str 4 blast missiles with auto perils on hits on psykers.

Henchman - Assassins 8-10. 120-150pts, 5+ invulnerable, high initiative, paired force weapons. 4 attacks on a charge, str 4 if inquisitor and the unit is -1 toughness and psychotroke table. a one hit wonder that must ride a storm raven and needs an inquisitor with grenades to work well if not grandmaster.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 00:31
You have listed units you use.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, or what point you want me to prove.

Here is my point:
Strike Squads, for their price, are very good at shooting. However, they are also better in assault, than dedicated assault units, which have inferior shooting.
Opposing troop choices, need to get within 12" to be effective against grey knights, who can then shoot you, and follow it up with an assault. They are a scoring, low cost, troops choice with force weapons.

Have you every played against an opponent and swapped armies?

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 00:34
how about instead of telling me they are superior you show me how a blood angels, dark angels, or space wolf unit is so inferior?

-edit-
See I've provided a break down of how it's used largely, what they do, and how much they cost. It's easier to objectively talk about things if you have objective information. I'm really tired of this "they are soo much better and efficient" argument without any facts to support. Please stop posting if you won't post content and instead want to argue semantics, english language, and general arguments that have nothing to do to further an actual argument for or against grey knights being a paper tiger....

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 00:39
Have you been paying attention this whole thread? It's filled with examples of how Grey Knights are more superior than their points cost should allow.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 00:47
I have been, and I've yet to see anything specifically compared. I see constant sniping at each other with personal remarks, I see constant muddied and generalized "zomg they doo soo much" but I see little meaningful information.

most of it centers around our troops and HQ so that's the first thing I've listed. Rather than say "dude read the thread" how about you contribute the information so a real dialogue can be made. I'm open to the idea my grey knights are op as hell, my record shows they must be strong or I'm awesome or some combination of both. I think a declaration that they are head and shoulders above all other marine armies though is false and I seek to prove it or be disproven objectively without this "well this one unit is like crap compared to this" let's compare armies units as they are actually fielded. We have point comparisons of "per model" point values at 20pts earlier in this thread compared with 16pt tactical marines and then "zomg it's 4pts difference for all this" but when you look at how a unit is fielded it's anywhere between 22-26pts a model (generally 22-24pts) and the tactical squad is probably more than 16pts a model.

-edit- As example, the assassins aren't super potent on their own, but they are when they are in a storm raven with a grenade carrier of psychotroke and radiation grenades. The unit cost for their effectiveness is based on a combination of a character and a fast attack transport. On their own in a vacuum slogging on a field or hiding in terrain they are worthless.

The henchmen are ok on their own, but not as effective as guard, so I posted how they are used, which is in conjunction with an aegis line and coteaz, which increases their cost and their effectiveness dramatically.

And aside from some hencman options, and a dreadnoughts autocannon, there aren't any real options for beyond 24inches of range.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 01:01
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?367135-Grey-Knights-Why-the-Hate&p=6682380&viewfull=1#post6682380


It's not just about being better.
In the old daemonhunters codex, grey knights were still better than normal astartes, but were more expensive.

Points are the ultimate arbiter of balance. Being better stat-wise, impact-wise, or in any other way is useless if the unit is over-costed.

The problem with grey knights, is that they are simply too cheap.

For 20pts a model (free justicar) you get a space marine with a stormbolter, and a force weapon.
For 2pts per model (see combat squads) you get str 5 bolter. Now that's some pretty formidable shooting, simply from the conversion from shots (2 per model at 24" on the move) to wounds. Because the basis of this method of attack doesn't rely on denial of armour saves, simply mass damage, it can be utilised without regard for terrain. Because it's an assault weapon it effectively "costs you nothing" to fire these weapons, and it guarantees a basic squad will shoot down light armour.

The force swords, mean that each attack is AP3. The combined force sword rules, means that any multiwound opponent is in for a world of pain. It also means that any unit which assaults them needs to have significant unit strength left, and be hard hitting in order to win combat. Even if they do win, they can't run grey knights down, and the grey knights may simply "leave" combat and start shooting again.

Against anything daemonic, basic grey knights effectively hit on 3, and wound on 3s, rerolling 1s in both cases with their ranged firepower, to all giving them 30% odd less misses/woundfails.

Against elite units, their massed firepower will get through enough wounds to deal significant damage.
Against anything lower than a 3+ it will decimate them.
And yet any elite unit short of a 2+ save gets no armour save, and will likely lose it's wounds.

The odds of a squad of 10 GKs with storm bolters getting 10 hits (OR MORE) is close to over 90% against non-daemons.
They have a 70% chance of dealing 5 wounds (OR MORE) every shooting phase with their basic weaponry.

If you compare to marines at 24" range, they have only a 77% chance of getting 5 hits or more at 24" which gives them a 40% chance of dealing 2 wounds or more, dropping to 14% chance for 3 wounds or more.
At 12" range marines have a 30% chance of dealing 5 wounds or more.

Leaving aside the ability of grey knights to project their force further, and the tactical advantages of being able to move backwards firing, or move forwards firing and attempting to charge, how much more efficient (on this basis alone) are they compared to a tactical squad? At long range, tactical marines are about 75% as effective as equivalent points of grey knights in power armour. When you compare special weapons, and the aforementioned utility it becomes hazy, but the reality is that GKs in power armour aren't any less effective purely at shooting, than equivalent points of space marines. Then you factor in special rules, and their melee capability, and at 20pts it's not a matter of being over powered, it's a matter of being under costed.

So give me a scenario:
Grey Hunters with twin plasma vs 10 Grey Knights with psybolts and psycannons, kill percentages per point cost?
Because at the end of the day, we should measure odds of an outcome (wounds caused, for instance) vs points cost, vs the easy of applying.

Grey Knights have great force projection at 24", don't forgo assault to shoot, and in melee they are more effective than the vast majority of equivalent units.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 01:03
okay you've quoted exactly what I'm talking about, there's no comparison to another space marine unit there there's not even alot of real math, there's an ideal "daemonic" opponent math but that's about it.

-edit-

There is mention of "leaving" combat, but that's a non-issue as they can't choose to and they either stay or they are wiped out, there's a rare occasion when they lose break and regroup the next turn... it's a rarity that's not worth really discussing.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 01:13
okay you've quoted exactly what I'm talking about, there's no comparison to another space marine unit there there's not even alot of real math, there's an ideal "daemonic" opponent math but that's about it.

-edit-

There is mention of "leaving" combat, but that's a non-issue as they can't choose to and they either stay or they are wiped out, there's a rare occasion when they lose break and regroup the next turn... it's a rarity that's not worth really discussing.

How is there no "real math"? Because I didn't include the working out? I'm happy to email you the sheet.
Those results are based on binomial statistics.

I'll break it down for those without reading comprehension. This is the most important bits:

The odds of a squad of 10 GKs with storm bolters getting 10 hits (OR MORE) is close to over 90% against non-daemons.
They have a 70% chance of dealing 5 wounds (OR MORE) every shooting phase with their basic weaponry.

If you compare to marines at 24" range, they have only a 77% chance of getting 5 hits or more at 24" which gives them a 40% chance of dealing 2 wounds or more, dropping to 14% chance for 3 wounds or more.
At 12" range marines have a 30% chance of dealing 5 wounds or more.

The force swords, mean that each attack is AP3. The combined force sword rules, means that any multiwound opponent is in for a world of pain. It also means that any unit which assaults them needs to have significant unit strength left, and be hard hitting in order to win combat. Even if they do win, they can't run grey knights down.

At 13" - 24" with only basic weapons, the grey knights have similar odds of scoring 5 wounds, as a tactical squad has of getting 5 hits!
Within 12" range grey knights are still more than double the likelihood of getting 5 wounds.
In assault they have AP3 force weapons, and they aren't prevented from assaulting by firing.

Are you disputing the numbers? Would you like me to post the formula?

Anyone else find this ironic in his sig:

"Greyknights 17/3/4 2011, 47/4/11 2012" potentially the best argument to be made for GKs being unbalanced. Statistically, if armies are generally balanced and you play against capable opponents, you should lose more games than that purely due to the fickle nature of the dice.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 01:19
So again, where's the comparison of other marine troops and what they do or don't do and their points? You seem to be missing the point of comparison. You even quoted me talking about a lack of comparison, and then you go on to provide no comparison. Am I disputing numbers? nope, I'm asking for numbers, for data, for thoughtful debate and not this rage driven dribble. Stop saying they are amazingly op and providing no data to support it. I can say that a Cult Assassin is overpowered at 15 points, give you math about how on a charge they have ap 3, strike first nearly every time and can do about 2 wounds ignoring 3+ armor before being hit, but that doesn't really prove anything about them being over powered.

Mánagarmr
06-05-2013, 01:22
So again, where's the comparison of other marine troops and what they do or don't do and their points? You seem to be missing the point of comparison. You even quoted me talking about a lack of comparison, and then you go on to provide no comparison. Am I disputing numbers? nope, I'm asking for numbers, for data, for thoughtful debate and not this rage driven dribble. Stop saying they are amazingly op and providing no data to support it. I can say that a Cult Assassin is overpowered at 15 points, give you math about how on a charge they have ap 3, strike first nearly every time and can do about 2 wounds ignoring 3+ armor before being hit, but that doesn't really prove anything about them being over powered.

Are you serious? His example specifically compares Codex: Space Marine tacticals with Codex: Grey Knight strikes. Read it again.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 01:30
there is no mention of point costs for a space marine squad, nor is there mention of the other options said unit would take, nor is there mention of how they are usually kitted. Also there's the issue of the more current marine dexes (wolves, blood angels, black templars) aren't compared it's the oldest and worst example to compare to from what I've seen.


