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Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 17:40
In the "worst players" thread there are many stories of players who are known to be trouble makers, and yet, the establishments nor the player bases seem to do anything more than passively warn occasional patrons who might fall victim to such players. Is this a trend? I'm afraid it seems to be.

I'm not talking about the borderline guys, like the model inchers or the guys who shrug and feign oopsies in their lists, or that sort. No, I'm talking about the straight up, irredeemable pieces of **** who are actively disruptive or a consistent problem. I've heard so many stories about guys who flip out, scream, yell, break things, etc. ... a lot of them end with "Eventually they banned him" but a lot of them also have a person telling the victim "Oh yeah that guy is a jerk we have problems with him all the time."

I am perhaps alone in being overzealous about this but it just seems to me like these people don't learn their lessons because no one ever bothers to teach those lessons to them with a sound "Get the hell out." I know of a shop around my way that allowed a kid to take his fist and in a blind rage shatter a squad of all-Forgeworld marines, and the store allowed the kid to continue to play that day and instead of throwing him out they offered $100 of the prize pool to the player whose stuff got destroyed. Ridiculous!

How are these bad eggs dealt with in your gaming worlds?

Ozendorph
30-04-2013, 17:48
As a TO/Judge I've never had to toss a player out, but I'm very direct when addressing misbehavior. As a player, I haven't had to put up with any such nonsense in a very long time. I do remember dealing with local knuckleheads back in 2nd edition, but the details have been worn away by time and the crashing waves of booze.

bad dice
30-04-2013, 17:49
Well depends

In the gameing club those usely get a stern look and tend to discover that they have a hard time finding opponents.

In a tournament i usely just finish the game and let it slide.

That might seem weak. But I am there to have fun, not to reeducate ppl on the finer points of gamer educate.
I mean sure they might be d bags but giving them anny thing else than a shrug.
Is like wrestling a pig in the mud. You'll both get dirty but only the pig likes it.

Phaeron Setek
30-04-2013, 17:52
We had a guy in our gaming group who was a total douche. He traded his army weekly for the newest net list, rolled his dice one at a time no matter the situation, and would either throw a tantrum or pack up and leave mid-game because he was losing (as we love to pick apart net lists). So, when the gaming group's weekly game night got moved to my apartment, I told him he wasn't invited (well, I said he could sit on the porch outside).

The worst part was he would ride with one of our friends who he was "bestest buddies" with, so in the long run we lost two players because one was ruining our good time.

Theocracity
30-04-2013, 18:29
I'm going to bet that a lot of problem players get a pass because a lot of gaming groups are linked to stores - either GW or an LGS. The owners of these places probably have to make a calculated balance - throwing someone out or banning them from tournaments risks losing a customer.

Sure, you might lose other customers if the bad seed drives them away. But that's a 'might.' Its also possible the reprobate could be reformed, or leave on his own before he drives others away (but after he's made a few more sales). If you throw him out now, his revenue is definitely gone.

It's a hard balance for a manager to make, and I don't envy them.

Chapters Unwritten
30-04-2013, 20:06
I don't think it's a hard balance at all.

One person acting that way might turn away or upset countless other customers. And if the guy is a cting that way at a tournament, you are essentially guaranteeing at least four people have a bad experience...one that they paid for, no less.

Charistoph
30-04-2013, 20:29
I don't think it's a hard balance at all.

One person acting that way might turn away or upset countless other customers. And if the guy is a cting that way at a tournament, you are essentially guaranteeing at least four people have a bad experience...one that they paid for, no less.

That's how my LGS owner and employees look at it. If they think you'll be a black mark on how the store looks, they will encourage you to leave. With 2 of them are ex-military with plenty of other ex-military types hanging out there, most usually follow that encouragement or correct their behavior.

Theocracity
30-04-2013, 21:24
Well, I think it's a matter of degrees. I bet some managers might look at their monthly sales numbers and say "this guys being a jerk, but not enough of one that people will leave immediately. As long as he's buying stuff and has the possibility of reforming or leaving, I still need him for now." Obviously that can change if he's consistent enough that people drop out or it he's being physically abusive. But a few outbursts isn't going to do it - we've all been there, and I bet that managers give any paying customer the benefit of the doubt if they're just being a jerk.

