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RTB01
09-05-2013, 17:42
Broadsides were once the scourge of heavy armour and dropping them to S8 means they're not that scary to Russ any more. Would adding the 'Lance' USR solve this problem?...

This isn't here to moan about broadsides but simply a suggestion that is quick and easy to resolve the issue?...

Charistoph
09-05-2013, 17:58
But isn't that the chief moan about the Broadside's heavy gun?

Personally, I'd find it odd that the smaller brother of a gun had Lance while the larger didn't.

Of course, most other armies would kill to have that rifle. I'd even consider it a toss up versus the Lascannon.

djhowitzer
09-05-2013, 18:01
like tau dont have enough guns. get some perspective. it is still a great gun.

RTB01
09-05-2013, 18:05
I'm not saying that Tau don't have enough guns - far from it. I don't even play Tau in fairness so this is from an objective perspective. I don't think that S8 cuts it at heavy anti-armour yet this is historically what it's supposed to do. This really isn't supposed to be a moan but a suggestion. More guns is the last thing tau need :P

djhowitzer
09-05-2013, 18:07
if you get the rail cannon from the broadside, can my wraithseer have the dcannon from the warphunter please

MajorWesJanson
09-05-2013, 18:18
S8 AP1 is quite nasty still, especially when you can give it either skyfire or interceptor.
Broadside losing S10 does not kill Tau ability vs AV14, as not only do we have longstrike to make a hammerhead even more awesome, Fusion blasters gained much needed range, and suits can now take double fusion or TL+single fusion. And while CC is typically not the realm of Tau, we do have the Onager gauntlet, EMP grenades, and the Riptide can smash attack.
Broadsides are better balanced now. Before, the only thing the Hammerhead had over them was a submunition. There was really no reason not to take multiple teams of broadsides. Now they are not so jack of all trades, and other HS choices are viable again.

Bobthemime
09-05-2013, 20:42
S8 AP1 is quite nasty still, especially when you can give it either skyfire or interceptor.
Broadside losing S10 does not kill Tau ability vs AV14, as not only do we have longstrike to make a hammerhead even more awesome, Fusion blasters gained much needed range, and suits can now take double fusion or TL+single fusion. And while CC is typically not the realm of Tau, we do have the Onager gauntlet, EMP grenades, and the Riptide can smash attack.
Broadsides are better balanced now. Before, the only thing the Hammerhead had over them was a submunition. There was really no reason not to take multiple teams of broadsides. Now they are not so jack of all trades, and other HS choices are viable again.


I agree with you here.. 12 FW with EMP's charging a LR just need roll 4 2's to destroy it

and farsightbomb is fun.. all those delicious FB and Plasma landing behind your tanks and destorying things.

Theocracity
09-05-2013, 20:54
I'm not saying that Tau don't have enough guns - far from it. I don't even play Tau in fairness so this is from an objective perspective. I don't think that S8 cuts it at heavy anti-armour yet this is historically what it's supposed to do. This really isn't supposed to be a moan but a suggestion. More guns is the last thing tau need :P

The key word there is 'historically.' Historically, leeches were used for medicinal purposes.

Broadsides don't fill the role of anti-heavy armor anymore. They're very powerful in their role of anti-medium armor and anti-flyer. There's no need to 'fix' them.

Gossipmeng
09-05-2013, 20:55
I've gladly traded my str 10 broadsides for 18" fusions blasters. Broadsides were too safe a choice for too long, they needed to make the high yield pods a equal option. I don't run hammerheads and I'm doing fine without str 10.

Bobthemime
09-05-2013, 21:19
I've gladly traded my str 10 broadsides for 18" fusions blasters. Broadsides were too safe a choice for too long, they needed to make the high yield pods a equal option. I don't run hammerheads and I'm doing fine without str 10.

I run DE.. str 10 deosnt exist in my armoury.

djhowitzer
09-05-2013, 21:22
yeah. but you get melta and lance on a gun you can put on a jetbike, so its not like you need it

Bobthemime
09-05-2013, 21:31
yeah. but you get melta and lance on a gun you can put on a jetbike, so its not like you need it

;)

I still cant decide if that or other weapon is better.. as str 8 lance will have a higher chance to pen av14 than str 6 melta lance.

Charistoph
09-05-2013, 21:43
Also the true benefit of Str 10 is its effectiveness against AV 13 + 14 (especially 14). Most of which are terribly expensive and can't be effectively spammed in the current game anyway.

Saunders
09-05-2013, 21:48
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-05-2013, 22:25
S8 AP1 would be good at about 2/3 of a broadside's points cost. But dropping just 5 points and going from S10 to S8 is just harsh. It's not like they were overpowered in the general sense before (as opposed to in the specific sense of being better than any other Tau unit, sure, but in the overall metagame, no).

Ssilmath
09-05-2013, 22:34
S8 AP1 would be good at about 2/3 of a broadside's points cost. But dropping just 5 points and going from S10 to S8 is just harsh. It's not like they were overpowered in the general sense before (as opposed to in the specific sense of being better than any other Tau unit, sure, but in the overall metagame, no).

They also got 8 points of upgrades for free, Twin Linked/Ignores Cover on the primary seconday weapon system and a discount on the alternate secondary weapon system. So it's more like they dropped 18 points.

Bobthemime
09-05-2013, 22:50
S8 AP1 would be good at about 2/3 of a broadside's points cost. But dropping just 5 points and going from S10 to S8 is just harsh. It's not like they were overpowered in the general sense before (as opposed to in the specific sense of being better than any other Tau unit, sure, but in the overall metagame, no).

so you would prefer a str 10 ap 1 shot with skyfire/interceptor?

at 60"

Individual8580
10-05-2013, 04:32
Make the rail weapons roll 2d6 - pick the highest for armor penetration.

Gooner
10-05-2013, 05:08
Well I for one am ok with having S8 rail guns on broadsides. I already blow the **** out of other armies and having more S10 would be a bit excessive. My railheads and Riptides can take care of A14 leaving my broadsides to pick on flyers or lighter armour. I really like the hierarchy of weapons systems that we have now. It makes me have to think about the order I choose to fire guns in. Having S10 everywhere makes the tau too easy. The last game I played my two rail rifle broadsides with Skyfire nuked a IA fighter bomber with shots to spare.

ehlijen
10-05-2013, 05:27
The broadsides are fine as they are as is S10 being limited to hammerheads. What might be debatable is whether the need more long range S9 shooting.

On the one hand the Tau are left with no heavy AT ranged option other than railheads and riptides risking a gets hot anymore. On the other hand Fusion blasters and EMP grenades both became a lot better and accessible while wider access to S7 takes care of the medium vehicle repellent needs.

It's a bit unfortunate that the Railhead will still eclipse the ionhead so much because of the vaunted S10, but unlike earlier editions, I don't think it does so for a good reason anymore.

Shadeseraph
10-05-2013, 05:31
Actually, the broadsides are still outstanding (and this is coming from someone who initially though the new ones weren't worth a damn... although that was before the missile drone update). In so much that they still are the go-to for heavy support choices. Giving them anti-tank power on par with the one they previously had would make them even bigger no-brainers than before.

If you wanted to boost the HRR a bit, I instead would try to support their current role. If they were rapid fire instead of heavy (which makes sense, as the rail rifle is also rapid fire), they would be able to compete with HYMP, and that would give them a different "role" to cover, as a mobile platform (specially paired with plasma rifles).

Kakapo42
10-05-2013, 06:45
If you wanted to boost the HRR a bit, I instead would try to support their current role. If they were rapid fire instead of heavy (which makes sense, as the rail rifle is also rapid fire), they would be able to compete with HYMP, and that would give them a different "role" to cover, as a mobile platform (specially paired with plasma rifles).

I think I'd make it heavy 2 rather than rapid fire, so as not to make them too mobile. Not that I think they need that. I think the problem most people have is that they're thinking of the heavy rail-rifle as a weaker railgun. I have since started to instead consider it a longer-ranged more powerful plasma rifle. Give a bunch of rail-sides plasma rifles and Early Warning Overrides and watch deep-strikers weep. Now it still doesn't solve the issue of them being brilliant tank-hunters in the background, but hey it's still something.

daveNYC
10-05-2013, 08:12
I'm don't think that HRR's are broken. The missle loadout is infinitely more preferable to me, but that's not exactly the same as the rail option being broken.