Grey Knight Strike Squad Marine- 20 points, comes with power armour, storm bolter, force sword, frag/krak grenades, psyk-out grenades, 2 psychic power options, preferred enemy (daemons), deep strike, the aegis, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Brotherhood
Space Wolves, Grey Hunter Marine - 15 points, comes with power armour, close combat weapon, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, acute senses, counter attack, ATSKNF
Dark Angel, Tactical Squad Marine - 14 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, grim resolve, ATSKNF, Combat Squads
Chaos Space Marine - 13 points, comes with power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades
'Blue Book' Tactical Space Marine - 16 points, comes with power armour, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, boltgun.

was the closest to what I was asking for and if you'll note the point per model is highest with grey knights at 22-24pts with how they are actually fielded. second highest is smurfs at 16pts, and identical looking model stat wise dark angels are two points less... so clearly they are ideal for his argument, but not really germain to what's been asked which is for every current chapter (and yes this is a good thing to bring up, but it's not the point to look to and say "grey knights are op" when it's clear this selection is over costed compared to to other chapters or there is more there than just the raw unit)

Mánagarmr
06-05-2013, 01:40
Not sure if serious.. :shifty:

Zothos
06-05-2013, 01:45
He is.

Sadly.

TheDoctor
06-05-2013, 01:50
So again, where's the comparison of other marine troops and what they do or don't do and their points? You seem to be missing the point of comparison. You even quoted me talking about a lack of comparison, and then you go on to provide no comparison. Am I disputing numbers? nope, I'm asking for numbers, for data, for thoughtful debate and not this rage driven dribble. Stop saying they are amazingly op and providing no data to support it. I can say that a Cult Assassin is overpowered at 15 points, give you math about how on a charge they have ap 3, strike first nearly every time and can do about 2 wounds ignoring 3+ armor before being hit, but that doesn't really prove anything about them being over powered.

Did you not read the entirety of his post? He gives you hard numbers, and he gives you comparisons. Furthermore, nothing in his post suggests "rage driven dribble".

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 01:59
Here's a comparison for you.

Grey Knight Strike Squad w/ Psybolt ammo and 2 Psycannons - 240 points
Dark Angels Tactical Squad w/ Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Veteran Sergeant, Power Sword - 195 Points
Dark Angels Company Veterans w/ Storm Bolters, Power Swords - 380 Points

Now, for the math. Assumptions that are made are that the squads are both standing still for their heavy weapons, and that the Plasma Cannon catches two models under the blast. Neither side has cover, rending hits for Psycannons not factored in. Targets are general MEQ.

Dark Angels:
@ 24 inches - Bolters - 7 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 fail = 14/18 kills
Plasmagun - 1 shot, 2/3 hit, 5/6 kill = 10/18 kill
Plasma Cannon - 5/6 to shoot, 2 hit, 5/6 kill = 50/36 kills
Total - 2 and 13/18 kill, 71.6 points per kill

@ 12 inches - Boltgun - 15 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 fail = 30/18 kills
Plasmagun - 2 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/6 kill = 20/18 kills
Plasma Cannon - 5/6 to shoot, 2 hit, 5/6 to kill = 50/36 kills
Total - 4 and 1/6 kill, 46.8 points per kill

Charging - Bolt Pistols - 10 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 fail = 20/18 kills
Regular attacks - 18 attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 fail = 18/12 kills
Sergeant - 4 attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 kill = 1 kill
3 and 11/18 kills, 54 points per kill

Grey Knight Strike Squad:
@ 24 and 12 inches: Storm Bolters - 16 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 fail = 64/27 kills
Psycannon - 8 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 fail = 80/18 kills
6 and 22/27 kills, 32.3 points per kill

Charging - Shooting (Half the Psycannon shots) = 124/27 kills
w/o Hammerhand - 21 attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 kill = 21/4 kills
w/ Hammerhand - 21 attacks, 1/2 hit, 2/3 kill = 7 kills
Total (First two) 9 and 91/108 kills (9.84), 22.4 points per kill
Total (Second two) 11 and 16/27 kills (11.6), 18.9 points per kill

So, the best the Dark Angels Tactical squad can get is 46.8 points per MEQ kill, double tapping bolters at 12 inches against a foe that parked less than 12 inches away and didn't charge. The worst Grey Knights can get is 32.3 points per kill against an enemy that they aren't charging.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 02:03
I read the entirety of his post.

I posted what the unit does, its point costs, and any other parts of the army that strengthen it, and how it's usually fielded.

What did I get from him in "hard numbers and comparisons" a "if a tactical squad that I haven't listed is using just bolters they do better at the greater than 12 inches less than 24inches mark... This is far and wide of the mark of a valid comparison between other space marine units. It not only doesn't contain an actual unit to compare, it only compares it in the worst light possible and only really explains the math of the strike squad and not the unit he's arguing is inferior to the space marines. It even lacks as to what unit he's referring to, we can assume it's smurfs but we're not explicitly told.

IF people that play dark angels, blood angels, space marines, space wolves could do a list like mine or somewhat like it, a valid comparison can be made. So far no one wants to do that or even attempt it. They want to focus on niche cases and vacuum scenarios. Individual costs without factoring in how they are kitted and fielded as a whole unit.

You'll have to pardon me, I thought this thread was about if they really are op, and not just a bunch of people saying "yeah they are op" and echoing each other. The way to find if they are op is to compare them in a form somewhat similar to what I've done. To evaluate what they do, what they cost, and what other equivalent armies have as their option. Take the CSM example that was attempted to be used, base cost was 13pts a marine? 9-11pts less than how a strike squad is normally ran?

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 02:11
So the dark angels in the above scenario have nothing else in the army that adds synergy to their attacks or improves their unit? I know for my strike squad there's not really but I could of sworn there was a banner or something.

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 02:14
Ah, moving the goalposts now, are we? I thought you were demanding we compare basic units as people usually took them.


So again, where's the comparison of other marine troops and what they do or don't do and their points?

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 02:15
I'm not sure how you can call it moving the goal post, I was very clear when describing my units what I add beyond it to make them stronger and more effective, as in how they are usually fielded. I was very clear that units were not to be described in a vacuum as well. If moving the goalposts is asking for repeatedly for unbiased objective look at how they are actually fielded, yes?

So let me ask you this:

Do you as a dark angels player usually field tactical squads without a banner to improve them?

-edit-

not sure on it's point cost or how you get it out there, but it seems to me for a nominal cost that per model decreases dramatically you basically double the efficiency of dark angel units with 6inch of that banner... I notice also that you include plasma, is that how you really field it and if so why? to shoot 3+ armor guys or to shoot 2+?

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 02:25
I'm not a Dark Angel player, I play Thousand Sons and Night Lords. But you asked for a direct cost comparison, and you got it. But, if you want to want to include the banner:

Add another 165 points onto the cost of the Tactical Squad at a minimum, making it...360 points...Max damage at 12 inches (For the plasma gun to double tap) is...56/18 bolter kills, plus the 70/36 for plasma...182/36, so 5 and 1/18 kills...38.6 points per kill for the squad itself, which is still worse than Grey Knights do at their worst range. Adding in the cost of the banner...72 points spent per kill. So even not factoring in the cost of the Banner of Devastation but factoring in the increased firepower, Grey Knights come out on top.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 02:28
Grey Knight Strike Squad w/ Psybolt ammo and 2 Psycannons - 240 points
Dark Angels Tactical Squad w/ Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Veteran Sergeant, Power Sword - 195 Points
Dark Angels Company Veterans w/ Storm Bolters, Power Swords - 380 Points

I don't own the codex, why is the unit so damn expensive when it seems their base cost is 195pts but in your example they are 360pts.

I'm not sure when you're talking about veterans or regular tactical squads.

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 02:32
My second example was the cost of a command squad with only a Banner of Devastation in addition the Tactical Squad. That was just an example of the synergy you were talking about. But as I stated, even without factoring in that cost (So 195 points) a Grey Knight Strike Squad still beats out Salvo 4 Bolter tacticals for a point to kill ratio.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 02:34
You've just been given two sets of hard numbers.
I asked you specifically for what comparison you'd like me to make. I can compare squads with varying weapons, such as plasmaguns, etc.
I can in fact tell you how many free plasma guns a squad of grey hunters needs to be as effective as grey knights in the 12 - 24" range.

If you want to bring all kinds of comparisons in, then that's fine. Define the units.

Do you want a command squad of dark angels + a tactical squad to vs two grey knights squads?

Even if the dark angels are better at shooting (they may well be), grey knights are more mobile, more versatile, and better in combat.

So I'm throwing down the gauntlet AGAIN.
What squad gives you the most trouble?
If I compare the firepower of a tactical squad of dark angels, with the banner of devistation, per points cost, vs grey knights will that comparison make you happy to accept that grey knights are OP if that it what it shows? You help determine the parameters of the test that will satisfy YOU. I'm already satisfied that GK strike squads offer flexibility and advantage at 4 - 6 points above normal MEQ, let alone chaos (as all imperials get uncosted advantage over them).

as for DA players: lantzkev, imagine that you pay 80+ points for a single model that has to be in an expensive but otherwise power armoured squad, which bestows a 12" psybolt upgrade, which can't be bought per squad. If that model, of that squad dies, that bonus is lost. How long do you think that squad/model will be alive for?

BASE cost of that squad with standard of dev is 165pts for 5 models, and you can't flesh it out with extra wounds.

Oh and if you want to count synergies, for 20pts less you can take a vindicare assasin who can pick out the standard when it comes within 36", and every turn thereafter pick out special weapons.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 02:49
I thought it was pretty well defined list earlier.

