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thrawn
07-05-2013, 20:57
so there are HE tactic threads, and threads about optimum sea guard sizes, etc. etc. but i would like to address what i think is the corner stone to the new HE army book, extra rank h2h and extra rank shooting.

using some basic math hammer, your units can now outclass almost anyone else. whereas he's forced to take a hoard to get those extra attacks, you don't need too. the best part, you can maximise more attacks per frontage then he can. it also makes small units of archers very viable (15 archers, 5x3, get 15 shots, and 15 attacks, ASF).

the HE magic seems to compliment this. using drain magic you can level the playing field, so that your taking his units on without buffs (or your have no hexes) and you can outclass his guys on a one on one fight.

what are your thoughts? are the new HE the MSU generals dream come true? i'm thinking yes, and i'm going to start a HE army for just this reason. i'm getting sick and tired of death star units.

Ironhand
07-05-2013, 21:10
Interesting thought. I'm tempted to build an MSU High Elf army just to see if I can make it work.

Von Wibble
08-05-2013, 18:54
I really hope they can work that way. Small units of White Lions deserve a mention - not only do they all get to strike for a small footprint, they are also stubborn so can be very effective roadblocks.

Drashe
08-05-2013, 19:43
so there are HE tactic threads, and threads about optimum sea guard sizes, etc. etc. but i would like to address what i think is the corner stone to the new HE army book, extra rank h2h and extra rank shooting.

using some basic math hammer, your units can now outclass almost anyone else. whereas he's forced to take a hoard to get those extra attacks, you don't need too. the best part, you can maximise more attacks per frontage then he can. it also makes small units of archers very viable (15 archers, 5x3, get 15 shots, and 15 attacks, ASF).

the HE magic seems to compliment this. using drain magic you can level the playing field, so that your taking his units on without buffs (or your have no hexes) and you can outclass his guys on a one on one fight.

what are your thoughts? are the new HE the MSU generals dream come true? i'm thinking yes, and i'm going to start a HE army for just this reason. i'm getting sick and tired of death star units.

Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news but in unrestricted 8th edidtion hordes are king and msu just cant compete small units of archers for example Arent viable as in comprable points they just wont do enough damage to your opponents hordes to make them Effective or worth taking.

a18no
08-05-2013, 20:05
Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news but in unrestricted 8th edidtion hordes are king and msu just cant compete small units of archers for example Arent viable as in comprable points they just wont do enough damage to your opponents hordes to make them Effective or worth taking.

Just to add to this comment, If your opponent killed 80 figs out of 120 in your army. You'd be better served with them placed in 3 units of 40 instead of 8 of 15. Remember that a unit with 1 body left worth 0 victory pts.

thrawn
09-05-2013, 00:23
Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news but in unrestricted 8th edidtion hordes are king and msu just cant compete small units of archers for example Arent viable as in comprable points they just wont do enough damage to your opponents hordes to make them Effective or worth taking.

I don't agree. got back from a competitive tourney in march. many brought hordes of ogres, they didn't do too well. we placed 5th out of 32, used chaos dwarfs and new daemons. we massacred ogres and orcs and goblins and chaos warriors. what gave us the hardest time was empire.

don't worry, you didn't bear any bad news.

adam352
09-05-2013, 12:02
Not quite sure how effective it would be but I like the idea of bringing lots of small, maneuverable units. Reminds me of my 7th ed HE army, 4 chariots and a dragon in 2K.

Shame they took out the banner of Ellyrion.

I'm definitely going to give this a look!

kaulem
09-05-2013, 13:00
speaking of alternate unit sizes and formations.... Anyone else notice that high elf cavalry can now be quite effective in a 3x3 formation?

a18no
09-05-2013, 14:30
speaking of alternate unit sizes and formations.... Anyone else notice that high elf cavalry can now be quite effective in a 3x3 formation?

Why??

You got 9 attacks, 12 from DP. + 3 attack from horses (think they don't get the bonus)
This unit can't deny rank bonus

With 9, in 5+4, you got 9 attacks, 14 from DP plus you get 5 horses... still can't deny rank bonus.

Oberon
09-05-2013, 14:38
3 wide is much more maneuverable (sp) and you can strike back at them with fewer dudes. Hiding characters is also easier when 3 wide. Then again, when 5 wide you would be steadfast against single model units until only 4 guys were left...

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2013, 15:25
MSU has always been feasible with high elves.

I'm not sure it's any more feasible now though, although blocks of archers can be deployed even narrower due to getting that 3rd rank available to shoot.
So you can take a unit of 12 of them and deploy in a 4x3 formation, rather than the previous 6x2 formation to all shoot.

Losing out on re-rolls to hit with Swordmasters and White lions certainly hurts the MSU playstyle.
Although it does depend on exactly how small a unit you want to use, blocks of 20 as small units work fine, especially so due to the general points drop across the board they got.
Moving towards the 10 man size becomes less beneficial.

a18no
09-05-2013, 15:47
3 wide is much more maneuverable (sp) and you can strike back at them with fewer dudes. Hiding characters is also easier when 3 wide. Then again, when 5 wide you would be steadfast against single model units until only 4 guys were left...

More Maneuverable?? Sorry, but you're loosing 50mm wide to get 50mm deep. Try to squeeze that unit through your front line and you'll see that you won't get that much maneuvrability.

Soundwave
09-05-2013, 16:16
Totally!M.s.u with high elves is a great key to a good and challenging force for any opponent!A natural all comers list,the key word for all previous posts thus far is manouverability(sory probably spelt wrong),you will be dealing with the absoloute quickest army in the game,infantry move a standard 5 silver helms in core move 8 flying monsters,chariots the list goes on...the only drawback of m.s.u will be a fully fledged cavalry force to sweep it aside. I think personally a few medium units(of spearmen preferable) say 30 to 20 will make a very sound ideal:).

Morax
09-05-2013, 18:41
MSU has always been a quick and painless massacre for my all comers Empire list. It yields victory points hand over fist and claims next to none from me. Quicker? Maybe, but still ineffective. I don't care how many combo charges you set up, my 60 man horde rolls over 2 units a turn, the Demigyphs eat every thing they touch and warmachines keep my lanes hyper clear as there aren't enough threats on the table. So please please please make the effort to bring MSU back to the fore-front. I can always use more easy tournament wins.

Asuryan's Spear
09-05-2013, 19:24
In a word... yes

i played a kinda MSU army with lots of sisters of averlorn and archers and i spent the game pouring BS5 Str 4 goodness into the hordes... they died pretty quick and never even got into combat with them. add in 2 sky cutters and a few eagle claws and your golden

thrawn
09-05-2013, 19:57
MSU has always been a quick and painless massacre for my all comers Empire list. It yields victory points hand over fist and claims next to none from me. Quicker? Maybe, but still ineffective. I don't care how many combo charges you set up, my 60 man horde rolls over 2 units a turn, the Demigyphs eat every thing they touch and warmachines keep my lanes hyper clear as there aren't enough threats on the table. So please please please make the effort to bring MSU back to the fore-front. I can always use more easy tournament wins.

haha! your on! i like big hordes of 60 infantry, i can delay them with my great eagles and then pick up easy points on everything else. and as for the chickens, i always take 3-4 eagle claws and 2 sky cutters, i'll happily take those points too!

the new level 6 high magic spell (forgot what it's called now) is border line too good versus hordes of infantry. plus, combining walk between worlds and banner of the world dragon and you got an invinsible unit. it begs taking an archmage.

once i get my all my models i'm going to start playtesting HE MSU armies in earnest. i'm really looking forward to it, chaos dwarfs are now getting too boring and easy to win with.

Morax
09-05-2013, 20:26
haha! your on! i like big hordes of 60 infantry, i can delay them with my great eagles and then pick up easy points on everything else. and as for the chickens, i always take 3-4 eagle claws and 2 sky cutters, i'll happily take those points too!

the new level 6 high magic spell (forgot what it's called now) is border line too good versus hordes of infantry. plus, combining walk between worlds and banner of the world dragon and you got an invinsible unit. it begs taking an archmage.

once i get my all my models i'm going to start playtesting HE MSU armies in earnest. i'm really looking forward to it, chaos dwarfs are now getting too boring and easy to win with.

Great, hand me the points for your eagles, I'll gladly take them. Easy points on everything else? I'm sorry, were you thinking I took easy to get points? The other 2 60 man hordes will need to be slowed down as well or were you planing on letting them run free? As to the Chickens, were you planning on shooting them for a turn and expecting results? You shoot with 6, hit with 4, wound with 3, means 2 dead chickens. The other 6 are still going to roll over everything infront of them.

Sure I need to worry about the big firey doom level 6 spell, what level 6 spell doesn't need to be worried about. Walk between worlds only lasts for your magic phase so go ahead and move that small unit you are taking, I'll kill the rest and ignore that one.

All in all, yeah, I'll take that easy win as nothing you've presented makes a credible threat to hordes. Even less so with so many flying chariots and bolt throwers.