Edit: Reread your original post, and realized you're talking about the more extreme cases. I still think there's a financial incentive for store owners to not ban people, but the question does become where they draw the line.

In general I think it's easier for a club owner to ban people, even if they have the financial incentive of membership dues. You want to keep loyal dues-paying members happy, after all. By contrast a loyal store gamer might have not made an in-store purchase since 1998 (as exaggeration), so a toxic member who buys a new army every month might get more slack.

Sir Didymus
30-04-2013, 22:29
That's how my LGS owner and employees look at it. If they think you'll be a black mark on how the store looks, they will encourage you to leave.

Sounds great :)


With 2 of them are ex-military with plenty of other ex-military types hanging out there, most usually follow that encouragement or correct their behavior.

Or what? They'll whip out their AKs and UZIs and bury you in the desert??? No seriously, I'd really dislike being in a store, or having my kids frequent one, where military training was a prerequisite for handling customers - if force is needed, you call the cops. Which is what the OP should have done after the forgeworld marine bashing vandalism incident.

darthslowe
30-04-2013, 22:45
Sounds great :)



...if force is needed, you call the cops. Which is what the OP should have done after the forgeworld marine bashing vandalism incident.

This, this, this, one million times this! If someone throws models at me, I call the cops for assault. If someone smashes my stuff, I call the cops for vandalism. Look, I know that traditionally the people that play wargames (you know, us) are not considered alpha males, and, while that isn't always true, my experience has been that the majority of us are not ex-military or ex-jock or whatever. We tend to be passive because that is simple our personality type (there's nothing wrong with that, I actually think it's a good thing), but when I hear stories about things like property being destroyed or players being assaulted I cringe. This just isn't acceptable behavior and should be reported to the authorities.

I know that most of the time we don't call the police because we think things like, "Oh, maybe he's having a bad day", but think about it. If someone is willing to assault a stranger at a public gaming store then they have serious anger issues that need to be dealt with. In the case of grown men acting that way then you can be guaranteed they are worse at home. In the case of kids, they need to learn that acting that way is NEVER okay, and if a brush with the authorities will do that for them then it will benefit them for life.

I really think that the reason we gamers let things slide is for two reasons: 1. We don't want the confrontation and 2. It's inconvenient to confront someone. It takes time and police and other things, I'm sure. We should just do it anyway.

This all, of course, applies to only the really bad.

Ssilmath
30-04-2013, 22:57
It's not that ex military people bringing force down upon miscreants is the point. It's that having four or five guys (Or gals) hanging around who can clearly handle themselves is a strong disincentive for people starting fights or causing physical damage. If you call the cops, it takes time for them to arrive, and people know that. So having people on hand who can stop such behavior and keep things restrained until the police do show up is a nice thing to have.

Nilo
30-04-2013, 23:08
Or what? They'll whip out their AKs and UZIs and bury you in the desert??? No seriously, I'd really dislike being in a store, or having my kids frequent one, where military training was a prerequisite for handling customers - if force is needed, you call the cops. Which is what the OP should have done after the forgeworld marine bashing vandalism incident.

Actually they don't have to do anything. I used to run a hobby shop and a couple of our regulars were military, ex-military and one security guard and honestly people with that type of training have an air of authority and confidence that tends to stop outlandish behavior before it starts. I don't think anyone was actively trying to acquire military personnel for their gaming store, but in my experience a lot of those guys like war gaming (go figure). That being said I do agree that it's the police who should handle situations that get out of control, but usually if they get that far out of hand it's because the issue wasn't addressed early enough.

Luckily our store was small enough to keep an eye on everything from one spot. I think a lot of store employees are content to let gamers head into a basement or back room and leave them to their own devices for hours, concerning themselves only with the sales at the register. I avoid those places. Personally, I wouldn't think twice about ejecting someone from my store for being intentionally disrespectful or violent (and I've done so in the past), but I'd want to witness it for myself. Most hobby store owners, even the very avaricious ones, are aware that one frequent customer is not worth a bad reputation. Sadly many may not be fully aware of what's happening in their own store.