The sticking point is that Broadsides can be geared up with Interceptor or Skyfire, and GW, strangely, doesn't seem to want to have high strength/AP 1-2 Skyfire weapons.

The relative lack of S9 weapons in the Tau codex is rather strange.

Individual8580
10-05-2013, 08:34
The missle loadout is infinitely more preferable to me, but that's not exactly the same as the rail option being broken.

How come? One would expect that two options which cost the equal amount of points would have similar utility, even if they'd have different roles. Now the HYMP is indeed infinitively more preferable. Since it's superior to HRR either the HRR need a boost or the HYMP would have to cost some extra points.

daveNYC
10-05-2013, 09:05
I did say 'to me'. Personally I'd rather have a heap of slightly lower strength shots. There's others who I guess are more into the low AP and the chance to glance AV14.
For me to be digging the HRR, I'd want it to be S9, you know, to have a chance at killing (with a pen) AV14. It's not, so anti-heavy armor is going to have to come from elsewhere and missilesides allow for the throwing of gobs of dice at any specific problem.

So for me the Missileside is preferable, but that's more due to personal preference than raw weapon ability, so I can't exactly say that the HRR is broken. It's not like the difference between the Hades Autocannon and the Baleflamer on the 'drake. That's one of those choices where the better choice is just plain better.

MagicHat
10-05-2013, 09:24
I think that the HRR should be able to penetrate AV14 someway as well.
Three options for that:
S9, increasing its power against all tanks.
Lance, increasing power versus AV13-14 only, but then it would be weird that the Railgun wouldn't have lance.
Rending, which is only useful versus AV14.

blackcherry
10-05-2013, 09:48
Broadsides are better balanced now. Before, the only thing the Hammerhead had over them was a submunition. There was really no reason not to take multiple teams of broadsides. Now they are not so jack of all trades, and other HS choices are viable again.

Got it in one. Before, there was no reason to take anything but Broadsides in Heavy Support and sit at the back of the board killing vehicles. With the strength drop, the rest of the HS choices have become a lot more appealing. I'm also happy with Lance mostly being an Eldar thing.

ehlijen
10-05-2013, 10:16
I think that the HRR should be able to penetrate AV14 someway as well.
Three options for that:
S9, increasing its power against all tanks.
Lance, increasing power versus AV13-14 only, but then it would be weird that the Railgun wouldn't have lance.
Rending, which is only useful versus AV14.

It really shouldn't. It's fine as it is, glancing flyers on 4's at most and getting +2 to the damage roll, ignoring 2+ saves, instant killing T4 creatures, being able to actually glance AV14 and having far better range than missile pods.

Before changing the HRR, I'd rather see alternate missile options for the skyray. Like maybe EMP ones. But first, if you think you need help against AV14, try more fusion blasters and see if that cures your problem.

RTB01
10-05-2013, 13:12
The key word there is 'historically.' Historically, leeches were used for medicinal purposes.

Broadsides don't fill the role of anti-heavy armor anymore. They're very powerful in their role of anti-medium armor and anti-flyer. There's no need to 'fix' them.

Maybe leeches were used for medicinal purposes. I do think they are still used for medicinal purposes as well... The Historically argument is a fallacy I think. :p

A HRR then and now is the same weapon. Clearly stat lines can change. The classic that did was the Starcannon which was hugely changed in many opinions. I don't think that Broadsides should be an auto choice but when the book is describing their ability to drop Imperial armour columns yet in gaming reality they would struggle to drop a single Russ. That to me just seems odd.

I know it's the classic fluff vs playability ideas but personally I think they could do with a change. Clearly within a Tau force they don't lack AT and there are plenty of other ways of getting it. But by that idea should I settle for Strongbow just because Bulmers has sold out?

Konovalev
10-05-2013, 13:26
I'd say quick fix for Broadsides would be to make the heavy rail rifle S9 AP1 Get's Hot, and remove their ability to buy velocity trackers. Instead give them a rail rifle upgrade they could buy(similar to railgun submunition upgrade) that came with its own profile. Say Skydart rounds: twin-linked S8 AP2 Skyfire, and price it the same as the velocity tracker. And then give the high yield missile pod skyfire inherently but kick it's price up 5-10 points (iirc it's currently a free weapon change).

Now heavy railrifle's can still reasonably threaten heavy armor, and with the skydart upgrade, or buying high yield missile pods, also provide good anti-air.

BigHammer
10-05-2013, 13:27
I run DE.. str 10 deosnt exist in my armoury.

You haven't looked hard enough, then :P
There's two arcane items with S10 (though admittedly one of them wounds against Ld, the other works just fine, even though it's one-shot).
We have two monstrous creatures in our heavy support section that can both achieve S10.
Soul traps can, on rare occasions, give you a S10 Archon or Haemonculus.

MagicHat
10-05-2013, 14:18
It really shouldn't. It's fine as it is, glancing flyers on 4's at most and getting +2 to the damage roll, ignoring 2+ saves, instant killing T4 creatures, being able to actually glance AV14 and having far better range than missile pods.

Before changing the HRR, I'd rather see alternate missile options for the skyray. Like maybe EMP ones. But first, if you think you need help against AV14, try more fusion blasters and see if that cures your problem.

I don't play Tau.
Tau have 2 long range options against AV14, Riptides overcharging either main weapons and Hammerheads. 9 Broadsides with HRR inflicting 1 hullpoint, not counting cover is not even worth mentioning in the context. With rending, that would be a penetrating hit, which would at least do something.
To me, HRR being limited to glancing AV14 is as daft as the Nephilim having S6 AA missiles when the establised S of AA missiles is S7.

daveNYC
10-05-2013, 14:29
The established S of MPAD missiles is S7. So yeah, it's like saying an AAMRAM is weaker than a Stinger.
I'm not sure I'd consider the Heavy Burst Cannon in Nova mode to be viable against AV14. Between the Nova reactor roll and the fact that nova charge is Heavy 12 Gets Hot (what could possibly go wrong there?) you'd better be using loaded dice if you're hoping to take out heavy armor with that.

Bobthemime
10-05-2013, 15:08
You haven't looked hard enough, then :P
There's two arcane items with S10 (though admittedly one of them wounds against Ld, the other works just fine, even though it's one-shot).
We have two monstrous creatures in our heavy support section that can both achieve S10.
Soul traps can, on rare occasions, give you a S10 Archon or Haemonculus.

I looked and found them trying at best.

Soul Trap you need a stupid opponent to let your archon kill an IC or MC.

The arcane items are pants tbh..

and the MC are worse.

BigHammer
10-05-2013, 15:37
I looked and found them trying at best.

Soul Trap you need a stupid opponent to let your archon kill an IC or MC.

The arcane items are pants tbh..

and the MC are worse.

Hah, I agree entirely. They do exist, though ;)

Vaktathi
10-05-2013, 15:47
I don't think there's anything that needs to be fixed on the Broadside and its Heavy Rail Rifle. For what they cost, they're very solid, I wish my IG had an infantry unit with that kind of firepower, accuracy, range, and staying power. While losing out on the S10 is an understandable bummer, it was a necessary change to make the Hammerhead have a point, and the extra wargear/options the broadside gained help make up for that, and at its current cost is still a very excellent support fire unit.

Rated_lexxx
10-05-2013, 17:03
Why do they need to be "fixed"? Theres nothing wrong with them

Are they weaker then before. Well maybe they are, but this is not the same codex or even same edition. Things will change.

Tastyfish
10-05-2013, 17:20
Why do they need to be "fixed"? Theres nothing wrong with them

Are they weaker then before. Well maybe they are, but this is not the same codex or even same edition. Things will change.

There's a very small niche - the HYMP is better or equal against all vehicles apart from AV14, at which the HRR Broadside is not an effective solution. Against marines, terminators and monstrous creatures, the HYMP is better or equal to the HRR.
The HRR only gets ahead against 2 wound T4 terminators, and where the extra range can make a difference. To balance these advantages, it's generally half as good at killing things like light/medium vehicles compared to the HYMP alternative.