The units you usually take and how you usually field them and their point values specifically when you don't know who your opponent is as an all comers type list. The whole reason I asked about the standard was because I've heard it mentioned before. off my cuff if I was going for efficiency I'm not sure I'd add in plasma, so that I'd get the most out of the standard and bolters. But I don't play those armies so I won't say that's how they are fielded. Hell I've already mentioned I'm not orthodox in some of my configurations, as in I rarely get a psycannon on my strike squad. As you lose your force sword and storm bolter to get basically two higher str and rending, and you then lose out on being more effective in close combat for 10pts. The things you want to use a psycannon against aren't what a strike squad is good for, so you either combat squad them with the 2 psycannons into one group and the other for more mobile things or you keep it stationary, and in that regard I'd rather go with henchmen because they do it cheaper. Which means I lose less with each casualty.

List the squads how they are usually taken from the respective codex, and their point costs and any synergy that is usually taken with that squad. Like I did with henchmen, I don't always take my full gunline henchmen, but when I do I always have an aegis line and coteaz. I don't always take assassins but when I do at the min it's always got a techmarine or xenos inquisitor with radiation grenades and psychotroke grenades.

That kind of thought and consideration is all that's needed. It's all that's needed for an objective comparison. Take the above plasma example, against terminator it's vastly superior I would imagine. I'd also imagine there are many chances to hit more than 2 with it and many where you don't hit but 1.

-edit-

What I want is a list like I provided earlier, I thought that by asking and then providing what I was asking for from a grey knight perspective it'd be easy to figure out what I was asking for. Apparently I'm incorrect and you keep insisting on isolated examples and not just providing an example like I did. Math can follow if it's really necessary, but math only deals with very specific situations that don't really reflect a whole game.

If I tell you I've got a squad with x abilities and y cost and there's another squad that has X abilities but Z price, you can generally quickly figure it out without some innane scenario cooked up to prove a point.

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 03:00
Same Dark Angels Squad under Banner of Devastation Vs. Terminators at 12 inches...
Bolters - 28 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail = 56/36 kills
Plasma - 2 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 2/3 fail = 20/36 kills
Plasma Cannon - 5/6 shoots, 2 hits, 5/6 wound, 2/3 fail = 100/108 kills
Total - 3 and 1/27 kills, 64 points per kill

Grey Knights vs Same Terminator Squad at 24 inches ignoring rends, of which there should be at least 1
Bolters - 16 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/6 fail = 64/36 kills
Psycannons - 8 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/6 fail = 80/108
2 and 14/27 kills, 87 points per kill

Ah, well. You've managed to find a place where Grey Knights are worse, provided the Dark Angel player paid the 165 more points for the Banner. So, one situation out of...I think we're on 6 or 7 now, where they are not head and shoulders above everybody else. But keep moving the goal posts further, I think they're in the stands by now. You've gotten your point for point comparisons against Dark Angels with a Banner of Devastation backing them up, and Chaos Marines. But Vastly superior it is not, and that comparison doesn't even factor in the things that the Strike Squad has innately, such as Deep Strike, perfect Deep Strike defense or the ability to drop Monstrous Creatures in melee with a single successful wound.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 03:03
********.

Maths deals with all the issues, it's just the complexity of the math that increases.

It's been asserted, that individually grey knight squads are under costed.
You've asserted that they pay a reasonable amount. The maths doesn't stack up with that.

So what you want to know do, is say that unit comparisons aren't valid. I'm sorry, but they are. Sure, synergies are important but I'm asking you to provide the cases you want to examine.

What you are doing at the moment, is saying "here is my army" "post your army and we'll compare who is more cost effective". The reality is that you'll accuse people of posting soft lists, you'll make baseless assertions that other lists have more synergy. A few days ago because people probably had real life to deal with, you were claiming victory. Now you are moving the goalposts to move away from any statistical analysis of advantage, and into the area of feel-good soft analysis so that you can feel like the 47/4/11 you wear on the sig of your posts is earned, rather than admit that you may have had any help at all.

So.

Do you think that compared to space marines in general, grey knights aren't he most powerful faction.
What do you fear from space marine units, to come up against in battles.
By what mathematical benchmark do you think grey knights, in particular strike teams should be measured?

Because at the moment, what I see is a list that not only has under priced MEQ equivalents with anti-meq close combat weapons and mobile mid range firepower, but the ability to bestow scoring status on non-scoring units in a game that is frequently based around whether scoring units are in the right place at the end of the game. Just saying.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 03:04
you're again not just providing the units and the costs and what they do and how they interact within the army. we're also not up to 6 out of 7, we're 1 out of 2 scenarios, power armor and terminators if you can tell me what the other 5 scenarios are but near as I can tell it's been a repeating of one scenario 5 times, and it's still not clear if that's how they are fielded. I just downloaded the dark angels codex so I can look at the options myself to some degree.

Excessus
06-05-2013, 03:07
Give it a rest guys, he's just trolling you...

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 03:10
Give it a rest guys, he's just trolling you...

Yeah, I think I'm done with this one. After providing the best possible outcomes for an MEQ troop choice being buffed beyond every other MEQ, they still come short of Grey Knights. That applies to the 2 Chaos squads that were provided, the Black Templar squad provided, the Space Wolves squad provided. The thread has either reached the point of trolling, or sheer stubborn stupidity.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 03:13
like off hand if I was fielding the veteran squad mentioned earlier, the configuration wouldn't be one to mirror the grey knights it'd be entirely different.

squad of 10, drop pod, combi-flamers most likely or melta depending on how I'd want their role to be.

The anti infantry/everything but terminators would be 220pts +35pts for a drop pod. the anti-terminator vehicle version would be the same but 10pts more if just upgrading flamer to melta, or another 30pts to change the flamers to plasma and add melta to the seargant.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 03:15
Yeah, I think I'm done with this one. After providing the best possible outcomes for an MEQ troop choice being buffed beyond every other MEQ, they still come short of Grey Knights. That applies to the 2 Chaos squads that were provided, the Black Templar squad provided, the Space Wolves squad provided. The thread has either reached the point of trolling, or sheer stubborn stupidity.

It's easier to just jab points without actually addressing anything. No chaos squad has been provided, no space wolve squad was provided, no black templar, so far we have dark angels only and in a vacuum of how they are fielded and without the other units in the army. If trolling is trying to get the debate to actual facts and not just "they are good" sure I'm king troll. If you're not going to contribute information and just opinions don't bother posting.

Craftworld
06-05-2013, 03:20
It's easier to just jab points without actually addressing anything. No chaos squad has been provided, no space wolve squad was provided, no black templar, so far we have dark angels only and in a vacuum of how they are fielded and without the other units in the army. If trolling is trying to get the debate to actual facts and not just "they are good" sure I'm king troll. If you're not going to contribute information and just opinions don't bother posting.

Wait- didn't you say that all marines were roughly equal earlier? Why would you need to compare each and every book? If you're better than one, you're better than them all, logically, correct?

Ssilmath
06-05-2013, 03:21
I know I said I was done, but for your perusal. Not a single one of the examples provided below is going to perform any better than the Dark Angels under a Banner of Devastation.


10 man tactical squad with ML or MM plus plasma gun in a Rhino is 215, so 21.5 points for the 10 marines, counting the Rhino as an upgrade.

10 SS with psybolts and 2 psycannons in a Rhino: 280, o 28 points for the 10 marines, counting the Rhino as an upgrade.
So 6.5 points more then the vanilla marines.

The SS is more mobile with their shooting power, the special weapons more all-round capable, and the damage output in the 12-24" range is greater. They are also more capable in assault and can lock down a large area from deepstrikers.
7 wounds versus T4 before armour save with the stormbolters, 2 or 4 with the psycannons, depending on stationary or not.
Tacticals do 2.64 at long range, or 5.28 at rapidfire range. Plasma adds 0.54 or 1 wound, MM/ML does 0.13 or 0.54 depending on stationary or not.

In melee, the SS kills 2.5 marines (with Force activated) if charged by BA assault marines with FC/FNP, whom kills 3 marines back.
If the GK charge, the assault marines does 1.56 wounds, while the SS does 4.75 wounds (or 6.27 if the enemy marines don't have FNP).

EDIT
BA assault marines are 210 points with 2 meltaguns, or 225 if a PW is added. Priests are 90 points with a PW, but usually benefits 2 squads, so lets say that the BA assault marines are 24.5 points per marine.
As already noted, they barely wins in melee when charging, much less if the the GK SS gets 1 or 2 shooting phases plus overwatch.


Blood angels - 75pts plus vehicle for 5 men and a melta, because they can.
Wolves - 155pts for 10 and two special plus the cost of any cc perks and transport
DA/vanilla - 170 for 10, missile launcher and flamer. CC weapons extra.
Templars - 101 for 5 marines, lascannon, plasmagun

Fair bit of variety on offer.


10 Man Grey Knight Strike Squad: 200 points (this is without upgrades)

10 Man Dark Angel Tactical Squad: 200 points (Added Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, Veteran Seargant with Chainsword, Melta Bombs and a Plasma Pistol in upgrades)

10 Man Chaos Space Marine Squad: 200 points (Added Plasma Gun, Flamer, Close Combat Weapons, Mark of Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch OR Plasma Gun, Plasma Gun, Mark of Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Gift for Mutation in upgrades)

10 Man Grey Hunter Squad: 195 points (Added Plasma Gun, Plasma Gun, Power Sword, Banner OR 200 points: Meltagun, Meltagun, Power Fist, Mark of the Wulfen or Plasma Pistol in upgrades)


10 man Strike Squad, with 2 psycannons. Some like to give the Justicar a Daemon Hammer, but for a fair comparison the CSM champ would then need a powerfist, so I'll skip it.
GKSS, 2 psycannons. That is a unit people would actually field, and costs you 220 pts.

