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Kakapo42
01-05-2013, 07:17
So I have seen the two threads on units you can't be without and units you wouldn't touch even with a 10ft pole, and this got me wondering if there are any units that have had your opinion on them change with time. Units that have slowly grown on you or earned their keep in a tense game, or units that have let you down or left you feeling shockingly betrayed.

To start with, I have come to be rather fond of Crisis teams. When I first started with Tau I was quite unusual in that I wanted a Tau force that did not include a single XV8, which left my cadre quite Crisis-suit deficient. However over time I have very much warmed to them, to the point where I consider the 3-pack that was released with the new codex to be a godsend.

What tales do you have of hard-won respect or bitter treachery?

noobzor
01-05-2013, 07:34
I used to take a bodyguard of howling banshees with Yriel in a Falcon.

Then 5th edition made them go last when charging into cover.

Then 6th edition happened.

I only take Yriel out of that combo now. Sometimes.

brightblade
01-05-2013, 08:48
Banshees do not 'go last' when charging into cover. They are initiative 10 and ignore initiative bonus' conferred by cover or grenades on the turn they charge.

Anyway, I share your heartache on banshees. Without an assault vehicle, pure assault units like banshees are dead in the water in this edition.

A.T.
01-05-2013, 09:00
Used to play a lot of Inquisitional stormtroopers before slowly switching to sisters.
What I wouldn't give these days for cheap scoring BS4 plasma units led by 20pt psykers :(

Individual8580
01-05-2013, 09:33
Fire Warriors.

They were so useless in 5th especialy since in the last Codex markerlight support was hard to come by. They were good for making Devilfishes score. So the 'sane' thing was to pay something like ~150pts for a scoring skimmer with minimal combat potential. If they were on foot they either couldn't shoot at things, could shoot with dismal effiency or managed to doubletap and then were seconds away from being murderized in CC. I saw stuff like them managing to whittle down a Dark Eldar Warrior squad down to 3 Warriors and then those three stragglers proceeding to kill 12 Fire Warriors in CC. Yeah, they could potentialy shoot up to 30 inches and kill vehicles. But everyone was rocking those sweet 5th ed cover saves and vehicles took forever to kill.

They have improved beyond belief with the new edition and the new codex. Sometimes I feel like they are actually among the best units in the codex now. You can move them without wasting shooting, their doubletap range improved, overwatch combined with random charges and no assaulting from reserves helps against some of the silliest CC excesses that 5th had and Tau now have two sanely priced HQ choices which can significantly boost their performance. GEQs can't no longer sneer at your shooting if they are standing in some bushes and you can now actually semi-reliably wreck stuff like DE paper planes, Rhinos and Land Speeders. When I was returning to 40k after 6th came out and saw Tau lists which actually included Fire Warriors in them I thought everyone had gone collectively insane but now I know better.

I haven't ever used an Ethereal but I'm considering getting one. In the last codex if you took an Ethereal you were one or more of the following things: complete newbie, a hardcore fluff bunny, wishing to shoot yourself in the foot, looking to reroll succesfull ld tests in CC so you could kill your own units or somehow mentally incapacitated. The extra VP for killing one seems kinda harsh and pointless (wouldn't killing, say, a Lord Commissar or a Company Master be just as a devastating loss?) and the other invocations than Storm of Tripletap could be a bit beefier (with corresponding price increase I guess) but now they seem like useful HQ choices.

Nilo
01-05-2013, 21:21
I don't think I've ever been so affected by changes to a single unit as I have been by Thousand Sons. When I started 40k, Chaos Space Marines had just been introduced and Tzeentch appealed to me most. Spiteful space marine souls sealed within their armor for all eternity? Yes please! Oh but the Lord of Change is a fickle one is he not?

2nd Edition: Now that I have my Thousand Sons we start to learn the rules. Congratulations, your Thousand Sons have all the weaknesses of daemons but no aura save, they can't have aspiring champions and, oh yes, d6 of them flat out die when Energy Drain gets played...

3rd Edition (1st 3E Codex): Guess what, remember those guys who only had drawbacks and zero benefits? Well now they have 2 wounds each and are completely immune to Str 4 and lower. We'll make 'em slow & purposeful but who cares? Do Lasguns kill them? Nope. Bolters? Ha ha, no sir. Shuriken Catapults? Negative. Tau? They don't exist yet.

4th Edition (2nd 3E Codex): Ok Immune to bolter fire is a little much. Let's tone it down a bit, they can keep their extra wound but now bolters and lasguns can hurt them. Also all cult marines have been rolled into one unit that just gets upgraded with Marks of Chaos. And we'll add Sorcerers as unit sergeants. Sorcerers with bolt of change and winds of chaos. And we'll add these Books of Chaos to make things even more awesome but convoluted to the point that only the most dedicated followers of Tzeentch can decipher them.

5th Edition: Ok so Thousand Sons are their own unit again, but we're gonna do away with those awesomely fluffy Books of Chaos things because too many players are dumb and can't seem to figure out how the codex works. Instead we'll simplify it to "Mark of Tzeentch improves Invulnerable saves." Also we'll drop them back to 1 wound. Also we'll make their guns AP3 now because we can? Who cares if it's fluffy, "Inferno Bolts" sounds cool! (also as a side note, let's just rip daemons out of the codex entirely :mad: )

6th Edition: Let's drop that 4+ Invul. to 5+ and we'll add Overwatch to the game but Thousand Sons can't do it. Give their sorcerers force weapons and randomize their psychic powers but allow them virtually no other meaningful options. So now that we've made them strictly worse than before should we lower their point cost? Yes, -2 points total, not per model, but total. *sigh*

Gotta love the Changer of Ways. Let's hope his plan is better than mine, because mine seems to result in lots of mindless automaton-marines getting butchered by Dreadknights and Riptides. /end rant

ShadowbaneII
01-05-2013, 21:39
Rough Riders with Kamir definitely.