The problem is that there's almost no reason to take them - at what they're good at, the other variant is better, and where they can actually pull ahead over the HYMP, there are units that will easily outperform them elsewhere. There's better units to kill units of 2W terminators that cost less and are more flexible. The unit isn't bad, it's just pointless.

If they were 2 shots (i.e rapid fire) or S9 then the two guns would be a lot more equal, being roughly similar statistically but excelling in two different areas (AV10, low HP vehicles vs AV13/14).

S10 using a support system (so no interceptor, skyfire, precision fire etc) would probably still keep both choices competitive but the boost to the Hammerhead ioncannon might make the Railgun Hammerhead a slightly less popular choice. Then again people didn't take Broadsides over Hammerheads before because they were unreasonably good - relying on a single anti-tank gun on a tank is just not really a decent solution to the problems posed by Landraiders and Leman Russ squadrons. People generally took hammerheads for the large blast as much as the mobile railgun. Fusion blasters and outflanking is now the way Tau deal with heavy armour, Hammerheads are still not reliable enough to be the solution here.

Bobthemime
10-05-2013, 18:44
This is like the BaleDrake thread..

2 things that wont get changed for at least 4 years.

if they faq the gun to be str 9 great.. but the str 10 shot is gone now.. get over it.

Baaltor
10-05-2013, 19:42
There's a very small niche - the HYMP is better or equal against all vehicles apart from AV14

It's got one point less strength, no AP 1, and half the range. How the hell is the HYMP as good or better? It looks pretty damn incomparable.

And yes, Tau have few options to deal with AV 14, just like most other armies. This is what makes heavy armour worth something, which it still usually isn't.

Individual8580
10-05-2013, 19:51
I don't think there's anything that needs to be fixed on the Broadside and its Heavy Rail Rifle. For what they cost, they're very solid, I wish my IG had an infantry unit with that kind of firepower, accuracy, range, and staying power.

I think the Guard has a fair acces to lascannons, even twin-linked ones. The HRR is kind of a like watered down Lascannon.


...and I wish I had all the pieplates.

Vaktathi
10-05-2013, 19:55
I think the Guard has a fair acces to lascannons, even twin-linked ones. The HRR is kind of a like watered down Lascannon.


...and I wish I had all the pieplates.Lascannons, outside of Vendettas, are actually one of the IG's most cost inefficient investments, and when it comes to infantry platforms for them are downright awful (Ld7, vulnerable to S6 ID, etc.). Odd, but yeah, IG don't do infantry based long range AT very well.

ehlijen
10-05-2013, 21:19
I don't play Tau.
Tau have 2 long range options against AV14, Riptides overcharging either main weapons and Hammerheads. 9 Broadsides with HRR inflicting 1 hullpoint, not counting cover is not even worth mentioning in the context. With rending, that would be a penetrating hit, which would at least do something.
To me, HRR being limited to glancing AV14 is as daft as the Nephilim having S6 AA missiles when the establised S of AA missiles is S7.

But maybe, that's all the Tau need at long range? Use mobility to get to side armour with seekers, use fusion and EMP and riptide smash. Zoom a razorshark behind those russes and open up with the tail turret.

The Tau are apparently not supposed to play a gunline anymore.



A HRR then and now is the same weapon. Clearly stat lines can change. The classic that did was the Starcannon which was hugely changed in many opinions. I don't think that Broadsides should be an auto choice but when the book is describing their ability to drop Imperial armour columns yet in gaming reality they would struggle to drop a single Russ. That to me just seems odd.


Background also changes. The bits about broadsides destroying armoured columns was 4th and 3rd ed background. And they're still easily capable of ripping chimera formations apart.


It's got one point less strength, no AP 1, and half the range. How the hell is the HYMP as good or better? It looks pretty damn incomparable.


Against the supposed claim that broadsides are now intented for AA duties, the sheer number of S7 shots is more likely to sandpaper a flyer to death than a single AP1 shot. Likewise against 3+ or 2+ saves, the number of wounds delivered result in more single unsaved wounds than from a railgun by mathhammer.

However, the additional range and increased lethality with precision shots (support system) as well as the ability to ID T4 does leave railguns with roles where it is better. It is also capable of penetrating AV13 (russ sides, many dreadnaughts, enemy hammerheads and predators/vindicators as well as quantum armour).

HRRs are markerlight intensive as they'll need to ignore cover for maximum benefit over HYMPs, but they have things they can do that missiles are not effective at.

MagicHat
10-05-2013, 22:12
But maybe, that's all the Tau need at long range? Use mobility to get to side armour with seekers, use fusion and EMP and riptide smash. Zoom a razorshark behind those russes and open up with the tail turret.

The Tau are apparently not supposed to play a gunline anymore.

Razorsharks relies on actually having room to get behind the Russ and can't do anything versus Land Raiders.
Seekers are 1-shot and not that likely to do much versus Russ sidearmour or anything against Land Raiders.
EMP and Riptide smash... Against a Russ? I struggle to see that happening with any frequency. Could work against Land Raiders, but the content will likely be happy to be in charge range of a Riptide.
So, fusions, which obviously works, as proven by all the Imperial armies.
Those Imperial armies also have lascannons available in pretty much every slot, and various CC ways, without being broken.


Background also changes. The bits about broadsides destroying armoured columns was 4th and 3rd ed background. And they're still easily capable of ripping chimera formations apart.


A few Broadside teams destroying entire Tank companies is 6th edition background as a common occurrence while fighting on open terrain.

Ssilmath
10-05-2013, 22:37
You know, people keep saying that Imperial armies have Lascannons in all slots, but how many times have you actually seen Lascannons used? They're extremely expensive, and you are far more likely to see Imperial Armies using Meltas or Multimeltas for their anti tank work.

Shadeseraph
10-05-2013, 23:43
But maybe, that's all the Tau need at long range? Use mobility to get to side armour with seekers, use fusion and EMP and riptide smash. Zoom a razorshark behind those russes and open up with the tail turret.

The Tau are apparently not supposed to play a gunline anymore.

This. And I'm so very happy this is the case. I'm quite happy we are a lot more flexible in the medium-short range.

I grew very, very tired of just spamming broadsides. HRR need to be brought on line with the HYMP to make them a worthy option, but they don't need to recover their status as "everything" killer.

EDIT: And, just to add something, deepstriking dual MP crisises behind the russes also works wonder, as do stealth suits.

ehlijen
11-05-2013, 00:14
Razorsharks relies on actually having room to get behind the Russ and can't do anything versus Land Raiders.

If he's with his butt to the board edge, stay out of his LOS. There should be some terrain in the way. Or use fusion and hammerheads.


Seekers are 1-shot and not that likely to do much versus Russ sidearmour or anything against Land Raiders.

As likely as S7 is vs AV12. But if you'd rather want rear armour, use a piranha and seeker from behind.


EMP and Riptide smash... Against a Russ? I struggle to see that happening with any frequency. Could work against Land Raiders, but the content will likely be happy to be in charge range of a Riptide.

So use CFD systems, supporting fire and/or retro thrusters (riptide can gain H+R if a commander with the thrusters joins it; he can also bring the railfist to help mout). Tau are not helpless babies in combat. They don't want to be there, but they have means of hitting back and getting out of it.


So, fusions, which obviously works, as proven by all the Imperial armies.
Those Imperial armies also have lascannons available in pretty much every slot, and various CC ways, without being broken.

And how many imperial armies do you see that spam lascannon? Even IG, who are if anything slower than Tau overall and hate combat vs most enemies just as much prefer meltaguns over lascannon.


A few Broadside teams destroying entire Tank companies is 6th edition background as a common occurrence while fighting on open terrain.

Huh, where is that? I'll have to look that up.

Shadeseraph
11-05-2013, 01:44
Huh, where is that? I'll have to look that up.

Page 42, column 2 paragraph 2: "In open terrain [...] a few Broadside Teams were sufficient to negate entire tank companies, quickly turning them into smoking wreckage."