Lets compare with a similar CSM unit. A plasmagun is inferior to the Psycannon against just about everything, infantry and vehicles, except 2+ save models within 12", and you can't assault after shooting it, and it gets hot. But for fairness sake, the CSM are given 2 plasmaguns to be somewhat on par. Just as it happens, quite a few think that is the best guns to give a 10-man squad of CSM, so hardly unrealistic.

To be as versatile as the GKs, they need übergrit, and most people seem to think it is worth it too. The champ is given a power weapon or lightning claw (my favourite is a single lightning claw personally).

The closest CSM have to ATSKNF is a chaos icon which grants fearless, which is both better and worse than ATSKNF, so for fairness sake, they should buy that too. I'll skip giving them a mark, because then it just becomes silly. Or skip fearless and give then a mark, as the fearless icon is so expensive.

The CSM unit now costs 215-230 pts, which is about the same as the GKs, yet they are inferior in almost every way.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 03:38
Wait- didn't you say that all marines were roughly equal earlier? Why would you need to compare each and every book? If you're better than one, you're better than them all, logically, correct?

Comparing one component of an army to one other and saying that since that component is stronger at this one task, it's stronger than the other armies is ridiculous. Blood angels fast rhinos/tanks etc are better than any other equivalent any other army has, are they automatically better?

As for your storm of quotes Ssilmath, my favorite quote has to be this one.

10 Man Grey Knight Strike Squad: 200 points (this is without upgrades)

10 Man Dark Angel Tactical Squad: 200 points (Added Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, Veteran Seargant with Chainsword, Melta Bombs and a Plasma Pistol in upgrades)

10 Man Chaos Space Marine Squad: 200 points (Added Plasma Gun, Flamer, Close Combat Weapons, Mark of Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch OR Plasma Gun, Plasma Gun, Mark of Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Gift for Mutation in upgrades)

10 Man Grey Hunter Squad: 195 points (Added Plasma Gun, Plasma Gun, Power Sword, Banner OR 200 points: Meltagun, Meltagun, Power Fist, Mark of the Wulfen or Plasma Pistol in upgrades)

So much utility added and power added to those squads but I'm assuming somehow that's glossed over because the plasma and meltas added all over the place there increase the cost dramatically of the unit and when comparing against killing 4+ armor or 3+ armor they factor in less, but when compared with 2+ or say armor they do amazingly well...

We have comments like
As already noted, they barely wins in melee when charging, much less if the the GK SS gets 1 or 2 shooting phases plus overwatch.

Which just simply won't happen, if an assault squad is positioned in a way where grey knights get 2 shooting phases on them, they are playing badly. 1 round + overwatch is reasonable, and this will be AFTER said assault squad has reduced the strike squad down by at least a model or two at least from their shooting.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 03:54
Comparing one component of an army to one other and saying that since that component is stronger at this one task, it's stronger than the other armies is ridiculous. Blood angels fast rhinos/tanks etc are better than any other equivalent any other army has, are they automatically better?

They are better. They are also 42% most expensive. They aren't that much better.
Do you have a lot of problems with squads in a Rhino in 6th ed? If not then this is a false argument.



Which just simply won't happen, if an assault squad is positioned in a way where grey knights get 2 shooting phases on them, they are playing badly. 1 round + overwatch is reasonable, and this will be AFTER said assault squad has reduced the strike squad down by at least a model or two at least from their shooting.

He said 1 or 2. It's not impossible to get two turn of shooting.
In any event, his point is that even if the grey knights DON'T get a single round of shooting, then the assault marines are roughly equal ON THE CHARGE with the grey knights, and losing after that first round.
That's with no shooting, which grey knights are much better at. How are they going to take out at least a model or two with 10 bolt pistols, which may even deny them the assault.

Can you not see how obstinately and ridiculously bad your argument is.
In this example the assault marines are almost absolutely going to lose if they take a single round of fire, and even if they avoid this, they are more likely than not to lose the assault. And these aren't assault marines that are much cheaper than the grey knights squad they are assaulting, and they are assault specialists.

Surely you have to concede that at least in this limited example, the grey knights are going to come out ahead?

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 04:10
What is my argument? That grey knights are just as good as other space marine chapters, not "head and shoulders better" as has been claimed.


So what did I do to try and prove my statement? I provided the grey knight army to compare with, what I got was an individual case situation brought in an isolated vacuum. So what about my argument is obstinate and ridiculously bad? The part no one is willing to talk about? Its clear you don't want to deal with the overall composition of things, it's clear you do not want to compare them with their point values and how they are normally fielded. It's why I started a new thread to deal with it the way I've been asking, because apparently those involved here just cannot accept that style of critique, it has to and must be compared in vacuums and in ideal situations rather than just comparing how they are taken and letting a reader decide from there.

Take you for instance, you keep harping on "what unit" is giving me problems and I could easily list units that have in the past given me some sort of problem, but I learned and moved on. Take tryannids for example, their babymaking unit gives me problems often, not because they or what they produce are particularly effective at killing me, it's that they tarpit my dreadknights often, or my strike squad. They make my army ineffective. Whatever unit however gives me problems, doesn't do one bit for the argument one way or the other of if grey knights are head and shoulders above all other space marines.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 04:15
What is my argument? That grey knights are just as good as other space marine chapters, not "head and shoulders better" as has been claimed.


So what did I do to try and prove my statement? I provided the grey knight army to compare with, what I got was an individual case situation brought in an isolated vacuum. So what about my argument is obstinate and ridiculously bad? The part no one is willing to talk about? Its clear you don't want to deal with the overall composition of things, it's clear you do not want to compare them with their point values and how they are normally fielded. It's why I started a new thread to deal with it the way I've been asking, because apparently those involved here just cannot accept that style of critique, it has to and must be compared in vacuums and in ideal situations rather than just comparing how they are taken and letting a reader decide from there.

Take you for instance, you keep harping on "what unit" is giving me problems and I could easily list units that have in the past given me some sort of problem, but I learned and moved on. Take tryannids for example, their babymaking unit gives me problems often, not because they or what they produce are particularly effective at killing me, it's that they tarpit my dreadknights often, or my strike squad. They make my army ineffective. Whatever unit however gives me problems, doesn't do one bit for the argument one way or the other of if grey knights are head and shoulders above all other space marines.

Strike Squads are head and shoulders over troop choices in other MEQ.
There's no useful way other than supposition to compare your army list to someone elses. Which is your intent.

Do you think strike squads are better than tactics for their cost, equal to tacticals, or weaker than tacticals?
Do you think strike squads are better than assault marines for their cost, equal to assault marines, or weaker than assault marines?
Do you think strike squads are better than sternguard marines for their cost, equal to sternguard marines, or weaker than sternguard marines?

For a minute here, let's put aside the GK list as a whole, and focus on one unit. I'm arguing that strike squads are just damn good.
Let's discuss that, then we can talk about things that grey knights take that are weaker than alternatives, or "synergies" that are better.

Because at the moment, you won't concede that strike squads are better than other equivalent squads.
If you can't concede a frankly obvious statement like that, let alone concede that the math is pretty compelling, then there's no reason to start making things more complicated. If you are unable to grasp the basics, there's no way you will engage with a more complicated discussion.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 04:49
Do you think strike squads are better than tactics for their cost, equal to tacticals, or weaker than tacticals?
Do you think strike squads are better than assault marines for their cost, equal to assault marines, or weaker than assault marines?
Do you think strike squads are better than sternguard marines for their cost, equal to sternguard marines, or weaker than sternguard marines?

I have no idea because assault marines aren't utilized the same way and their points and gear make things different. The most valid comparison I can think of is when the troop basic marine just takes bolters and nothing else, and likewise the strike squad to take no upgrades. But as we know the options make a difference and it gets harder and harder to compare them without taking their role and intended use in mind.

The fact that you find it "obvious" that strike squads are obviously better than equivalent squads is why we're having this discussion. Just looking over the blood angels and dark angels codex this is what I see.

For dark angels 10 man squad.
140pts base without upgrades, 14pts apiece.

Blood angels
160pts base without upgrades, 16pts apiece.

Grey knights
200pts base without upgrades, 20pts apiece.

Base gear difference dark/blood angels have bolters grey knights have storm bolters. Grenades strike squad gets an added grenade that only affects psyker types and for melee they have a force sword.

For options the dark/blood angels have much more variety, and the ability to take drop pods which make options like flamers much more appealing considering the drop pod rules, and also the ability to get flamers and mass wounds right where you want turn 1.

So as to the strike squad being obviously better? 1 full strike squad at 200pts is clearly superior a basic dark angel tactical squad at 140pts and superior to a full blood angel tactical squad at 160pts. point wise are they superior? not sure.

When discussing their upgrades, I'd probably tip my hate to a drop pod unit with flamers myself. outside of that, for against other troops the strike squad is the better and superior choice. The ability to handle things at a range of greater than 24inches? the angels win it hands down with their options. For assault? that goes to the strike squad.

For all these things for their points? that's a iffier issue.

KhornateLord
06-05-2013, 04:55
What options do either tactical squad have for outside 24"?
One heavy weapon.

You can compare the assault squad, to the strike squad in close combat. You can compare them in shooting.
I'm not sure what other mythical use assault squads have, but when they are "iffy" to win an assault against a squad orders of magnitude better at shooting, it get's interesting.
We can make comparisons between dark angels, with twin flamers in drop pods and assume massive amounts of hits on the grey knights, and work out how likely this is to mean they will win such an engagement.
This is the kind of information that is useful from you, because we can run these scenarios and see how it pans out.

I can't do it now (i'm at work) but I will post in here with the results of such a match up.


And FWIW, my assertion that strike squads are better, was an assertion that they are better on a points comparison.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 05:19
and that's the thing on a points issue at shooting other marines, I personally stay with just a full strike squad with psybolt ammo, I find that the higher strength and occasional rend not worth the 20pts and the losing of a force sword. (in my lists this tends to mean I'm losing 4 warrior acolytes with bolters...)