Fighting Newfoundlander
09-05-2013, 21:35
Yeah, I've got to say High Elves msu sounds easy for Dwarves too. Much harder on Orcs though. Any army that can produce decent sustained shooting, even bs shooting will prove problematic I would think. I know my two 35 dwarf hords w/ x-bow and GW would have fun. And Organ guns. And then there's few left to deal with the blocks. my 2 cents. Don't play HE. And I do think it's a pain for an advancing army, Orcs moreso than WoC.

a18no
09-05-2013, 22:53
In a word... yes

i played a kinda MSU army with lots of sisters of averlorn and archers and i spent the game pouring BS5 Str 4 goodness into the hordes... they died pretty quick and never even got into combat with them. add in 2 sky cutters and a few eagle claws and your golden

That is not a MSU style of play, but only a guerilla with lots of shooting. Nothing to do with many small unit that combo charge. You could have played one big block of shooter and you would have achieved the same result.

Dr Rockso
10-05-2013, 04:17
Great, hand me the points for your eagles, I'll gladly take them. Easy points on everything else? I'm sorry, were you thinking I took easy to get points? The other 2 60 man hordes will need to be slowed down as well or were you planing on letting them run free? As to the Chickens, were you planning on shooting them for a turn and expecting results? You shoot with 6, hit with 4, wound with 3, means 2 dead chickens. The other 6 are still going to roll over everything infront of them.

Sure I need to worry about the big firey doom level 6 spell, what level 6 spell doesn't need to be worried about. Walk between worlds only lasts for your magic phase so go ahead and move that small unit you are taking, I'll kill the rest and ignore that one.

All in all, yeah, I'll take that easy win as nothing you've presented makes a credible threat to hordes. Even less so with so many flying chariots and bolt throwers.

Out of interest, where is your list. I just want to see what else you have outside of 3 60 man units and 8 demigryphs, can't imagine much else.

Sorry to de-rail. MSU is possible, but I think MMU is the best option for HE, no massive units, but nothing too easy to wreck their combat efficiency after a couple deaths.

Why
10-05-2013, 06:15
Great, hand me the points for your eagles, I'll gladly take them. Easy points on everything else? I'm sorry, were you thinking I took easy to get points? The other 2 60 man hordes will need to be slowed down as well or were you planing on letting them run free? As to the Chickens, were you planning on shooting them for a turn and expecting results? You shoot with 6, hit with 4, wound with 3, means 2 dead chickens. The other 6 are still going to roll over everything infront of them.

Sure I need to worry about the big firey doom level 6 spell, what level 6 spell doesn't need to be worried about. Walk between worlds only lasts for your magic phase so go ahead and move that small unit you are taking, I'll kill the rest and ignore that one.

All in all, yeah, I'll take that easy win as nothing you've presented makes a credible threat to hordes. Even less so with so many flying chariots and bolt throwers.

So your army consists of 3 60 man hordes some demigryphs and a few war machines? That's like the best matchup for MSU, how many points in each horde?
Probably close to 600 points. No way you they earn that back in a single game against a well played MSU army, especially flying MSU. You can eat your fill of 50-100 point units, because you won't earn back 600 points for each of those hordes. Even if you do kill 8 units in a game with one of those hordes you still won't have got back your points. Then your smaller units, EG. chickens and warmachines can get munched by some flying characters and shooting.

After that 2-3 white lion units all tearing into one of your hordes from a flank after that one horde has lost 30% of it's models, easy win for msu.


Not saying that playing your way is bad, it can certainly work and it's good fun watching squares grind each other down over several turns. It's just that a properly played MSU army would love to see an army of 60 man hordes across the table. Much more so than an army of hordes would like to wade through 50 point units all game.

MSU takes finesse to pull of and you have to learn how to play like a wood elf general. But if you are a talented general it can work very well.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-05-2013, 06:20
what are your thoughts? are the new HE the MSU generals dream come true? i'm thinking yes

I'm thinking no. It would have been a dream come true if had it not been easily possible before. Having said this, it seems it is even easier this time around.


speaking of alternate unit sizes and formations.... Anyone else notice that high elf cavalry can now be quite effective in a 3x3 formation?

How so? You only get 3 attacks.


Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news but in unrestricted 8th edidtion hordes are king and msu just cant compete

That's a particularly odd sentiment. What do you base this on?



I'm sorry, were you thinking I took easy to get points?


A plausible assumption when you say you do.



Probably close to 600 points.


More like 300 (plus characters).

cptcosmic
10-05-2013, 09:15
MSU has always been a quick and painless massacre for my all comers Empire list. It yields victory points hand over fist and claims next to none from me. Quicker? Maybe, but still ineffective. I don't care how many combo charges you set up, my 60 man horde rolls over 2 units a turn, the Demigyphs eat every thing they touch and warmachines keep my lanes hyper clear as there aren't enough threats on the table. So please please please make the effort to bring MSU back to the fore-front. I can always use more easy tournament wins.
one spell and your 60man unit is down to 30 and then a small unit of swordmasters wipes it from the table. if you dispel the big spell, doesnt matter, your horde unit reform & movement will be blocked by eagles or reavers, then the swordmasters just run into your flank and wipe it from the table (or even better walk between worlds into your flank) and there is nothing that you can do against it with your 2-3 hordes because I just pick the outermost unit on the table and your other units are unwieldy and cannot move around fast enough to prevent it.

in short, your strategy sounds good... against a new player.



How so? You only get 3 attacks.

3x3 will actually pull out 9 attacks & have a small frontage. would work great for combo charges.

Asuryan's Spear
10-05-2013, 09:37
MSU has always been a quick and painless massacre for my all comers Empire list. It yields victory points hand over fist and claims next to none from me. Quicker? Maybe, but still ineffective. I don't care how many combo charges you set up, my 60 man horde rolls over 2 units a turn, the Demigyphs eat every thing they touch and warmachines keep my lanes hyper clear as there aren't enough threats on the table. So please please please make the effort to bring MSU back to the fore-front. I can always use more easy tournament wins.

2 units a turn? Your relying on some fairly inept opponents if your thinking of getting your horde into combat for two turns...MSU will run rings around you and then pick off the rest...hordes are big clumsy and quite frankly require very little finesse...come up against a really good player and you'll get cut down to size if your death staring

Morax
10-05-2013, 12:08
So your army consists of 3 60 man hordes some demigryphs and a few war machines? That's like the best matchup for MSU, how many points in each horde?
Probably close to 600 points. No way you they earn that back in a single game against a well played MSU army, especially flying MSU. You can eat your fill of 50-100 point units, because you won't earn back 600 points for each of those hordes. Even if you do kill 8 units in a game with one of those hordes you still won't have got back your points. Then your smaller units, EG. chickens and warmachines can get munched by some flying characters and shooting.

After that 2-3 white lion units all tearing into one of your hordes from a flank after that one horde has lost 30% of it's models, easy win for msu.


Not saying that playing your way is bad, it can certainly work and it's good fun watching squares grind each other down over several turns. It's just that a properly played MSU army would love to see an army of 60 man hordes across the table. Much more so than an army of hordes would like to wade through 50 point units all game.

MSU takes finesse to pull of and you have to learn how to play like a wood elf general. But if you are a talented general it can work very well.

So yeah, closer to 300 as was pointed out. My units don't need to get back the points that I spent on them, I just have to out pace your claiming of victory points. Easy to do as you won't be getting many from me. 2-3 units of white lions in the flank, 24 attacks, with 16 hits, 13 wounds, look at that I'm steadfast on a rerollable 9. Combat reform on that same rerollable 9 and suddenly the White Lions all die. Easy 351 points for me. Wait that 300 point horde just earned it's points back.... Thought you said that woundn't happen. More importantly, I've claimed 351 victory points, you've claimed none. Looks like a massacre to me.

Smaller units? I woundn't call 24 1+ save wounds small by your count or easy to claim. Particularly when it's faster than the bulk of your units. The only thing you've suggested to take that has a better charge range would be your flying chariots. So two chariots, average of 7 impact hits, 5 wounds, 1 after saves, then strength 4 high elf attacks are suppose to do the other 23 wounds???

Who said I take easy to claim warmachines??? Even if I did, you have all of your faster movement units stalling my hordes or so you claim, what's going to go kill them?

I'm sorry, but MSU just doesn't stand a chance in 8th.

Morax
10-05-2013, 12:42
edit double post

Drashe
10-05-2013, 12:44
That's a particularly odd sentiment. What do you base this on?

Im basing this on my personal experiance as a former store manager and personal experience LSP. When some one shows up with three hordes or more and no Trash/chaff its a games based on pionts and you need to kill my entire horde to gain a single point. Where all I have to do is kill one of your chaff/trash drops that will be used to slow/harass my horde maybe two to gain the 100 vp I need to win. When 8th edition first came into my store we had quite a few competent msu tournement players they were like fine tuned killing machines and I watched all of them struggle over hundreds of games loosing to less expirienced players who I coached to play the new style of 8th primarily hordes. These msu players just couldnt kill enough as they usally rellied on a failed leaderships to take out hordes and with all the bsb stubborn/steadfast/banner of discipline units that doesnt happen often.


one spell and your 60man unit is down to 30 and then a small unit of swordmasters wipes it from the table. if you dispel the big spell, doesnt matter, your horde unit reform & movement will be blocked by eagles or reavers, then the swordmasters just run into your flank and wipe it from the table (or even better walk between worlds into your flank) and there is nothing that you can do against it with your 2-3 hordes because I just pick the outermost unit on the table and your other units are unwieldy and cannot move around fast enough to prevent it.
in short, your strategy sounds good... against a new player.