Charistoph
01-05-2013, 00:13
Or what? They'll whip out their AKs and UZIs and bury you in the desert??? No seriously, I'd really dislike being in a store, or having my kids frequent one, where military training was a prerequisite for handling customers - if force is needed, you call the cops. Which is what the OP should have done after the forgeworld marine bashing vandalism incident.

Hardly. It's rather short-sighted and bigoted to think that someone ex-military is going to be using violence. It's more this:

It's not that ex military people bringing force down upon miscreants is the point. It's that having four or five guys (Or gals) hanging around who can clearly handle themselves is a strong disincentive for people starting fights or causing physical damage. If you call the cops, it takes time for them to arrive, and people know that. So having people on hand who can stop such behavior and keep things restrained until the police do show up is a nice thing to have.
And this:

Actually they don't have to do anything. I used to run a hobby shop and a couple of our regulars were military, ex-military and one security guard and honestly people with that type of training have an air of authority and confidence that tends to stop outlandish behavior before it starts. I don't think anyone was actively trying to acquire military personnel for their gaming store, but in my experience a lot of those guys like war gaming (go figure). That being said I do agree that it's the police who should handle situations that get out of control, but usually if they get that far out of hand it's because the issue wasn't addressed early enough.

And the store is big enough to make things challenging if all the tables (22, I think) are being used, but they are all withing easy eye distance of the register.

Grenzstein
01-05-2013, 00:32
My club has never had an issue with booting people; but that's probably because we're comprised of 'bros' and military folks. People are less likely to cause physical harm to others or their property, when they know there will be direct ramifications for their actions.

If some socially maladjusted person thinks that they can throw their weight around and intimidate others, and get away with it, they will. So one just needs to create a setting where order is enforced through group peer-pressure.

Nikolaus
01-05-2013, 01:38
I'm going to bet that a lot of problem players get a pass because a lot of gaming groups are linked to stores - either GW or an LGS. The owners of these places probably have to make a calculated balance - throwing someone out or banning them from tournaments risks losing a customer.

Sure, you might lose other customers if the bad seed drives them away. But that's a 'might.' Its also possible the reprobate could be reformed, or leave on his own before he drives others away (but after he's made a few more sales). If you throw him out now, his revenue is definitely gone.

It's a hard balance for a manager to make, and I don't envy them.

exactly this.. all the ones that havent gone OTT in my experience, have been the ones that spend at least 100 every week on the newest net list or ~350 a month on the new army...

so when they play up instore and get told off.. would you risk losing maybe your only big spender for the day/last few days?

There is an ******* who acts 3 when he loses despite being in his forties.. but spends nigh on a grand a month.. we have to put up with his hobolike behaviour because the manager is too afraid to lose that income.


At the end of the day.. GW and LGS are there to make money. Gaming Groups already have dedicated members or enough members to meet their quota to afford to ban the disruptive childsih *****.

Charistoph
01-05-2013, 02:29
Sure, if he's dropping $400 a month, it can be hard, but if he's driving away $1000 a month, than it becomes easier.

Nikolaus
01-05-2013, 03:18
Sure, if he's dropping $400 a month, it can be hard, but if he's driving away $1000 a month, than it becomes easier.

thing is.. for a gw.. it barely survives during the week.. its the weekends they make the money and that when the dude is working..

so when he comes in bright and early on wed (some UK GW's close mon and tues now.. mostly due to rise in rent and loss of profit being open 7 days a week).. and drops 400 (~$850), on a new list.. or first wed of the month and spends 1k (not includin the 2-3 other times he visits)

its odd as he is the smelliests foul mouthed person i have ever met.. yet works 4 days a week.. and considering his spending pattern must earn easily 40k a year to have 20k disposable income to spend on new minis a year.

when he spends that much in a store.. he wont be kicked out unless he does something really bad.

and the loss is minimum.. just the vets that GW doesnt care a jolt about anymore..

why would they want someone that spends 50 a month on a unit or paint.. when they get at least 62 from the starter box at least 1 a day.