I think the most valid comparison in shooting would be with dark angels tactical squad without an upgrade and then having 15 vs the 10man with psybolt or to compare the 10man vs a drop pod set up with flamers. Without a factor of assaulting I would wager the dark angels are superior in this troop option.

Vs Chaos, I'd imagine it's similar but I haven't found their codex yet.

wanderingblade
06-05-2013, 05:58
I really don't get this argument.

I'd say its pretty obvious that Strike Squads pack more punch for their points in terms of their equipment than other MEQ. Its pretty obvious. Just like Marines pack more punch for their points in terms of their equipment than Guardsmen. GW - rightly imo - take the point of view that if you force an army to buy elite troops all the time, they need a bulk discount. Because if you priced all the gear the same, they just wouldn't work. There'd just be too much investment for what you get.

Now, maybe there is too much of a bulk discount for Grey Knights. I'm no expert, I don't know.

But I do feel pretty sure you won't find the answer in running direct comparisons between a Strike Squad and other MEQ troop choices without considering the rest of the army or how they perform against targets than each other. Yes, of course the Strike Squad will win most of those, they're carrying Power Weapons, this isn't rocket science. What happens against hordes? What happens against vehicles? Perhaps more importantly to me, what happens when a battle cannon or squad of plasma cannon devvies just wipes the unit out? How many friends have they got left to carry on the fight? The Grey Knight premium starts to add up after a while.

If we were just to compare Guard with Marines, we would believe that Marines are undercosted and overpowered. This is not so when you consider the whole armies. I don't believe the same line of logic just changing the armies will get anyone particularly far.

I don't have anything to add as to how to do a full comparison mind!

totgeboren
06-05-2013, 07:50
Perhaps more importantly to me, what happens when a battle cannon or squad of plasma cannon devvies just wipes the unit out? How many friends have they got left to carry on the fight? The Grey Knight premium starts to add up after a while.

The thing is that they don't actually pay that much of a premium when you factor in upgrades. For example, some like SS with 2 psycannons, giving them respectable anti-tank and and infantry weapons, some like to just give them psybolts, meaning they kill more at range than even basic Noise Marines.

The cost for this squad is about the same as the cost of a commonly seen basic CSM squad with upgrades. I know CSM have access to cultists, but GKs have access to cheaper and better henchmen if they want, or just Guards (whom are better than cultists in every way), so I don't think that messes up the comparison all that much.

Those who want to play a pure GK list are in a similar situation as those who want to play a pure CSM list, in that they have access to cheap fodder if they want to take it.

What you can do with CSM however is to make a basic squad that is quite versatile, almost as versatile as a GK squad without going silly on the upgrades. You get a unit that is fairly reasonably costed (2 plasma, pw on the champ, übergrit, mark or fearless), and these guys cost the same as a GKSS.

If we compare with a squad using two psycannons, the big difference for CSM is that they have half the firepower over 12", they cannot hurt AV14 at range (each psycannon is comparable to a lascannon vs vehicles), they cannot shoot twice and assault, nor use their plasmas at all and assault. The plasmas get hot, which the psycannons do not, not to mention that if the CSM assault, they will kill about the same numbers as they will lose, whilst if the GKSS assault, it will be a massacre of the CSM.

So the GKSS cost about the same, but are better vs light infantry, heavy infantry and all vehicles, not to mention their psychic defenses and immunity to being overrun in close combat. Costing the same but being better in every way is hardly paying a premium.

I however agree that having lots of buffs should give you a sort of discount, otherwise you get units like the CSM Chosen, who become silly expensive if you give them any upgrades. But this can be implemented badly, just compare the cost of a upgraded Purifier squad and an upgraded Strike Squads...

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 08:05
You do know a psycannon is str 7 assault 2/heavy 4 ap 4 and rending with a 24inch range right?

Comparing that to a lascannon is a bit over the top, str 9, ap 2, 48 inch range. I have a sneaking suspicion that people don't use troops to take out tanks except in extreme situations, they usually use them to hold objectives or take out other troops and little else, so why tool them to maybe take something other than infantry out?

As for the henchmen, I agree they are good, but it's them in conjunction with a character that make them worth while. Likewise taking Guard is the same, it's how they work with a character that make them worth while. if you notice in my above examples I made, I listed how I load out the characters with em and their role then, because they are potent then, otherwise they are really just pure fodder and that's it. I'd be really surprised if the henchmen were flat out better than the cultists, but would be interested to see the actual comparisons there. my only experience against chaos has been across from them on the table. And to be honest they were several of my losses. like I've lost 40% of my chaos matches.

totgeboren
06-05-2013, 08:36
You do know a psycannon is str 7 assault 2/heavy 4 ap 4 and rending with a 24inch range right?

Comparing that to a lascannon is a bit over the top, str 9, ap 2, 48 inch range. I have a sneaking suspicion that people don't use troops to take out tanks except in extreme situations, they usually use them to hold objectives or take out other troops and little else, so why tool them to maybe take something other than infantry out?

As for the henchmen, I agree they are good, but it's them in conjunction with a character that make them worth while. Likewise taking Guard is the same, it's how they work with a character that make them worth while. if you notice in my above examples I made, I listed how I load out the characters with em and their role then, because they are potent then, otherwise they are really just pure fodder and that's it. I'd be really surprised if the henchmen were flat out better than the cultists, but would be interested to see the actual comparisons there. my only experience against chaos has been across from them on the table. And to be honest they were several of my losses. like I've lost 40% of my chaos matches.

I give you that the psycannon has worse range than a lascannon, but even when moving the psycannon has a 33% higher chance of scoring a penetrating hit vs an AV 14 vehicle than the lascannon. The lower AP however makes it 33% worse at scoring a Destroyed result. However, this is a comparison between a stationary lascannon and a moving psycannon. If the psycannon stands still, or is carried by a terminator, it instead has a 33% higher chance of scoring a destroyed result outright (and has a massive 167% higher chance of scoring a penetrating hit than a stationary lascannon!) And when it comes to just removing hullpoints the psycannon wins out with similar numbers.

I must honestly say that you give the impression of not having played with many other armies than GKs (I don't mean that as an insult, I mean it as in you seeming to have a rather narrow frame of reference in what people tend to expect in capabilities for the points they spend).
The weapons and abilities of the GKs almost feel like they were made for another game, and the psycannon is a great example of that. It is a better anti-tank gun than the anti-tank guns of other armies, a better anti-infantry gun than the anti-infantry guns of other armies, and you can even move and fire with it, and it is mounted on infantry. Oh, and you can take two on a basic troop squad, who also blow other troops for similar points out of the water.

Or look at the Turbo-penetrator round of the Vindicare assasin. If you do the numbers, you need three(!) Tau hammerhead tanks with railguns to have the same chance of scoring a destroyed result vs an AV 14 tank. That is, the Tau, who are known for their fearsome weaponry, need to fill all their heavy support with their best anti-tank model to be as good vs tanks as a single elite-choice assassin from the GK book. And quite a few GK players do not even seem to notice this discrepancy in power level between their units and the units on the other side.

Try switching armies and see if you can manage a similar W/T/L record against GKs as you have done using them.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 08:54
If you want to compare things that way you'll of course think things are op.

A vindicare equal to three hammer heads? sorry no. yeah 3+4d6 is pretty much an auto pen, and they nearly always hit. 36inch range that can't move and shoot without snap firing is vastly different than a str 10 ap 1 round with 72inch range that can move and fire and is on a tank chassis. (or prior to this codex, twin linked and mounted on a 2 wound terminator....)

Psycannon chance of penetrating a av 14 tank...
2/3rd chance of hitting, 1/6th + 2/3rds chance of penetrating. (6+7=13, so you're counting on a rend and a roll of 1-2 is still a glance) so your odds of penetrating are not near as good as a lasscannon, 1/3rd it removes a hull point and 1/6th it rolls on damage chart. Any av 14 vehicle is a threat long before 24inch range, and if it's within 24inches it's in a very critical window as they usually transport something nasty and if they aren't, they are super nasty in and of themselves.

As you can tell before I sold my tau I had a similar record going with tau, the psycannon is not better anti tank than the following: Lasscannons, Meltaguns, str 10 melee weapons, Railguns, gauss weapons en mass, fusion weapons, and I'm sure there are more examples (like conversion beamers etc)

Allornone
06-05-2013, 09:15
You do know a psycannon is str 7 assault 2/heavy 4 ap 4 and rending with a 24inch range right?

Comparing that to a lascannon is a bit over the top, str 9, ap 2, 48 inch range.

I once made a comparison between assault cannon and Lascannon that showed that Assault cannon are mathematically better against every kind of vehicles, but it was when rending was thought to be AP 2 against vehicles.
So let's see.

Lascannon at BS 4 (2/3 hit) against

AV 10: 66% chance of a hull point lost, 55% chance of a Penetrating hit, 18% of a explode result
AV 11: 55% chance of a hull point lost, 44% chance of a Penetrating hit, 14% of a explode result
AV 12: 44% chance of a hull point lost, 33% chance of a Penetrating hit, 11% of a explode result
AV 13: 33% chance of a hull point lost, 22% chance of a Penetrating hit, 7% of a explode result
AV 14: 22% chance of a hull point lost, 11% chance of a Penetrating hit, 3% of a explode result


Psycannon at BS 4 (2/3 hit for 4 shots), calculate for AT LEAST one result, against

AV 10: 90% chance of a hull point lost, 80% chance of a Penetrating hit, 18% of a explode result
AV 11: 80% chance of a hull point lost, 63% chance of a Penetrating hit, 14% of a explode result
AV 12: 63% chance of a hull point lost, 37% chance of a Penetrating hit, 7% of a explode result
AV 13: 37% chance of a hull point lost, 37% chance of a Penetrating hit, 7% of a explode result
AV 14: 37% chance of a hull point lost, 25% chance of a Penetrating hit, 5% of a explode result

So yeah, you can see here that the ONLY case which a Lascannon is better than a Psycannon is for getting exploded result against a AV 12 vehicles, for which the Lascannon is 1.5 times more effective. Of course the Lascannon usually cost TWICE the points of a Psycannon, so at equal point value the psycannon is still more effective. Yes, the lascannon has more range, but at the same time you can move and shoot with the psycannon and lose only half the shots, so if with the same points you have bought two psycannons you are still better.