From a fluffy point of view, they are expected to deal with tanks. They are quite good at taking medium-light vehicles, but they don't do much against heavier ones.

Not like I care, really.

Baaltor
11-05-2013, 02:10
Against the supposed claim that broadsides are now intented for AA duties, the sheer number of S7 shots is more likely to sandpaper a flyer to death than a single AP1 shot. Likewise against 3+ or 2+ saves, the number of wounds delivered result in more single unsaved wounds than from a railgun by mathhammer.


I don't care if they have 8 shots, twice the range is twice the range.

Voss
11-05-2013, 02:18
;)

I still cant decide if that or other weapon is better.. as str 8 lance will have a higher chance to pen av14 than str 6 melta lance.

:wtf:
Might want to check that. I'm pretty sure basic probability disagrees with you. 58% (7+ on 2d6) is a fair bit more likely than 33% (5+ on 1d6)



@OP. No. Broadsides are fine as is.

ehlijen
11-05-2013, 02:31
Page 42, column 2 paragraph 2: "In open terrain [...] a few Broadside Teams were sufficient to negate entire tank companies, quickly turning them into smoking wreckage."

From a fluffy point of view, they are expected to deal with tanks. They are quite good at taking medium-light vehicles, but they don't do much against heavier ones.

Not like I care, really.

Thanks. No mention what kind of tanks though. For all we know those were chimera companies. But yeah, bit odd that they kept that, what with leman russes outranging broadsides in open terrain now before you even get to the S8 vs AV14 question.


I don't care if they have 8 shots, twice the range is twice the range.

I likewise prefer the railguns (and not just because I only have old models), but there comes a point when more range becomes meaningless on the 40k tabletop. I think it is still a valid concern with HYMP, but once you get to about 40" or so, it really doesn't matter what the exact number is anymore; you'll be in range of pretty much anything you can see.

Shadeseraph
11-05-2013, 04:40
Thanks. No mention what kind of tanks though. For all we know those were chimera companies. But yeah, bit odd that they kept that, what with leman russes outranging broadsides in open terrain now before you even get to the S8 vs AV14 question.

Wut? Only the Vanquisher has longer range than the HRRsides, and not by much. All the other LR variants are shorter range than the HRR. Still, it's true "a few broadside teams" won't be doing a lot of damage to a column of Russes, though. Maybe the russes were out of ammo? or maybe Shadowsun outflanked the 'sides?

Grocklock
11-05-2013, 06:32
Let's take the idea that tau cannot deal with av 14 effectively. Big woop. How meany land raiders do u get in a standard game.

Also it's nice that the tau don't have the answer to everything.
Yes they lost the s10 but the army gain in so meany different areas, and so plays different.
I think if u ask any tau player which book is better they would say

Individual8580
11-05-2013, 10:01
Also it's nice that the tau don't have the answer to everything.

Tau does two things good: shooting and hiding their MEQs behind rocks. Several armies do the shooting better and many have their best weapons on platforms that are more survivable than Crisis Suits.

The S10 Broadsides were hardly an answer to everything but at least they had the kind of firepower that Tau really, really needs.

Grocklock
11-05-2013, 10:19
Tau does two things good: shooting and hiding their MEQs behind rocks. Several armies do the shooting better and many have their best weapons on platforms that are more survivable than Crisis Suits.

The S10 Broadsides were hardly an answer to everything but at least they had the kind of firepower that Tau really, really needs.

I wasn't saying that having a S10 gun for the xv88 was the be all and end. :)
More that tau not having a dedicated answer to av14 is an inbuilt weakness to the army. They still have a long range answer in the hammer head and short in the fusion gun

Xerkics
11-05-2013, 13:22
S8 AP1 would be good at about 2/3 of a broadside's points cost. But dropping just 5 points and going from S10 to S8 is just harsh. It's not like they were overpowered in the general sense before (as opposed to in the specific sense of being better than any other Tau unit, sure, but in the overall metagame, no).
Sorry what ? 9 Str10 ap1 guns which could split targets and kill all your armour on first turn while still in deployment zone weren't op? Smoke pot much?

At least now there is an incentive to take something else and other armies would still kill for them.

ehlijen
11-05-2013, 13:33
Wut? Only the Vanquisher has longer range than the HRRsides, and not by much. All the other LR variants are shorter range than the HRR. Still, it's true "a few broadside teams" won't be doing a lot of damage to a column of Russes, though. Maybe the russes were out of ammo? or maybe Shadowsun outflanked the 'sides?

You forget the standard russ, that and the vanq are both 20% longer ranged than the HRR, ie a fair bit. There is no way HRR broadsides could have beaten a regular russ company (standard is what, 1 vanq and 9 battle?) in open ground without the broadsides ambushing them, in which case flanks are open but the question of how has to be raised.

Fighting them to a standstill through ammo depletion on both sides is reasonable, though.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-05-2013, 16:44
9 Str10 ap1 guns which could split targets and kill all your armour on first turn while still in deployment zone weren't op?And we all know how much that dominated tournaments. :confused:

Retrospectus
11-05-2013, 20:24
And we all know how much that dominated tournaments. :confused:

omly because the rest of the army was lacking

Vaktathi
11-05-2013, 21:04
And we all know how much that dominated tournaments. :confused:To be fair, it was let down by the rest of the army being unable to capitalize on the swift destruction of enemy armor by the Broadsides, but that aside, it was pretty much the most powerful AT setup in the game.

Tastyfish
11-05-2013, 21:11
Let's take the idea that tau cannot deal with av 14 effectively. Big woop. How meany land raiders do u get in a standard game.

Also it's nice that the tau don't have the answer to everything.
Yes they lost the s10 but the army gain in so meany different areas, and so plays different.
I think if u ask any tau player which book is better they would say

It's not about not being able to deal with AV14 - it's working out a niche for a particular load out. Killing via glancing hits means that you can almost consider the two the same strength (as the HRR is very unlikely to get a kill through multiple hull points, so we're talking kill through penetrate for the HRR and kill through glance for the HYMP) - so the HYMP needs 3 'penetrates' to get a kill, whilst the HRR needs 2 (as it's a 50% chance of a kill through a penetrating hit).

However rather than having (3/2=) 1/5x times as many shots, the HYMP has 4x. Ignoring the fact that the HYMP can also get kills through penetrates on lighter vehicles. Against AV13 or less it's better.
This is just the simplified version, if you start working out all the probabilities of the ways the two units can kill a tank, things shift even further towards the HYMP.

The longer series of rolls (hit, penetrate, save, damage roll) really hurts the HRR suit. It's just very easy to forget there's more rolls after hitting, it's definitely a counter-intuitive choice.

ehlijen
12-05-2013, 00:01
It's not about not being able to deal with AV14 - it's working out a niche for a particular load out. Killing via glancing hits means that you can almost consider the two the same strength (as the HRR is very unlikely to get a kill through multiple hull points, so we're talking kill through penetrate for the HRR and kill through glance for the HYMP) - so the HYMP needs 3 'penetrates' to get a kill, whilst the HRR needs 2 (as it's a 50% chance of a kill through a penetrating hit).

However rather than having (3/2=) 1/5x times as many shots, the HYMP has 4x. Ignoring the fact that the HYMP can also get kills through penetrates on lighter vehicles. Against AV13 or less it's better.
This is just the simplified version, if you start working out all the probabilities of the ways the two units can kill a tank, things shift even further towards the HYMP.

The longer series of rolls (hit, penetrate, save, damage roll) really hurts the HRR suit. It's just very easy to forget there's more rolls after hitting, it's definitely a counter-intuitive choice.

That's only if you discount the debilitating nature of the other damage results a HRR might score. A HYMP will never shake or stun an AV13 target, will never rip a gun off, will never immobilise.

The railrifle is also better with precision shots (as any given precision hit is more lethal) and can ID T4 targets (warriors, raveners, characters they snipe). It's not outranged by lascannon or darklance on nightshield platforms. With two markerlight hits it can be better against fortuned targets. It's better at wounding some MCs that roll lucky on their Iron Arm biomancy power.

MagicHat
12-05-2013, 00:34
If he's with his butt to the board edge, stay out of his LOS. There should be some terrain in the way. Or use fusion and hammerheads.