Coldhatred
01-05-2013, 03:59
Yeah, it can be a hard balance when it comes to the manager doing something, and the line has to be tightly walked. Maybe this is why some GW stores seem to be closing open gaming, to limit these types of incidents. . .I don't know, just spit balling, but I wouldn't allow such behavior, and there would be three strikes and that's it, period. I can be the nicest guy in the world, but you cross me one too many times and the discussion is done.

Bookwrak
01-05-2013, 06:28
I'm going to bet that a lot of problem players get a pass because a lot of gaming groups are linked to stores
No, I don't see this as being the case at all. Just going by what's been posted in the recent threads on here, and from dealing with people in general, the reason why jerks, trouble makers, and losers are tolerated and so very rarely dealt with is pretty clearly explained by the fact we're seeing Geek Social Fallacies expressed in real time.

bossfearless
01-05-2013, 06:54
Seeing as how I posted a good number of stories to that thread, I can say that the majority of shop owners do nothing in these cases. Usually the person in question spends a lot of money on the hobby just like anyone else, and so the store owners are reluctant to take the hit to their own wallets. Plus, they didn't open a gaming store to play sheriff and keep everyone playing nice, that's not their job.

Rick Blaine
01-05-2013, 07:38
People who become geeks are the ones who can't stand up to bullies in school. What makes you think they would be able to stand up to bullies in a game store?

fgsfds-
01-05-2013, 07:48
I don't think it's only up to the store personel to correct one's behaviour, if there's a troublemaker in the store. They don't always have the time to monitor everyone in the store, or they simply can't throw paying customers out of the store no matter how weird they act. Of course the other customers can't throw the guy/gal out of the store etiher, but they can most certainly stand up for theirselves or go back someone up if they see he/she is being harassed. Usually when these hooligans realize they're alone against two or three people, they leave the scene. And it's not like you have to be unpolite to them or go to their level: the guys who throw tantrums act like little kids, so the correct way to treat them is to treat them like 5-year-olds.
But no-one really wants to intervene.

This doesn't happen only in gaming stores/events/clubs. It's somewhat of a common trend (at least here in Finland) to "mind one's own business". A friend of mine told me that she had seen this 20-something guy harassing young (about 15-years old) gilrs on the train, and no-one did antything even though the girls really seemed scared. Apparently the girls had asked the guy whether he could give them some cigarettes, and after giving them some he had been following the girls around (apparently expecting some sort of a "payment"). My friend was the only one who intervened. Not even the train personel had stopped to help the girls, even though this situation had been going on for some time already. And no-one came to back up my friend, even though there were many guys who could've thrown the guy off the train when needed.

MadmanMSU
01-05-2013, 12:03
The reason you don't hear about more "corrective action" cases is because it's probably just not that common. Generally speaking, 10% of any average population of people are going to be the trouble-makers. And of that 10%, only 1 in 10 will be a serious offender.

In all the time I've been gaming, I think I've had one mildly bad game, where the guy was a douche. He wasn't a regular, and he was just annoying more than anything. I think the vast majority of people run in groups of people that they enjoy being with, which means there isn't much opportunity for bad behavior.

Theocracity
01-05-2013, 13:32
No, I don't see this as being the case at all. Just going by what's been posted in the recent threads on here, and from dealing with people in general, the reason why jerks, trouble makers, and losers are tolerated and so very rarely dealt with is pretty clearly explained by the fact we're seeing Geek Social Fallacies expressed in real time.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I agree with fgsfds that sometimes people don't step up when they should, but even if they do there's no garauntee that they'll be able to do anything. The manager of the location is the only one with real authority to step in (barring the cops or special situations), and since they're not running a day care they're not going to do it unless its being really disruptive and in their financial interest. Heck, if someone stands up to the bully, the manager might walk into a big yelling match and decide everyone's at fault - standing up to a jerk may not mean you get to be judged in the right.