5th ed made Kamir's rage within a RR squad a bit risky and overall I never really bothered. To begin with in 6th against I perceived them to be useless - what with overwatch and random charge etc deploying them would be suicide. However when re-reading the rulebook I suddenly saw that rage had changed rather in favour of Kamir, and now on the first turn of the first combat the base rough rider gets 3-4 AP3 attacks (depending on charging) and Kamir can have up to 9 AP3 attacks...oh and hammer of wrath. So tried a 5 man squad with him in, over the course of three games, first game they were all shot before they could get across to the enemy gunline. Second game they destroyed 5 SM bikes and an Attack bike in a single turn of combat. Third game they decimate an entire guard command squad without even losing a man, before heading into an infantry squad.

The cavalry may die swiftly afterwards - but they definitely make up in kills beforehand!

v0iddrgn
01-05-2013, 22:17
Monoliths. With the meta transition from missile and melta spam to plasma and autocannon spam AV14 looks pretty good now. And the new FAQ allowing them to disembark a unit through its portal on the turn that it arrives from deepstrike means they have some interesting applications right now.

Theocracity
01-05-2013, 22:26
Tankbustas. The FAQ change to glory hogs meant that they became controllable, and I liked painting Finecast a lot better than metal. Now they're a nice bodyguard unit for my KFF Big Mek, anchoring the shield bubble in a looted wagon.

Ssilmath
01-05-2013, 22:31
6th Edition: Let's drop that 4+ Invul. to 5+ and we'll add Overwatch to the game but Thousand Sons can't do it. Give their sorcerers force weapons and randomize their psychic powers but allow them virtually no other meaningful options. So now that we've made them strictly worse than before should we lower their point cost? Yes, -2 points total, not per model, but total. *sigh*

This is incorrect, they have a 5++ from Aura of Dark Glory but also +1 from Mark of Tzeentch, so that is still a 4++ save. Sorcerers can also take Melta Bombs (Very meaningful for a squad without Krak Grenades), his spells add either anti TEQ or anti Horde to the squad and they gained Hatred against Space Marines. They're still a bit overcosted, but you should at least try to be accurate with your complaints.

Nilo
01-05-2013, 23:36
This is incorrect, they have a 5++ from Aura of Dark Glory but also +1 from Mark of Tzeentch, so that is still a 4++ save. Sorcerers can also take Melta Bombs (Very meaningful for a squad without Krak Grenades), his spells add either anti TEQ or anti Horde to the squad and they gained Hatred against Space Marines. They're still a bit overcosted, but you should at least try to be accurate with your complaints.

You're absolutely correct, I didn't have my 5th or 6th edition codices at hand when I wrote this and I haven't used CSM much at all in 6th, so perhaps it was hasty to comment on those changes. I love my Thousand Sons and I'll undoubtedly play them again in this edition when the mood strikes me, so please don't mistake my general frustration for displeasure. Re-reading my post, it does sound a lot more negative than I intended. Playing multiple armies within multiple war games does make it difficult to remember every detail and change so I do apologize for my inaccuracy and any confusion my post may have caused.

=Angel=
02-05-2013, 00:56
I miss the slim third ed codex- as you said, immune to s4 shooting but they also were lead sorcerers. The hq choice- 1 wound weapon skill 5 ass kickers- with flames of tzeentch- an auto hit lascannon fired in the movement phase.

When the. 3.5 codex came out and we got a half range lower strength shooting attack- we called it bolt of miss.

I forget when they decided we had to start taking psychic tests... On our one wound sergeants...

Eldarsif
02-05-2013, 09:51
I would almost say the entire Eldar Codex has changed, but that's because I have 2nd edition nostalgia. Where Guardians spammed dakka, Warp Spiders had a weird template weapon, and Vypers weren't completely useless.

Shakkara
02-05-2013, 09:55
Eldar Guardians.

Shuriken catapult, from being the best non-heavy weapon in the game (long range, best armor penetration, move and shoot advantage) to the worst (shortest range, sucky armor penetration and average strength, no advantage over rapid fire). Oh and with better armor save.

Eldar Guardians should have weapons and armor equal or better than Tau firewarrior. That's why I hate Tau so much. They took everything that the Eldar used to excel at, and slapped it onto a new race.

aim
02-05-2013, 22:43
Eldar Guardians.

Shuriken catapult, from being the best non-heavy weapon in the game (long range, best armor penetration, move and shoot advantage) to the worst (shortest range, sucky armor penetration and average strength, no advantage over rapid fire). Oh and with better armor save.

Eldar Guardians should have weapons and armor equal or better than Tau firewarrior. That's why I hate Tau so much. They took everything that the Eldar used to excel at, and slapped it onto a new race.

Except that the Eldar don't fold like a wet blanket in CC, to a man, without exception... and they have an assload of variety in units. Tau have guys that shoot, or guys that shoot a different gun, or guys that shoot shorter ranged guns but have fleet, or guys that shoot guns and have stealth.

noobzor
03-05-2013, 04:47
Banshees do not 'go last' when charging into cover. They are initiative 10 and ignore initiative bonus' conferred by cover or grenades on the turn they charge.

Anyway, I share your heartache on banshees. Without an assault vehicle, pure assault units like banshees are dead in the water in this edition.

They did in 5th.

If you charged into cover you counted as I1 with no modifiers. There was no 'bonus' to being in cover, just a penalty for charging into it.

GW never took the time to FAQ it either way. Since the mask says you count as I10, you had to roll off to see if you go first or last.