I have a sneaking suspicion that people don't use troops to take out tanks except in extreme situations, they usually use them to hold objectives or take out other troops and little else, so why tool them to maybe take something other than infantry out?

The fact is that while other troops need to be tooled up in a specific way to take out tanks, yours don't. At the same price one give one if his troops a weapon specialized for vehicles (lascannon) you give yours two of a weapon that is better against every target. Necrons are famous for having troops being able to rip apart tanks. And 221 points of warriors
are worse than 220 point of GKSS against every AV except 13 and 14.

When your GENERIC unit at an equal point value is on par or better in many cases than specialistic unit of other armies, you have to admit that maybe they are a little overpowered. 6th edition nerfed Grey Knight, true, but at the same time taking an Immortal Tyrannosaurus and removing its immortality still leave you with a Tyrannosaurus. The fact that even after this nerfing are still one of the best armies talks much about how powerful they were.

totgeboren
06-05-2013, 09:20
Did you forget that the psycannon has 2/4 shots?
If we assume the same BS.
1 lascannon shot, 1/6 glance, 1/6 pen.
1 psycannon shot, (1/6)*(1/3) glance, (1/6)*(2/3) pen times the number of shots we fire (for simplicities sake. Of course the psycannon can score 4 pen in one round, but some easy maths to show the phenomena).

This gives us:
Lascannon: 17% glanse, 17% pen, 5.5% destroy

Psycannon, 4 shots. 22% glance, 44% pen, 7.5% destroy.

As the numbers for the psycannon are superior to the lascannon in every situation, and the lascannon is seen as a credible anti-tank gun, how can the psycannon not be a good anti-tank gun? It is much better than the lascannon at least.

And regarding the Turbo-penetrator. I think it it has somewhere around 80% chance of scoring a hit that penetrates, so a 40% of destroying an enemy tank. The hammerhead has an 11% chance of destroying an enemy tank. As said, it seems like they were made for a different game.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 09:22
so if we make the result beyond 24inches 0% chance we realize the lascannon is superior in every way to the psycannon.

If we have your results for the assault value of it while the troops are moving (because most tanks have a range greater than 24inches and can move at the same rate of the troops carrying lascannons... we realize again that the lascannon comes out ahead.

It's amazing how cherry picking your scenario makes your stance seem solid and without flaws.

-edit-
Hammer head has much a much better chance of hitting and doing damage due to marker light support or characters like "longstrike" that let them fire at bs 5 and/or remove cover saves.

Vindicares, I can tell you I've had a ton of games where he was dead turn 1 or 2. It's amazing how quickly he'll get shot at with str 8+ weapons at long range, because one failed cover save and he is vaporized.

totgeboren
06-05-2013, 09:29
On the other hand, it's not too hard getting within 24" when you can deep strike. And lets not forget the Psyfleman Dread and assassin that can take out vehicles at range with ease, leaving your psycanons to mow down infantry much more efficiently than what other MEQs can, as they don't have stormbolters (with S5 possibly), and they also have to make due with a single heavy bolter instead of two psycannons. So 3 non-rending S5 shots vs 4/8 S7 rending shots.

If you present a plausible scenario, the GKs come out on top every time. Of course, if there is a 36" chasm between the GKs and a horde of lascannons, the GKs will suffer (unless they just deep strike instead), but I have yet to play such a battle.

*Edit a response to your edit*

Ok, a Hammerhead shooting an AV 14 tank behind cover, who gets +1 BS and ignore cover has about a 14% chance to kill the enemy tank. The Vindicare has a 27% chance. So the Vidie is still 2 times as good as the Hammerhead in the worst case scenario in comparison to the Hammerhead, and then the Hammerhead need three markerlights to even reach that level. You might consider that balanced, but it is hardly fun for the opponent, and makes no sense at all. He has just got a sniper rifle. No way that should be 2-3 times as potent as the best vehicle-mounted anti-tank gun in the game.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 09:40
When you deep strike you're risking things. Interceptor rules, mishaps, and the dice gods deciding to not let your unit come in when you need it.

Then to top it off you've got two shots when you land from it, which reduces it's effectiveness dramatically.

Pointwise you don't take psycannons to mow down infantry, you take incinerators or you just don't take anything and maximize your efficiency of your storm bolters. On a unit basis you certainly take out other infantry better than most infantry, the problem is when you factor in points and things outside perfect math bubbles.


If you present a plausible scenario, the GKs come out on top every time. Of course, if there is a 36" chasm between the GKs and a horde of lascannons, the GKs will suffer (unless they just deep strike instead), but I have yet to play such a battle.

Drop pod assault, your turn as grey knight, nothing to shoot at, their turn, two pods land and take out your critical points with zero chance of missing or not coming in.
36 inches? how about every deploy set up, there's at a min 24inches between you and your opponent, if they are going second, they merely have to deploy at 31inches.

A non ap 1-2 weapon for at range just doesn't cut it for me, if the cost effective dreadnoughts weren't competing with Dreadknights I'd go for that part, but they are just too worthwhile for it to take dreadnoughts imo and they eat up the points and make dreadnoughts not easy to take as well and dreadnoughts just don't have the armour value to ensure they live, one good roll and they go up in smoke. (this is true of all vehicles and one thing I really despise about anything with less than 13 armor)

Excessus
06-05-2013, 09:46
Drop pod assault, your turn as grey knight, nothing to shoot at, their turn, two pods land and take out your critical points with zero chance of missing or not coming in.
36 inches? how about every deploy set up, there's at a min 24inches between you and your opponent, if they are going second, they merely have to deploy at 31inches.
It's not like the only weapons in your whole army have 24" range, or why not teleport a jump MC in terminator armour into his midst to create some mayhem, or interceptors...or just advance. Yeah, he might stay outside your 24" range and take pot shots with the few weapons with long range he has of your models in cover...but that will certainly not give him control over any objectives...and from turn 2 and forward, the GK troops will be in range...


Oh, btw, won't Coteaz be happy to see those droppods? :)

Allornone
06-05-2013, 09:48
How can't you possibly understand how much invincible are the grey knight Lantskev? Let's put them against other overpowered armies. Imperial Guard for example. You charge a blob of 50 guardsmen with 5 purifier all with falchions. You'll always kill at least 30 models in 1 round of combat with 5 models, and then swept the rest. 5 models destroyed 50 in 1 round. So it's evident that grey knight are AT LEAST 10 times more powerful than guards. And Necrons? A squad of purgators with 4 Incinerator can easily kill a unit of 20 necron warriors. So, even if the result is that necrons are better than guards, Grey Knight still destroyed 20 models with only 5, and so it's clearly evident they are 4 times better than necrons.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 09:51
Of course things change, the point was to criticize his ridiculous comment about never starting out in range of 24inches and somehow also saying they need to be 36inches away. the fact that every scenario by default starts you at a min 24inches away from your opponent (and that's assuming you both deploy right to the limit of deploy zones.

I'll tell you right now interceptors are a rubbish unit in the grey knights codex. Teleporting dreadknights though? yeah they are worth every penny of their 295pt cost.

melgorth
06-05-2013, 10:57
I think your counter-point is equally as ridiculous in that case with your Grey Knights not doing anything on their turn while waiting for this drop pod assault you know is coming the next turn instead of casting Warp Quake, which is readily available on your core troops, to create 12 inch bubbles of safety around the units that these drop pods cannot land in. That would go a good long way towards negating their effectiveness I would think.

Excessus
06-05-2013, 10:58
I'll tell you right now interceptors are a rubbish unit in the grey knights codex.
I know, and you know what's funny? They can still be extremely killy! As I stated before, I'd love to have interceptors instead of warp talons in the chaos codex, any day!

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 11:51
Melgorth, if they have first turn it's a non-issue. but yeah there are things that can be done but aren't always done.

What are the stat line and points of your warp talons?

khidi
06-05-2013, 11:57
Of course things change, the point was to criticize his ridiculous comment about never starting out in range of 24inches and somehow also saying they need to be 36inches away. the fact that every scenario by default starts you at a min 24inches away from your opponent (and that's assuming you both deploy right to the limit of deploy zones.

I'll tell you right now interceptors are a rubbish unit in the grey knights codex. Teleporting dreadknights though? yeah they are worth every penny of their 295pt cost.

Teleporter on the DKnight IMHO isn't worth the points, I would rather take something else for those points. Also Drop Pods aren't "auto-hits" without locator beacons which are either carried by scouts or come with Stormravens (which 3 out of 5 Marine codecies get, not everyone) or other Drop Pods, you can still scatter out of the table or behind LOS blocking terrain or terrain that will give the target unit cover saves or just simply too far away

Magic words being "in the GK codex". And yet I would gladly take that "rubbish" unit any day. They are assault marines w/ stormbolters and pwr swords + once in game "turbo-boost" yet cost only 3pts(4pts if DA) more than assault marine w/ stormbolter IF they could even take one. Vanguards would be 50pts per marine with both SB and pwr Swords though they would have 1 attack more. And both are still missing psychic mischief, psybolts and teleporters.

