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View Full Version : HE Magic Capability Weakened?



Geech
08-05-2013, 00:23
After reviewing my new army book, it seems that all of the magical toys used to lever up my magic phase has been exiled. No more Banner of Sorcery, no more Annulian Crystal, no more Sigil of Asuryan, no mas Steerstaff, etc etc etc.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to compensate for this magical larceny.

HE seemed to have been severely weakened in this aspect. I do like magic a lot to strengthen my T3 guys.

NitrosOkay
08-05-2013, 00:44
Book of Hoeth is really good for the points.

I think a lot of stuff got better in the book but the magic is less good to compensate.

VampireOrcElf
08-05-2013, 02:31
Our lore is still very strong, if not alot better, we needed all the extra gear last book because all our units were over priced, but now i dont see it as a problem, and relying on magic is never a good thing

Brikhause
08-05-2013, 03:58
Look after actually playing a few games I have found that the high elf magic actually got better. The mere fact that high magic actually buffs ward saves is huge, and makes our units stand in cc so much better. If you think you are going to have a harder time getting spells off because of the lack of power dice generation than you have to consider book of hoeth. You will be able to nickel and dime your opponent's defenses simply by rolling single dice with a re-roll. Not to mention that we have access to so much flexibility with spell selection probably more than any other army in 8th. When you consider you have two signatures, teclis, and the loremaster. Oh did I mention our spellcasters got cheaper.

If you think our magic defense got weaker just look at Phoenix guard with a 3+ ward save, botwd, book of hoeth, and than cast fiery convocation on a big unit, and watch your opponent have to devote 6 power dice on his magic phase to ensure it goes away.

The best part is that opponents can't claim cheese because we irrisistible force everything. Instead we make our opponents make tough decisions on what to try and dispel by ovebearing him with spells we easily cast since we get +5 to cast with a re-roll. I am loving our magic potential.

Laniston
08-05-2013, 04:51
I agree that our magic seems improved. We don't generate as many power dice but that is fair. What we did gain is efficiency thanks to the book of hoeth and a lore full of easy to cast spells. A lvl 4 archmage is casting at +5 which is great.

And our archmages and mages got cheaper to boot so now we can have more of them.

Edit: I just ended up repeating the previous post..... +1 for him!

Don Zeko
08-05-2013, 04:55
Also, too, Loremasters look fracking awesome as support casters. Lvl 4 w/book of hoeth and loremaster w/dispel scroll is a quality magic phase right there.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-05-2013, 05:11
Our lore is still very strong, if not alot better, we needed all the extra gear last book because all our units were over priced, but now i dont see it as a problem, and relying on magic is never a good thing

You obviously haven't played with the book at top level yet, or seem to understand utility and threat interdiction well, because the new H.E lore is horrible and overpriced for it's abilities. There's only two (maybe 3) spells one would want to want cast, not to mention that the lore attribute is really mediocre as well, if not flat out garbage/useless. Thus H.E lot is nerfed (wasn't terribly strong to begin with), while the actual magic phase is only diminished, not cleaned out.

Brotheroracle
08-05-2013, 05:37
ArchMage with a book of hoeth is neat and all but, and this is a big but, two things have been pointed out:
1. Lore of High Magic might not be as great as life or shadow
2. The Book of hoeth is better the more spells you cast as you can really stretch your magic dice out.

So what I purpose is Loremaster of Hoeth with the book of Hoeth, (crazy right?) he has the number of spells to really exploit the Book. With two buff spells, two debuff spells, and a number of direct damage spells he will really maximise your return with the book.

Kayosiv
08-05-2013, 05:50
the new H.E lore is horrible and overpriced for it's abilities. There's only two (maybe 3) spells one would want to want cast, not to mention that the lore attribute is really mediocre as well, if not flat out garbage/useless.

Am I just missing sarcasm here or something?

Every spell in the lore is useful and some are downright amazing. The lore attribute is probably the best lore attribute of any lore in the game when you consider how many innate ward saves high elves already have.

Voss
08-05-2013, 05:58
Am I just missing sarcasm here or something?

Every spell in the lore is useful and some are downright amazing. The lore attribute is probably the best lore attribute of any lore in the game when you consider how many innate ward saves high elves already have.

I was wondering the same thing. Unlike most lores there aren't any stinkers, and most are quite good, and the lore attribute works quite well with the army.

NitrosOkay
08-05-2013, 06:01
Am I just missing sarcasm here or something?

Every spell in the lore is useful and some are downright amazing. The lore attribute is probably the best lore attribute of any lore in the game when you consider how many innate ward saves high elves already have.

