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najo
02-05-2013, 23:25
Before everyone decries the sky is falling, it has a major difference to the last version of this banner. It cannot stop spell effects, it only gives a ward against magical damage. So, this means hexes and spells that kill without dealing wounds (pit of shades, purple sun) completely ignore the banner.

Those points are some what obvious but I may have found the solution for dealing with the unit (especially for daemons). Elves only ever have T3, regardless of their points or power level. They do not have hard to kill, high toughness anvils. This banner gives them a very elven way to be that against armies and units that they would otherwise have major issue with.

Most of the other armies can field units or characters with a T5 or even higher. These units are only wounded on a 6+ by most armies basic units. Elves do not easily have access to that. This banner gives them that. Basically, if you can land a ton of S4 or even S5 hits on this unit, you are going to do many wounds. Then, the ward save negates those wounds in the same way a high toughness but low save unit would have (like Crypt Horrors for an example).

To take this even further for daemons, Nurgle has access to poison on most of its units and a hex that lowers the T of a unit by d3, plus can use death magic (i.e. purple sun and -T spells) and plague wind (T test or take a wound). Tzeentch warpfire works decent against T3 units. Slaanesh can access shadow magic (i.e. pit of shades and -T spells) and can easily hinder the unit with random d6 move. Khorne has access to many S5 attacks (thus will wound elves on 2+ without even casting spells). Then add in horde formation on basic daemons and you can easily put 20-30+ hits on this elven anti-magic anvil. You cause fear in them, so hitting on a 4 or 3+. You will wound them on a 3 or 2+, all they have left to save them is that 2+ ward.

So Daemons need to look at this banner and a unit with it in this way, what can you do with hexes and attacks to wound the elves on a 2+. How do you deliver so many wounds, that the 2+ ward save is basically their T5 anvil and you get so many wounds on a 3 or 2+ that they still suffer 6+ causalities even after the ward? I think this is easier to do with daemons than people think and for the rest of the armies, we have options that hurt elves badly, and this banner won't protect them from those. Thoughts?

Lord Inquisitor
03-05-2013, 00:16
I think you're underestimating the power of a 2+ ward. Let's say you have a horde of daemonettes with ASF and mindrazor on them. Arguably the best case single unit vs unit. 40 S7 attacks with re-rolls ... 4 wounds. In return, 36 white lions do 11 wounds back. Honestly mindrazor doesn't even do that much in this scenario. Without mindrazor the daemonettes do 2.5 wounds. Is mindrazor worth casting when it gives you a paltry 1.5 dead elves?

Any scenario where daemons take this unit head-on results in dead daemons very fast. There are a number of ways to take them on (see here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?371080-Banner-of-World-Dragon-OP-Broken-Strong-Lame-your-take&p=6749090&viewfull=1#post6749090)) but most of them require a convoluted sequence of events involving spells that are really quite unlikely.

The only real solution is avoidance, kill everything else and keep this unit off you any way you can.

tmarichards
03-05-2013, 14:25
For Daemons, trying to work out how to kill this unit will only end badly I think.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a resurgence in Greater Daemons, specifically a Bloodthirster, because of this- DoC armies will need to be able to get in to kill stuff and get points then get out again before getting tagged by the BotWD unit and a Bloodthirster lets you do this because of his good killing power, speed and threat range.

Chaff and redirection will also be the name of the game I think. There will, certainly initially, be a tendency for people to take massive units with the BotWD I think. Whilst this is a lot of points you probably can't get it's also a lot of points you can take out of them with a couple of units of Furies.

Asuryan's Spear
03-05-2013, 15:51
Okay I'm taking that the banner gives you a 2++ against any magic attacks as well as spells?

An actual description of what it does would be nice

Don Zeko
03-05-2013, 16:20
2+ ward against magical attacks, plus it gives stubborn to dragons within something like 12". That means a 2+ ward against daemons, characters with magic weapons, skullcrushers & chaos knights with ensorcerelled weapons, VC screams, runed war machines, forest spirits, miscasts, Grail Knights, damage from spells, and things like the Engine of the Gods. You get all of this for 50 points, which is cheap enough to put on a unit standard bearer rather than a BSB.

Morax
03-05-2013, 16:34
I'm also taking that the banner is 51+ points? That would make it easy to pinpoint a location. 2 wounds at toughness 3 is easy enough to kill, reguardless of what saves it has. After that things get much more managable.

Besides, with Pheonix Guard being the front runners for the top spot of High Elf infantry, which unit is really going to get this thing. A unit of spearmen or archers? Seems like a waste at 150+ points for protection for a core unit. It's possible that Swordmasters or White Lions could use it, but are you really going to want to include them in the first place? I don't think the WDB will be as big as a problem as many are making it out to be.

Edit: Ok, guess it's not 51+ points. That could be an issue then...

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 16:38
That banner really should be in the 100 point area.

I mean, how much would an MR 5 item cost for just a character? And that would only provide the ward against wounds from spells, not all magic attacks. Also, wouldn't grant Stubborn to dragons.

50 points for this banner is just dumb.

@Morax: In my neck of the woods, there's discussion of a Horde of 30-40 WL with this banner and including this character:

Anointed of Asuryan - Dawnstone, Armor of Silvered Steel - 280 pts.
2+ AS, rerolls, 4++

So, the character makes the unit ItP. They're already stubborn. The Anointed would challenge any HtH type character who didn't have magical attacks to use the 2+ re-rollable armor save and 4++ ward save to soak up wounds that would've gone to the unit.

It's a combination of a points denial unit that also hits pretty hard, with 30-40 high WS, high Initiative S6 attacks.

ellerki
03-05-2013, 16:59
I play daemons and I think the banner should be ok to deal with hex spells. I play Tzeentch so i was just going to flame the unit to death. also i'd wait untill my LoC gains strength 10, 10 attacks through the wand of whimsy

Dominatrix
03-05-2013, 17:19
I play daemons and I think the banner should be ok to deal with hex spells. I play Tzeentch so i was just going to flame the unit to death. also i'd wait untill my LoC gains strength 10, 10 attacks through the wand of whimsy

So what you are really hoping for is that the HE player is a ***** who will let you debuff his unit to your heart's desire. Why do you take for granted that you will have magic superiority over him?

Mozzamanx
03-05-2013, 17:33
Also just throwing it out there, but that LoC is going to get demolished if the banner is on White Lions. Even when fully charged with the Wand you're looking at 1-2 kills after Thunderstomp. He'll beat that on static resolution alone and that's before you factor in the enormous amount of WS5, S6 attacks.

I appreciate that no unit is invincible but statistically, this *cannot* be killed from close combat. Hexes, Transmutation and Dwellers might kill a few and you can certainly chaff it out of the game for a few turns. But when it comes to actually killing it, combat is simply not going to work for any reasonable points investment. The only way I can see it actually dying are as the result of a failed Terror-charge and subsequently running it down, but even then it is very possible to make the unit ItP.

selecta
03-05-2013, 17:33
curse of the leaper + plaguewind = lots of dead elves

Lord Inquisitor
03-05-2013, 17:35
curse of the leaper + plaguewind = lots of dead elves

:eyebrows: They still get a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by plaguewind.

theunwantedbeing
03-05-2013, 17:43
:eyebrows: They still get a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by plaguewind.

It only takes just over 81 failed tests on average (this is from a single casting, multiple castings drop this total by 1 per casting) to kill a while unit of 40 on average.
Curse of the leper is just used to improve the chance of failing the test from 3/6 to 5/6, it doesn't make the spell do any more damage.

That's a total of 287(ish) St5 hits to the unit.
Over 6 turns, that's "only" 48 a turn.

