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GuroG
07-05-2013, 13:26
Hi all,

I'm thinking of getting into WFB with high elves as I'm being given the HE from the island of blood box set & I'm looking at spending around 200 on more HE's models.

Most of my group are 40k players, but one has Skaven, another has HE & Orc.

I think I might like WFB better then 40k being a DnD player & LoTR's fan.

So here goes:

Lord High Elf Prince on Griffon
Hero High Elf Mage Level 2
Core Silver Helms & Shields x8
Core Silver Helms & Shields x8
Core Spearmen x16
Core Lothern Sea Guard & Shields x10
Special Swordmasters of Hoeth x10
Special Lion Chariot of Chrace x1
Special Dragon Princes x10
Rare Flamepyre Pheonix x1

so this rolls in 1807 (I haven't spend any points on magic items or special characters yet) & I'm aiming for some good lists between 1000 - 2500pts so all help welcome please?

Thanks in advance!

Oberon
07-05-2013, 13:44
I'd like to not read all those core and special etc notes, just write core once and all core units under that, and so on. Anyway, notes in random order:
Spearmen are too small, add them to LSG or the other way round to make one real unit.
Command groups! Musician always, banner in combat units (not throwaway units, swordmasters at the moment are on the brink of being a throwaway), champion if you want to put a character in the same unit.

You will want shooting, phoenixes are quite good apparently, elite infantry (esp. phoenix guard,but also white lions) are good as before (or even more so), also the less core you have the better often. Eagles are OP (in units of 1).

Item suggestions:
Mage: ring of fury (you have only the one mage, so will have dice to spare for bound items as well), dispell scroll (always a good choice, especially when you can't really match the opponent in wizard levels, I'd really rather take an archmage), consider high magic.

Prince:dragon armour, sword of +2 str (ogre blade?), charmed shield, talisman of preservation, golden crown of atrazar->3+ armour, 2+ ward to first hit, 2+ ward to first wound, 4+ ward to the rest, str6 always.

Dragon princes: flaming banner could be nice, or reroll banner in case you lose (then again, you could also try not to engage when you will lose), banner of world dragon is good if you will be facing wood elves, skaven, people with lots of magic weapons and spells, or I don't know, daemons? If you Don't go for banner of world dragon, try spellshield for the DP champion in addition to the banner of your choice, it will give you 5++ ward against spells (in combination with 6++ ward from dragon armour).

GuroG
07-05-2013, 13:59
I'd like to not read all those core and special etc notes, just write core once and all core units under that, and so on. Anyway, notes in random order:
Spearmen are too small, add them to LSG or the other way round to make one real unit.
Command groups! Musician always, banner in combat units (not throwaway units, swordmasters at the moment are on the brink of being a throwaway), champion if you want to put a character in the same unit.

You will want shooting, phoenixes are quite good apparently, elite infantry (esp. phoenix guard,but also white lions) are good as before (or even more so), also the less core you have the better often. Eagles are OP (in units of 1).

Item suggestions:
Mage: ring of fury (you have only the one mage, so will have dice to spare for bound items as well), dispell scroll (always a good choice, especially when you can't really match the opponent in wizard levels, I'd really rather take an archmage), consider high magic.

Prince:dragon armour, sword of +2 str (ogre blade?), charmed shield, talisman of preservation, golden crown of atrazar->3+ armour, 2+ ward to first hit, 2+ ward to first wound, 4+ ward to the rest, str6 always.

Dragon princes: flaming banner could be nice, or reroll banner in case you lose (then again, you could also try not to engage when you will lose), banner of world dragon is good if you will be facing wood elves, skaven, people with lots of magic weapons and spells, or I don't know, daemons? If you Don't go for banner of world dragon, try spellshield for the DP champion in addition to the banner of your choice, it will give you 5++ ward against spells (in combination with 6++ ward from dragon armour).

Thanks for those pointers sorry if my post was a bit messy I'm all good with 40k but this is completely new so I'm expecting to get battered & don't really know what works well & in what combinations.

selecta
07-05-2013, 14:22
dont take the dragon world banner if u know facing a daemon player spend the point on more troops.

Brother Horatio
07-05-2013, 17:07
Welcome to fantasy! It's an exciting time to be playing.

Prince: You want a combination of items that will allow you to hit hard in combat while being survivable. Star Lance, Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone gives you a 2+ re-rollable armor save, and 40 more points to spend on items. I would take the Golden Crown of Atrazar.

Mage: Add a dispel scroll, otherwise he's fine. I would suggest the Lore of Life for him, to buff your units.