I don't know. Drain magic is.. alright. Soul Quench is just your typical mediocre magic missile. Apotheosis is not amazing but not bad. Hand of Glory is alright but when you already have a weapon skill/I advantage over most armies it's not amazing. Walk Between Worlds has some interesting uses but I wouldn't call it a game breaking spell. Tempest is.. alright for that casting value. Arcane Unforging is strong against some armies. Fiery Convocation is really nasty if you get it off, have fun eating their entire magic phase to get rid of it.

The lore attribute can be very strong but also requires your wizard sit in a unit in combat which is unfortunate.

The whole lore is pretty balanced I'd say. Which for tournament players means it's "horrible" because it isn't shadow.

Brikhause
08-05-2013, 08:04
Yes the sigs are ok, but that is why their sigs. Drain magic is great because it levels the buffs back to even, and you said your self that high elves already have the edge against most armies so when things are even we win combats. Hand of glory has multiple uses not just cc, but it gives us the edge against high weapon skill armies and also improves our shooting and with 10pt archers and martial prowess can actually do some damage, also don't take our high initiative for granted there are so many time it can be nullified by buffed warriors or key dark elf units.. The soul quench magic missile is great because it is so easily casted, and is probably the most powerful magic missile for the casting value. On that note look at the casting value of the lore it is relatively cheep to cast and we get an additional +1 to cast it. Apotheosis, walk between worlds, and arcane unforging are all spells that our opponents have to heavily consider dispelling. Who would want wounds they inflicted on a character or big monster to heal? Who would allow their opponent to suddenly be in key position on his flank or rear? Finally, who would risk losing a key precious magic item such as crown of command, talisman of preservation, or hellheart?

The high magic lore has so much potential, and so much synergy that it is competitive for a true tactician. I am loving the possibilities!

Kayosiv
08-05-2013, 10:27
Soul Quench is just your typical mediocre magic missile.

If that's true, what is Gaze of Nagash?

Rake
08-05-2013, 11:46
High Magic looks like it can compete with Shadows and Life. Looks like... but can't. I see a lot of fun and games for a few weeks until people realize that vaporizing 1/2 your enemies deathstar or making your elves T5 is just better that gimmicky situational spells. My first reaction in a Lvl 4 with Book of Hoeth and a real lore with a lvl 2 for Drain magic and scroll caddy. Plus the BSB. So, business as usual.

N1AK
08-05-2013, 12:05
High Magic looks like it can compete with Shadows and Life. Looks like... but can't. I see a lot of fun and games for a few weeks until people realize that vaporizing 1/2 your enemies deathstar or making your elves T5 is just better that gimmicky situational spells. My first reaction in a Lvl 4 with Book of Hoeth and a real lore with a lvl 2 for Drain magic and scroll caddy. Plus the BSB. So, business as usual.

Most of the spells aren't that situational though, especially no more so than Mindrazor is anyway in that you need to have a unit in combat/about to be charged that actually needs the strength buff. I think Life is probably a stronger lore but I don't think it's such a large margin that High Magic won't be seen in competitive builds.

Enigmatik1
08-05-2013, 12:24
I think the possible tactical applications of High Magic are actually quite extensive at a glance. Sure, it's not beating everything over the head with Mindrazor but I think you guys can get a lot of mileage out of the lore once you give it a chance. Remember, it could always be worse. ;)

boli
08-05-2013, 12:39
You will have a lot less dice to throw but high magic is a lot more powerful, and flexible whilst remaining pretty much point per point the most efficient lore.

Casting Flame-cage on a unit is a double-edged sword for the opponent as they will be trying to dispel it *twice*. wasting 5 dice of their own casting pool to dispel it should not be overstated enough as often the result will be you will have more dispel dice than he has power dice remaining.

Von Wibble
08-05-2013, 18:51
I think high elves have become masters of the trickle magic phase.

The loremaster and High magic lores, along with Book of Hoeth, encourage throwing 1-2 dice at cheap spells several times in a phase. I the case of high magic its to give a 5+ ward to the unit. In the case of the loremaster, its because he has cheap sig spells to cast, and lots of them.

Overall the enemy will find in a bog standard 7 dice vs 5 dice magic phase that he will have to dispel 4-5 spells, all of roughly equal importance. There's a good chance you'll get 2 through if not 3 each time.

Fighting Newfoundlander
08-05-2013, 21:09
your magic options are amazing. you have some of the best units in the game. The new book gave you some game-breaking anti-magic options. complaining about it seems silly really. Just ask a daemon player if they feel you've been hard done by.