Doesn't need to be with the butt to the boardedge, as long as the back of the LR is 36" from the Tau players boardhalf.

[QUOTE=ehlijen;6762450]As likely as S7 is vs AV12. But if you'd rather want rear armour, use a piranha and seeker from behind.

Or S9 vs AV14, which as you yourself notes is not a good idea. S7 have quantity of fire to threaten AV12, seekers don't versus AV13.
If a Tau player manage to manouver a Piranha behind a Leman Russ, I guess the IG player deserves losing his tank, although at that point a fusion blaster on the Piranha would probably deal more damage.


So use CFD systems, supporting fire and/or retro thrusters (riptide can gain H+R if a commander with the thrusters joins it; he can also bring the railfist to help mout). Tau are not helpless babies in combat. They don't want to be there, but they have means of hitting back and getting out of it.

True, Tau suits can and should engage non-melee enemies if they have thrusters, even with the 50-66% chance of it working. They should not charge a Riptide and a commander into the vehicle carrying the enemy CC specialists however, when said CC specialists will be able to assault next turn. If it is TH/SS terminator (which, lets face it, it will probably be), none of your suggestions to counter it are worth much.
Hell, it doesn't even seem that likely to wreck/explode a land raider. I get it to 1 pen, with a 33% of explode.
A Riptide + commander could bring three accurate fusion guns, shoot the LR and jet pack away/assault it as a last ditch effort instead.


And how many imperial armies do you see that spam lascannon? Even IG, who are if anything slower than Tau overall and hate combat vs most enemies just as much prefer meltaguns over lascannon.

True. Rending would patently not be broken, merely a last ditch effort. I am not sure about S9 though.

Bobthemime
12-05-2013, 01:21
That's only if you discount the debilitating nature of the other damage results a HRR might score. A HYMP will never shake or stun an AV13 target, will never rip a gun off, will never immobilise.

The railrifle is also better with precision shots (as any given precision hit is more lethal) and can ID T4 targets (warriors, raveners, characters they snipe). It's not outranged by lascannon or darklance on nightshield platforms. With two markerlight hits it can be better against fortuned targets. It's better at wounding some MCs that roll lucky on their Iron Arm biomancy power.

exactly the reason why in my 3 broadside team, i will get once i can afford too, is having the HRR on the 'vre and HYMP on the rest.. chuck skyfire on them and TL on HRR

aim
12-05-2013, 02:18
The thing that upsets me about the new broadsides, is that the new HRRsides look awesome.... but I already have a load of old Broadsides and theres no reason to take the HRR over HYMP. But the HYMPsides look nowhere near as cool. Thus, no new broadsides for me.

ehlijen
12-05-2013, 06:11
Doesn't need to be with the butt to the boardedge, as long as the back of the LR is 36" from the Tau players boardhalf.

Then set it up to do it next turn.


Or S9 vs AV14, which as you yourself notes is not a good idea. S7 have quantity of fire to threaten AV12, seekers don't versus AV13.

Seekers vs AV13 are exactly as good as the requested S9 HRR would be against AV14.


If a Tau player manage to manouver a Piranha behind a Leman Russ, I guess the IG player deserves losing his tank, although at that point a fusion blaster on the Piranha would probably deal more damage.

The 'if x happens he deserved to lose his unit' line is terribly annoying. This is a game where to players pit their skills against each other. There will be times when one outthinks the other. Dismissing all such moments as incompetence on one side is both disrespectful of the achievement of the other and does not properly acknowledge that you don't always get to have a perfect game.

And if you don't see how a vehicle that can move 30" a turn with a 3+ cover save could possibly end up behind an enemy unit, I say you don't desrve to get better railsides as compensation :p


True, Tau suits can and should engage non-melee enemies if they have thrusters, even with the 50-66% chance of it working. They should not charge a Riptide and a commander into the vehicle carrying the enemy CC specialists however, when said CC specialists will be able to assault next turn. If it is TH/SS terminator (which, lets face it, it will probably be), none of your suggestions to counter it are worth much.

Keep some drones around so H+R works better. And if it's either charging the hammernator ride now and have your toughest unit (possibly with a 3++ save) take the hits or have that LR go whereever it wants and murdernating whatever it wants in their next turn, I pick option one. Sometimes damage mitigation is part of the plan (and no, in a game where equal forces meet, there is no 'deserves to lose' nonsense). Dicating what the enemy kills where can be just as important as killing him back.


Hell, it doesn't even seem that likely to wreck/explode a land raider. I get it to 1 pen, with a 33% of explode.
A Riptide + commander could bring three accurate fusion guns, shoot the LR and jet pack away/assault it as a last ditch effort instead.

So don't do it if it's on full HP. But it is a valid way to remove the last 1 or 2 HP.





True. Rending would patently not be broken, merely a last ditch effort. I am not sure about S9 though.

My point was that a boost to HRR isn't needed in light of the existing Tau AT options, because even in armies that have what you're asking for, they don't get used a lot.

aim
12-05-2013, 10:15
My point was that a boost to HRR isn't needed in light of the existing Tau AT options, because even in armies that have what you're asking for, they don't get used a lot.

As much as I agree with you that the rail guns don't need restoring to 10/1. The point others are making that you either don't get or are wilfully ignoring is this.

The Tau army is not the same as the other armies in the game. They do not have anything that should be allowed anywhere near what is going to pile out of that AV14 Landraider when it dies. This means that the only viable options available to Tau to kill a Landraider reliably that are being listed result in a 90% chance that whatever you use to do it then gets killed to death by it's contents and is therefore a suicide squad. May not seem like a problem to you, but when the options are mainly very fragile scoring shooty units (in a shooty army, where the chances of them reaching the vehicle early enough to stop the disembarking crew to be spitting distance from your lines, in enough strength to still kill it is slim to none) or very expensive, very fragile special weapons platforms which are only available in very limited numbers to the army and are the only real access to said special weapons, it is.

Hence people thinking that the Tau should have a viable, reliable long range way to deal with it, which the hammerhead is not and the old broadside teams were too much. It needs more thought and balance than "make broadsides silly again" or "sacrifice expensive/important game winning units to kill it", which are currently the two options being presented here.

ehlijen
12-05-2013, 10:28
As much as I agree with you that the rail guns don't need restoring to 10/1. The point others are making that you either don't get or are wilfully ignoring is this.

The Tau army is not the same as the other armies in the game. They do not have anything that should be allowed anywhere near what is going to pile out of that AV14 Landraider when it dies.

It's better to be near that thing with one unit if that means it dies furhter away from all your other units.
I never said CC was the best option, just that it is one. And out of all Tau units, a riptide might actually take a few hammernators with it.


This means that the only viable options available to Tau to kill a Landraider reliably that are being listed result in a 90% chance that whatever you use to do it then gets killed to death by it's contents and is therefore a suicide squad.

If you want to kill it from futher than 9" away, there are hammerheads. Anything else leaves you at risk, yes. And for 250 points a landraider should be tough to kill.


May not seem like a problem to you, but when the options are mainly very fragile scoring shooty units (in a shooty army, where the chances of them reaching the vehicle early enough to stop the disembarking shot to be spitting distance from your lines, in enough strength to still kill it is slim to none) or very expensive, very fragile special weapons platforms which are only available in very limited numbers to the army and are the only real access to said special weapons, it is.

There are more options than that.
There are infiltrating suits with fusion blasters. There are non scoring, scouting infantry units with EMP grenades. There are deepstriking battlesuits.

And what exactly are 'very fragile special weapon platforms'? Crisis suits are two wound marines that can have FnP or 4++. If that's fragile, you need to reassess what that word means.


Hence people thinking that the Tau should have a viable, reliable long range way to deal with it, which the hammerhead is not and the old broadside teams were too much. It needs more thought and balance than "make broadsides silly again" or "sacrifice expensive/important game winning units to kill it", which are currently the two options being presented here.

What exactly is wrong with the hammerhead? It's got exactly the gun you're asking for at half the price or so of a landraider. You can even bump it to BS10 with markerlights now if you really fear missing that much.