On to your units. You have your units grouped in small batches of 8-10 models. Obviously, this is the norm in 40k, but it's ineffective in fantasy. The reasons are twofold:
1) Larger numbers of units allow you to gain rank bonuses. For each complete rank of 5 models you have, you get a +1 bonus to your Combat Resolution
2) More importantly, if you have more ranks than your opponent, you gain the Steadfast special rule, meaning you won't take penalties to your break test when you lose combat. Even more importantly, if you have more ranks than your opponent, he loses the Steadfast rule, meaning there is a much better chance of you breaking him. This mechanic is the core of fantasy combat, so make sure you build your list accordingly!

Elves have some awesome advantages in this regard. They get the Martial Prowess rule, which allows them to fight and shoot with an extra rank, giving them more attacks than their opponents. You want to contruct your units to take advantage of this.

Silver Helms: Combine these two units to form a single unit of 15. They will get to attack with all 15 models, and still have 2 ranks to deny steadfast, which is great. Shields are a must-have, good call. A hero added to this unit would really help them do some damage!

Spearmen and Lothern Seaguard: As posted previously, combine these units, picking one or the other. I would go for the Lothern Sea Guard, as your army doesn't have much shooting. If you take a unit of 20 Seaguard, all 20 models can fight in combat, and 17 of them will be able to shoot, thanks to Martial Prowess and Volley fire. If you want to make sure this unit will hold the line, boost their numbers to 30 so that they can maintain their Steadfast for longer. Additionally, you can choose to deploy them 10 wide, 3 ranks deep to get all 30 Seaguard shooting.

White Lions and Swordmasters: Same as above, take them in slightly larger units. I think these work well in units of 15. They're small, manueverable, and they pack a punch.

Dragon Princes: Again, 15 is the magic number. Dragon Princes are pretty expensive, fragile, and not as good as the elven foot troops in my opinion, so if you need to cut something for points, I would cut these guys. Others may disagree, but thats my 2 cents.

For all of the above units: I never leave without a full command of a champion, musician, and standard bearer. You're going to hear arguments against champions and musicians, (your units should all have banners), but I always take them. If you need to flee a charge, the musician helps you rally, and his combat reform ability allows you to get the most out of the awesome movement 5 on your elves. Champions give you an extra attack, but more importantly, they can take a challenge for your more vulnerable mage, or, take the hit for your prince while he wails on the enemy toops, racking up kills. Also, the models are cool.

Lion Chariot: Super cool model... but it also costs about as much as 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers. Of which you should have at least 2. Precious, precious repeaters... play a couple games with them in your list and you will see what I mean!

Flamespyre Phoenix: I think the Frostheart beats out the Flamespyre. With higher toughness, str, an armor save, and that incredible -1 str to enemies in base contact, awesome! You always want to look for ways to increase your Elves' survivability, and reducing enemy Strength is a good way to do this. Using the Phoenix (and your prince on a griffon), keep a couple of things in mind. If the Phoenix charges off on his own into a big ranked unit, he's going to get his butt kicked and run away, so use him to support your larger units in combat. Alternatively, he can hunt warmachines and other backfield units, generally making a nuisance of himself.

Bolt Throwers: Get some!!!!

Great Eagles/Skycutters: These relatively cheap little units have so many uses, like hunting down warmachines, skirmishers/scouts, fast cavalry, unwary wizards, missile units... And the skycutter is such a cool model! They have amazing versatility, and if they die... whatever. Eagles are especially going to make themselves useful against night goblin fanatics and skaven weapons teams. Always good to keep your local opponents in mind!

Noble with an Army Battle Standard: This guy is a really good inclusion in any list. Give him a horse, a lance, armor, and stick him with the Silver Helms. You can hook him up with the Armor of Caledor, to protect him, or give him an item, but survivability is a good choice for the battle standard bearer. He's cheap, does fair damage, and keeps your army from running: awesome!

That was a lot of information, but hopefully that sets a few things straight. As always, stick with the models you think are cool, but remember that the mechanics of rank bonuses and Steadfast are crucial to keep in mind when constructing your list and strategies.

Good hunting!

GuroG
07-05-2013, 17:48
Welcome to fantasy! It's an exciting time to be playing.

Prince: You want a combination of items that will allow you to hit hard in combat while being survivable. Star Lance, Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone gives you a 2+ re-rollable armor save, and 40 more points to spend on items. I would take the Golden Crown of Atrazar.

Mage: Add a dispel scroll, otherwise he's fine. I would suggest the Lore of Life for him, to buff your units.