3x3 will actually pull out 9 attacks & have a small frontage. would work great for combo charges.

Assuming you can cast your spell as you no longer have Teclis or the book o heoth to irrisitable so you are now subjest to dispels and scrolls so good luck with that before those hordes get in to combat of some kind and then are untargetable by your spells. As for killing the rest there is nop rest I've been saying for some time now that chaff/trash drops are near useless. There are a few exceptios to this of course.


2 units a turn? Your relying on some fairly inept opponents if your thinking of getting your horde into combat for two turns...MSU will run rings around you and then pick off the rest...hordes are big clumsy and quite frankly require very little finesse...come up against a really good player and you'll get cut down to size if your death staring

I think morax was over zelous in two units a turn but his point is valad. He is going to kill some of your units which would get him the 100 vp he need to win. Hordes can be clumsy yes, however when you field 4 of them they have no flanks as another horde is protecting them and the board edge is protecting the others. No msu won't run rings as there is no room to go around the hordes. you are right hordes require no finesse but finesse isnt required to win in 8th if you really want to win with msu and finesse I suggest you play 7th ed.

Glabro
10-05-2013, 12:47
I can always use more easy tournament wins.

And people ask why I don't like the tournament format any more.

Baluc
10-05-2013, 12:54
Im basing this on my personal experiance as a former store manager and personal experience LSP. When some one shows up with three hordes or more and no Trash/chaff its a games based on pionts and you need to kill my entire horde to gain a single point. Where all I have to do is kill one of your chaff/trash drops that will be used to slow/harass my horde maybe two to gain the 100 vp I need to win. When 8th edition first came into my store we had quite a few competent msu tournement players they were like fine tuned killing machines and I watched all of them struggle over hundreds of games loosing to less expirienced players who I coached to play the new style of 8th primarily hordes. These msu players just couldnt kill enough as they usally rellied on a failed leaderships to take out hordes and with all the bsb stubborn/steadfast/banner of discipline units that doesnt happen often.



Assuming you can cast your spell as you no longer have Teclis or the book o heoth to irrisitable so you are now subjest to dispels and scrolls so good luck with that before those hordes get in to combat of some kind and then are untargetable by your spells. As for killing the rest there is nop rest I've been saying for some time now that chaff/trash drops are near useless. There are a few exceptios to this of course.



I think morax was over zelous in two units a turn but his point is valad. He is going to kill some of your units which would get him the 100 vp he need to win. Hordes can be clumsy yes, however when you field 4 of them they have no flanks as another horde is protecting them and the board edge is protecting the others. No msu won't run rings as there is no room to go around the hordes. you are right hordes require no finesse but finesse isnt required to win in 8th if you really want to win with msu and finesse I suggest you play 7th ed.

I feel like you just been watching bottom table smashfests. I love fighting 3 horde armies, so easy to read and out deploy. The game provides tool upon tool for taking these kind of armies apart, from the simple dwellers below or the double flee, to the more subtle no steadfast and disrupted in forests.

shortlegs
10-05-2013, 12:59
I was a disbeliever of MSU once, believing that hordes is king in 8th. But I've learnt it the hard way that they can work.

Not all armies can be played as MSU. It takes more attention to detail and the rules to play. And the need to sacrifice diverters and units for this style of play sometimes means that even if you win, it is difficult to get a big win. But if played properly, they really do work.

There are many factors that decide the outcome of a hordes vs MSU matchup, and contrary to what everyone from both camps are saying, it is not a walkover for either side. But does a properly played MSU list give the hordes list a run for its money? Definitely yes. Dismiss them at your peril.

cptcosmic
10-05-2013, 13:39
Assuming you can cast your spell as you no longer have Teclis or the book o heoth to irrisitable so you are now subjest to dispels and scrolls so good luck with that before those hordes get in to combat of some kind and then are untargetable by your spells. As for killing the rest there is nop rest I've been saying for some time now that chaff/trash drops are near useless. There are a few exceptios to this of course.

sorry this is not how it works, read the BRB, the other player can act too.

and there is not need to get one spell through, you can ban one important spell at max, then walk between worlds kicks in and you are in a world of troubles. your horde units cant easily move around and adapt to the fact that you suddenly have units in the front and the flank.

I would really like to see how you get into combat, when your 60 man unit is wiped from the flank, movement blocked from the front and the other horde units are too big to move around... your post indicates that you dont even play warhammer and are just theorycrafting.


white lions in the flank
good luck on getting rid of stubborn on rr ld9/10. oh and reforms can be blocked by charging with somethign into the front or just simply placing a unit close to it thus you have NO SPACE for a reform. you will at max get 5 models of contact.

thrawn
10-05-2013, 13:55
So yeah, closer to 300 as was pointed out. My units don't need to get back the points that I spent on them, I just have to out pace your claiming of victory points. Easy to do as you won't be getting many from me. 2-3 units of white lions in the flank, 24 attacks, with 16 hits, 13 wounds, look at that I'm steadfast on a rerollable 9. Combat reform on that same rerollable 9 and suddenly the White Lions all die. Easy 351 points for me. Wait that 300 point horde just earned it's points back.... Thought you said that woundn't happen. More importantly, I've claimed 351 victory points, you've claimed none. Looks like a massacre to me.

Smaller units? I woundn't call 24 1+ save wounds small by your count or easy to claim. Particularly when it's faster than the bulk of your units. The only thing you've suggested to take that has a better charge range would be your flying chariots. So two chariots, average of 7 impact hits, 5 wounds, 1 after saves, then strength 4 high elf attacks are suppose to do the other 23 wounds???

Who said I take easy to claim warmachines??? Even if I did, you have all of your faster movement units stalling my hordes or so you claim, what's going to go kill them?

I'm sorry, but MSU just doesn't stand a chance in 8th.

firstly 60 halberdiers are not 300 points, closer to 400 with command (they're 6 points each right? i used to have the book, now i can't remember). so the army your listing, 3 hordes of 60 halbediers with 8 chickens? your already at almost 1700 points and you have no characters or warmachines yet, so i'm not sure how you're planning on dealing with an MSU army as you have no mobility, just massive hordes of infantry that are hoping your opponent is an idiot and will charge his smaller units alone into you hordes so you can wipe them out one by one and win. i've been playing since 4th edition, the moment you under estimate your opponent (regardless of the edition) you're one step closer to losing the game.

anywho, it's a very bold statement to say MSU is not effective in 8th edition. MSU can be effective, but it's not easy. it is of course easier to take 2-3 hordes and grind it out, but that's also not as fun. the thread states, with the new High Elves is MSU finally an option?

therefore i am acknowlegding that MSU is a challenge in 8th, thus the title.

Asuryan's Spear
10-05-2013, 14:14
Against said list I would play 2 flamespyre(sorry about spelling) Pheonixs a ton of archers, high Mage, bolt throwers and a single unit of dragon princes(12)...

Archers pepper hordes as they approach use the Mage to do one of the Pheonixes fire trail thing over I horde as that'll be six ranks worth on the first pass...will seriously cut down those Halberdiers then charge with the dps .The bolt throwers take care of the chickens and hey presto you have a flank and the VPs for one of the hordes and a flank to work with

No this isn't a specialised list it is the MSU I play atm

Morax
10-05-2013, 14:38
sorry this is not how it works, read the BRB, the other player can act too.

and there is not need to get one spell through, you can ban one important spell at max, then walk between worlds kicks in and you are in a world of troubles. your horde units cant easily move around and adapt to the fact that you suddenly have units in the front and the flank.

I would really like to see how you get into combat, when your 60 man unit is wiped from the flank, movement blocked from the front and the other horde units are too big to move around... your post indicates that you dont even play warhammer and are just theorycrafting.

good luck on getting rid of stubborn on rr ld9/10. oh and reforms can be blocked by charging with somethign into the front or just simply placing a unit close to it thus you have NO SPACE for a reform. you will at max get 5 models of contact.

Read you faq's, the center of the unit no longer need to remain in the same place when reforming. As long as I don't take models out of combat, I can reform as I please. You'd need to have models on all sides to make that work, and I just won't leave that as an option for you. As far as getting rid of leadership 10 stubborn, I don't care that you are leadership 10 stubborn, I care that you are toughness 3 with crap saves and 10 models. I don't need to break you, I will settle for killing you.

I get your walk between worlds, but with MSU, I don't care what you put in my back field, I'll kill that when it charges me too or my support units will make short work of them.


firstly 60 halberdiers are not 300 points, closer to 400 with command (they're 6 points each right? i used to have the book, now i can't remember). so the army your listing, 3 hordes of 60 halbediers with 8 chickens? your already at almost 1700 points and you have no characters or warmachines yet, so i'm not sure how you're planning on dealing with an MSU army as you have no mobility, just massive hordes of infantry that are hoping your opponent is an idiot and will charge his smaller units alone into you hordes so you can wipe them out one by one and win. i've been playing since 4th edition, the moment you under estimate your opponent (regardless of the edition) you're one step closer to losing the game.

anywho, it's a very bold statement to say MSU is not effective in 8th edition. MSU can be effective, but it's not easy. it is of course easier to take 2-3 hordes and grind it out, but that's also not as fun. the thread states, with the new High Elves is MSU finally an option?

therefore i am acknowlegding that MSU is a challenge in 8th, thus the title.