There isn't meant to be a way to take out landraiders before they move more reliable than hammerheads.

Tastyfish
12-05-2013, 11:57
That's only if you discount the debilitating nature of the other damage results a HRR might score. A HYMP will never shake or stun an AV13 target, will never rip a gun off, will never immobilise.

The railrifle is also better with precision shots (as any given precision hit is more lethal) and can ID T4 targets (warriors, raveners, characters they snipe). It's not outranged by lascannon or darklance on nightshield platforms. With two markerlight hits it can be better against fortuned targets. It's better at wounding some MCs that roll lucky on their Iron Arm biomancy power.

It's not really that much better with precision hits - a precision hit is better if you get one, but the fact you've got a shockingly low chance of actually scoring one against someone worth ID'ing with S8 and against MEq's you're four times as likely to get a precision hit with the HYMP (and only 3 times less likely to wound) means that again, the HYMP has the advantage here.

Stunning an AV13 vehicle is a fair point, but that's quite a minor thing compared to the cost of the squad. A HRR suit has a 10% of causing some damage that will stop the tank firing (anything other than immoblised), but the HYMP has a 41% chance of causing a glancing hit. A single HYMP suit is more likely to cause a glancing hit, than a whole squad of HRR suits are to get a penetrating hit that shuts down shooting.

aim
12-05-2013, 13:26
It's better to be near that thing with one unit if that means it dies furhter away from all your other units.
I never said CC was the best option, just that it is one. And out of all Tau units, a riptide might actually take a few hammernators with it.

If you want to kill it from futher than 9" away, there are hammerheads. Anything else leaves you at risk, yes. And for 250 points a landraider should be tough to kill.

There are more options than that.
There are infiltrating suits with fusion blasters. There are non scoring, scouting infantry units with EMP grenades. There are deepstriking battlesuits.

And what exactly are 'very fragile special weapon platforms'? Crisis suits are two wound marines that can have FnP or 4++. If that's fragile, you need to reassess what that word means.


What exactly is wrong with the hammerhead? It's got exactly the gun you're asking for at half the price or so of a landraider. You can even bump it to BS10 with markerlights now if you really fear missing that much.

There isn't meant to be a way to take out landraiders before they move more reliable than hammerheads.

Then in that case, give every army a unit that costs 250 points and greatly helps them with their style of play that other armies have to sacrifice expensive/important units to whilst also sacrificing lot shots for nothing that could be spent elsewhere.

Maybe its not the broadsides that need fixing after all. Then again, I'm sure imperial players would have all their toys out of the pram if other armies had a landraider equivalent, or if their landraiders got nerfed to be handle-able without wasting units on suicide missions and a huge weight of fire. You can't really have your cake and eat it. The hammerhead has one shot, is fragile, and is far too down to chance wether it actually does and meaningful damage or not regardless of if it has BS 10. Its not just about the damage that gets done by the squad inside that one model that is at issue here. Its the huge amount of other resources that end up being spent trying to deal with it that could be focussed elsewhere on the army, the HS slot that is wasted on a tank that frankly is not worth the points or slot once that AV14 is gone or isn't there to start with and pretending that the options available to Tau are just as viable as they are to other races doesn't change the fact that the Tau should not ever be that close to anything containing melee troops. Ever. Other armies have CQC options, the Tau do not, that's fine by me, its a design choice and it makes them interesting, however if it is going to be a hard line that they are missing a very important aspect from their army list, they need something that allows them to deal (reliably) with things like AV14 without being forced into H2H range. The Railhead does not fall into this category, because it is not even close to reliable.

Bobthemime
12-05-2013, 13:55
Then in that case, give every army a unit that costs 250 points and greatly helps them with their style of play that other armies have to sacrifice expensive/important units to whilst also sacrificing lot shots for nothing that could be spent elsewhere.

they did. I believe its called Allies. maybe you have heard of them?


they need something that allows them to deal (reliably) with things like AV14 without being forced into H2H range. The Railhead does not fall into this category, because it is not even close to reliable.

they have alot more going for them in the Anti-Tank than can be said for most imperial armies.

and alot more geared to take out av 13-14 too..

2 TL-LC on a LR is out gunned, out ranged and out priced by the RailHead. It will take 2 turns of shooting to take out av 14, which also takes a big chunk of points out of small point games, before the LR can even get in range to kill the RailHead.

chuck in Farsightbomb and you have lost your LR in one shooting phase, to a unit you will be hard pressed to take down afterward. At least too busy to focus on the RailHead.

Playing this game in a vacuum only works in a vacuum, chuck in human thought and reactions.. and things can go wrong very fast.

Ssilmath
12-05-2013, 14:51
Holy crap people, have you ever considered just shooting the models that come spilling out of a Land Raider after you kill the tank? You know, use Fusion Suits or Piranhas to kill it and then then pour two or three squads of Fire Warriors into the Hammernators, maybe add in a double Plasma unit or some Markerlights to assist in the killing. This is tactics 101.

Bobthemime
12-05-2013, 15:13
Holy crap people, have you ever considered just shooting the models that come spilling out of a Land Raider after you kill the tank? You know, use Fusion Suits or Piranhas to kill it and then then pour two or three squads of Fire Warriors into the Hammernators, maybe add in a double Plasma unit or some Markerlights to assist in the killing. This is tactics 101.

aimed at me or aim?

aim
12-05-2013, 16:21
Holy crap people, have you ever considered just shooting the models that come spilling out of a Land Raider after you kill the tank? You know, use Fusion Suits or Piranhas to kill it and then then pour two or three squads of Fire Warriors into the Hammernators, maybe add in a double Plasma unit or some Markerlights to assist in the killing. This is tactics 101.

I hope the irony of this isn't lost on everyone. But apparently tactics 101 is "focus all / most of your guns on one unit for 2 turns" and that will solve the problem, after all, forget about the rest of the army that is now sat in your face because you've spent everything you have on killing the tank and 5 man squad inside, no issues there at all.

The thing I find most ridiculous about this is that I actually don't think that the new Broadsides need changing (aside from the HYMP option being far superior to the HRR, but that's an internal balance thing). I'm just pointing out that acting like the Tau can deal with AV14 like every other army is delusional considering they have zero H2H ability with any units at all, never mind the expensive, elite ones people are tossing out the idea to sacrifice to kill a tank and (possibly if you are lucky) 5 man squad.

Ssilmath
12-05-2013, 16:35
I hope the irony of this isn't lost on everyone. But apparently tactics 101 is "focus all / most of your guns on one unit for 2 turns" and that will solve the problem, after all, forget about the rest of the army that is now sat in your face because you've spent everything you have on killing the tank and 5 man squad inside, no issues there at all.

The thing I find most ridiculous about this is that I actually don't think that the new Broadsides need changing (aside from the HYMP option being far superior to the HRR, but that's an internal balance thing). I'm just pointing out that acting like the Tau can deal with AV14 like every other army is delusional considering they have zero H2H ability with any units at all, never mind the expensive, elite ones people are tossing out the idea to sacrifice to kill a tank and (possibly if you are lucky) 5 man squad.

Well, first off, I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect it to take about 1000 points to wipe out 500 points worth of models that are probably the lynchpin of their entire force. Second, who said anything about using an entire army to kill them? Three Fusion Suits or Piranhas, 2 or three Fire Warriors Squads, and a Pathfinder squad. That shouldn't take two turns, and if it does then you probably need to reconsider your list. You can also spend the first turn of the game killing the enemy that is not in a Land Raider. No, Land Raiders and the Hammernators are not a major threat to the Tau. Use your mobility, use your force multipliers, use basic gaming tactics and you'll be fine.

Retrospectus
12-05-2013, 18:52
Heres a question for all the tau players out there. How many of you are struggling with AV 14? (or 13)

By that I mean actually struggled in a game rather than theory

Bobthemime
12-05-2013, 19:55
Heres a question for all the tau players out there. How many of you are struggling with AV 14? (or 13)

By that I mean actually struggled in a game rather than theory

apparently Aim has.

unless he is only theory crafting.