On to your units. You have your units grouped in small batches of 8-10 models. Obviously, this is the norm in 40k, but it's ineffective in fantasy. The reasons are twofold:
1) Larger numbers of units allow you to gain rank bonuses. For each complete rank of 5 models you have, you get a +1 bonus to your Combat Resolution
2) More importantly, if you have more ranks than your opponent, you gain the Steadfast special rule, meaning you won't take penalties to your break test when you lose combat. Even more importantly, if you have more ranks than your opponent, he loses the Steadfast rule, meaning there is a much better chance of you breaking him. This mechanic is the core of fantasy combat, so make sure you build your list accordingly!

Elves have some awesome advantages in this regard. They get the Martial Prowess rule, which allows them to fight and shoot with an extra rank, giving them more attacks than their opponents. You want to contruct your units to take advantage of this.

Silver Helms: Combine these two units to form a single unit of 15. They will get to attack with all 15 models, and still have 2 ranks to deny steadfast, which is great. Shields are a must-have, good call. A hero added to this unit would really help them do some damage!

Spearmen and Lothern Seaguard: As posted previously, combine these units, picking one or the other. I would go for the Lothern Sea Guard, as your army doesn't have much shooting. If you take a unit of 20 Seaguard, all 20 models can fight in combat, and 17 of them will be able to shoot, thanks to Martial Prowess and Volley fire. If you want to make sure this unit will hold the line, boost their numbers to 30 so that they can maintain their Steadfast for longer. Additionally, you can choose to deploy them 10 wide, 3 ranks deep to get all 30 Seaguard shooting.

White Lions and Swordmasters: Same as above, take them in slightly larger units. I think these work well in units of 15. They're small, manueverable, and they pack a punch.

Dragon Princes: Again, 15 is the magic number. Dragon Princes are pretty expensive, fragile, and not as good as the elven foot troops in my opinion, so if you need to cut something for points, I would cut these guys. Others may disagree, but thats my 2 cents.

For all of the above units: I never leave without a full command of a champion, musician, and standard bearer. You're going to hear arguments against champions and musicians, (your units should all have banners), but I always take them. If you need to flee a charge, the musician helps you rally, and his combat reform ability allows you to get the most out of the awesome movement 5 on your elves. Champions give you an extra attack, but more importantly, they can take a challenge for your more vulnerable mage, or, take the hit for your prince while he wails on the enemy toops, racking up kills. Also, the models are cool.

Lion Chariot: Super cool model... but it also costs about as much as 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers. Of which you should have at least 2. Precious, precious repeaters... play a couple games with them in your list and you will see what I mean!

Flamespyre Phoenix: I think the Frostheart beats out the Flamespyre. With higher toughness, str, an armor save, and that incredible -1 str to enemies in base contact, awesome! You always want to look for ways to increase your Elves' survivability, and reducing enemy Strength is a good way to do this. Using the Phoenix (and your prince on a griffon), keep a couple of things in mind. If the Phoenix charges off on his own into a big ranked unit, he's going to get his butt kicked and run away, so use him to support your larger units in combat. Alternatively, he can hunt warmachines and other backfield units, generally making a nuisance of himself.

Bolt Throwers: Get some!!!!

Great Eagles/Skycutters: These relatively cheap little units have so many uses, like hunting down warmachines, skirmishers/scouts, fast cavalry, unwary wizards, missile units... And the skycutter is such a cool model! They have amazing versatility, and if they die... whatever. Eagles are especially going to make themselves useful against night goblin fanatics and skaven weapons teams. Always good to keep your local opponents in mind!

Noble with an Army Battle Standard: This guy is a really good inclusion in any list. Give him a horse, a lance, armor, and stick him with the Silver Helms. You can hook him up with the Armor of Caledor, to protect him, or give him an item, but survivability is a good choice for the battle standard bearer. He's cheap, does fair damage, and keeps your army from running: awesome!

That was a lot of information, but hopefully that sets a few things straight. As always, stick with the models you think are cool, but remember that the mechanics of rank bonuses and Steadfast are crucial to keep in mind when constructing your list and strategies.

Good hunting!

Thanks so much for your help I'll re look at my shopping list.

Really looking forward to playing some WFB

Brother Horatio
07-05-2013, 20:04
No problem, happy to help, nothing sucks more than buying models you won't use!

Post a second draft of your list when you've got one.

Kayosiv
07-05-2013, 21:12
Lord High Elf Prince on Griffon
Hero High Elf Mage Level 2
Core Silver Helms & Shields x8
Core Silver Helms & Shields x8
Core Spearmen x16
Core Lothern Sea Guard & Shields x10
Special Swordmasters of Hoeth x10
Special Lion Chariot of Chrace x1
Special Dragon Princes x10
Rare Flamepyre Pheonix x1


Not to go too in depth because Brother Horatio already covered a lot, but some quick points.