One casting of Dwellers/Final Transformation cuts that down by a least a third(potentially more).
Basically, you hurl the uber spells at them (standard deathstar killing tactic) before doing your best to drown them in as much firepower as you have available.

To give a bit of perspective.
To gun down a 40 man horde of T3 models with a 5+ save using empire crossbowmen at long range you need to fire 216 shots.
To do that with longbows you need 360 shots.

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 17:49
I play daemons and I think the banner should be ok to deal with hex spells. I play Tzeentch so i was just going to flame the unit to death. also i'd wait untill my LoC gains strength 10, 10 attacks through the wand of whimsy

The Banner will still allow a 2++ against any of your flame attacks, as they all count as magical. The hex debuffs would be fine for your turn, but the HE Lore has a spell that removes buffs and debuffs from either target unit or all units withing a given range.

Also, the LoC with 10 attacks at S10 would do next to nothing against any unit with the banner. Ten attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and saving on 2+ almost averages one wound per combat phase, and Thunderstomp should average less than one more. If you're up against White Lions in a Horde, they're going to have 12 attacks back hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, and saving on 5+, resulting in 2 wounds to the GD. So, the GD has a combat resolution of maybe 1, or 2 if it charged, at best 4 if it charged in the rear, while the WL have a CR of around 6 from wounds, ranks and banner. The GD starts making Instability rolls until it dies.

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 17:52
It only takes just over 81 failed tests on average (this is from a single casting, multiple castings drop this total by 1 per casting) to kill a while unit of 40 on average.

I'm not sure I follow the math on this one.

Edit: Thanks for clarifying the math.

But, you do realize that over a six turn game with a successful casting of Curse and Plaguewind every turn, there should only average about 30 or so failed tests, right? (Every sixth test should average a success, even with T1.)

selecta
03-05-2013, 17:58
:eyebrows: They still get a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by plaguewind.

if I can reduce toughness to 1. then deal wounds with plaguewind I should get some 1 at least.

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 18:04
if I can reduce toughness to 1. then deal wounds with plaguewind I should get some 1 at least.

Spells like Dwellers and Pit and Transmutation are better options because they don't cause wounds, thereby bypassing the 2++ save.

Morax
03-05-2013, 18:20
Lets also look at the fact that the unit is also 900+ points. A comparable selection of points can handle it. Like, say, a unit of 40 chaos chosen with Halberds and make of nurgle.

They strike simultaneously

So 40 Chosen attacks, hitting on 3's for 26.6 hits and 22.2 unsaved wounds.
40 White Lion attacks, hitting on 4's for 20 hits and 16.6 unsaved wounds.

Not a good match for the White Lions.

I'm not saying that the elf player is going to walk a unit of White Lions into a horde of Chosen, but an equal points investment can handle this deathstar fairly well.

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 18:24
Aren't both the Chosen and White Lions WS 5?

Oh, and 900 points of DoC gets destroyed by this hypothetical unit with the Banner.

FatTrucker
03-05-2013, 18:35
I might be missing something fundamental but would charging a very killy unit into the flank of a BotWD equipped unit not win combat most of the time?
Full rank bonus, flank charge etc against a disrupted unit that only has 4 or 5 attacks back.
Or is there another funky rule that lets HE keep their rank bonus and fight in more than one rank to the side?

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 18:40
You'd probably win combat, but the unit is Stubborn.

Let me clarify. A unit of White Lions has, I believe, the Stubborn rule. The other infantry unit that people have talked about giving the Banner is Unbreakable. So, yeah, you can win combat, but winning the combat by itself isn't quite enough.

Gaargod
03-05-2013, 18:50
You certainly can do that. Daemonettes or Bloodletters would most likely win combat, just on static if nothing else.

The problem is combat reform. Namely, the WLs are stubborn. Thus they can combat reform on LD9/10 (depending on general, 8 at worst) rerollable. And front on, you die, end of discussion.

You can block that to a large extent by combo-charging. Putting a unit into the front will most likely lose you combat resolution, as suddenly a load of white lions get to hit you. So you need double flank or flank and rear.

That's doable... but only just, and only if he's using a big-ass deathstar. If it's just a 400-500pts horde with a character or two in, he'll still have a load of other units around. At that stage, avoidance is functionally your only game - you're very unlikely to kill all his other stuff and still have the opportunity to line up ubercombochargesofdoom, and you're not killing it without. Dwellers is obviously your best bet, but even then you're 'only' killing 1/3 of his lions and 1/3 or 1/2 of his characters each go (transmutation means just 1/6 of characters). If you're managing to get over, say, 3 castings of dwellers on the unit, yeah, that might weaken it to the point that you can just drown it in wounds. But seriously, how are you managing to do that?!

I'm still wondering whether that funky Glean Magic plan on the banner actually works?

Frost57
03-05-2013, 19:23
Now to my understanding, as the banner does not stop hexes or spells that remove models instead of wounds, I assume this actually leaves a big hole in the elves' defenses. Lets say you are using lore of shadows, can you just hit them with either The Enfeebling Foe or The Withering until you roll a 3 on the d3? Once a model's strength, toughness or wounds go to zero, for whatever reason, they are simply removed from play. Even Pit of shades is useful against HE, when combined with some miasma, and thus lowering their nice initiative to normal or even low levels.

I know this requires some setup and combinations, and of course the HE player is going to dispel some of these, but they cannot stop them all. Its not the best counter, but it is an option I was planning on running with. But for dwarves...

Morax
03-05-2013, 19:27
Aren't both the Chosen and White Lions WS 5?

Oh, and 900 points of DoC gets destroyed by this hypothetical unit with the Banner.

No, the Chosen are Weaponskill 6.

iamjack42
03-05-2013, 19:38
You'd probably win combat, but the unit is Stubborn.

Let me clarify. A unit of White Lions has, I believe, the Stubborn rule. The other infantry unit that people have talked about giving the Banner is Unbreakable. So, yeah, you can win combat, but winning the combat by itself isn't quite enough.

What unit is unbreakable? Early rumors that Phoenix Guard were unbreakable were all false, weren't they?

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 20:07
What unit is unbreakable? Early rumors that Phoenix Guard were unbreakable were all false, weren't they?

Dunno for sure. If that rumor is false, some people on other sites who claim to have the electronic copy of the army book are still putting it forward.

Sexiest_hero
03-05-2013, 20:22
If you a nurgle daemon player, you take a flying lvl 4 with Portalglyph, and start tossing 6 dice P.suns while you unleash a unit of PB in their backfield, add in some drones who can avoid the unit, and beasts, furies, and nurglings to tie up/redirect. With the portalglyph you can almost be sure a flank and with the flying dp a rear.

Nurgle dp with wings lvl4 death portalglyph
Nurgle herald regen locus
20 pb banner

Right around the 900 point mark

Lord Inquisitor
03-05-2013, 20:31
if I can reduce toughness to 1. then deal wounds with plaguewind I should get some 1 at least.
Yeah. Under 1 in 6. But then you'll kill 1 in 6 per wound with shooting and in combat too.

If you actually want a two spell combo to kill the unit then spam level 1 shadow slaanesh heralds and then cast enfeebling foe and then use Kairos to take Dwellers and hit them with that. But you'd have to be lucky to get both off.


I might be missing something fundamental but would charging a very killy unit into the flank of a BotWD equipped unit not win combat most of the time?
Full rank bonus, flank charge etc against a disrupted unit that only has 4 or 5 attacks back.
Or is there another funky rule that lets HE keep their rank bonus and fight in more than one rank to the side?
No and certainly in conjunction with phantasmagoria/masque/doomanddarkness/treason you could conceivably break the unit even if stubborn. Risky though because if you don't break them they'll reform and hit you. It also depends on how many characters are in there to make way and make life difficult for you.