With my tau, i only struggled with av14 because i didnt expect to face one in a pick up game, as to be fair they are rare to see with the edition change, so none of my FW had EMP, no fusions in the list and only Missileheads.

but tbh he only killed a 2 MissileSides with it. If he was sensible he would have used that tank to his advantage.

Aluinn
12-05-2013, 21:51
The thing that upsets me about the new broadsides, is that the new HRRsides look awesome.... but I already have a load of old Broadsides and theres no reason to take the HRR over HYMP. But the HYMPsides look nowhere near as cool. Thus, no new broadsides for me.

I think AP1 is grossly underestimated. Going from a 1/6 chance to destroy on a Pen to a 1/2 chance is a pretty big difference. Granted, you might not penetrate, so it is generally the case that HYMP are more consistent, but as much as you can be unlucky with the rail rifle, you can also be lucky and blow up an AV12 vehicle on your first shot ... then have "extra" shots to fire at other things from other Broadsides (if you have multiples and they're in as many separate units as possible, which IMO is the way to go). Meanwhile the HYMPs just have to dutifully chip away; they're predictable, and I understand why, competitively, that is something of an advantage in itself, but they're also almost never going to perform exceptionally well.

This may just be because I'm an older player and accustomed to dealing with armor without Hull Point mechanics, but the potential to one-shot things shouldn't be overlooked. When it happens it gains you some pretty huge advantages for that shooting phase, especially in a Tau army.

For odds vs. AV12 for example:

HYMP -> 4 shots -> 3 hits -> 1 glance/pen (50% chance pen), but any penetration is unlikely to do much, so net result is probably a very consistent 1 HP removed

HRR -> 1 shot -> 0.75 hits -> 37.5% chance to glance, BUT .25 pens -> .125 destroyed, ~.21 permanent damage results overall

Over the course of a game, 12.5% chance to outright ace a vehicle means you're pretty likely, for any given Broadside, to do it once, if firing every turn. If you take, say, 3 teams of 1, and that happens, you've essentially got yourself two extra shots at some other thing(s), whilst the HYMP suits would have to continue focusing the same target to remove 3 HP and wreck it almost every time.

There are also some things ("pure" transports like the Rhino, gun tanks relying on a single powerful weapon) where either Immobilized or Weapon Destroyed will be nearly as good as wrecking the vehicle.

Then it should also be considered that missile drones are a big draw of the Broadside and your choice of main weapon has no impact on them at all.

EDIT: Oh, and then there are 2+ or 3+ save MCs to think about, as well as the T4 2+ save character in front of a unit that someone might try to use to soak wounds, and indeed multi-wound T4 anything.

ehlijen
12-05-2013, 22:58
Then in that case, give every army a unit that costs 250 points and greatly helps them with their style of play that other armies have to sacrifice expensive/important units to whilst also sacrificing lot shots for nothing that could be spent elsewhere.

Riptide? In a game with evenly matched forces, you're supposed to have to risk and sacrifice something in order to achieve victory. The trick comes in knowing what to risk and sacrifice when and where.


Maybe its not the broadsides that need fixing after all. Then again, I'm sure imperial players would have all their toys out of the pram if other armies had a landraider equivalent, or if their landraiders got nerfed to be handle-able without wasting units on suicide missions and a huge weight of fire. You can't really have your cake and eat it.

Imperial armies still have to handle enemy land raiders and monoliths. I don't hear too much screaming.


The hammerhead has one shot, is fragile, and is far too down to chance wether it actually does and meaningful damage or not regardless of if it has BS 10.

Did a dice kill your father? All the big AT guns only have one shot. Few can be made as accurate as the Railgun. And if it hits it has a 25% chance to outright kill the landraider. That's about as good as you get at ranges greater than 12.
And a hammerhead is AV13 with access to a 4+ save just for moving. That's pretty tough.



Its not just about the damage that gets done by the squad inside that one model that is at issue here. Its the huge amount of other resources that end up being spent trying to deal with it that could be focussed elsewhere on the army, the HS slot that is wasted on a tank that frankly is not worth the points or slot once that AV14 is gone or isn't there to start with and pretending that the options available to Tau are just as viable as they are to other races doesn't change the fact that the Tau should not ever be that close to anything containing melee troops. Ever. Other armies have CQC options, the Tau do not, that's fine by me, its a design choice and it makes them interesting, however if it is going to be a hard line that they are missing a very important aspect from their army list, they need something that allows them to deal (reliably) with things like AV14 without being forced into H2H range. The Railhead does not fall into this category, because it is not even close to reliable.

For starters, if you've got 33% of the enemy army in one lump, it's supposed to be hard to take that out. For two, Tau are able to survive in close range environments now. They have above average resilience (if seen accross armies available, not armies actually played), superior overwatch and various damage/charge range mitigation tools.
And all Tau lack is AP in combat. They have the A and the S to hurt.
And again, try the hammerhead. It's pretty good at what it does.

I hope the irony of this isn't lost on everyone. But apparently tactics 101 is "focus all / most of your guns on one unit for 2 turns" and that will solve the problem, after all, forget about the rest of the army that is now sat in your face because you've spent everything you have on killing the tank and 5 man squad inside, no issues there at all.

That's because force concentration is how any conflict is won. You change the equation so that in any exchange, you are the stronger one.
Ever heard of the example with the 10 soldiers vs 10 soldiers, each has 10hp and does 1 damage? The side that focuses all 10 of theirs on one of the enemy each turn wins.
If you spend your whole shooting phase taking out 1 landraider before it's cargo is close, you achieved a good deal. Yes, you ignored the rest of his army, but knowing what to focus on and what to pass over for later is another important skill in wargaming.


The thing I find most ridiculous about this is that I actually don't think that the new Broadsides need changing (aside from the HYMP option being far superior to the HRR, but that's an internal balance thing). I'm just pointing out that acting like the Tau can deal with AV14 like every other army is delusional considering they have zero H2H ability with any units at all, never mind the expensive, elite ones people are tossing out the idea to sacrifice to kill a tank and (possibly if you are lucky) 5 man squad.

Tau do not have zero close combat ability. For starters, the riptide is a MC and thus AP2 (and will strike before hammernators). But all the suits have good S and A values. And you need to consider supporting fire as an opportunity to fire some more, not as a last ditch defence.

Xerkics
13-05-2013, 02:18
Broadsides kinda spoiled tau players in previous book to the point youd see nothing but broadsides in heavy slot.As is Hammerhead is greatly underestimated . For its points its one of the best tanks in the game maybe even close 2nd behind standard leman russ.

Charistoph
13-05-2013, 03:12
The only real downside to the Hammerhead compared to a lot of other 'main' tanks is that many of the others can add more AT guns than just the main gun to the hull. The only other AT weapons a 'Head can carry are 2 One Shots.

Could you imagine if you could put 2 Fusion Blasters or a TL Fusion Blaster in place of the Gun Drones? Or Missile Pods?

ehlijen
13-05-2013, 03:40
The only real downside to the Hammerhead compared to a lot of other 'main' tanks is that many of the others can add more AT guns than just the main gun to the hull. The only other AT weapons a 'Head can carry are 2 One Shots.

Could you imagine if you could put 2 Fusion Blasters or a TL Fusion Blaster in place of the Gun Drones? Or Missile Pods?

Wouldn't that just encourage Hammerheads to sit still and not gain a jink save?

MajorWesJanson
13-05-2013, 03:55
There is one thing that Railsides have that Missiletides don't: Table presence. 36" for the missiles is a good range and can do a lot of damage, but the presence of a few Railsides sitting along the back edge with a good line of sight and either interceptor or skyfire can impact the enemies thinking.


The only real downside to the Hammerhead compared to a lot of other 'main' tanks is that many of the others can add more AT guns than just the main gun to the hull. The only other AT weapons a 'Head can carry are 2 One Shots.

Could you imagine if you could put 2 Fusion Blasters or a TL Fusion Blaster in place of the Gun Drones? Or Missile Pods?

IF we are wishlisting for upgrades to the hammerhead, I'd love to see it pick up a networked markerlight in the nose. And a return of vehicle Target Locks and Multitrackers, even for 10 points each.

Zustiur
13-05-2013, 04:55
Then set it up to do it next turn.

