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gorblud
01-05-2013, 19:02
Hey!

On paper the banner looks riddiculously powerful for its price, but how good is it in game? has anyone actually tried it? Obviously it'd be impossible to try with the new book yet but has anyone tried it with the old book?

The bearded one
01-05-2013, 19:16
I think one poster said they tried a game of daemons vs old high elves with the new banner, and the end result was predictable

IcedCrow
01-05-2013, 19:19
As a demon player, I'm actively not playing against high elves if they show up with this unit and cram half their army into it. I'd rather go have a root canal done. And Mat Ward and his inane rules writing can die in a fire.

GlenMorray
01-05-2013, 19:21
Dont think this is worthy of a new thread, why nit just wine on an existing one?

Bodysnatcher
01-05-2013, 19:30
I finally get away from the high elf flaming immunity shenanigans, and now this!

Minsc
01-05-2013, 19:46
Why start another thread about exactly the same topic? You could've simply asked your question in the existing thread...

Lord Inquisitor
01-05-2013, 19:46
In fairness, the title was pretty clear on the thread!

gorblud
01-05-2013, 20:17
I wanted some sort of summary of gameplays with the banner to see how good it is in reality, hopefully it would reduce all the rage. Instead I got a bunch of whining about why I didn't just ask it in another thread.

selecta
01-05-2013, 20:32
I wanted some sort of summary of gameplays with the banner to see how good it is in reality, hopefully it would reduce all the rage. Instead I got a bunch of whining about why I didn't just ask it in another thread.

I want to test my army against it to find out good it really is but at the moment no one in my gaming club play elves.

Turion Rilyaloce
01-05-2013, 23:56
As a High Elf player I can see why people already hate this item. All I can say is I didn't want items like this that break game mechanics and balanced threat options.

I wanted magic equipment which changes the way a character, unit, or army acts, in a unique and balanced way. Out of the double digit magic items we are rumored to get, I will only be using the star lance and ring of fury, 2 in around 12....because the other items are terribly poor with no role or thought in mind (see cloak of beards, armour of caledor) or just game breaking

I thought games design was about balance and variety, and in respect to magic items this means things that help you with your weakness as characters or units, or add an ability you wouldn't normally have access to. Instead throw an item out there that flips the finger to the rest of the game and how things were meant to balance and threaten each other.

Seriously what would have been wrong with making magic armour that gives a unit a minus 1 to hit by projectile weapons for the unit, and missile weapons that don't use BS have to roll using their BS to hit. This takes into account our weakness to war machines while not completely invalidating them.

With some serious thought I can't see how with months of time, colleagues and editors, they can't come up with a list of magical equipment that a player would have a hard time deciding on (meaning no auto inclusions or exclusions like now) while keeping the sanctity of games balance intact.

It's sad that I've seen some players say they will not play against an army that has certain equipment in it. Surely as a designer this was fairly predictable and why design an item so powerful it will surely be comped or refused, and items so poor they are never ever taken....

Shadeseraph
02-05-2013, 00:12
I wanted magic equipment which changes the way a character, unit, or army acts, in a unique and balanced way. Out of the double digit magic items we are rumored to get, I will only be using the star lance and ring of fury, 2 in around 12....because the other items are terribly poor with no role or thought in mind (see cloak of beards, armour of caledor) or just game breaking

A couple pointers on the items:

-Star lance and ring of fury are great, as you have said.
-The new Book of Hoeth is actually very, very good without being broken. My only complaint is that it is pretty much a must have if you want to have a solid magic phase. Pretty much like the old Banner of Sorcery.
-The Armor of Caledor has been standarized to what other 8th ed armies have (Armor of meteoric iron), so the price increase was to be expected. It's not a bad item at all, even if it's not what it used to be.
-The Reaver Bow is actually better and cheaper than the old one. S+1 instead of a fixed S means it benefits from boosts, such as the potion of strength or wildform. And we have shooty characters to make use of it (it seems tailor-made for the Handmaiden).
-The shield of merwin is actually very, very good for its cost. If it can be used by a mounted character, it will be an auto-include for most armies using a noble or a prince, and even if it can't, it's still very good for any character on foot, such as the loremaster.
-The Golden Crown of Atrazzar is pretty much "golden" for any dragonprince/griffonnoble. Cancelling a cannonshot is huge.
-Moranion's wayshard is expensive, but it can give a surprisingly big tactical advantage. I'd put it in an anointed with some equipment, and proceed to outflank a big spear unit.

The remaining items are the gem of sunfire and the cloak of beards. None of those are that great, but both can be used if you have an specific tactic in mind. A character mounted on a dragon can hit quite hard with the dragon's breath weapon if he uses the sunfire gem, for example. And well, the Shadow armor is pretty much the same that it was, except it grants strider now. If it works on mounted characters, it could be actually huge.

All in all, while I will miss the huge variety of items we used to have (as does every other updated army), I think most of our items are quite competitive.