Hitting such a unit on both flanks especially a shallow horde with two killy units (e.g. fiends on one flank and keeper on the other) might do the trick of grinding them down without suffering too much damage in return but actually engineering such a situation is easier said than done and I don't know if there are enough combat rounds in the game to actually kill them all.

Saldiven
03-05-2013, 20:44
I'm still wondering whether that funky Glean Magic plan on the banner actually works?

It should work, but it's so hit and miss as to be largely meaningless.

First, your opponent has to choose High Magic. Then he has to roll up Vaul's Unmaking (I think that's the name). Then, assuming you have Lore of Tzeentch, you have to roll up Glean Magic. Then you have to maneuver within 18 inches of the enemy wizard with VU (including the risk for being that close). Then you have to successfully cast Glean. Then, you have to win the roll-off. Assuming you win the roll-off, you have to hope that the randomly selected spell you get is VU. If all that comes to pass, you can then attemp to cast VU targetting the unit with the Banner.

So, yeah, it kinda works.... :D

FatTrucker
03-05-2013, 21:24
Yeah. Under 1 in 6. But then you'll kill 1 in 6 per wound with shooting and in combat too.

If you actually want a two spell combo to kill the unit then spam level 1 shadow slaanesh heralds and then cast enfeebling foe and then use Kairos to take Dwellers and hit them with that. But you'd have to be lucky to get both off.


No and certainly in conjunction with phantasmagoria/masque/doomanddarkness/treason you could conceivably break the unit even if stubborn. Risky though because if you don't break them they'll reform and hit you. It also depends on how many characters are in there to make way and make life difficult for you.

Hitting such a unit on both flanks especially a shallow horde with two killy units (e.g. fiends on one flank and keeper on the other) might do the trick of grinding them down without suffering too much damage in return but actually engineering such a situation is easier said than done and I don't know if there are enough combat rounds in the game to actually kill them all.

Yeah, was thinking specifically about options for DoC players to at least make a fight of it.
I play Skaven and for the most part I would either bog it down with slaves, hit it with horded plague monks with the plague banner or just spam 13th and wither at it. Wither in particular is nasty against T3 elves if its a big unit. Get it done 3 turns in a row and all thats left of the unit are characters.

selecta
03-05-2013, 22:31
So is the lore of death the better choice than lore of nurgle? I still think that is some nurgle magic that will make the unit weeker then more attacks wounds. a muti charge front and flank might help.

Von Wibble
04-05-2013, 08:15
Personally if I'm using Deamons I'd go lore of Slaanesh and just have them move D6" per turn. Its not totally inconceivable to have a L4 and 2 x L1 to guarantee getting the spell (the odds are good even with just a L4). Of course,. there is the problem that high elves are known to be quite good at the magic phase (they're certainly better than Dwarfs ;) ) so the dispelling of said spell could be a major issue. Hysterical Frenzy can also work - by giving the unit frenzy they have to overrun, making chaff even more effective. Finally Cacaphonic choir - whilst the chances of actually affecting the deathstar are slim it is still possible. More to the point, the spell is so dangerous to the rest of the army that the high elf player will pull out dispel dice for it, improving your chances for the other 2 spells. Pull off any of those spells and you can expect the Deathstar to spend the entire battle killing 2 -3 chaff units.

Beyond that for Daemons I am short of ideas. The only comfort for them is that against most other armies there are better ways to spend the points for the banner.

ellerki
04-05-2013, 12:20
just cast acquiescence on the unit and destroy everything else then deal with the unit by shooting. Aquiescence stops the unit from charging etc.

datalink7
04-05-2013, 21:42
just cast acquiescence on the unit and destroy everything else then deal with the unit by shooting. Aquiescence stops the unit from charging etc.

It isn't as easy as "just" casting Aquiescence. First, you aren't guaranteed that you'll cast it. Second, you aren't guaranteed that they'll fail to dispel it. It's a viable option, but not as easy as "just."

theunwantedbeing
04-05-2013, 21:56
It isn't as easy as "just" casting Aquiescence.
True, you need a slaanesh mage for starters.


First, you aren't guaranteed that you'll cast it.
You can throw upto 6 dice at it, it's a 6+ to cast (9+ at the hardest).
It's quite hard to fail to cast this spell if you are trying to get it cast.


Second, you aren't guaranteed that they'll fail to dispel it.
Unless you get irresistable force, or know they don't have enough dice to stop it.
Even so, it can put the unit out of the game effectively for at least a turn, if not longer.

Ratarsed
04-05-2013, 23:18
What if you have a more dangerous spell that needs stopping? It's very hard to stop all spells with just dispel dice and you can't have all your army hidden under the banner. Would you stop a spell that just slows a unit down, or stop a spell that might wipe out a unit? Honestly no one knows how this will play out, the only ones to have had real games with real armies using the new High Elf book are the ones that wrote and tested the book. Lets see what the next 6 months teaches us about ways to deal with the Banner of the World Dragon, you can't Theoryhammer this one.

datalink7
04-05-2013, 23:35
True, you need a slaanesh mage for starters.


You can throw upto 6 dice at it, it's a 6+ to cast (9+ at the hardest).
It's quite hard to fail to cast this spell if you are trying to get it cast.


Unless you get irresistable force, or know they don't have enough dice to stop it.
Even so, it can put the unit out of the game effectively for at least a turn, if not longer.

Of course. Like I said, it is a viable tactic. I wasn't objecting to anything other than the word "just."

Also, as a side note, even with 6 dice irresistible shows up less than 50 percent of the time.

datalink7
04-05-2013, 23:36
Double post.

Sexiest_hero
05-05-2013, 01:22
The lore of slannesh has 4 spells in it the high elves must stop 1,3,5,6. Any one can ruin him in a different way. You can get through one spell at some point in the game.

yeknoMehT
05-05-2013, 08:33
Now to my understanding, as the banner does not stop hexes or spells that remove models instead of wounds, I assume this actually leaves a big hole in the elves' defenses. Lets say you are using lore of shadows, can you just hit them with either The Enfeebling Foe or The Withering until you roll a 3 on the d3? Once a model's strength, toughness or wounds go to zero, for whatever reason, they are simply removed from play. Even Pit of shades is useful against HE, when combined with some miasma, and thus lowering their nice initiative to normal or even low levels.

I know this requires some setup and combinations, and of course the HE player is going to dispel some of these, but they cannot stop them all. Its not the best counter, but it is an option I was planning on running with. But for dwarves...

Unfortunately, enfeebling foe and the withering cannot reduce S/T below 1, precisely for the reason that it could kill stuff otherwise. Cannot recall if the Masque has that restriction too - I think so, but if not she'd do nicely... Miasma and Pit go together well, but you probably need some way of getting rid of the dispel dice first (so you probably need to have a 10+ dice magic phase).

FatTrucker
05-05-2013, 08:47
That specifically is going to be the problem. With the various buffs available to them in the magic phase you're really going to need to double 6 anything you want to get off and with the bonuses they get you're effectively going to need to double 6 or scroll anything you don't want them to cast.
Talking to a mate of mine yesterday and I think their potency in the magic phase is going to be a much bigger problem than BotWD.

JWhex
05-05-2013, 09:00
What if you have a more dangerous spell that needs stopping? It's very hard to stop all spells with just dispel dice and you can't have all your army hidden under the banner. Would you stop a spell that just slows a unit down, or stop a spell that might wipe out a unit? Honestly no one knows how this will play out, the only ones to have had real games with real armies using the new High Elf book are the ones that wrote and tested the book. Lets see what the next 6 months teaches us about ways to deal with the Banner of the World Dragon, you can't Theoryhammer this one.