I was very amused by one of the stories in the worst players thread about a guy who broke someone's land raider. The manager caught him and told the perp that he could either be permenantly banned, or buy the victim a new land raider. Now that's a manager with an eye on the bottom line! :D

Nikolaus
01-05-2013, 14:36
The reason you don't hear about more "corrective action" cases is because it's probably just not that common. Generally speaking, 10% of any average population of people are going to be the trouble-makers. And of that 10%, only 1 in 10 will be a serious offender.


I have to agree here.. all my bad stories have happened over the last 13 years in the hobby and the most recent being 2 years ago.

we still have that smelly foul mouthed guy.. but he is only in once a week at most or once a month at least.. so his impact is less than it should.. but he does empty the store of people.. even mid game people pack up and leave, because he hovers..

someone has passed out before.. maybe he is Nurgle embodied?

Lokust
02-05-2013, 02:09
People who become geeks are the ones who can't stand up to bullies in school. What makes you think they would be able to stand up to bullies in a game store?


This is pretty silly. The local players include a lot of active and ex military, and don't really fit that stereotype. That said, generally speaking the worst behaving people in my area have frequently been ones who spend the most at stores, so that may be why they get a pass.

Fithos
02-05-2013, 04:39
One of the regulars at the game store I go to is a police officer. When people get out of line he politely reminds them of what legal actions can be taken against them and they either simmer down or stop showing up. Of course that isn't something he can do to stop people cheating, but it significantly cuts down on the assaults and public indecencies.

papabearshane
02-05-2013, 05:13
People who become geeks are the ones who can't stand up to bullies in school. What makes you think they would be able to stand up to bullies in a game store?

This is such nonsense, I am a Football coach, ex-army, jock and Bully (well I love practical jokes and when I was younger I hade very little reguard for anyones feelings)

I have many friends who are like me and are in the hobby to. As a self proclaimed "Geek" I have to say that there are some maladjusted people in the Geek world there are just as many very normal people who will take these kinds of situations into there own hands and stand up for those who dont or cant stand up for themselfs.

As far as the ex or current military hobbyists go there are TONs out there, its amazing how easy it is to get a RPG/Table Top/Board Game when on post.
There are Navy ships that actually have a table set up in the gally/mess for table top gaming!

FraustyTheSnowman
02-05-2013, 05:40
It's funny people keep mentioning the ex/current millitary thing as the unofficial bouncers of their local. In my experience that group causes more problems than they solve by thinking their time spent in boot camp somehow made them into badasses, and their rank somehow transfers to some sort of position of authority in the civilian world. This isn't to say I have issues with people in the military, not at all, just that my own experiences are polar opposite of what's been said so far.

As for the original question...the worst I've ever seen is people throwing tantrums and tossing their own dice against a wall, but that was years and years ago at a D&D game at the local college. I've never seen anyone flip a table or purposely break someone elses miniatures. Never know until you're there and all, but I think if someone fisted a squad of my miniatures, forgeworld or not, one of us would be going to the hospital.

Locally we have a guy who stinks, regularly screws up rules in his favor, has been known to go hundreds of points over, and loves to call anything his opponents army can do cheese. He's not terrible, but he sure as hell isn't that great either. A lot of the more competitive minded players just correct him when he's wrong on the rules and treat the points difference as a handicap. The smell and general social akwardness is anoying, and there's people who refuse to play him, but all in all there's pleanty worse people out there.

Now that we have an actual shop and aren't playing in the college or library we're getting an influx of shop rats. These are the ones I don't like. Their anoying little gribby fingers picking everything up without asking, constantly pestering about simple basic rules...a lot of the time while your having a conversation with someone else...swearing every other word because they want to be impressive, wanting to play in the tournaments when they bearly have half the points (that one I was pissed off at the TO for allowing it...).

JWhex
02-05-2013, 06:19
I must be lucky because I have never observed these really extreme over the top bad behaviors in my local stores. At my favorite place to game there are always a lot of other games going on, cards, boardgames, FoW etc aside from 40k. It seems to me that the most intense gamers are the 40k crowd (except for MtG tourneys).