I wouldn't take a Griffon on a Lord. Griffon's are best used on noble's. Princes can ride the vastly superior dragons and you should take advantage of that. Having an armor save and more wounds, plus the ability to breath fire, makes dragons worth the extra points you pay.

Combine those silver helms into a unit of 15.

Spearmen are pointless to take in a unit size of less than 20. Sea Guard are pointless to take in units of less than 15. I would turn those sea guard into archers and use the leftover points to get more spearmen.

Swordmasters and Dragon princes are actually fine in units of 10. Because they have more attacks, they already have just as many attacks as a unit of 15 other units in groups of 10. Getting 5 more will of course grant you even more attacks, but it is expensive.

Fire Phoenixes are just as good as frost phoenixes. That is to say, both are amazingly good. Just don't try to win combats with your fire phoenix. It is the frost phoenix's job to smash things. The fire phoenix's just is to take out weak things that can't fight well and to fly over units and burn them.

Kayosiv
07-05-2013, 21:13
Internet is being wonky. Sorry for the double post.

NitrosOkay
07-05-2013, 21:34
Prince:dragon armour, sword of +2 str (ogre blade?), charmed shield, talisman of preservation, golden crown of atrazar->3+ armour, 2+ ward to first hit, 2+ ward to first wound, 4+ ward to the rest, str6 always.


Talisman of Preservation and Golden Crown of Atrazar are both talismans, that's illegal.

Brother Horatio
07-05-2013, 22:00
I wouldn't take a Griffon on a Lord. Griffon's are best used on noble's. Princes can ride the vastly superior dragons and you should take advantage of that. Having an armor save and more wounds, plus the ability to breath fire, makes dragons worth the extra points you pay.

Fire Phoenixes are just as good as frost phoenixes. That is to say, both are amazingly good. Just don't try to win combats with your fire phoenix. It is the frost phoenix's job to smash things. The fire phoenix's just is to take out weak things that can't fight well and to fly over units and burn them.

Both good points, especially since I just flat out missed that nobles can take griffons in the new army book! Dragons are definitely a better choice for a Prince, but I figured Gurog is planning on using the model from Island of Blood, and, well, work with what you've got...

The point made about the Fire Phoenix is a good one, especially as this list doesn't have a lot in the way of ranged/magical damage sources, so those fly-bys would be a welcome addition.

GuroG
07-05-2013, 22:27
Not to go too in depth because Brother Horatio already covered a lot, but some quick points.

I wouldn't take a Griffon on a Lord. Griffon's are best used on noble's. Princes can ride the vastly superior dragons and you should take advantage of that. Having an armor save and more wounds, plus the ability to breath fire, makes dragons worth the extra points you pay.

Combine those silver helms into a unit of 15.

Spearmen are pointless to take in a unit size of less than 20. Sea Guard are pointless to take in units of less than 15. I would turn those sea guard into archers and use the leftover points to get more spearmen.

Swordmasters and Dragon princes are actually fine in units of 10. Because they have more attacks, they already have just as many attacks as a unit of 15 other units in groups of 10. Getting 5 more will of course grant you even more attacks, but it is expensive.

Fire Phoenixes are just as good as frost phoenixes. That is to say, both are amazingly good. Just don't try to win combats with your fire phoenix. It is the frost phoenix's job to smash things. The fire phoenix's just is to take out weak things that can't fight well and to fly over units and burn them.


Both good points, especially since I just flat out missed that nobles can take griffons in the new army book! Dragons are definitely a better choice for a Prince, but I figured Gurog is planning on using the model from Island of Blood, and, well, work with what you've got...

The point made about the Fire Phoenix is a good one, especially as this list doesn't have a lot in the way of ranged/magical damage sources, so those fly-bys would be a welcome addition.

Ok guys you both seem like switched on guys with this WFB scene, yep I'm being given the high elves from Island of blood & have around 200 to spend on extra stuff.

Now I did allow for a dragon in my shopping list as you'd got to love dragons.... hey!

So any thoughts on how I should blow 200 on high elves?

Kayosiv
07-05-2013, 23:35
$300 eh? Hmmm. Well you've already got the griffon, mage, swordmasters, and sea guard... so.

Dragon, $53
Phoenix $60
2 boxes of dragon princes $66
Battalion Box $120 (contains your lion chariot, some siler helms, spearmen, and archers for effectively free)
Extra box of silver helms. $35.

about $335 or just over your budget of 200 pounds. This is retail prices would I would suggest you DO NOT USE. You can generally find 10-20% discounts from online retailers and some Indy stores.

GuroG
07-05-2013, 23:49
$300 eh? Hmmm. Well you've already got the griffon, mage, swordmasters, and sea guard... so.