You are right, it's 360 for the horde (still closer to 300 than 600), I think we have a bit of a disconnect here as I play at 2500 and it seems like you play closer to 2000. Bringing my list more in line with what you'd expect to be playing at it'd be 2 hordes of 50 Halberdiers and 2 units of 6 demi's. Still leaves me plenty to take support units.

No I don't expect him to feed me units one at a time. I expect him to feed me 4 at a time and I'll still gobble them up. While I agree underestimating your opponent can be a grave mistake, by your rational, my opponent is underestimating me. MSU has glaring flaws in 8th edition that can be easily exploited by someone who knows how. Dealing with 4 units at once is a simple matter of application of force.

While yes it is a bold statement, that doesn't make it wrong. Sure it's more fun to run around with more units. The question wasn't what is more fun, the question was what was effective. When it comes to effective, MSU fails.

Can it be effective at all? Sure it can, if your opponent lets it. Just like an all monster list can work if your opponent lets it, but that doesn't make it a good, effective list.

I'll acknowlege that MSU can be very fun to play, but it is not competitive.

mostlyharmless
10-05-2013, 15:53
My Daemon Prince of Slaanesh loves the idea of MSU. When he pulls his guitar out of hammer space and plays an 'a' minor chord, the more small units are around, the more damage he can do.

sulla
10-05-2013, 15:54
MSU has always been feasible with high elves.

I'm not sure it's any more feasible now though, although blocks of archers can be deployed even narrower due to getting that 3rd rank available to shoot.
So you can take a unit of 12 of them and deploy in a 4x3 formation, rather than the previous 6x2 formation to all shoot.

Losing out on re-rolls to hit with Swordmasters and White lions certainly hurts the MSU playstyle.
Although it does depend on exactly how small a unit you want to use, blocks of 20 as small units work fine, especially so due to the general points drop across the board they got.
Moving towards the 10 man size becomes less beneficial.MSU combat infantry, as you say, becomes less powerful, but MSU avoidance/shooting is improved. 15s of archers/LSG gain shooting power, flame phoenix and flying bolt throwers hurt the enemy without engaging in combat and big core blocks are no longer neccessary due to core reavers and silver helms. If I were to build an MSU HE army, I think I'd leave all the infantry out of the list except possibly a couple of LSG units or a bodyguard of phoenix guard for an archmage. The new list allows you to play that 'death of a thousand cuts' style quite well with the new big units, I think. Loremaster is potentially quite useful too with all his magic missiles.

AkodoGilador
10-05-2013, 16:06
Loremaster is potentially quite useful too with all his magic missiles.
You can stick him in the Shadow Armour, right? Deploy him as a scout protected by a unit of Shadow Warriors...

Alex

Von Wibble
10-05-2013, 19:43
Why does that help? Its not like he lacks range, shadow warriors are the worst choice in the book, and you are asking for him to be killed quickly by shooting.

Drashe
10-05-2013, 20:21
MSU combat infantry, as you say, becomes less powerful, but MSU avoidance/shooting is improved. 15s of archers/LSG gain shooting power, flame phoenix and flying bolt throwers hurt the enemy without engaging in combat and big core blocks are no longer neccessary due to core reavers and silver helms.

I dont agree that MSU shooting has gotten any better. 15 archer shots a turn aren't any better the 10 archer shots per turn for the points. On average 15 archers shooting at a t3 horde you will get 18 unsaved wounds a game. Shooting at t4 hordes you get about 8 unsaved wounds. Being that the average t3 horde has 60 models or more and t4 hordes have 50+ wounds you are unlikly to kill either. That being said againts most hordes you cant kill enough models in a game to earn enoigh points to win.

I fail to see how MSU avoidance has improved please elaborate.

sulla
11-05-2013, 13:01
I dont agree that MSU shooting has gotten any better. 15 archer shots a turn aren't any better the 10 archer shots per turn for the points. On average 15 archers shooting at a t3 horde you will get 18 unsaved wounds a game. Shooting at t4 hordes you get about 8 unsaved wounds. Being that the average t3 horde has 60 models or more and t4 hordes have 50+ wounds you are unlikly to kill either. That being said againts most hordes you cant kill enough models in a game to earn enoigh points to win.

I fail to see how MSU avoidance has improved please elaborate.15's of archers are improved in that they take less frontage now than the same amount of shooting in the previous book. 2 15's are better now than 3 10's. As for shooting, a block of infantry is the last thing you should be shooting at unless your archers are magically buffed. Even t6 monsters net you a better reward. The whole point of avoidance armies is that you don't deal with the horde at all (the clue is in the name).

As to how the army has improved at avoidance, you have to look at the new elements.

1)Core cav and fast cav; The hardest thing about playing avoidance before was protecting the core infantry (which couldn't fight and wasn't fast enough to outmanouver enemy infantry with 8th ed charges). Now you can ditch it entirely in favour of fast cav or disposable silver helm units.

2)Phoenix; either frosties to combo charge or better still, flames to hit the enemy outside of combat. These are the ultimate frustration tool, being able to pick targets and more importantly, being able to do damage outside of combat.

3)Sky cutters with bolt throwers. Another versatile unit that can hit at range but also manoeuvre.

These 3 elements; core cav, ranged monsters and mobile shooting let the HE play avoidance where previously, the strength of the list was solidly concentrated in magic and elite infantry. The army is now far better set up to kill chaff and monsters while dancing around cumbersome hordes. Basically, it can play like elves should... (or you can just deathstar like before...)

thrawn
11-05-2013, 17:28
@ sulla, I agree that 2 units of 15 archers is better then 3 units of 10 now with being able to shoot in 3 ranks.

@ morax, I've been doing some math hammer and it seems like your probably right, it will definitely be a struggle using MSU. i'm going to give it a shoot anyways though, but I think regardless i'll always be taking a unit of 30 sword masters just cause i'll need the ranks to break his steadfast.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-05-2013, 05:05
2 units a turn? Your relying on some fairly inept opponents if your thinking of getting your horde into combat for two turns...MSU will run rings around you and then pick off the rest...hordes are big clumsy and quite frankly require very little finesse...come up against a really good player and you'll get cut down to size if your death staring

He plays Empire, so no DS. However, a horde needs a lot of finesse. It's easily outmaneouvered by even a mediocre player.



I'm sorry, but MSU just doesn't stand a chance in 8th.


MSU is quite a lot stronger than those hordes in 8th.


Im basing this on my personal experiance as a former store manager and personal experience LSP. When some one shows up with three hordes or more and no Trash/chaff its a games based on pionts and you need to kill my entire horde to gain a single point.


With no chaff and auto-losing the chaff game, I don't see the problem. Two thirds of that army are not going to see any combat or play a role in the game because they'll run after 20 or 35 points kitties or archers and then get in the way of each other. It's even easier with the odd Miasma or Windblast. If that requires too much finesse, stall one with a STank or Slaves, and let's see how the other three (more and more, where do all these hordes come from?) get around it in which time, and that's before terrain gets in the way.

In the meanwhile, the third horde is just - yes, just - killed by concentration of force: Magic, shooting, combat on multiple flanks. If there are characters in the horde I fight and I manage to kill even one, Sabretusks or archers or Great Eagles or Spirit Hosts simply don't cost enough to give you an easy win.

Having more units also gives me an advantage in deployment.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-05-2013, 05:17
I don't care


I admit I am a bit surprised to find you so...dogmatic. Just a single exploded warmachine costs more than 3 units of my chaff. Are you telling me you're also taking Engineers for each and everyone in addition to four hordes (claim above), Demis, FC on everything and at least three more support characters that are so well protected as to be unkillable? Because otherwise I'll just dispatch a character and get ahead again. I'd also like to see how you reform with Frosty the Phoenix in the front and Elites in the flank.



I expect him to feed me 4 at a time and I'll still gobble them up.


Wow. Rubbish like this is usually enough for my ignore list.

shortlegs
12-05-2013, 13:50
Wow.. This "debate" is still going on?

It's one guy adamantly refusing to admit MSU can work, and several others equally adamant at forcing him to see things their way.

He doesnt't believe it, let it be. One day when he comes across a competent MSU player and gets his behind kicked, then he may start to believe. Otherwise all this theory basing and flashing of e-peens from both sides isn't going to change anyone's mind.

Sh4d0w
12-05-2013, 14:29
He plays Empire, so no DS. However, a horde needs a lot of finesse. It's easily outmaneouvered by even a mediocre player.



MSU is quite a lot stronger than those hordes in 8th.



With no chaff and auto-losing the chaff game, I don't see the problem. Two thirds of that army are not going to see any combat or play a role in the game because they'll run after 20 or 35 points kitties or archers and then get in the way of each other. It's even easier with the odd Miasma or Windblast. If that requires too much finesse, stall one with a STank or Slaves, and let's see how the other three (more and more, where do all these hordes come from?) get around it in which time, and that's before terrain gets in the way.

In the meanwhile, the third horde is just - yes, just - killed by concentration of force: Magic, shooting, combat on multiple flanks. If there are characters in the horde I fight and I manage to kill even one, Sabretusks or archers or Great Eagles or Spirit Hosts simply don't cost enough to give you an easy win.

Having more units also gives me an advantage in deployment.