Swordsman
02-05-2013, 06:32
So one just needs to create a setting where order is enforced through group peer-pressure.

Succinctly said, brother. Just have a strong foundation for your club or gaming store, and these people tend to disappear.

tu33y
02-05-2013, 09:31
the most unpleasant person I know in the hobby at the moment is a senior GW staffer. incredibly dismissive, arrogant, agressive sales technique. seems rude and domineering to his subordinates. this is a buck in the trend for me, as every single other GW shop person I have met, male or female, is friendly, enthusiastic and normally a joy to talk to. they are interested in your projects and yes they push stuff at you, because they HAVE to. but this guy is just, for want of a better phrase, an utter male chicken.

most other gamers I have met, with a handful of isolated exceptions, are really really nice people.

Abaraxas
02-05-2013, 13:06
People who become geeks are the ones who can't stand up to bullies in school. What makes you think they would be able to stand up to bullies in a game store?

I know this is da interwebz etc etc but Im a 6"2, 210 lb tattooed git with a skinhead and beard...really.
Im not saying Im not in some aspects a nerd, but its a bit much to assume all wargamers are puny,pimply faced geeks with coke bottle glasses.
Please note I am not an "internet tuff guy" that is 100% a description of my appearance.

IcedCrow
02-05-2013, 13:58
I've had to deal with these people as a tournament organizer. Its largely more problems than its worth to be honest. It causes a lot of drama and then those people run their mouth for months slandering you. People that don't know who you are get painted a largely negative image of your dictator ways. I found a blog last year from a guy we had to boot for his behavior who was still nine years later going on about me and my 'lackeys' and how corrupt we were. To this day, again nearly a decade later, I get people going "i've heard about you" from the stuff he said.

And I've had to deal with that scenario a handful of times. Today I'd rather just let them go on their way and keep my events private.

If there's one thing I learned coordinating events about human nature its that slandering is the easiest thing one can do because few people actually research what they hear and take what you're saying as gospel.

Dark_Kindred
02-05-2013, 15:36
People just need to stand up for themselves and not rely on the store owner to get **** done. There are a couple ways to go about this:

(1) Fight them with reason: He calls a unit/army broken, you develop a super intense spreadsheet demonstrating unit performance in a vacuum versus several different units and compare it to something another army can bring. He tailors lists, you explain that it's uber lame and that it does not actually "train" for tournaments.

(2) Talk him down: Most nerds spend their entire lives getting pushed around. Break the mold and watch as other people stand up for themselves. I did this once to "the tyrant" and then became the nerd alpha dog.

(3) Be passive aggressive: Just do not play him or refuse to play him until certain conditions are met. Social isolation is also effective.

(4) Initialize Troll Sequence: Use best units from his own codex to troll him, either as allies or as a stand alone army. Ex: take like 3 Manticores, 2 Vendettas, and mechanized melta-vets behind an ADL. LOL at him!

Formerly Wu
02-05-2013, 16:03
People just need to stand up for themselves and not rely on the store owner to get **** done. There are a couple ways to go about this:

(1) Fight them with reason: He calls a unit/army broken, you develop a super intense spreadsheet demonstrating unit performance in a vacuum versus several different units and compare it to something another army can bring. He tailors lists, you explain that it's uber lame and that it does not actually "train" for tournaments.

(2) Talk him down: Most nerds spend their entire lives getting pushed around. Break the mold and watch as other people stand up for themselves. I did this once to "the tyrant" and then became the nerd alpha dog.

(3) Be passive aggressive: Just do not play him or refuse to play him until certain conditions are met. Social isolation is also effective.

(4) Initialize Troll Sequence: Use best units from his own codex to troll him, either as allies or as a stand alone army. Ex: take like 3 Manticores, 2 Vendettas, and mechanized melta-vets behind an ADL. LOL at him!

Only #2 has any chance at solving the problem.

#1 and 4 are just doomed. You're playing their game, and no bad actor will admit defeat at their own game. At best, you're giving them an excuse to play the victim, which is a dream come true for them.