Most people familiar with the game that are at least what you would call an intermediate level player do not need 6 months to figure this out. So what if if only the people that wrote the rules have played games with it, they are fething idiots when it comes to game design. They dont even really care so much if the rules are balanced and have said so repeatedly.

The only people defending this banner as fair are people who want to use it but not be mocked.

Ratarsed
05-05-2013, 09:32
So what if if only the people that wrote the rules have played games with it, they are fething idiots when it comes to game design. They dont even really care so much if the rules are balanced and have said so repeatedly.

Then why are you playing their game?

BlackPawl
05-05-2013, 09:41
The lore of slannesh has 4 spells in it the high elves must stop 1,3,5,6. Any one can ruin him in a different way. You can get through one spell at some point in the game.

I don't think that one of this spells will ruin the day of a HE army. Yes, the combo 5 and 3 will be great, but with a Ld of 8 or higher only spell 3 will be good for the HE (ItP and +1 attack). 6 will only hurt knights / chariots alot (normaly only 3 or 4 wounds), so only spell 1will be really good. But even that could be countered by spell 3 from the High lore list.

Von Wibble
05-05-2013, 13:06
The lore of slannesh has 4 spells in it the high elves must stop 1,3,5,6. Any one can ruin him in a different way. You can get through one spell at some point in the game.

As I already said above, Hysterical Frenzy is useful - forcing an overrun when he kills chaff has the potential to make him unable to charge in the following turn.

That said, Drain Magic will counter this, so still not a great plan, just one with the potential to work.

Sexiest_hero
05-05-2013, 13:29
The thing about the 5 and 6 spell is it's a bubble. You can't have half your army rolling 3d6 for leadership, or moving d6. The more points they put into this unit the less points they have for anything other than core. and dispite what the net says you can win by killing 25% of the other guys army.

ellerki
06-05-2013, 07:54
I'd quite fancy playing the new HE to test some of this stuff out.

Avian
06-05-2013, 11:07
Hmm, it does seem to me that the best way of dealing with this banner* is to have 3 or 4 different armies and informing your HE opponent that you will randomly select which one to bring. It really does seem like these items are priced as if you have no idea what you might be facing.


* same goes for Cloak of Beards

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2013, 11:27
Hmm, it does seem to me that the best way of dealing with this banner* is to have 3 or 4 different armies and informing your HE opponent that you will randomly select which one to bring. It really does seem like these items are priced as if you have no idea what you might be facing.

I'de cost a damn sight more if list tailoring was actually considered part of the game during play testing.

Lord Inquisitor
06-05-2013, 11:30
I'm not sure that magically fixes the issue with the banner because that assumes the value of the banner averages out. I'd contend it's well worth the 50 points against any army and when facing armies with mostly/all magical attacks the HE player can dump all his characters in there if they weren't there already and make an impromptu deathstar.

selecta
06-05-2013, 11:54
I'm not sure that magically fixes the issue with the banner because that assumes the value of the banner averages out. I'd contend it's well worth the 50 points against any army and when facing armies with mostly/all magical attacks the HE player can dump all his characters in there if they weren't there already and make an impromptu deathstar.

I am at a loss on how to deal with this banner and my nurgle daemon army. I plan to practice and hope it can be beaten.

Asuryan's Spear
06-05-2013, 14:42
okay its clear that only deamons are really gonna struggle against this banner... everyone else its going to be worth the 50 points you pay for it and its pretty sound. for my daemonic friends i thinks its just going to be one of those things that yu'll have to play around and try to limit... every army is going to have something that nerfs it in another army and this is yours... try asking VC or TK players about how fair they think hellheart is....

Avian
06-05-2013, 16:08
Wood Elves also struggle, since essentially all their combat units are magical. Skaven, VC and WoC only have magical ranged attacks.

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2013, 16:30
Wood Elves also struggle, since essentially all their combat units are magical. Skaven, VC and WoC only have magical ranged attacks.

Wood elves do have Wardancers, Warhawk Riders, Eternal Guard and Glad Guard as non-magical means to get rid of the unit with the banner at least.
While individually each of these will have trouble with an entire horde of elven elites, together they can deal with the issue.

Skaven infantry don't have magical attacks, plus are generally very numerous and able to at least hold the opposing unit in place.
Plague Monks, Stormvermin, Rat ogres, Giant Rats, Doomwheel, Gutter Runners, Hellpit Abomination without Warpstone Spikes (lets face it, not everyone takes this) will all be able to take on the unit without any fear of facing a 2+ ward from the banner.

VC have plenty of close combat troops without magical attacks and not all vampire lords are going to be given a magical sword, generally I find people opt for maximum protection from their magical item allowance rather than maximum damage capability.

WoC also have plenty of non-magical attacks with which to fight the opposing unit.

So unless the above armies are set up to specialise in magical attacks, there shouldn't be too big an issue even if the enemy HE army does bunker up in the unit with the banner. The fault is still with the Banner though, it shouldn't give a 2+ ward against regular magical attacks.

Voss
06-05-2013, 16:31
WoC can have magical melee attacks (knights and bloodcrushers), but they have enough other stuff that isn't magical and very killy that it doesn't matter- as they are both mounted units they can go kill things that don't have the banner, while warriors or whatever get stuck in with the banner unit (as it makes zero difference to them).

Wood elves are going to depend slightly. Forest spirit only armies are going to have major problems, but wood elves aren't entirely obliged to do that. It may not be ideal, but playing wood elves at all isn't ideal, since they are gifted with neither reasonable points costs like DE or ASF like HE.

Baluc
06-05-2013, 16:39
Doom and Darkness and terror/static res to deal with White lions, Plague beast or rot flies to deal with PG. But either way a Death wizard is going to be key. Any Characters not in the BoftheWD unit are going to get sniped, and if all his characters are in the unit, that leaves 25% minimum without any character support. The army will likely also include at least a phoenix and/or bolt throwers so the HE player can you know play against other armies he might see.

In an out of the book scoring systems it a non-issue in a 500 vp win system its also not too rough as he's going to have 500+ points in core, in a 20-0 systems your assed.

Lord Inquisitor
06-05-2013, 16:43
okay its clear that only deamons are really gonna struggle against this banner... everyone else its going to be worth the 50 points you pay for it and its pretty sound.
As it stands, it's pretty amazing against several magic-attacks-heavy armies. Most of the competitive WoC lists I've seen recently are magical attacks heavy (daemon prince/knights/skullcrushers) and VC/TK/Skaven will likewise have trouble depending on build.

We'll see if this item is enough to push players away from magical attacks. Ensorcelled weapons are optional for WoC, HPAs don't have to take warpstone spikes and so forth. I doubt it will be enough really and I think players will still keep with their existing builds. Ensorcelled weapons are just too all-round good for WoC to drop for one unit in one army.


for my daemonic friends i thinks its just going to be one of those things that yu'll have to play around and try to limit... every army is going to have something that nerfs it in another army and this is yours... try asking VC or TK players about how fair they think hellheart is....
This is more extreme than many others. Chaos Dwarf magma cannons are a ridiculous counter to my Ogres but there's at least some things I can do to take them out or mitigate their damage. At least acknowledge that this is a mismatch the likes of which we've not seen before!

And as for the hellheart, that was the one item so far in 8th that caused a fuss. It isn't fair against certain armies. It doesn't make it any better that we have other items that are also unfair. That said, it costs the full allowance of an expensive ogre hero, has a random range and random effect and often does nothing at all.