While I do agree with you that having a horde does not equate to an auto win when your opponent is MSU i dont really think you can just split it by saying MSU is stronger. If i had a vote it would be for a balance.

thrawn
12-05-2013, 14:36
Wow.. This "debate" is still going on?

It's one guy adamantly refusing to admit MSU can work, and several others equally adamant at forcing him to see things their way.

He doesnt't believe it, let it be. One day when he comes across a competent MSU player and gets his behind kicked, then he may start to believe. Otherwise all this theory basing and flashing of e-peens from both sides isn't going to change anyone's mind.

ya but we got nothing else to do, that's why we're here, theory-hamming! :)

Nubl0
12-05-2013, 16:32
Personally I feel that the new WoC do MSU better than High Elves. Also on hordes dominating 8th, dunno what game you guys are playing because where I play if you just drop down 3 hordes you will probably lose. Chaff is very important and being a horde just makes you a juicy target for the big 6 spells and really easy to outmaneuver. I think people may be getting them mixed up with certain deathstar builds which can be very hard to deal with, with CERTAIN army books such as Wood Elves, Tomb kings.

sulla
12-05-2013, 20:28
Personally I feel that the new WoC do MSU better than High Elves. Also on hordes dominating 8th, dunno what game you guys are playing because where I play if you just drop down 3 hordes you will probably lose. Chaff is very important and being a horde just makes you a juicy target for the big 6 spells and really easy to outmaneuver. I think people may be getting them mixed up with certain deathstar builds which can be very hard to deal with, with CERTAIN army books such as Wood Elves, Tomb kings.
They do combat MSU better. DPs, Chariots and to a lesser extent chimerae>elven combat troops.

But reaver cav/silver helms>dogs and once the dogs are gone, you are up in vps and can pick and choose your own fights. Massed bolt thrower fire > a daemon prince. Not an easy matchup by any means, but I think HE and WoC MSU are different style, but not neccessarily different power level.

Frankly
13-05-2013, 07:11
MSU combat infantry, as you say, becomes less powerful, but MSU avoidance/shooting is improved...

This.

Msu armylist wide, is imho alittle silly, small blocks of HE combat troops will get eaten in combat. I can't see any turn and reason to run MSU WLs, PG, SH. But avoidance works really well. MSU has generally been about avoidance and not giving away huge stacks of points anyhow. Now more than ever, HE certainly have the tools to have a strong MSU support system in their lists and/or certain armylist types.


They do combat MSU better. DPs, Chariots and to a lesser extent chimerae>elven combat troops.

But reaver cav/silver helms>dogs and once the dogs are gone, you are up in vps and can pick and choose your own fights. Massed bolt thrower fire > a daemon prince. Not an easy matchup by any means, but I think HE and WoC MSU are different style, but not neccessarily different power level.

I played 6 games in the weekend with HE, two verse WoC no DP though. Its an interesting match up chaff/MSU wise, WoC MSU drops really well, while HE counters chaff really well. It was a fun match up with lots of dogs and chariots against lots of shooting and mobility.

cptcosmic
13-05-2013, 10:32
Read you faq's, the center of the unit no longer need to remain in the same place when reforming. As long as I don't take models out of combat, I can reform as I please. You'd need to have models on all sides to make that work, and I just won't leave that as an option for you.


first, you cant reform immediately, you would first get those 21 attacks from a medium sized swordmaster unit in the flank. I only need 1 eagle and one reaver unit, one on each side, to prevent you from reforming to maximize attacks (or you can simply charge something into the front e.g. 2+ AS Silverhelms which are core now, or a frost phoenix). sure you can reform but by blocking the space you can only get 6 models (cause you are 6 deep) in contact and you dont get enough space for a horde formation. by reforming you also open your flank to the rest of the army, which isnt a good idea anyway. one third of your damage is gone, while the 15 swordmasters are hitting you with 21 attacks back, you can now reform to get 5 more attacks and most likely receive another charge into your new flank or you dont reform the unit is taken out of the game granting you no WP.

this is obviously all theorycraft but the HE player can actually easily pull this off cause he is running MSU

AkodoGilador
13-05-2013, 11:06
... while the 15 swordmasters are hitting you with 21 attacks back...

this is obviously all theorycraft but the HE player can actually easily pull this off cause he is running MSU
15 strong units isn't really MSU, though. Classic MSU is units of 10 or fewer models, ideally 5.

Alex

Tau_player001
13-05-2013, 12:02
15 strong units isn't really MSU, though. Classic MSU is units of 10 or fewer models, ideally 5.

Alex

MSU stands for minimum sized units yep. If anything HE benefit less from MSU units purely speaking, but the avoidance list still stands.

Morax
13-05-2013, 12:44
I admit I am a bit surprised to find you so...dogmatic. Just a single exploded warmachine costs more than 3 units of my chaff. Are you telling me you're also taking Engineers for each and everyone in addition to four hordes (claim above), Demis, FC on everything and at least three more support characters that are so well protected as to be unkillable? Because otherwise I'll just dispatch a character and get ahead again. I'd also like to see how you reform with Frosty the Phoenix in the front and Elites in the flank.

Wow. Rubbish like this is usually enough for my ignore list.

Sorry LSP, some topics just get my blood boiling. Comp and MSU are turning into the Religion and Politics of Warhammer forums, the topics you avoid in polite company. I'll admit that I've been pretty bull-headed and beligerant in this thread and I should probably tone that down.

Warmachines that are not Steam Tanks have quickly vanished from most of my empire lists as being quickly surrendered victory points. So no engineers, no easy to claim warmachines. The only free floating character that I'd leave out of some unit in a game like this (all the others I'd easily place in units to protect them from such dedicated shooting) would be an Arch Lector on War Alter. A common staple of empire lists and by no means easy to kill with all the magical protection that is thrown his way. I'd also, against a list like this, put him behind the Demigryphs to gain hard cover against all those bolt thrower shots.

As to Frosty the Pheonix, I'd have to take a longer look at his rules. I'm sure you are accurate in him being a threat to locking units in the formation they start in. I'd need to take a look at his surviveability to see if he needs to be prioritized for removal. As I understand it, his only protection is a ward save and a decent toughness. Banishment would there for be tailor made to remove such a threat.


ya but we got nothing else to do, that's why we're here, theory-hamming! :)

Well said, what else whould I do at work.... Not like I have work to do...


Msu armylist wide, is imho alittle silly, small blocks of HE combat troops will get eaten in combat. I can't see any turn and reason to run MSU WLs, PG, SH. But avoidance works really well. MSU has generally been about avoidance and not giving away huge stacks of points anyhow. Now more than ever, HE certainly have the tools to have a strong MSU support system in their lists and/or certain armylist types.

I played 6 games in the weekend with HE, two verse WoC no DP though. Its an interesting match up chaff/MSU wise, WoC MSU drops really well, while HE counters chaff really well. It was a fun match up with lots of dogs and chariots against lots of shooting and mobility.

It's been my experience that avoidance doesn't last forever in a game, no matter how nimble your army is, if your opponant is actively trying to deny you. While I agree that avoidance has been emproved with the new High Elf army book, I still feel that it is insufficient to mak MSU work well within the rule set of 8th.


first, you cant reform immediately, you would first get those 21 attacks from a medium sized swordmaster unit in the flank. I only need 1 eagle and one reaver unit, one on each side, to prevent you from reforming to maximize attacks (or you can simply charge something into the front e.g. 2+ AS Silverhelms which are core now, or a frost phoenix). sure you can reform but by blocking the space you can only get 6 models (cause you are 6 deep) in contact and you dont get enough space for a horde formation. by reforming you also open your flank to the rest of the army, which isnt a good idea anyway. one third of your damage is gone, while the 15 swordmasters are hitting you with 21 attacks back, you can now reform to get 5 more attacks and most likely receive another charge into your new flank or you dont reform the unit is taken out of the game granting you no WP.

this is obviously all theorycraft but the HE player can actually easily pull this off cause he is running MSU


15 strong units isn't really MSU, though. Classic MSU is units of 10 or fewer models, ideally 5.

Alex

First, so now we are talking about medium sized unit and not MSU? As has already been pointed out, MSU is used to describe units of 10 models or less as the largest units in the list to keep from any large amounts of points being concentrated in a single point. But assuming you do take medium sized units in your MSU list, you will see that your unit count will be dropped considerably, making your avoidance and support harder to accomplish. Secondly, units of 200 point swordmasters then become prime targets for demigryphs and magic, points that you really can't afford to lose. As to the Silver Helms in the front, with no casting support, they last for 2 combat phases before you've handed the points for them over, not wise as a unit of 5 costs you more than the requisit 100 to win a game. The frost pheonix may be harder to kill but costs more and will likely be exclusively targeted by my magic to remove them from the equation, by no ways a sure thing but neither is them being right where you need them when you need them.

As to getting a unit on all 4 sides of a horde, what do you imagine the rest of my list is doing? Protecting the flanks of the other units to help me stop you from surrounding me of course. Not easy to do but if you know how it is quite achievable, even against MSU.

I think the part that riles me the most is how you just assume the game is going to go exactly the way you'd like it to go. I'm sorry, but that just is never the case. In every game you need to adapt to unexpected changes, thats the whole point of playing the game. Sure I might not have expected you to bring MSU, but I know how to fight it (deny access to my flanks and pick off whole units at a time). I'm not sure the same could be said of you.