#3 doesn't solve anything, and runs the risk of making a toxic group dynamic even worse.

You'll only manage a situation like this by drawing a clear line of unacceptable behavior, and then enforcing it with rebukes. If they won't change and you don't have the authority to force them to, then just maintain that line and refuse to engage beyond it. Keep your cool, state your position, and don't get drawn into an argument. Leave if you have to.

Dark_Kindred
02-05-2013, 19:08
Only #2 has any chance at solving the problem.

#1 and 4 are just doomed. You're playing their game, and no bad actor will admit defeat at their own game. At best, you're giving them an excuse to play the victim, which is a dream come true for them.

#3 doesn't solve anything, and runs the risk of making a toxic group dynamic even worse.

You'll only manage a situation like this by drawing a clear line of unacceptable behavior, and then enforcing it with rebukes. If they won't change and you don't have the authority to force them to, then just maintain that line and refuse to engage beyond it. Keep your cool, state your position, and don't get drawn into an argument. Leave if you have to.

You do not need them to admit defeat publicly, you just need to show what an *** **** he is in front of everyone and that someone is willing to stand up to him somehow.

I've used the first three options and there has been no blow back. He bought his stuff online, was an *** **** at tournaments, and berated "bad players." Since we basically forced him out, morale has been much higher and the "bad players" have been learning a lot more---hell, even painting more. Option 4 is intended to make him feel incompetent and leave. The kinder (or meaner) version of Option 4 is to just trade armies. I've always been in the Machiavelli camp on stuff like this--utterly destroy an enemy to resolve the problem as quickly as possible.

Alternative Approach: Have everyone make video battle reports of any game with said jerk. Post it online--all of it or even make "X's Biggest Jerk Moments" and it bring into the store. If he has a cooler head during the viewing, there is the possibility of a breakthrough.

Stacius
02-05-2013, 19:50
I will be honest and say that the best approach is to call them an idiot. Lol as a prior poster has said though, my size normally means I don't experience any grief. Also that I'm a nice guy too, although funnily enough how I look means when I go into a GW or LGS where they don't know me I get loads of intense stares. A sales assistant will normally hurry over and mutter "anything you actually want?" Or words to that effect.
In fairness, I do look like a chav at times, not the full trackie and hat, but occasionally a hooded top. And I find any grief I get, is normally from the most archetypal nerd/geek in the store.

Spellduckwrong
03-05-2013, 02:54
It really isn't the store owner's job to ban bad players. A TO, maybe, but not the store owner. The store owner is there to sell things. Now, I would think that the gaming group would be responsible for dealing with this. Continuing to play with the person in question merely condones the behavior. Social pressure is very powerful.

mongoosedog300
04-05-2013, 01:48
Why not use conflict resolution skills? Talk to the person saying that you don't feel their behaviour is appropriate (And use the terms "I feel" and "I believe" a lot, because they're not accusational, and thus the person is more likely to listen to you). If that doesn't work, go a step higher, talk to the games store employee's about it and what you can do, then a step higher and talk to the manager and so on.

Good conflict resolution skills are applicable in so many aspects of life, and being a dick about things get's you nowhere.

NemoSD
04-05-2013, 03:18
It's not that ex military people bringing force down upon miscreants is the point. It's that having four or five guys (Or gals) hanging around who can clearly handle themselves is a strong disincentive for people starting fights or causing physical damage. If you call the cops, it takes time for them to arrive, and people know that. So having people on hand who can stop such behavior and keep things restrained until the police do show up is a nice thing to have.

There is a problem with this statement. Frequent two stores, one where military people play, and one where one doesn't.

From a field study of 15 stores, 3 of which are in Oceanside, California area. (For those who do not know, Camp Pendleton, which is one of the countries largest Marine bases is just outside of Oceanside.) Another 2 are located in South Bay of San Diego County, drawing sailors, and in one case a Navy Seal. Other sites include LA, Riverside, and San Bernardino where military populations are low/lean towards retired if present.