Asuryan's Spear
06-05-2013, 16:45
are we seriously complaining about this banner ruining CC with multiple armies?
i remember the days not so long ago when people were wailing about ethereal units being difficult as nobody had any magic attacks to deal with them... now apparently everyone has them and cant get rid of them
and if people are getting annoyed over it nerfing units with the flaming banner then think of it as recompense for the additional advantage against ethereals and regen monsters...everything has a downside and i personally like that about this item: it says if you rely on magical attacks as an army then there is a downside and will make you think twice
bottom line: every army has a way to take non magical attacks and now these need simply be pointed at the bearers of this banner.... this happens every release where people complain about things being OP... if your worried about competitive game play it will be comped soon enough and if you play to win and so object to the fluffy side of HE having a counter to deamons and other magical forms of attack then you shouldn't have much problem dusting off other armies for competitive play if you think its that over powered.

Asuryan's Spear
06-05-2013, 16:47
As it stands, it's pretty amazing against several magic-attacks-heavy armies. Most of the competitive WoC lists I've seen recently are magical attacks heavy (daemon prince/knights/skullcrushers) and VC/TK/Skaven will likewise have trouble depending on build.

We'll see if this item is enough to push players away from magical attacks. Ensorcelled weapons are optional for WoC, HPAs don't have to take warpstone spikes and so forth. I doubt it will be enough really and I think players will still keep with their existing builds. Ensorcelled weapons are just too all-round good for WoC to drop for one unit in one army.



At least acknowledge that this is a mismatch the likes of which we've not seen before!

Oh I agree with you fully it is a mismatch but my point is there are many for many armies and people seem to have forgotten that

Bladelord
06-05-2013, 16:56
VC tag-teaming with Asurs will love this banner:D

Baluc
06-05-2013, 17:02
Hmm, it does seem to me that the best way of dealing with this banner* is to have 3 or 4 different armies and informing your HE opponent that you will randomly select which one to bring. It really does seem like these items are priced as if you have no idea what you might be facing.


* same goes for Cloak of Beards

You realize of course that the cloak of beards was toned down right...

Vipoid
06-05-2013, 17:07
VC have plenty of close combat troops without magical attacks

They do, but very few that can stand up to HE specials. :p


not all vampire lords are going to be given a magical sword, generally I find people opt for maximum protection from their magical item allowance rather than maximum damage capability.

Interesting, I've generally seen the opposite - most people go with magic weapons, and take mounts if they want a 1+ or 2+ armour save.

datalink7
06-05-2013, 18:25
They do, but very few that can stand up to HE specials. :p



Interesting, I've generally seen the opposite - most people go with magic weapons, and take mounts if they want a 1+ or 2+ armour save.

I concur. In my knight bus list, My vamp lord has the Ogre Blade. He has plenty of protection with a 1+/4++ as well.

I have two other vampires in that bus. One has Sword of Striking, so he's out. The other just has a lance, but one baby vamp with a lance isn't going to be enough.

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2013, 19:07
They do, but very few that can stand up to HE specials. :p

In a head on fight, letting the elven opponent get maximum attacks on you...yeah. Shocking isn't it?

Lower the frontage (which get's you more ranks, negates steadfast handily and makes it easier to protect your own flanks as his unit will be in the way as well as your own flank protectors.
Stick the champion and character's on the flanks.
Against hordes this will negate at least 3 attacks each on the unit...for a turn.

An even better way is to not charge them in the front (I know, madness!)
That way for at least one round of combat you are facing 1/3rd the attacks, which means a lot less damage.
Often he'll only have 4 guys fighting, which means 2.22 average dead. You'll overcome that with your own ranks and flank bonus.

As for other things.
Skeletons with a shield get a 6+ ward save, so they die less as they're getting a save.
Ethereals may well struggle to hurt his unit, but they won't be harmable themselves...so they make a pretty useful support unit to pin the enemy in place.
Crypt Ghouls pump out lots of poisoned attacks
Corpse cats can give your own troops ASF
Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, Vargulfs & Blood Knights don't have magical attacks, perfect for flanking with

Infact, plenty of things can stand up to HE elites.

Ratarsed
06-05-2013, 19:10
I think we will see a shift in how players go about designing their armies because of this banner. If I were a high elf player I'd seriously consider this banner on a unit of dragon princes with a hero and go hunting all the magic attack stuff.

Lord Inquisitor
06-05-2013, 19:42
That's what I'd do with it as well. They need protection from spells a bit more (although the inbuilt 2+ vs fire already helps here). You could put a mounted mage in the unit (plus a couple of fighty characters, pushing him into the second rank?) without fear of blowing the unit sky high. 5x3 is 15 attacks on the charge and you get the ASF re-rolls. A nasty unit to be sure. A horde of white lions seems easier for daemons or magic-heavy armies to chaff up and avoid.

warplock
06-05-2013, 20:10
5x3 is 15 attacks on the charge and you get the ASF re-rolls. A nasty unit to be sure.

20 actually, with martial prowess. An amazing unit on the charge, and M9 now too!
What if you took 6 and went 2-wide? You'd charge with 8 S5 attacks instead of 12, but you're 2 models wide! You could go all sorts of places you have no business going.

Citadel97501
06-05-2013, 22:36
I think we will see a shift in how players go about designing their armies because of this banner. If I were a high elf player I'd seriously consider this banner on a unit of dragon princes with a hero and go hunting all the magic attack stuff.

That was the first thing, I thought of when I saw the banner. I find there price reduction and 6+ ward save even before this banner to be extremely interesting but due to the banner I will be taking them in units of 10.

White Lions with the Banner is interesting but it seems to be kind of pointless, in my local meta game.

P.S.
Damn, I didn't notice they got Martial Prowess that really makes me think about the 15 elf unit. That runs just over 500 points with a the BotWD, and a Musician. I personally find it disturbing that 1/2 the time your BSB would choose to challenge since your tougher when in one since you have much higher odds of being hit with a magical attack.

Vipoid
06-05-2013, 22:48
In a head on fight, letting the elven opponent get maximum attacks on you...yeah. Shocking isn't it?


Not particularly, no. But it's certainly not helpful when your 400-500pt lord and ~150-250pt heroes have been rendered ineffectual against them.



Lower the frontage (which get's you more ranks, negates steadfast handily and makes it easier to protect your own flanks as his unit will be in the way as well as your own flank protectors.

That doesn't really help. Yes, you take less damage, but you also get far fewer attacks.

And steadfast is only an issue if you can win combat. :p



Stick the champion and character's on the flanks.
Against hordes this will negate at least 3 attacks each on the unit...for a turn.


That's a fair point.



An even better way is to not charge them in the front (I know, madness!)
That way for at least one round of combat you are facing 1/3rd the attacks, which means a lot less damage.
Often he'll only have 4 guys fighting, which means 2.22 average dead. You'll overcome that with your own ranks and flank bonus.


Not charging them in the front is easy to say, but harder to do. Since high elves have range, I'm forced to come to them to do anything. So, it's a lot easier for them to bunker up and protect their flanks.


As for other things.
Skeletons with a shield get a 6+ ward save, so they die less as they're getting a save.

Granted, but they also hit back on 5s.



Ethereals may well struggle to hurt his unit, but they won't be harmable themselves...so they make a pretty useful support unit to pin the enemy in place.


Assuming they don't have characters or a champion with a magic weapon (I believe they can still do that).

But, granted, that can also work.