Dragon, $53
Phoenix $60
2 boxes of dragon princes $66
Battalion Box $120 (contains your lion chariot, some siler helms, spearmen, and archers for effectively free)
Extra box of silver helms. $35.

about $335 or just over your budget of 200 pounds. This is retail prices would I would suggest you DO NOT USE. You can generally find 10-20% discounts from online retailers and some Indy stores.

Thanks for your advice I have some stuff to exchange unwanted 40k presents but from there on in it'll be my usual store that offers good discounts.

GuroG
08-05-2013, 00:00
So after all this advice my list has jumped to 2500pts and still no magic items, swords, shields etc brought for the list. Would you guys suggest buying the mount a mount or just sticking him in foot unit?

Are any of the named characters worth getting?

Here's the list runs in at 2241 leaving 259

Lord High Elf Prince
Star Dragon


Heroes High Elf Mage
Level 2

Core Silver Helms x15
Shields x15
Musician x1
Standard Bearer x1

High Elf Archers x16
Light Armour x16
Standard Bearer x1

High Elf Spearmen x20
Musician x1
Standard Bearer x1

Special Swordmasters of Hoeth x10
Musician x1
Standard Bearer x1

Dragon Princes x10
Musician x1
Standard Bearer x1

Rare Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower x1

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower x1

Frostheart Phoenix x1

GuroG
08-05-2013, 12:27
Hey all,

Many thanks to you for advice on what & how to put a HE list together, so today I took the plunge & brought some HE to get going with my step into WFB.

So in addition to the HE i'm being given from Island of Blood, I got the following which cost me 40 after exchanging loads of unwanted 40k stuff.

Lord on a dragon
phoenix
2x bolt throwers
loremaster of hoeth
1x spearmen
1x archers
2x silverhelms
2x dragon princes
Army book

Have also arrange a intro game with manager of the enfield store & have found some other local places that play WFB.

So wish me luck & thanks again.

Brother Horatio
08-05-2013, 16:48
You got all that for 40 GBP!!!! You have already mastered an important WFB skill, getting your army for a good price! Well done.

In terms of more models to buy, I would get more spearmen. They're solid troops for their points but they are extremely squishy. Extra ranks to keep your steadfast is never a bad thing.

Keeping the mage on foot isn't a bad idea, the spearmen are a decent bunker for him. Alternatively, you can give him a mount and stick him with the Silver Helms, and give them the already infamous Banner of the World Dragon. This would give the mage and his unit a 2+ ward save against magical attacks, including miscast results.

The fact that the banner negates so much of the potential damage from the miscast table is actually one of my favorite things about it, as it gives you a lot of freedom to be aggressive with your spellcasting. Plus, if they're close to your Prince and his Dragon, he's Stubborn! Super cool.

Other than that, your list is solid. What are you thinking for Item Combos for your prince?

Oberon
08-05-2013, 17:01
Except you can't buy magic banners to silver helms, or indeed any core but spearmen (and their banner allowance isn't enough for the banner of world dragon). All special choices with banner option can the bowd, as can the BSB obviously (though he should be buying protection IMO ).


Great choice of models there. You have enough archers for one unit but not enough spears (min. size is 10, but you really shouldn't be fielding less thant 20, ever), combining the two units would get you a unit of 32 seaguard, pretty respectable unit that can do it all (fast movement of 5, everybody has a bow, and depending on formation all or almost all can attack in combat). Of course, it might not be pretty :/ Buying another box of spearmen and making a couple of fillers (larger bases to stand in for multiple dudes, maybe a mini-diorama or something to make it look not cheap) is the more legit choice.

GuroG
08-05-2013, 18:11
You got all that for 40 GBP!!!! You have already mastered an important WFB skill, getting your army for a good price! Well done.

In terms of more models to buy, I would get more spearmen. They're solid troops for their points but they are extremely squishy. Extra ranks to keep your steadfast is never a bad thing.

Keeping the mage on foot isn't a bad idea, the spearmen are a decent bunker for him. Alternatively, you can give him a mount and stick him with the Silver Helms, and give them the already infamous Banner of the World Dragon. This would give the mage and his unit a 2+ ward save against magical attacks, including miscast results.

The fact that the banner negates so much of the potential damage from the miscast table is actually one of my favorite things about it, as it gives you a lot of freedom to be aggressive with your spellcasting. Plus, if they're close to your Prince and his Dragon, he's Stubborn! Super cool.

Other than that, your list is solid. What are you thinking for Item Combos for your prince?

I traded lots of unwanted 40k presents that I've been unable to decide what to do with until now