AkodoGilador
13-05-2013, 13:41
Heh, I'd always understood MSU as "Multiple small units", not "Minimum-size units".

Either way, though, 15 Swordmasters doesn't count :-) It's definitely in the "medium unit" category (for High Elves, anyway).

Alex

cptcosmic
13-05-2013, 14:18
First, so now we are talking about medium sized unit and not MSU? As has already been pointed out, MSU is used to describe units of 10 models or less as the largest units in the list to keep from any large amounts of points being concentrated in a single point. But assuming you do take medium sized units in your MSU list, you will see that your unit count will be dropped considerably, making your avoidance and support harder to accomplish. Secondly, units of 200 point swordmasters then become prime targets for demigryphs and magic, points that you really can't afford to lose. As to the Silver Helms in the front, with no casting support, they last for 2 combat phases before you've handed the points for them over, not wise as a unit of 5 costs you more than the requisit 100 to win a game. The frost pheonix may be harder to kill but costs more and will likely be exclusively targeted by my magic to remove them from the equation, by no ways a sure thing but neither is them being right where you need them when you need them.

As to getting a unit on all 4 sides of a horde, what do you imagine the rest of my list is doing? Protecting the flanks of the other units to help me stop you from surrounding me of course. Not easy to do but if you know how it is quite achievable, even against MSU.

I think the part that riles me the most is how you just assume the game is going to go exactly the way you'd like it to go. I'm sorry, but that just is never the case. In every game you need to adapt to unexpected changes, thats the whole point of playing the game. Sure I might not have expected you to bring MSU, but I know how to fight it (deny access to my flanks and pick off whole units at a time). I'm not sure the same could be said of you.

1. for me 5-15 is SMALL. 16-21 is medium, atleast in my "book". at 2500 I can field 5 units of that size with a lord, bsb, minimum core, one or two chariots, phoenix and 2 eagles.
2. I dont need units on all sides, I need one in the flank. I am at the front automatically because this is how warhammer works and the eagle can fly thus there is no issue to get behind.
3. I dont need to assume that everything works the way I would like it to be. all I need is 2 reaver units (they are core and cost almost nothing and are a default choice now) and 2 eagles (again cost nothing and are default choice of a regular HE player for ages). I can pick one of your horde units, focus on it, out deploy your army and your super duper 3 horde army with nothing else on the table has no way to force combats and gain WP. when I delay one horde unit, then it has no way to move around because it is too unwieldy, takes too much space and next to it is the next horde unit which also is too big, unwieldy and takes too much space. if you claim something else than you are a scrub or a terrible troll.

your 3x60 + chickens army on the other hand has nothing else on the table and the only real threat are the chickens.


MSU stands for minimum sized units yep. If anything HE benefit less from MSU units purely speaking, but the avoidance list still stands.
actually MSU means "many small units" :rolleyes:

Frankly
13-05-2013, 14:38
It's been my experience that avoidance doesn't last forever in a game, no matter how nimble your army is, if your opponant is actively trying to deny you. While I agree that avoidance has been emproved with the new High Elf army book, I still feel that it is insufficient to mak MSU work well within the rule set of 8th.


Just to let you know, the ponts I raised weren't in reference to your posts directly. In essense I agree with you.

Our experiences are different when it comes to avoidance and maybe because our ideas of what avoidance is differs aswell. Alot of reasonable players play atleast a strong chaff game for points denial and that'd be considered avoidance in our circles, if the chaff is MSU heavy then that'd be considered MSU avoidance and I've seen that win many tournaments in our area. I don't see avoidance as a direct 'no contact with the enemy' stratagy either as it was in 7th Ed for some armylist types. In 8th edition avoidance is about redirection, which will usually mean contact for control with some kind of msu unit and avoiding unwinnable combats with the bulk of your army/points.

I think shooty HE lists will be able to do this fine in 8th Edition. Either through running mobility type lists or heavy support lists or very shooty lists. I've been running a heavy ranged attack list with alot of msu support and it works fine.

WoC, DE, LM can all run MSU type lists and win games in my experience.

Morax
13-05-2013, 18:41
1. for me 5-15 is SMALL. 16-21 is medium, atleast in my "book". at 2500 I can field 5 units of that size with a lord, bsb, minimum core, one or two chariots, phoenix and 2 eagles.
2. I dont need units on all sides, I need one in the flank. I am at the front automatically because this is how warhammer works and the eagle can fly thus there is no issue to get behind.
3. I dont need to assume that everything works the way I would like it to be. all I need is 2 reaver units (they are core and cost almost nothing and are a default choice now) and 2 eagles (again cost nothing and are default choice of a regular HE player for ages). I can pick one of your horde units, focus on it, out deploy your army and your super duper 3 horde army with nothing else on the table has no way to force combats and gain WP. when I delay one horde unit, then it has no way to move around because it is too unwieldy, takes too much space and next to it is the next horde unit which also is too big, unwieldy and takes too much space. if you claim something else than you are a scrub or a terrible troll.

your 3x60 + chickens army on the other hand has nothing else on the table and the only real threat are the chickens.

actually MSU means "many small units" :rolleyes:

Thats right you need a unit in my front and my flank. Front of a horde, easy to do, flank of a horde, less so with a skilled opponent. Getting eagles behind units, sure it's possible, but what are you using to delay my hordes if your eagles are off behind my units? Reavers are hardly a "default" unit choice now. 180 points is hardly nothing, thats more than enough to win by, and in a standard tournament set up, that's also more than enough to earn me a massacre.

Claiming that Hordes are too unwieldly to move around nimbly just shows your ineptitude to do so, not mine. Clearly you have not had an opponent challenging enough to offer you a slew of nothing but bad options. Thats how that "super duper 3 horde army" works. Go right ahead and focus on one of the units, I want you to. I don't need to force combat, I don't need to "out deploy" you, I don't have bad match-ups so I don't care what you send my way. If you try to completely avoid combat, that's fine too, I can pin you in place with nothing but hordes and a careful placing of angles. The empire is even a bad example of it, try it with OnG or Skaven and it works even better. No where to run, no flanks to take, no easy to get VP. The last point is the dangerous one for MSU as you will be forced into combat if you are trying to win. And if you are playing in a tournament, you are going to need the win to place well.


Just to let you know, the ponts I raised weren't in reference to your posts directly. In essense I agree with you.

Our experiences are different when it comes to avoidance and maybe because our ideas of what avoidance is differs aswell. Alot of reasonable players play atleast a strong chaff game for points denial and that'd be considered avoidance in our circles, if the chaff is MSU heavy then that'd be considered MSU avoidance and I've seen that win many tournaments in our area. I don't see avoidance as a direct 'no contact with the enemy' stratagy either as it was in 7th Ed for some armylist types. In 8th edition avoidance is about redirection, which will usually mean contact for control with some kind of msu unit and avoiding unwinnable combats with the bulk of your army/points.

I think shooty HE lists will be able to do this fine in 8th Edition. Either through running mobility type lists or heavy support lists or very shooty lists. I've been running a heavy ranged attack list with alot of msu support and it works fine.

WoC, DE, LM can all run MSU type lists and win games in my experience.

Seems we also have a different take on what an "average" MSU list looks like, so we are just agreeing to....well agree. I've seen lists like you describe (multiple redirectors/speed bumps and medium to large sized units) preform well. As with you, it's not about No combat, just select combats. You still need a unit with enough punch to make that combat come out well, which the MSU I describe lacks, but yeah I see your point Frankly. I've just never seen a shooty list done in this style work in 8th as ballistic skill based shooting has taken a hard hit in 8th.

Frankly
13-05-2013, 21:45
I've just never seen a shooty list done in this style work in 8th as ballistic skill based shooting has taken a hard hit in 8th.

... and you're right. Even with SoAvelorn and S.Warriors being BS5, + hand of glory[on bs4 units(I love this spell)], the price drop in Eargle claws, and mobile bolt throwers, I don't think it'll every be top tier on their own, but still reasonably strong in some metas. A strong ranged attack list is still going to need a strong defensive combat core to win big scores or big games.

Tau_player001
13-05-2013, 21:59
actually MSU means "many small units" :rolleyes:

Correct me if i am wrong, but it comes from 40k age of MSU (and no, i am not talking about 5th, but further away), and it was minimum sized units because that's how the game because you were able to take weaponry with minimum sized units so that way you would achieve the maximum amount of firepower per slots. If not, you are just MSU haha (maybe someone gets this :d).

Morax, the problem with shooty list is that if anything goes wrong because of a mistake or something you didn't take into account, it goes wrong BIG, while hordes are way more forgiving for the most part. Anyways to each their own, but i think every player should try and learn how to play out an MSU shooty list on fantasy (and yes, a defensive core to babysit casters is out of question, come on guys), since it can give you a lot of insight in the game and be a better player overall with whatever you are playing later on.

Frankly
13-05-2013, 22:47
Morax, the problem with shooty list is that if anything goes wrong because of a mistake or something you didn't take into account, it goes wrong BIG, while hordes are way more forgiving for the most part.

Hmmm ... I disagree. I usually play MSU mobility lists. Its the types of army I prefer to play. And actually you can turn mistakes into redundant errors pretty quickly as long as your core avoidance units are fine. I mean your playing MSU in 8th edition to avoid big loses, because you're bubble wrapping your list to chaff in general terms, if you get that wrong, then you get the whole army type wrong.