And if you are playing with GK, why wouldn't you deploy as close as possible? Your (Grey Knights) effective range is 24" and less for most units and unless you are playing short edge to short edge, your opponent can't run that much anyway.


Maybe this was mentioned before, tried to read whole thread but can't remember if it came up.

GK Termies get both grenades as default (ignoring psychic toys for now) though Kraks aren't that hot. The moment you take your first Termie squad you save atleast ~240pts compared to other Termies, while Tactical or TH/SS Termies won't really benefit from those, LC Termies or DA DWKnights would kill for frags as would TDA ICs. While Land Raider is a good tank, you will either sacrifice HS slot for it so it could be a scoring unit in one mission or you take it as dedicated to save HS slot but give up the scoring possibility. Not to mention that GK Termies have grenades for the whole game instead of one or two times when you use LR for those.

And you don't want to be anywhere near ANY kind of MC even with the Land Raider. Most if not all cases facing atleast 2, and likely more, s10 ap2 hits, hitting with 3+ and re-rolling armor penetration.

And still, GK Termies cost the same as "normal" Termies while getting much more stuff.

And the point that others have already made still stands, GK don't have much smaller numbers when compared to other Marine armies and while GK SS for example is more expensive as default, other Marines come close to the same price while being inferior in most if not all ways after upgrades. Or in case of Vanguard Veterans or DA Veterans much more expensive with less stuff.

Of course GK SS will lose shooting contest with Tacticals unless they have MM (which I might sometimes try but it really isn't used ever normally) IF SS just sits in place and takes that HB/Plasma cannon/Missile/Lasc in the face without being able to shoot back. Just like any other shooting unit in the game.

Grey Knights don't have smaller numbers than other Marines, they are not paying premium for most of their toys and get some very critical things for free.
While wound allocation sillyness has been removed, the codex is still very strong.

khidi
06-05-2013, 12:04
Melgorth, if they have first turn it's a non-issue. but yeah there are things that can be done but aren't always done.

What are the stat line and points of your warp talons?


Warp Talons are 160 for 5, 3+/5++ models with 1 attack in statline, dual LClaws, fear, possible blind test when deep striking, NO grenades or ranged weapons. Normal marine ws/bs.

Dreadknight
06-05-2013, 12:10
How can't you possibly understand how much invincible are the grey knight Lantskev? Let's put them against other overpowered armies. Imperial Guard for example. You charge a blob of 50 guardsmen with 5 purifier all with falchions. You'll always kill at least 30 models in 1 round of combat with 5 models, and then swept the rest. 5 models destroyed 50 in 1 round. So it's evident that grey knight are AT LEAST 10 times more powerful than guards. And Necrons? A squad of purgators with 4 Incinerator can easily kill a unit of 20 necron warriors. So, even if the result is that necrons are better than guards, Grey Knight still destroyed 20 models with only 5, and so it's clearly evident they are 4 times better than necrons.

I totally disagree on this. Yes for certain scenario's GK have a solid option for it...but now take in the point costs. You can't take all those units who are nice for a certain role because (at least I do) I don't know what enemy I'm facing. Roll 3 dreadknights??? Nice unless you face some mindshackels etc. Roll mass PAGK? Nice untill you face 2 or more heldrakes. That's why I want a balanced list with units who can back each other up.

And shunting a 260point dreadknight in the middle of your enemy just to cause rare faces will end up with a death dreadknight who have done almost nothing. I play GK and CSM and I think every codex have nice options. Just to make a balanced list and run it well is the problem...and way more difficult than shouting "Cheese" and "overpowered".

Gaargod
06-05-2013, 12:25
On the one hand, thankfully, GKs do have some weaknesses. They're very mediocre >24". They're still marines, so mass Ap3 shooting hurts (cf. Heldrake); because their shooting is better (and you pay for it), and thus you tend not to take rhinos/razorbacks, they can actually suffer worse for stuff like that than most. Although they're excellent in combat versus marines, versus hordes or Termies they're not nearly as efficient.


However. They're still absurdly good, for a lot of reasons.

For example, something I don't think anyone has brought up yet - one of the main purposes tacticals are used for is their special/heavy weapons. These guys are actually remarkably prone to dying to precision shots (the new Tau codex in particular has loads of options for this), each kill of which severely weakens your unit. Killing psycannons in a GKSS weakens the unit, but they're still toting S5 stormbolters. Killing a sergeant with PF totally wrecks a tactical squad's ability to fight most things, whilst GKs lose 1 extra attack, a challenge and 1 point of LD - a pain to lose, for sure, but not nearly as bad as losing all of that and your expensive specialist weapon (of course, a Justicar could take a hammer, and usually does, but their hammers are pretty cheap and can be taken on other models too).
GKs are more expensive, dude for dude. But because of the special weapons you take to boost their ability, the tactical's price is often equivalent, and they have those points tied up in a few models, who can be sniped out.


I know, and you know what's funny? They can still be extremely killy! As I stated before, I'd love to have interceptors instead of warp talons in the chaos codex, any day!

That's usually an indication something's broken, when a 'bad' choice in one codex would be a good choice in most others.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 12:43
Warp Talons are 160 for 5, 3+/5++ models with 1 attack in statline, dual LClaws, fear, possible blind test when deep striking, NO grenades or ranged weapons. Normal marine ws/bs.

the point about the deploy wasn't if you as a grey knight wouldn't deploy but your opponent. I don't know a single one with ranged options that won't deploy out of 1st turn shooting range. of course this is why I roll on strategic table for warlord traits in the hopes I get choose night fighting.

What are the wartalon initiiative btw?

khidi
06-05-2013, 12:57
Warp Talons are regular marines when it comes to statline, i4.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 13:38
are they at least jump troops and are there any upgrades they can take?

Scammel
06-05-2013, 13:43
They're jump troops and have access to marks and VotLW (though they pay a small premium on these compared to other CSM units).

Dreadknight
06-05-2013, 14:26
And don't forget, the CSM have also access to bikes, spawns and raptors. And although you can't compare them all, you can choose the unit which fits it's roll best in your CSM list.

If you want a fast unit to pop vehicles etc, you could go with raptors with dual melta. They do so well in CC, but that's what you pay for. With the interceptors, yes you have all unusual force swords but what use are they if you are shooting?!

Scammel
06-05-2013, 14:38
With the interceptors, yes you have all unusual force swords but what use are they if you are shooting?!

They are useful for chopping when the enemy doesn't want to be shot at anymore, or you don't want the enemy to shoot back. Flexibility isn't a bad thing, you know.

khidi
06-05-2013, 14:46
They are useful for chopping when the enemy doesn't want to be shot at anymore, or you don't want the enemy to shoot back. Flexibility isn't a bad thing, you know.

Also makes sure that they are not charged by random MCs or Nobs/Nid warriors or other PA units just because they happen to be in charge range.

Dreadknight
06-05-2013, 14:51
Flexibility is perfect, always try to obtain as much as possible. The point with Grey knights is, that you pay almost always for flexibility even when you don't want to. And that's exactly the biggest downside of GK: point costs. If a GK player looses 5 standard power armour guys, it hurts. If you loose 5 standard CSM its not funny but not that big deal.

A small story in addiction, I played a tournament a few months ago with my vindicare assassin...but he decided to took a day of. He missed quite a few times / rolled bad (to low) for armour penetration / rolled a 1 on the damage table chart. And that hurts! I rely that if I should a vindicator on the side armour, it will become a useless piece of steel. If that happens a few times you will loose the game. WIth other armies the chance to roll average is higher because you roll more dices.

The same goes up for a Dreadknight. I use them with teleporter, sword and incinerator. Few games ago I rolled 3 snake eye's out of 4 armour saves (vs orks)...this really hurts!

Fear Ghoul
06-05-2013, 15:15
A small story in addiction, I played a tournament a few months ago with my vindicare assassin...but he decided to took a day of. He missed quite a few times / rolled bad (to low) for armour penetration / rolled a 1 on the damage table chart. And that hurts! I rely that if I should a vindicator on the side armour, it will become a useless piece of steel. If that happens a few times you will loose the game. WIth other armies the chance to roll average is higher because you roll more dices.

Doesn't the vindicare roll 4D6 for armour penetration, and is therefore more likely to roll average than 4 individual lascannons?

Luffwaffle
06-05-2013, 15:20
When talking balance, crappy dice rolls should never be used to justify any side of the argument.

totgeboren
06-05-2013, 16:38
Doesn't the vindicare roll 4D6 for armour penetration, and is therefore more likely to roll average than 4 individual lascannons?

True in a sense, though it rolls 4D6, ads its strength of 3 and a D3 for each 6 on the 4D6. This means it has about a 50% chance of rolling at least one 6, which means that it in that case should get an average AP of 19. If it rolls no 6, it instead gets an average of 17.
The chance of getting a total of 14 or less (so no penetrate at least) is a bit below 20%. So over an 80% chance to pen, and then a 50/50 chance of destroying, so a 40% chance in total.
4 lascannons at BS 4 only have a 15% chance of outright destroying an AV14 tank.

Farouk
06-05-2013, 18:29
Are you disputing the numbers? Would you like me to post the formula?
- post #189

I am disputing your numbers, because I have different numbers in all of your cases. I think you must have some error in your formula.
Just one example: You say, 10 BS4 shots have a 77% chance of scoring at least 5 hits. I say that chance is 92%.

The formula for chance C of exactly x hits:

C(x)= ch^x * (1-ch)^(ns-x) * (ns choose x)
x = exact number of hits you want to find the chance of
ch = cance to hit with BS4: 2/3
ns = number of shots: 10
(You can also modify "ch" to "chance to hit * chance to wound (* chance to fail a save)", if you want the chance of wounds before saving respectively unsaved wounds, instead of just hits.)

