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Eternus
07-05-2013, 08:22
It seems quite obvious to me that the best way to defeat Skaven is to take out their BSB and General as fast as possible, to allow you to breaktheir units in combat or make them run through panic. It also helps if you can take out their level 4 Grey Seer, especially if he is also their general.

So, as all of these actions require you to be able to strike at characters in units that are hidden behind more of an almost unbreakable Great Wall of Vermin rather than a couple of speed bumps, what are the best ways to take these characters out, especially at low point value games (1000-1500)?

I am wondering about herding a unit of 3 Vargheists with something that will block their LOS until I'm ready to let them go, then send them in set out two wide and one at the back, maximinsing the number of attacks on the character I want to kill most. No point taking a unit Champion for the extra attack, because they'll just challenge with a champion and stop all his attacks from striking where I want them.

Is this viable? Any better ideas?

Kayosiv
07-05-2013, 09:30
There is nothing forcing champions to accept challenges unless the rules specifically say so (blood knights for example). There is also 0 penalty for refusing to fight with your champion if he is challenged. He is not moved to the back ranks like a character. He does not care at all.

Yes, the challenge rules are dumb, but it means that it is almost always a good idea to take a vargoyle.

Vipoid
07-05-2013, 10:04
I'd suggest 2 Vargheists and 1 Champion, arranged in a conga-line - with the champion at the front.

When you charge, the enemy will only be able to attack your champion. So, unless a character manages to kill him at a higher initiative-step, the remaining 2 vargheists will be untouched. But, thanks to step-up, they'll be able to attack normally.

(As above, you can decline a challenge with no penalties.)

Anyway, I've heard about this tactic before (I've yet to try it myself), but it seems like it might be useful for you. :)

CauCaSus
07-05-2013, 10:32
Death magic.

Eternus
07-05-2013, 10:59
Thanks everyone for the feedback - conga line of Vargheists it is then, with a Champion. Thanks Kayosiv for pointing out the differences with Champion Challenges.

Now just need a fast unit that can move ahead of the Vargheists and prevent them from charging off, or lend them high Ld to restrain with... They might team well with my Hex Wraiths for this, or, if positioned right in front, a Banshee is probably a cheaper option, and will then be excellently placed once the Ld bonuses are gone to knock some serious wounds off stuff.

Vipoid
07-05-2013, 11:15
Now just need a fast unit that can move ahead of the Vargheists and prevent them from charging off, or lend them high Ld to restrain with... They might team well with my Hex Wraiths for this, or, if positioned right in front, a Banshee is probably a cheaper option, and will then be excellently placed once the Ld bonuses are gone to knock some serious wounds off stuff.

Well, you could always just start the vargheists facing backwards, and then reverse their facing the turn before you want them to charge.

They're skirmishers, so you can just reform them with no penalties when they move.

Eternus
07-05-2013, 11:47
I would, but the target unit isn't going to come towards me. It'll be a unit of Clanrats sitting behind a unit of 50 or so Slaves using the improved Ld and re-roll from ranks and BSB. Not only do I have to go and get them, I need to be able to avoid the Slaves unit, so I thought a flying unit would work best. Hex Wraiths would be perfect as assassins, except their special attack in the move phase can't pick out a model, so it needs to be done close up by something that has half a chance of taking out a character in one go.

Luckily, things like Grey Seers don't tend to be fairly squishy, so I'm hoping 8 strength 5 attacks hitting on 4's or even 3's and wounding on 3's will do the trick.

I know I can reform to face away each turn, but the Slaves will probably be the closest target until I fly over or around them.

Tuttivillus
08-05-2013, 19:19
Question is, will there be enough space to fit kongaline between Great Wall of Vermin and said character unit? Idea is good, but as Caucasus suggested, Death Magic snipes work wonders against Skaven (low T, S and Ld).

Eternus
09-05-2013, 14:53
Though I agree, I don't think Death Magic is really an option in low point games, because I need at least two Vamp magic users in case my general dies, to stop the army coming to bits.

Von Wibble
09-05-2013, 21:18
An interesting approach that I wouldn't go for myself - I'd figure that if my general dies its probably game over anyway (assuming I'm doing nothing suicidal and not throwing loads of dice at his spells) - I can't see those extra spell casters doing much in other situations (2 casters total is plenty in smaller games).

Skaven aren't low ld against death magic sig spell as the latest faq allows general's ld to be used. But there are other good character sniping spells in there.