Crypt Ghouls pump out lots of poisoned attacks

Depends on their formation, and your definition of 'lots'. If they're in ranks of 5, then they're getting 15 attacks - so, about 5 wounds, before saves. If they're in a horde, there probably won't be many left. ;)



Corpse cats can give your own troops ASF

True.



Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, Vargulfs & Blood Knights don't have magical attacks, perfect for flanking with


Well, I'm not sure about flanking with the former, but the others could probably do it.



Infact, plenty of things can stand up to HE elites.

Well, there are still a lot of 'IFs' involved. And bear in mind that many of the things you listed only stand up to HE elites if they manage to flank them, or if they have a lot of magic support (and the HE units don't have counter-measures).


It's certainly possible, but I still think the banner hurts VCs a lot more than you say.

At the very least, it'll almost certainly require a disproportionate amount of points to take out the banner unit.

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2013, 23:10
Not particularly, no. But it's certainly not helpful when your 400-500pt lord and ~150-250pt heroes have been rendered ineffectual against them.

I agree, it isn't particularly helpful.
That said, you have either been outplayed or done something spectacularly wrong to end out in that situation.


It's certainly possible, but I still think the banner hurts VCs a lot more than you say.

Which makes me think that things tend to go spectacularly wrong for you quite often.
ie.
Oh no! my character without a magical weapon has found himself facing some ethereal unit on his own again
or
Oh no! somebody arranged the terrain so there's a building infront of my cannons again
or
Oh no! my Slann sent purple sun through my own troops again

Fighting Newfoundlander
06-05-2013, 23:17
I agree that this banner is just brutal. It's worth its points against any army, and against several menioned here it'll hurt a lot. I'd almost think about lances for either my knights or Crushers for WoC now.

Also, I thinkn a lot of the tactics being considered for dealing with it will be very difficult to put into play if you don't know where it is until well into the game, and as mentioned above, it could be useful to many units.

datalink7
07-05-2013, 06:16
In a head on fight, letting the elven opponent get maximum attacks on you...yeah. Shocking isn't it?

Lower the frontage (which get's you more ranks, negates steadfast handily and makes it easier to protect your own flanks as his unit will be in the way as well as your own flank protectors.

Only delays the inevitable if you can't actually do damage.


Stick the champion and character's on the flanks.
Against hordes this will negate at least 3 attacks each on the unit...for a turn.

Yes.


An even better way is to not charge them in the front (I know, madness!)
That way for at least one round of combat you are facing 1/3rd the attacks, which means a lot less damage.
Often he'll only have 4 guys fighting, which means 2.22 average dead. You'll overcome that with your own ranks and flank bonus.

This would require undead, one of the slower armies, to get a flank charge on elves, one of the faster armies. And if he runs the free reform guy when you get charged, then its impossible anyway. Not saying it's impossible to get a flank charge but it isn't very likely.


As for other things.
Skeletons with a shield get a 6+ ward save, so they die less as they're getting a save.

And they're totally crap in combat (hitting elites on 5's and only S3). They kill less, so they crumble faster. The only combat capable core is Ghouls. It has already been established that you only take Skeletons if you like the models. They do worse in combat than Ghouls, and Zombies are better tarpits.


Ethereals may well struggle to hurt his unit, but they won't be harmable themselves...so they make a pretty useful support unit to pin the enemy in place.

For a little bit, but not long. A single spirit host base (typical size for a vampire count to take) won't be able to hold this unit as they will take 4 wounds (3 ranks plus banner) from crumble, 5 if they get charged. 5 Hexwraiths could do it for one combat. 10 hexwraiths for a couple of combats but then you're spending 300 points to do so. Without the banner, you could count on some wounds to help hold you in place.


Crypt Ghouls pump out lots of poisoned attacks

Ghouls are the best combat unit, but don't generally fare that well against elite elves. A horde of 40 ghouls (typical number to take) vs 40 white lions. White lions kill ~16, Ghouls kill ~7.5. Ghouls crumble another 9, for a total of 25 lost. Next combat goes worse and they disappear.


Corpse cats can give your own troops ASF

Nobody really takes a Corpse Cart for several reasons. First, it is a chariot with movement 4 and its ASF ability has a 6" range. It quickly gets left behind. And then even when it does arrive it gets killed by a stiff breeze.


Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, Vargulfs & Blood Knights don't have magical attacks, perfect for flanking with

Infact, plenty of things can stand up to HE elites.

Vargheists have the best chance to get a flank shot on a unit, but they die very easily to elites with only T4 and no armor. They are more fragile than people think.

Blood Knights are too expensive to be considered a truly competitive option, which is why you rarely see them on the battlefield.

Crypt Horrors offer the best solution, particularly if backed up by a ME. T5, 4+ Regen, and 5 wounds raised back per casting from a level 4 make a nice anvil.

But that's one unit, not "plenty of things."

Vipoid
07-05-2013, 09:37
I agree, it isn't particularly helpful.
That said, you have either been outplayed or done something spectacularly wrong to end out in that situation.


Perhaps, perhaps not.

I mean, I have very little in my army (and even less in an all-comers list) that can take on the banner unit without character support. I'd need a lot of magic support, and would still probably need to get to the unit's flanks in order to beat it.

Basically, the HE player needs to be far less tactical than I do, since he will win just about any head-on confrontation.



Which makes me think that things tend to go spectacularly wrong for you quite often.


Why do you say that? :confused:



Oh no! my character without a magical weapon has found himself facing some ethereal unit on his own again


Character without a magic weapon... madness! :p



Oh no! my Slann sent purple sun through my own troops again

Slaan? O_o



Oh no! somebody arranged the terrain so there's a building infront of my cannons again


Wait... VCs get cannons? :eek:

Excuse me a moment, I have some changes to make to my army list... :evilgrin:

Drashe
07-05-2013, 12:01
Oh no! my Slann sent purple sun through my own troops again

This is a great way to regain power dice i wouldn't call this going spectacularly wrong. I do this all the time with me lizard men.

Vipoid
07-05-2013, 12:04
This is a great way to regain power dice i wouldn't call this going spectacularly wrong. I do this all the time with me lizard men.

But wouldn't it also remove your Slaan from play on a 3+?

Morax
07-05-2013, 12:14
Only if you misfire. I believe he was suggesting doing it on purpose.

Enigmatik1
07-05-2013, 12:32
@Vipoid-

How about running a L4 Vampire Lord with AHW, Forbidden Lore: Beasts, Red Fury and the rest to taste (depending on points, of course)? Do you think that's a viable option?

Vipoid
07-05-2013, 12:44
Only if you misfire. I believe he was suggesting doing it on purpose.

Ah, fair enough.

Although, it still seems like there are better ways to get extra power dice with Slaan, than using purple-sun on your own men. :p


@Vipoid-

How about running a L4 Vampire Lord with AHW, Forbidden Lore: Beasts, Red Fury and the rest to taste (depending on points, of course)? Do you think that's a viable option?

Well, you'd have to be playing close to 3000pts.

That Vampire couldn't be your general, because he doesn't have Lore of the Vampires. So, you'd need an additional Vampire Lord with LotV to be your general.

In terms of the build, you're sacrificing a lot of killing power by having neither a magic weapon, nor quickblood. So, he'd basically be built to kill that one elf unit, and very little else.

Out of interest, why the Lore of Beasts?

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2013, 12:57
Only if you misfire. I believe he was suggesting doing it on purpose.

Nope, wrong on all counts.

Enigmatik1
07-05-2013, 14:52
Well, you'd have to be playing close to 3000pts.

That Vampire couldn't be your general, because he doesn't have Lore of the Vampires. So, you'd need an additional Vampire Lord with LotV to be your general.