So in this case:
C(x) = (2/3)^x * (1/3)^(10-x) * ( 10! / ( x!*(10-x)! ) )

C(5)=0.137
C(6)=0.228
C(7)=0.260
C(8)=0.195
C(9)=0.087
C(10)=0.017
adding up to 0.924 (or the 92% which I mentioned earlier)

On the main topic: I agree with your point, that a squad of GKs with Psybolt ammo is much better than SMs (in both shooting and melee) and undercosted. But your math doesn't fly, as far as I can tell.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 22:04
are they really undercosted compared to fielding 15 tactical marines of dark angels? specifically when you factor in the affects wounds have on performance?

MagicHat
06-05-2013, 22:15
Which just simply won't happen, if an assault squad is positioned in a way where grey knights get 2 shooting phases on them, they are playing badly. 1 round + overwatch is reasonable, and this will be AFTER said assault squad has reduced the strike squad down by at least a model or two at least from their shooting.

Roughly:
Situation 1: If the GK player gets first turn, he can set-up as close as possible and if the BA player takes the challenge, the GK player moves up a few inches and shoots. After the 12" move the BA player will need to roll about 9, 10 or 11 to charge the GK and will likely fail. So GK gets another turn of shooting.

Situation 2: If the BA player deploys 30.1" from the GK player, the GK player moves back to try and recreate situation 1.

Situation 3: BA have first turn, deploys as far forward as possible. GK deploys about 5" from the line and attempts situation 1, either moving backwards or forward, depending on the BA moves.

At the same time, the BA player should avoid a situation where they ends up closer then 12" to the GK, because a GK charge is disastrous for them.

There are of course tons of stuff that influences this. Do the GK player have a Rhino or not, LOS blocking terrain, the GK player could deploy behind terrain, slowing the BA players charge, one side could bring superior long range firepower, forcing the other player to advance. (GK being the primary reason that I got myself PC devastators for my BA army).
So I am going to disagree with your assessment that assault marines getting two rounds of shooting at them are being played badly.

Every turn of shooting, 10 SS with psybolts and psycannons deals about 1.5 kills against MEQ with FNP from the SB and 0.65 (moving) or 1.3 if stationary with the psycannon, so 2-4 assault marines are dead before getting in range, depending on how many shooting phases.
the remaining assault marines (10 marines with 2 meltaguns, power sword 8 or 6 remaining) kills 1.7 or 1.5 from shooting, assuming everyone is in range, which is not a given. (no cover assumed BTW, nor for the GK shooting above, could have affected the rending)
So 2 dead. 0.58 killed from overwatch. Standard Assault marines kills 2, sergeant with power sword kills 1.32 (this is why I advocate halberds on Justicars in my group), the GK kills 2 back, assuming Force is activated (superior to HH versus FNP).
If the Assault marines fails their charge, or the GK catches them, they do 3.25 wounds and the Assault squad does 1.75.

The reason SS brings psycannons is the same as the reason BA assault squads bring meltaguns. GK and BA troops are often the workhorse of their army , and is required to be flexible in their role and capable against a wide array of targets. If the enemy is all meched up, you can bring either dedicated AT for some 100+ points in some other squad, or add 20 points to a SS, letting them do something.

lantzkev
06-05-2013, 23:49
I like how you're ignoring the fact that if the grey knights stay out of 24inches in your scenarios, they are just letting themselves stay open to whatever the other army is fielding that's got a range beyond 24inches.

If I was in your situation and the grey knights refused to be in a situation where they couldn't get 2+ rounds of shooting in, I'd happily let him. As blood angels everything you have gets there quicker than grey knights. Grey knights MUST advance or they lose through attrition, loss of points, or they get tied at best. Opponents that insist on always getting as close to their opponent like you're suggesting are just dumb players period.

If the situation where you disagree is with a bloodthirsty opponent who can't moderate himself for a few turns, no wonder you think grey knights are op and have such an overwhelming advantage. Grey knights anti tank is really only melee, there are options and possibilities, but none of those are true "use this and you'll kill a tank" options like most other armies have. In particular since our ability to hurt a land raider is laughable. There are few landraiders that give two ***** about about 24inch range weapons against them.

totgeboren
07-05-2013, 05:22
Grey knights anti tank is really only melee, there are options and possibilities, but none of those are true "use this and you'll kill a tank" options like most other armies have. In particular since our ability to hurt a land raider is laughable. There are few landraiders that give two ***** about about 24inch range weapons against them.

Grey Knights have better anti-tank on their basic troops than any other MEQs (2 psycannons standing still are about as good anti-tank as 3 lascannons, and they have a 24" range so don't say meltas are superior. If 24" range is not enough to qualify as a useful weapon, 6" can hardly be better), and they have access to the best (by a large margin) anti-tank gun in the game (The Vindicare), but as it only has a 36" range I guess that doesn't qualify as good anti-tank gun either?
Psyfleman has a 48" range and is incredibly cheap (just compare with a Forge Fiend, which does the same but for 50% higher cost and with a worse range), and funnily enough the Psyfleman excels at taking out AV12 and below, exactly the sort of units where the psycannon and Vindicare does not excel.

GK have the best marine melee units, the best ranged anti-tank weapons of all armies and the best ranged anti-infantry of all marines. What they don't have is the best range on all their units.

*edit*
And yes, GKs do not have access to drop pods, which means normal marines do Deep Strike better. They must however pay for those pods, and suddenly the tactical marine unit with upgrades are starting to cost more than a GKSS. Normal deep strike is not a bad tactic provided you are shooty enough either (which the GKs are, as they are much shootier than normal Marines, and we see normal marines in drop pods all the time). For example, CSM have used terminators with special weapons successfully a long time, so there is no reason why GKs should not be able to utilize the same tactics (unless the argument is that the GKs need the very best of anything for it to be worth it for them to use?).

Stacius
07-05-2013, 06:21
This whole debate is going around in circles now. Absolutely every point being made, concerning how grey knights are STILL a very very competitive army, and how they compare to other marine forces is either being ignored or being twisted. I'm all one for healthy fun debate, but a point does come where you really are talking to a brick wall. In my opinion, note the my opinion part, Grey Knights are the best all round marine dex. They can outshoot a dedicated assault force and outfight a dedicated shooty one. No, I am too lazy to work out the numbers and will just go with my experience, which includes numerous tournaments. In the hands of a good player, barring misfortune of dice, they easily have the ability to win any game. Not many other dexes can say that. They are forgiving of mistakes, unlike dark eldar, as are other marine dexes. So, no. They are not a paper tiger. Unless its some kind of uber sharp, razor filled, space paper tiger rampaging through space jungles eating giants by the shed load.

Wanders off yelling 'bridges for sale'.

Dreadknight
07-05-2013, 07:37
When talking balance, crappy dice rolls should never be used to justify any side of the argument.

My point is, if you have 1 very good unit (like the vindicare) it will really hurt when bad dice rolls makes him useless. If you have instead multiple less good units, bad dice rolls on 1 of these units will hurt less because you have other units as well.

A simple example, the average roll on 2D6 is 7. If you roll only 2D6 you will get more deviation from 7 then when you take an average over 10D6.

For me, this is the strength of orks. BS2 is not that good, but with so much models shooting at BS2 it's more likely that you will shoot average instead of hoping you don't miss that 1 lascannon shot.

Dreadknight
07-05-2013, 09:45
Grey Knights have better anti-tank on their basic troops than any other MEQs (2 psycannons standing still are about as good anti-tank as 3 lascannons, and they have a 24" range so don't say meltas are superior. If 24" range is not enough to qualify as a useful weapon, 6" can hardly be better), and they have access to the best (by a large margin) anti-tank gun in the game (The Vindicare), but as it only has a 36" range I guess that doesn't qualify as good anti-tank gun either?
Psyfleman has a 48" range and is incredibly cheap (just compare with a Forge Fiend, which does the same but for 50% higher cost), and funnily enough the Psyfleman excels at taking out AV12 and below, exactly the sort of units where the psycannon and Vindicare does not excel.

GK have the best marine melee units, the best ranged anti-tank weapons of all armies and the best ranged anti-infantry of all marines. What they don't have is the best range on all their units.

But in the end, GK are the most expensive army and you can't take all the fancy shiny toys...In the end they are still marines with a 3+ armour save or terminator armour. Nothing more or less then other marines!

I see why people like to adress GK as overpowered but it can also be because people don't know how to exploid the weaknesses of the Grey Knights...and they surely do have weaknesses!

Konovalev
07-05-2013, 13:34
How does GK deal with a triple baledrake chaos space marine army? After reading the "Why The Helldrak Isn't That bad" thread, I see many angry posters are calling Chaos the top army thanks to triple baledrakes. So, to those who say GK is the top army, how do you envision GK deals with the triple drake threat?

For those who might not know the baledrake has:
5++ at all times
S7 vector strikes
Torrent S6 cover ignoring flame template that defeats MEQ armor,
AV12 front and sides
Can regen hullpoints.

totgeboren
07-05-2013, 13:37
But in the end, GK are the most expensive army and you can't take all the fancy shiny toys...In the end they are still marines with a 3+ armour save or terminator armour. Nothing more or less then other marines!

I see why people like to adress GK as overpowered but it can also be because people don't know how to exploid the weaknesses of the Grey Knights...and they surely do have weaknesses!

No army can take all the fancy toys at the same time, and GKs don't really cost more than other marines when you take upgrades into account, which has been shown in many examples in this very thread!

What weakness do they have that other marines do not? They have the same weaknesses as other marines, except they are not weak in combat, nor at range, nor do they need to chose between having good anti-infantry weapons or good anti-tank weapons, all for the price of costing about the same.

Seriously, non-cult CSM armies without cultists tend to have about the same number of models as GKs. Normal marines with lots of termies and landraiders have the same numbers as a GK army with lots of termies and dreadknights.