Tau_player001
13-05-2013, 23:45
Hmmm ... I disagree. I usually play MSU mobility lists. Its the types of army I prefer to play. And actually you can turn mistakes into redundant errors pretty quickly as long as your core avoidance units are fine. I mean your playing MSU in 8th edition to avoid big loses, because you're bubble wrapping your list to chaff in general terms, if you get that wrong, then you get the whole army type wrong.

Are you saying that its less forgiving because you shouldn't be doing mistakes in the very first place?

Frankly
14-05-2013, 04:39
No not at all. I'm saying mistakes shouldn't cost you as much with multiple small units splitting your points, playing avoidance, bubble wrapping with chaff. The problem with MSU in 8th edition generally isn't commitment to combats(where your likely to loose points), its damage output and gaining big wins against huge blocks of models.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-05-2013, 08:44
15 strong units isn't really MSU, though. Classic MSU is units of 10 or fewer models, ideally 5.


Classic or antique? Nobody plays an army list of 5 model-units only. If that's your definition of MSU, then it is indeed completely unworkable but that's a bit like saying a deathstar list contains just a single unit.


MSU stands for minimum sized units yep. If anything HE benefit less from MSU units purely speaking, but the avoidance list still stands.

There's the disconnect. MSU stands for Many Small Units. What is and what is not small is up to you, so MSU is quite obviously simultaneously weak and strong.


Sorry LSP, some topics just get my blood boiling. Comp and MSU are turning into the Religion and Politics of Warhammer forums, the topics you avoid in polite company. I'll admit that I've been pretty bull-headed and beligerant in this thread and I should probably tone that down.


Same here, Morax. Let me state that I like to read your contributions and accept this olive branch from me. There's no reason to fight over different interpretations of a supposed meta game.

Warmachines might have vanished from your lists but I do not see this as a general trend. Great cannon and HBVG's are very popular. Bolt throwers become more popular. Spear Chukkas seem to be in many O&G lists and so on. I mean we're speaking about some generalized general MSU concept with a HE touch against any of the other factions, so even if your list has no cannon, many, if not most others, do.

Positioning the Waltar behind DGK creates its own problems. Being an extremely slow chariot, it can have a hard time to keep up with them, you often want it in the centre to provide boosts for several units, while DGK make for better flankers than frontline troops. Against HE specifically, one is not just facing a single threat vector. Shots and charges can come from nearly any direction, and I see no reason not to shoot the bolters at the DGK - wounding on 2's, no AS, multi-wounds will make short work of them.



As to Frosty the Pheonix, I'd have to take a longer look at his rules. I'm sure you are accurate in him being a threat to locking units in the formation they start in. I'd need to take a look at his surviveability to see if he needs to be prioritized for removal. As I understand it, his only protection is a ward save and a decent toughness. Banishment would there for be tailor made to remove such a threat.


It's a flyer. You probably get one chance, and a single regular Banishment does perhaps one wound if you're lucky. Once in combat, even Greatswords need 6's to wound, and you're not going to get a horde of attacks.

I'm sure that some lists can, will and have been built that HE struggle with, and I'm confident that you of all people are able to pull off a win but as a general concept that uses multiple threats over just two or three, employs mobility and combined arms, MSU is far from dead.

I also believe that we should not fixate too much on one number. A unit of 20 State Troops is small; a unit of 20 CW is not, and that's before we consider things like game size. Simply having more units/threats than the other side can already be an advantage. For example, I fought against an O&G list last weekend. Two units of boys, a Mangler, a chariot, two Chukkas. Target priority was relatively easy: Outriders 1 deal with the Mangler, OR 2 with the Chukkas, Volleygun points at chariot, archers delay Boys 1, GS + Spearmen gang up on Boys 2.

Of course this was only 1k. The principle however is just the same: Having more, albeit smaller units was an advantage because I had the option to concentrate force pretty much as I wanted whereas my opponent could threaten less units, and usually a smaller chunk of my total (cheap Chukkas excepted but even Outriders can kill those in CC).

One last point: It is not necessary to have units on all sides of a horde (or any unit at that). Two sides are sufficient to prevent a reform.

cptcosmic
14-05-2013, 09:21
Correct me if i am wrong, but it comes from 40k age of MSU (and no, i am not talking about 5th, but further away), and it was minimum sized units because that's how the game because you were able to take weaponry with minimum sized units so that way you would achieve the maximum amount of firepower per slots. If not, you are just MSU haha (maybe someone gets this :d).

as long as I was playing warhammer fantasy it was always "many small units" MSU and "many medium units" MMU (which does not mean much cause I started playing warhammer shortly before the end of the 5th)

Tau_player001
14-05-2013, 10:09
No not at all. I'm saying mistakes shouldn't cost you as much with multiple small units splitting your points, playing avoidance, bubble wrapping with chaff. The problem with MSU in 8th edition generally isn't commitment to combats(where your likely to loose points), its damage output and gaining big wins against huge blocks of models.

My point is that having more tools to play with, does not make you less forgiving since you have to apply the effective amount of force and movements to be able to kill. One screw up and you won't be able to deal with it. You may lose less when one of your units gets killed (that's the whole purpose of MSU) but that doesn't make you mistake free because you are normally cutting corners in your list and play to be able to deal with your opponent in such ways. You can tell me where is the room of error for hordes :P

Lord Solar Plexus
14-05-2013, 10:12
Looking at the first post and judging from the one example of 15 Archers, Thrawn apparently means Many Small Units. I think we all agree that the other interpretation can be seen as a distinct concept but quite likely one that indeed seems inappropriate for this edition. 5 models, unless it's 5 Deamon Princes or something like that are unlikely to achieve much in terms of damage output, resilience, hunting VP. Diverting, delaying and redirecting with small units is nifty and useful but at the end of the day, everyone needs to kill something, somehow.

Elite units of 15 however are a whole different kettle. Again, the absolute number is probably not so important. If someone wants to call his 18 CW MSU, so be it. What's much more important is the principle to outnumber the other side in terms of units and threats, to use deployment drops, superior mobility, superior 1:1 stats, flanks and concentration of force/local superiority to your advantage. At the end of the day, one could even have one horde, say 30 WL, or 40 Greatswords as in the Griffon formation at the heart of this list. Let's not be dogmatic and mince words, let's call it MSU with a horde or whatever you like, it still depends on the same principles even with a breaker unit.

Nevertheless, damage output can come from elsewhere. I remember a Skaven list with a dozen or so blocks of 20 Clanrats to maximize the number of weapon teams, plus plenty of Gutter Runners and Rat Darts. Of course each of these immediately goes Poof when hit by a horde but each horde usually can only hit one of them, and that's if they don't flee. So what are you going to do in order not to expose a flank? Stand still and keep the line intact? In that case youre under a constant barrage, and even with the supposed unreliability of weapon teams it can quite easily neutralize one of those hordes.

Or are you going to charge and risk a failed charge? Then you're suddenly likely to expose a flank. Yes, close combat depends on the actual numbers involved, whether one has a crown and lots of factors but a flank alone will completely change the odds. Instead of 10:30 attacks, the ratio is suddenly 10:5-6 - and depending on previous casualties and actual remaining ranks, I can see a situation in which that horde is not steadfast anymore. That's especially true when you charged into the odd Warpfire thrower or so...

Back to HE, I think they can pull it off quite well. They've got stubborn troops, high damage potential, incredible mobility with Ithilmar barding, flyers en masse, credible BS, and at least one very decent blocker in the form of the Phoenix, plus a 3++ PG. Coupled with magic, they can whittle down a horde quite well if they concentrate on it, block the central one and by simple virtue of space and size take the one on the far flank out of the fight for quite some time.

Frankly
14-05-2013, 11:24
My point is that having more tools to play with, does not make you less forgiving since you have to apply the effective amount of force and movements to be able to kill. One screw up and you won't be able to deal with it.

I understand your point completely. I just disagree with it. :) I'm not saying your wrong, just that I have a different view towards MSU lists.

A reasonable MSU lists will usually have utility or chaff built into it to give you a certain amount of redundancy or 'forgiveness' to either protect for huge point swings or recover from multipule losses in a turn.

Playing my 8th HE game this morning, loosing out to NGs and their insane amount of magic/shooting when it all comes good in a turn. That being said, I really enjoyed the 'unit utility' the HE armybook can bring to the table. For example my skycutters are a deploy drop, shots, march blocks, support charges into combat, other games they've redirected. My MSU SW units are a deployment drop, shots and harrasses the flanks, one supports combat and the other redirects. The overlapping utility of the HE units can let you take losses and recover through redundancy. Unless theres a huge amount of shooting or magic or long random multi-charges(which isn't the same a screwing up)like this morning, then really, I usually don't see huge point swings against MSU avoidance lists.

thrawn
14-05-2013, 22:24
I understand your point completely. I just disagree with it. :) I'm not saying your wrong, just that I have a different view towards MSU lists.

A reasonable MSU lists will usually have utility or chaff built into it to give you a certain amount of redundancy or 'forgiveness' to either protect for huge point swings or recover from multipule losses in a turn.