In terms of the build, you're sacrificing a lot of killing power by having neither a magic weapon, nor quickblood. So, he'd basically be built to kill that one elf unit, and very little else.

Out of interest, why the Lore of Beasts?

Obviously, I'm not that well versed in the "other" Undead army. My apologies. I hadn't worked out point costs beforehand.

My reasoning behind Beasts was primarily for Savage Beast or Horros. I'd imagine a S8, A9 Vampire Lord with Red Fury could put a serious dent in the Skill Banner unit (or anything else for that matter). Sadly, I think Quickblood is just outside of the allotment for Vampiric Powers...back to the drawing board, I suppose.

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2013, 15:15
My reasoning behind Beasts was primarily for Savage Beast or Horros. I'd imagine a S8, A9 Vampire Lord with Red Fury could put a serious dent in the Skill Banner unit (or anything else for that matter). Sadly, I think Quickblood is just outside of the allotment for Vampiric Powers...back to the drawing board, I suppose.

Give a different Vamp the Forbidden lore then.
Super easy solution.

You can also access ASF with a nearby Corpse cart using a spell cast by the general.
Extra bonus if the spell is Hellish Vigour cast on the higher level as now you get re-rolls to hit AND to wound with the Vamp.
You can just use the Signature Invocation of Nehek though, the 12+ value is likely plenty high enough to hit the corpse cart afterall, you may even be able to get away with the 6+ value version.

The other advantage is that you can then use Transformation of Khadon at less risk.
Turn yourself into a Mountain Chimeara, unleash everything.
Average damage would be 15.6 dead elves.

The Vamp Lord with Savage Beast on himself with Quickblood, extra hand weapon and Red Fury Would average 11.6 wounds.

Mullitron
07-05-2013, 15:58
The banner does seem very strong for its cost and although the dragon prince unit sounds like the best suggestion so far, I can imagine high elf players have only just begun to discover fun combos with it.

That being said its probably going to become a predictable element in most competitive high elf lists and just a calculated pain the the backside for players facing high elves... Except daemon players, I don't know if GW were expecting the daemon book to get complaints of being too powerful again and thought they could simply point to the high elf book as a solution for frustrated opponents of doc, but its quite a nasty counter to the doc book.

On a side note maybe this means they will give a similar banner to dwarfs! A 2+ ward save against all eleven attacks! :)

Morax
08-05-2013, 13:13
Nope, wrong on all counts.

Considering I was sitting next to Drashe when he wrote the comment I think I can speak to his intentions. Second, you are not allowed to place the vortex in such a way as it comes into contact with the caster, there for the only way you can be forced to take that initiative test on your slann is to miscast, walk across it, or to have it randomly move back over him. Since we were only looking at generating power dice, which only happens when you cast it, the other two possibilities are rendered moot. So... I think you will find I was right on all counts...

Drashe
08-05-2013, 16:39
Nope, wrong on all counts.

I was talking about doing it on perpose and if you read the rules for casting placing and resolving a vortex you can place it in base to base contact with the slan (which will already hit a few temple guard as he is in the second rank) then send it strait to the left or strait to the right and right through saurus war to regain power dice so a may continue hammering you with magic.

IcedCrow
09-05-2013, 03:17
Something I thought of...

Allow the Tamurkhan great host rules. This lets demon players ally with warriors or beastmen.

Problem solved.

Avian
09-05-2013, 07:48
What you mean to say is: don't play Daemons or Wood Elves, play something else instead.

Soundwave
09-05-2013, 17:07
Enter the Empire mortar...or dual or quad for that matter.No real solution but steady enough(for empire at least) what was once deemed to be nerfed may see a bit of a come back? The best thing about the new high elf rlease is that it has switched gaming dynamics upon its head!

Lord Inquisitor
09-05-2013, 17:13
If it is on white lions or dragon princes I can't see the mortar doing much.

Empire have plenty of ways of dealing with white lions or dragon princes without using magical attacks. I don't think it'll suddenly make mortars viable unless we start seeing big hordes of swordmasters.

Hrogoff the Destructor
09-05-2013, 17:30
Man... I was thinking about it and it just gets worse and worse for daemon and wood elf players, that is if there is no restriction on heroes.

Take (in a 3000) point game:
Allerielle
Bsb with Allerielle's special banner
Korhil

Take 1500 points of white lions with BotWD
Put the rest in a meaty block of spearmen

Put Allerielle in with the lions, then put Korhil and the bsb in with the spearmen.

The lions are basically already impervious to daemons.

Then Allerielle gets a whopping plus eight to cast in order to make the spearmen a T7 bunker of doom.

Or so I think. I don't have any of the rules handy at the moment.

Soundwave
09-05-2013, 17:48
If it is on white lions or dragon princes I can't see the mortar doing much.

Empire have plenty of ways of dealing with white lions or dragon princes without using magical attacks. I don't think it'll suddenly make mortars viable unless we start seeing big hordes of swordmasters.
You may be suprised, High elves i think to be truly competative will revolve around m.s.u now as we know it...tournament rules may or should put a restriction on the banner? T.b.a? If in friendly games you can tell your opponent to go stick it!
But on the greater picture (yes diverting demons aside) the new release will or may see those models like corpse carts (deny re-rolls,even on zombies) mortars aformentioned e.t.c. making a slight comeback. I have zero to no experiance with the new demon list,although have enough to say it will be ok elves are only toughnes 3 and if they place there eggs into one basket(foolish i.m.o. loss of movment)it should be ok, all i am trying to state is dynamics have changed and 8th ed is only 1/4 of the way there...

Drashe
10-05-2013, 12:48
You may be suprised, High elves i think to be truly competative will revolve around m.s.u now as we know it...tournament rules may or should put a restriction on the banner? T.b.a? If in friendly games you can tell your opponent to go stick it!
But on the greater picture (yes diverting demons aside) the new release will or may see those models like corpse carts (deny re-rolls,even on zombies) mortars aformentioned e.t.c. making a slight comeback. I have zero to no experiance with the new demon list,although have enough to say it will be ok elves are only toughnes 3 and if they place there eggs into one basket(foolish i.m.o. loss of movment)it should be ok, all i am trying to state is dynamics have changed and 8th ed is only 1/4 of the way there...

I think you are wrong about msu and wont get into it here as there is another thread talking about it.

Baluc
10-05-2013, 12:59
You may be suprised, High elves i think to be truly competative will revolve around m.s.u now as we know it...tournament rules may or should put a restriction on the banner? T.b.a? If in friendly games you can tell your opponent to go stick it!
But on the greater picture (yes diverting demons aside) the new release will or may see those models like corpse carts (deny re-rolls,even on zombies) mortars aformentioned e.t.c. making a slight comeback. I have zero to no experiance with the new demon list,although have enough to say it will be ok elves are only toughnes 3 and if they place there eggs into one basket(foolish i.m.o. loss of movment)it should be ok, all i am trying to state is dynamics have changed and 8th ed is only 1/4 of the way there...

I like the direction HEs have taken the game as a whole. The same way that flaming is now a double edge sword, the more players have to think and compromise in the list writting phase the more even I feel like the games will be. Dwarfs not auto-runing grudge throwers helps make t3 infantry more viable in every army, and helps Wood Elf monsters, and MI. Will we see runed machines still? Yeah. But now the dwarf player has to decide if he runes all and hopes not to see BoftheWD or take no runes of grudge throwers and let cannons deal with monsters with regen.

The same way that taking banner of eternal flame on your combat unit isn't an auto include anymore. Very interesting times to be a whfb player.

Soundwave
10-05-2013, 20:03
I think you are wrong about msu and wont get into it here as there is another thread talking about it.