One thing I noticed, as did my assistants, the stores frequented by military personal were often more aggressive in style. The trash talk was less light hearted, and there was far more chest thumping. This reflects other studies done on military in civilian settings. The mere presence of people who 'can handle themselves' tends to put others in the 'have to show them up to be a man' mind set. You can argue that geeks do not do this, but that is simply not true, especially as 'geeks' become less taboo, and become, what American High Schools like to call them, "All American" (Which means, plays in sports, is involved in ExCir, and has a high GPA).

Sites away from the military still have the geek one ups menship, but it is often more subdued and less hostile to new comers.

Also outsiders have harder times breaking into military frequented establishments. (One of my aids who is not military could not get a game in the Oceanside area. He was obviously not a military person, (He was blind in one eye, and deaf in the corresponding ear due to a car accident the summer before he shipped out.) It took luck that the Marine that recruited him saw him there one day and vouched for him to the group.

There are always exceptions, and your store may very well be one, but on average when you have people ready for a fight, they will get a fight.

Charistoph
04-05-2013, 04:09
There is a problem with this statement. Frequent two stores, one where military people play, and one where one doesn't.

From a field study of 15 stores, 3 of which are in Oceanside, California area. (For those who do not know, Camp Pendleton, which is one of the countries largest Marine bases is just outside of Oceanside.) Another 2 are located in South Bay of San Diego County, drawing sailors, and in one case a Navy Seal. Other sites include LA, Riverside, and San Bernardino where military populations are low/lean towards retired if present.

One thing I noticed, as did my assistants, the stores frequented by military personal were often more aggressive in style. The trash talk was less light hearted, and there was far more chest thumping. This reflects other studies done on military in civilian settings. The mere presence of people who 'can handle themselves' tends to put others in the 'have to show them up to be a man' mind set. You can argue that geeks do not do this, but that is simply not true, especially as 'geeks' become less taboo, and become, what American High Schools like to call them, "All American" (Which means, plays in sports, is involved in ExCir, and has a high GPA).

Sites away from the military still have the geek one ups menship, but it is often more subdued and less hostile to new comers.

Also outsiders have harder times breaking into military frequented establishments. (One of my aids who is not military could not get a game in the Oceanside area. He was obviously not a military person, (He was blind in one eye, and deaf in the corresponding ear due to a car accident the summer before he shipped out.) It took luck that the Marine that recruited him saw him there one day and vouched for him to the group.

There are always exceptions, and your store may very well be one, but on average when you have people ready for a fight, they will get a fight.

And if we were talking about active military, you'd probably be right. But my LGS isn't near a base and our ex's aren't the brash young ones, but the more seasoned and stable, thankfully.

Luffwaffle
04-05-2013, 05:23
There's a few active duty military guys that I see from time to time at my FLGS in Bossier, Louisiana. For those who don't know, Bossier is the location of Barksdale airforce base which is the HQ for the US 8th airforce. Great guys. They help out people all the time. Real friendly. Would play a game with them anytime. I doubt the reliability of Nemo's field study (nothing personal but I don't trust anything with the word study these days).

As for the perceived aggressiveness you noticed, who was on the receiving end of it? Was it a new guy or another military person? People in the military (especially marines) share a certain bond. To be a marine you obviously wouldn't be thin skinned and be expected to be able to take a certain amount of aggressiveness, and dish it out in return. That's just how a lot of people in the military are to each other. What you see as "aggressiveness", they see as playful banter. Now the real test of them is can they turn off the attitude when dealing with civilians. I have a friend that is in the military that I play Xbox with from time to time. If you listened to the way we talked to each other, he would seem like the biggest ******* in history. He's not, he just knows that I'll take it and dish it out in return and won't get upset over it. Now when he games with people he doesn't know, he's actually pretty quiet and respectful.

I also suspect that any hostility or unwillingness in including a civilian into a group of military gamers has something to do with where they are currently stationed.

Losing Command
04-05-2013, 15:35
I didn't even know that there are wargamers that behave that bad :eek: The worst behavior I've seen was a guy losing a dreadnought to a ram-attack that went outside the store and kicked a wall.