Playing my 8th HE game this morning, loosing out to NGs and their insane amount of magic/shooting when it all comes good in a turn. That being said, I really enjoyed the 'unit utility' the HE armybook can bring to the table. For example my skycutters are a deploy drop, shots, march blocks, support charges into combat, other games they've redirected. My MSU SW units are a deployment drop, shots and harrasses the flanks, one supports combat and the other redirects. The overlapping utility of the HE units can let you take losses and recover through redundancy. Unless theres a huge amount of shooting or magic or long random multi-charges(which isn't the same a screwing up)like this morning, then really, I usually don't see huge point swings against MSU avoidance lists.

i think what he means by more forgiving is that a large horde will be (or should be) steadfast against an MSU army.

steadfast really breaks an MSU army because if all you have is 10 units of 10 guys you won't be able to break his horde (he'll always be steadfast) whereas he can break your units if you make a mistake (you will not be steadfast). counter point is you'll give up less points, so both arguements have their merit.

i played against the new HE and he had an MSU/MMU army and i won. his biggest shortfall was not being able to break my steadfast infernal guard (my other army is chaos dwarfs).

i'm going to definitely try an MSU army and base it around shooting and avoidance, but i think once his line gets to my shooting i'll be in trouble. if i haven't worn down his ranks and he's still steadfast i won't be able to break him and i'll probably lose.

anyone got any battle reports? i'm still waiting for my HEs to get here in the mail, but once they do i'm going to start using MSU armies and i'll post the battle reps here.

Runt Nosher
15-05-2013, 02:47
So I am very intrigued by this conversation. I read just about all of it in one sitting and most of you are saying the same things from the opposite side of the fence. Some of you are saying that MSU is inherently weak because it pays off many more times in small amounts (thrawn, Frankly) while some are saying it is inherently stronger and works because mistakes end up costing less while you drown your opponent and score big off of his eggy basket. Both points of view are from probably differing list styles also but I have had the chance to play some tough tourney ready lists at 2.5k and I think they both hold a lot of merit.

Depending on the opponent and what Lore/Spells you take/get or whether you ignore both of those things and field a Monster Mash in your face 7th Ed Cav-hammer style. I think 8th takes them in a bit more subtle MMU approach where all the core, all the special and each rare are NEEDED in a list but you won't have enough points to cover all of your bases and need to design something that works together. White Lions + Frostheart = Good, Phoenix Guard + Frostheart = Not as good. RBTs + Eagles = Good, RBTs + Sisters = bye bye beasts of Nurgle. You still need to build redundancy in your lists also, 3x15 White Lions is better than the other two units in said formations, but a lot can be said about 21 PG supported by 18 Smasters. MSU isn't just 120 point dark rider units w/ shades and rxbowmen, and hasn't been for a long time. I have 120 elves and 12 drops, take two more drops and I'd be close. It's a lot of fun, especially micro managing high magic casts with BoH

Shadeseraph
15-05-2013, 03:45
I do think it works. However, I also think this kind of play benefits the most of the phoenixes. They are durable, and grant a ton of utility, while having a small frontage. flying means it's quite easy to get rear or side charges with them, so they can pin hordes down, and the -1 to S and ASL actually makes those T3 AS5+ elves a lot more durable. And thunderstomp, of course.

They have their share of problems (mainly, Maidenguards and RBTs are also rare, and cannons), but they are the perfect utility for a MSU based army. In dire need, a single frostheart can tarpit pretty much any common horde by itself a couple rounds unsupported (although you'll need to dispel any magic support).

In general, I do think MSU is perfectly viable with HE, but not much more than before. I used to run SM MSUs previously quite succesfully, but now they've been replaced by WL (3x3+1 formation), which do their job a bit worse than the old swordmasters, even with the 3 rank into account (but they are more survibable to enemy fire). I'm also tempted to use Shadow Warriors now. They are cheap, efficient against warmachines and chaff, and stubborn in forests. A MSU of archers/SH/reavers, WL, SW and phoenixes/RBTs seems quite decent.

decker_cky
15-05-2013, 04:15
You don't need 15 archers to take advantage of 3 ranks. 10 archers 3 wide has all 10 shots. Gives you an even smaller frontage and more maneuverability.

AkodoGilador
15-05-2013, 09:02
i played against the new HE and he had an MSU/MMU army and i won. his biggest shortfall was not being able to break my steadfast infernal guard (my other army is chaos dwarfs).
Somewhat like a Navy having many more destroyers and frigates than capital ships, a better approach is surely to have a range of sizes, rather than just all horde or all MSU. A unit of, say, 25 Phoenix Guard has a lot of survivability, and, in 5x5 formation, a lot more maneuvrability than a 5x10 horde. And at 405pts including full command, there's plenty of points left for lots of small units - Silver Helms, Reavers, White Lions, Swordmasters - of 5-15 models, who can hit flanks and deal out the damage.

Alex

boli
15-05-2013, 22:55
Somewhat like a Navy having many more destroyers and frigates than capital ships, a better approach is surely to have a range of sizes, rather than just all horde or all MSU. A unit of, say, 25 Phoenix Guard has a lot of survivability, and, in 5x5 formation, a lot more maneuvrability than a 5x10 horde. And at 405pts including full command, there's plenty of points left for lots of small units - Silver Helms, Reavers, White Lions, Swordmasters - of 5-15 models, who can hit flanks and deal out the damage.

Alex

This. I've had most success with a mixture of unit sizes/power. Using multiple units in differing sizes offers the best approach. There is a lot to say for a bus of spears support charging a horde pinned down but unable to be broken by a couple of MSU units

thrawn
16-05-2013, 14:49
Somewhat like a Navy having many more destroyers and frigates than capital ships, a better approach is surely to have a range of sizes, rather than just all horde or all MSU. A unit of, say, 25 Phoenix Guard has a lot of survivability, and, in 5x5 formation, a lot more maneuvrability than a 5x10 horde. And at 405pts including full command, there's plenty of points left for lots of small units - Silver Helms, Reavers, White Lions, Swordmasters - of 5-15 models, who can hit flanks and deal out the damage.

Alex

this is likely where you'll find the most success i think. your going to need at least one decent sized unit for the ranks to eliminate steadfast, and then MSU to hit his flanks and break him. i also agree that phoenix guard are best for this role.

Von Wibble
16-05-2013, 21:25
I have to echo this - though white lions can also fill the role very nicely too, thanks to stubborn, and sheer hitting power. My own intended 2500 point force will have a largish unit of each, then lots of support units. Phoenixes and Skycutters are both great in this role, I can see Griffon nobles having a chance too.

That said, this has been my kind of approach with High Elves since 7th edition, so I wouldn't say its now feasible as the thread title implies - just that high elves in general have become a stronger force.

Shadeseraph
16-05-2013, 23:52
Somewhat like a Navy having many more destroyers and frigates than capital ships, a better approach is surely to have a range of sizes, rather than just all horde or all MSU. A unit of, say, 25 Phoenix Guard has a lot of survivability, and, in 5x5 formation, a lot more maneuvrability than a 5x10 horde. And at 405pts including full command, there's plenty of points left for lots of small units - Silver Helms, Reavers, White Lions, Swordmasters - of 5-15 models, who can hit flanks and deal out the damage.

Alex

I believe the point is not if it is the most effective kind of army, but if a MSU HE oriented army is viable. Of course, a mixed approach is likely to be better most of the time, but you may like the kind of strategic thinking you need to use to take down bigger units with smaller ones.

Morax
17-05-2013, 12:01
I won't quote all the posts that suggest or talk about balanced lists as they are too many. Suffice it to say that this MSU thread has turned into a "How to play a balanced High Elf list" thread. That alone seems to push the answer to the OP that no, it doesn't work. You are going to need a few larger units to make all that support work.

That being said, the High Elf book pushes more support units in functional roles than any other. The builds that will be popular will start to look much like a well constructed Empire army, just with less models on the table. At 2500 points, I'll expect to see 4-500 points spent on free floating support such as; Noble on eagle/griffon, a pheonix or 2, a pair of eagles, maybe a unit or 2 of reavers. More that that and you will have too weak of a core to work off of those supports. High Elf players are in for a new and challenging period, their book functions almost nothing like what it used to. Take the nice support units, but beware of taking too many.

Soundwave
17-05-2013, 15:41
I won't quote all the posts that suggest or talk about balanced lists as they are too many. Suffice it to say that this MSU thread has turned into a "How to play a balanced High Elf list" thread. That alone seems to push the answer to the OP that no, it doesn't work. You are going to need a few larger units to make all that support work.

That being said, the High Elf book pushes more support units in functional roles than any other. The builds that will be popular will start to look much like a well constructed Empire army, just with less models on the table. At 2500 points, I'll expect to see 4-500 points spent on free floating support such as; Noble on eagle/griffon, a pheonix or 2, a pair of eagles, maybe a unit or 2 of reavers. More that that and you will have too weak of a core to work off of those supports. High Elf players are in for a new and challenging period, their book functions almost nothing like what it used to. Take the nice support units, but beware of taking too many.

Agreed!Elven armies are geared toward balance for most all comers...although can still be tailored for specific roles and enemies.My opinion atm is that the book is still quite rare and will need some cooking,although people are stressed about certain magic items i am far more worried about martial prowess especially with cavalry!(and i play with and own high elves,but my mate plays and owns them better and i am more of a dark elf)