Turion Rilyaloce
02-05-2013, 00:35
Thanks for the break down, good analysis. What I am saying though is that those are either have to includes like you said with the book of hoeth, or only include if you run a certain kind of list ala foot character stuff or outflanking.

Why couldn't there just be a D3 wounds weapon or a spell selection item. Both are answers to things that would greatly benifit any character no matter the list, while not being OP.

I hate these three things auto-includes, auto-excludes, balances breakers. If you are going to cut down the list of magic items (God knows why? That was the fun part of list building) then they can't be so focused or controversial.

Shadeseraph
02-05-2013, 00:50
Thanks for the break down, good analysis. What I am saying though is that those are either have to includes like you said with the book of hoeth, or only include if you run a certain kind of list ala foot character stuff or outflanking.

Why couldn't there just be a D3 wounds weapon or a spell selection item. Both are answers to things that would greatly benifit any character no matter the list, while not being OP.

I hate these three things auto-includes, auto-excludes, balances breakers. If you are going to cut down the list of magic items (God knows why? That was the fun part of list building) then they can't be so focused or controversial.

You know? while I agree with a lot of your post, I'm happy they cut down the item choices. I left WHFB back in 5th edition because it was pretty much HeroeHammer, instead of a battle simulation game. The game has progressed a lot, but the old HE book was stuck in that: pretty much most of the HE armies were dependant on the characters magic item choices. Personally, I like that the magic items are a bit more rare, and that many of them are more of a tactical decision rather than being just plain boosters. For example, I love both the Moranion Wayshard, as instead of adding a flat bonus, it gives alternatives and new tactics.
And that's the reason why I dislike the book. As we both said, it's pretty much an auto-include, it's cheaper and more powerful than the book of Ashur, and it dictates how you have to take your characters if you want a decent magic phase, no other option.

Turion Rilyaloce
02-05-2013, 01:02
You know? while I agree with a lot of your post, I'm happy they cut down the item choices. I left WHFB back in 5th edition because it was pretty much HeroeHammer, instead of a battle simulation game. The game has progressed a lot, but the old HE book was stuck in that: pretty much most of the HE armies were dependant on the characters magic item choices. Personally, I like that the magic items are a bit more rare, and that many of them are more of a tactical decision rather than being just plain boosters. For example, I love both the Moranion Wayshard, as instead of adding a flat bonus, it gives alternatives and new tactics.
And that's the reason why I dislike the book. As we both said, it's pretty much an auto-include, it's cheaper and more powerful than the book of Ashur, and it dictates how you have to take your characters if you want a decent magic phase, no other option.

Yah agreed, I should never look at 6 different lists and see the same things in them because they win games or they're just too good not to take.

I should be fretting over all the items because they each have a use that can help my army. I personally love variety, I don't want to get bored of this book because there are only so many combinations.

HurrDurr
02-05-2013, 01:56
Was it lord Inquisitor or Solar Plex who said something about never being bit by a snake or run over by a steam roller and yet he had reasonable knowledge of the outcome and why to avoid those things?

Are ward saves new to the game? No.
Are magical attacks knew to the game? No.
Both of those things show up pretty steadily "most sources are permanent a.k.a. daemons, forest spirits"

If it can be taken by a regular standard and not BSB it's impossible to focus fire, or do we need to wait for the book to see if high elf command groups follow the rules for fantasy, or if they follow the rules for 3rd edition 40k?

Here's a better example, all glade guard are ballistic 10 and glade guard longbows are str 10 at all ranges, now do you really freaking think we need to wait for that unit to come out to judge it? Is it really worth insulting your own intelligence and everyone's because "you're just not quite sure what this banner will do."

I've noticed most people are arguing it will be taken on a deathstar unit and should be easily redirected, I think it looks scarier on a medium sized unit. Because the ward save is so powerful you don't need a huge investment, 10 white lions with this banner probably beats a treeman. It's scarier as an unexpected super efficient "semi" lowcost unit if you ask me, it won't displace your entire list just to take it, chances are some people run smaller support units of one of those 3 power units anyways

Not trying to pick any fights but seriously, some people overreact but this item should never have happened(poor design more than anything). I don't see why people defend it from the standpoint that we've been seeing.

Lord Inquisitor
02-05-2013, 02:24
I still think the optimum use will be on a unit of say 10 dragon princes. Really protects them against any many magical threats and they have the mobility to really get into whatever is trying to avoid them.

Shadeseraph
02-05-2013, 02:34
I still think the optimum use will be on a unit of say 10 dragon princes. Really protects them against any many magical threats and they have the mobility to really get into whatever is trying to avoid them.

Yep. Exactly what I thought as soon as I saw the banner. Fast, efficient, and supported by an ice phoenix (for the -1 to S and ASL and thunderstomping goodness), can give a headache to most enemy's deathstars/characters.

JWhex
02-05-2013, 08:17
I am waiting for the usual suspects to jump in and say we need 9 months of tournament reports before we can decide if the item is OPbroken. In other words, to answer the OP, there is no need to play this out on the table top against demons.