Yes of course...for you are right let me place my 10k worth of high elves into a bunker hugging the banner of the world dragon,hoping to come across my friends demons,what a blast!

Drashe
10-05-2013, 20:27
Yes of course...for you are right let me place my 10k worth of high elves into a bunker hugging the banner of the world dragon,hoping to come across my friends demons,what a blast!

I'm sorry sir you misundersatnd I dont have one unit I have three

najo
11-05-2013, 23:09
I think a very viable solution to the Banner for Daemons is combo charging the rear/flanks. This locks the unit in, doesn't allow the elves to get supporting attacks and reduces the static CR on essential anything but White Lions. If the banner is on White Lions, you want to get that Leadership reduced with either Doom and Darkness or Treason of Tzeentch or make the test harder with Acquiesce. Any hexes that debuff the unit are bonus at that point. Get the unit to lose combat and then break and run. Problem solved.

Soundwave
17-05-2013, 15:22
I'm sorry sir you misundersatnd I dont have one unit I have three

No Sir i may be wrong and you right.Maybe,the book and units as well as play style are still fresh. We will need a touch of time and playtesting ourselves to understand this topic a little more i think:).It is quite amusing how such new releases cause such pandamonium:)

Asensur
17-05-2013, 15:55
How to damage HE deathstar with BotWD when using daemons.

Ok, Daemons have access to 3 Rulebook lores: Metal, Shadows, Death

6. Final Trasmutation: all models in the unit die with 5+, no saves. Stupidity test. <-- Our better option.

5. Pit of shades: small template. Ini test or die, no saves

6. Purple sun of Xereus: magical vortex. Ini test or die, no saves. Remains in play

Also, the 4th spell that does not allow saves, from the Lore of Life.

6. The dwellers Below: all models Str test or die, no saves.

Safe option.

Pick Kairos in your army.

Head A and B knows all spells of Lore of Tzeentch.

Head A chooses 4 spells from Life, Metal, Light and Heavens

head B chooses 4 spells from Death, Beasts, Shadows and Fire.

No-brainer options for head A: Final Transmutation+The Dwellers Below+2 other spells

No-brainer options for head B: Pit of Shades+Purple Sun of Xereus+2 other spells.

STEP 1:

1. Choose head A to cast spells.

2. Choose between Final Transmutation or Dwellers Below.

3. 6-dice roll against the unit.

4. Didn't got IF? you have a bonus re-roll in 1D6 with Kairos Magic Item.

5. Got IF and a bad result at the Miscast? you have a re-roll in 1D6 with Kairos Magic Item.

6. Repeat steps 1-5 each turn, and enjoy.


Risk option (or if Kairos is comped and BotwD is not, weird...).

Pick all levels you can of Metal Heralds/Daemon Princes/Lords of Change wizards.

hope to get Final Transmutation.

6 dice roll against the unit.

Enjoy.

Khellendr0s
19-05-2013, 08:59
With daemons, what about "the rock of inevitability"?? you put the cursed bulwark just 1" in front of the unit and they are about 2 turns out of the game. Hopefully, a new bulwark will appear closing the way more and keep them out of the battlefield 1 or 2 turns more. So you can just ignore that unit and kill easily the rest of the army.

I havent tried, but i would like. Does someone have that experience?

NitrosOkay
19-05-2013, 10:12
I think a very viable solution to the Banner for Daemons is combo charging the rear/flanks. This locks the unit in, doesn't allow the elves to get supporting attacks and reduces the static CR on essential anything but White Lions. If the banner is on White Lions, you want to get that Leadership reduced with either Doom and Darkness or Treason of Tzeentch or make the test harder with Acquiesce. Any hexes that debuff the unit are bonus at that point. Get the unit to lose combat and then break and run. Problem solved.

You think you can win combat against elite high elf infantry who have a 2++?

datalink7
19-05-2013, 18:31
How to damage HE deathstar with BotWD when using daemons.

Ok, Daemons have access to 3 Rulebook lores: Metal, Shadows, Death

6. Final Trasmutation: all models in the unit die with 5+, no saves. Stupidity test. <-- Our better option.

5. Pit of shades: small template. Ini test or die, no saves

6. Purple sun of Xereus: magical vortex. Ini test or die, no saves. Remains in play

Also, the 4th spell that does not allow saves, from the Lore of Life.

6. The dwellers Below: all models Str test or die, no saves.

Safe option.

Pick Kairos in your army.

Head A and B knows all spells of Lore of Tzeentch.

Head A chooses 4 spells from Life, Metal, Light and Heavens

head B chooses 4 spells from Death, Beasts, Shadows and Fire.

No-brainer options for head A: Final Transmutation+The Dwellers Below+2 other spells

No-brainer options for head B: Pit of Shades+Purple Sun of Xereus+2 other spells.

STEP 1:

1. Choose head A to cast spells.

2. Choose between Final Transmutation or Dwellers Below.

3. 6-dice roll against the unit.

4. Didn't got IF? you have a bonus re-roll in 1D6 with Kairos Magic Item.

5. Got IF and a bad result at the Miscast? you have a re-roll in 1D6 with Kairos Magic Item.

6. Repeat steps 1-5 each turn, and enjoy.


Risk option (or if Kairos is comped and BotwD is not, weird...).

Pick all levels you can of Metal Heralds/Daemon Princes/Lords of Change wizards.

hope to get Final Transmutation.

6 dice roll against the unit.

Enjoy.

Still doesn't work in the end. I saw someone try this the other day in the store. These spells do a ton of damage, but can't finish off the unit because you are only doing 50 percent damage each time, so the smaller the unit gets the less damage you do. He reduced the White Lions to about 8 models just with these spells before they got into hand to hand, but couldn't finish off the 8. And he used multiple magic phases in an attempt to do this, which means the rest of the High Elf army was untouched.

Baluc
19-05-2013, 19:37
Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma

Vipoid
19-05-2013, 20:43
Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma

Is that the entire strategy? :eyebrows:

Sexiest_hero
20-05-2013, 03:06
Is that the entire strategy? :eyebrows:

It works for herdstone beastmen!

Shadeseraph
20-05-2013, 06:21
FYI, ETC has comped the banner to cost one dispel dice. Surprisingly, the BoH is comped harsher, at 2PD and 1DD. Even more surprisingly, you can field both, although you can't field a dispel scroll then.

I'd like to give some ideas about how DoC can deal with the banner, but I don't know too much about DoC to do that.

Daenerys Targaryen
20-05-2013, 19:25
Still doesn't work in the end. I saw someone try this the other day in the store. These spells do a ton of damage, but can't finish off the unit because you are only doing 50 percent damage each time, so the smaller the unit gets the less damage you do. He reduced the White Lions to about 8 models just with these spells before they got into hand to hand, but couldn't finish off the 8. And he used multiple magic phases in an attempt to do this, which means the rest of the High Elf army was untouched.

Actually, you're only doing 33% damage to White Lions due to their S4. And you still need to generate enough power dice each round, (so don't roll low!) And that's also assuming you didn't just use Kairos' re-roll to ensure you IF spell, but then don't roll the result that loses wizard levels (and random spells!) and/or or get out right sucked into the warp for your troubles... (aka: in Kairos' case, the Dimensional Cascade result should simply be re-named to "Tzeentch stole his Lucky Charms as part of a complete breakfest!")

Avian
20-05-2013, 19:47
Under ETC rules things are very different. For one thing it's a team tournament and defensive builds are a part of that. You don't need to or expect to win big. Secondly, there's a degree of control over which army you're facing and if you can't get a reasonably good chance of meeting Daemons it might not be worth it.