Seekers vs AV13 are exactly as good as the requested S9 HRR would be against AV14.


No they're not. Seeker missiles are not AP1. It takes 3 penetrating missiles to match one penetrating S 9 HRR.

Assuming my mental maths is any good.


Sent via Tapatalk 2

Individual8580
13-05-2013, 13:02
Broadsides kinda spoiled tau players in previous book to the point youd see nothing but broadsides in heavy slot.As is Hammerhead is greatly underestimated . For its points its one of the best tanks in the game maybe even close 2nd behind standard leman russ.

I'd give my pancreas to have Leman Russes in the Tau codex.

I'd also give them to see Russes reduced to Hammerheads in the next Guard dex.

Charistoph
13-05-2013, 15:06
I'd give my pancreas to have Leman Russes in the Tau codex.

I'd also give them to see Russes reduced to Hammerheads in the next Guard dex.

Wouldn't be hard. Just remove the sponson options, the option to change the Hull-mounted weapon, drop the Armour by one point on all sides, drop the Pintle-mounts, remove the squadron option, and add the ability to take a second HK Missile. There we go, roughly the same firepower and defense. Except for the Jink thing.

Ssilmath
13-05-2013, 15:22
Wouldn't be hard. Just remove the sponson options, the option to change the Hull-mounted weapon, drop the Armour by one point on all sides, drop the Pintle-mounts, remove the squadron option, and add the ability to take a second HK Missile. There we go, roughly the same firepower and defense. Except for the Jink thing.

As well as a 25-50 point price drops, I'm assuming. Oh, and native BS 4, and several units who can improve that Ballistic Skill or ignore cover saves against their guns. And a Stealth option too?

Or just leave things as they are and understand that different codexes have different units for a reason.

Luffwaffle
13-05-2013, 15:28
Wouldn't be hard. Just remove the sponson options, the option to change the Hull-mounted weapon, drop the Armour by one point on all sides, drop the Pintle-mounts, remove the squadron option, and add the ability to take a second HK Missile. There we go, roughly the same firepower and defense. Except for the Jink thing.
Except for the str 10 ap 1 gun and the 4+ cover save. Oh and the ability to use marker lights.

I'd give a kidney to have the hammerhead. Grass is always greener I guess.

Retrospectus
13-05-2013, 16:25
I'd give several peoples kidneys to have support fire for my guardsmen. every codex has something someone else wants

Konovalev
13-05-2013, 16:26
And a Stealth option too?
You mean like camo netting?

Vaktathi
13-05-2013, 16:30
I'd give my pancreas to have Leman Russes in the Tau codex. And many IG players would love the option to take Hammerheads, Hammerheads are better than most Russ variants, certainly in terms of 'all comers'-ness for a single build



I'd also give them to see Russes reduced to Hammerheads in the next Guard dex.And then their existence on tables would quite literally extirpated.


As is, the Hammerhead is one of the best tanks in the game, probably the best all-around MBT for the points invested. It can snipe AV14 at long range, it can engage hordes at long range, it has useful secondary weapon systems, it can roll around with constant 4+ cover save as long as it moves, and it can do all that for the price of a single barebones LRBT whose only real advantage is AP3 on its blast (as AV13 with a 4+ save is going to prove a match for naked AV14, if not better, S10 AP1 BS4 is better than S8 Ap3 ordnance Bs3 blast for killing tanks, and against 2+sv troops and 4+/5+/6+sv troops both their blasts will generally be identical, etc)

Luffwaffle
13-05-2013, 17:10
You mean like camo netting?
Stealth + jink is waayyyyyy better than camo netting.

Vaktathi
13-05-2013, 17:14
Also camo-netting is hilariously expensive and only works if you remain stationary.

Charistoph
13-05-2013, 17:28
Not that any of this really improves the HRR.

The scary part is that any suggestion to improving the HRR with a USR should mean that the RG on the Hammerhead should receive the same USR. So aside from returning it back to being a full-sized Railgun, what's a way to improve it in a way that doesn't require a USR that would make the Hammerhead's even nastier? Even better if it can be implemented in a FAQ.

Konovalev
13-05-2013, 17:39
Stealth + jink is waayyyyyy better than camo netting.

And S10 pieplates are waaayyyyyy better than a single S10 shot.

MajorWesJanson
13-05-2013, 17:39
Not that any of this really improves the HRR.

The scary part is that any suggestion to improving the HRR with a USR should mean that the RG on the Hammerhead should receive the same USR. So aside from returning it back to being a full-sized Railgun, what's a way to improve it in a way that doesn't require a USR that would make the Hammerhead's even nastier? Even better if it can be implemented in a FAQ.

The only thing I can think of that fits those requirements: Replace Twin-Linked with Heavy 2.

Luffwaffle
13-05-2013, 17:45
And S10 pieplates are waaayyyyyy better than a single S10 shot.
You left out the 24" range part bro, putting the leman russ within assault distance which is never a good thing.

The hammerhead is one of the best tanks in the game. The fact that the old broadsides were way better and no one in their right mind would take a HH over a BS tells me they needed to be toned down, or the HH needed to be toned up. GW took the town down route and thats the end of that.

Vaktathi
13-05-2013, 17:54
And S10 pieplates are waaayyyyyy better than a single S10 shot.And if we're talking Leman Russ tanks here still (in this case, the Demolisher), that blast has lower AP (matters when hunting tanks), only 1/3rd the range along with a lower BS, cannot utilize secondary weaponry anywhere near as well (thanks to Lumbering Behemoth change) and costs 33% more than a Hammerhead does (before any upgrades on either).

Konovalev
13-05-2013, 18:00
You left out the 24" range part bro, putting the leman russ within assault distance which is never a good thing.
24 is only assault range for units that can move 12", and even then assumes a perfect assault roll. Even in assault that russ will have rear AV11. Which makes it much tougher. 24+6" is a lot further than you might think, especially on a vehicle that tough.


And if we're talking Leman Russ tanks here still (in this case, the Demolisher), that blast has lower AP (matters when hunting tanks), only 1/3rd the range along with a lower BS, cannot utilize secondary weaponry anywhere near as well (thanks to Lumbering Behemoth change) and costs 33% more than a Hammerhead does (before any upgrades on either).
Sounds like the hammerhead and leman russ are not directly comparable to me. Speaking of secondary weaponry though, S5 shots are rather useless against tanks.

Luffwaffle
13-05-2013, 18:12
24 is only assault range for units that can move 12", and even then assumes a perfect assault roll. Even in assault that russ will have rear AV11. Which makes it much tougher. 24+6" is a lot further than you might think, especially on a vehicle that tough.

Sounds like the hammerhead and leman russ are not directly comparable to me. Speaking of secondary weaponry though, S5 shots are rather useless against tanks.

We could spend all day cherry picking stats between the leman russ and Hammerhead. So in the interest of not derailing the thread either make a new thread or drop it.

And yes. The Leman Russ and the Hammerhead aren't really comparable. Especially the demolisher as it serves a entirely different role.

Konovalev
13-05-2013, 18:56
Here you go. Sniper teams do anti-TEQ, and anti-MC better. Highyield missile pods do AT and AA better. And the Hammerhead does AT and anti-infantry better. HRR has no role for which another heavy support choice or weapon doesn't have superior performance. Heavy Rail Rifles are a legacy option, and obsolete for Tau. So lets keep out the "I wish X army had heavy rail rifles" then because it doesn't add anything. The thread assumes HRR need a fix, so let's not derail into trying to justify that with other codexes.

Vaktathi
13-05-2013, 20:44
The HRR has increased S, AP, and a much greater range than the HYMP at the cost of RoF. At optimal ranged the HYMP will generally produce better results against non 2+sv infantry and AV12 and lower vehicles, but against AV13/14 (decent against AV13, not so great against 14 but can at least glance it), 2+sv infantry and models at greater than 36" range (which often is a real concern), as well as multiwound T4 models, the HRR is superior.

For most uses the HYMP will be the obvious choice but I don't think there's anything wrong with the HRR, it's a *different* option. You may deploy HRR units in each corner so they can strike across the board while you put the HYMP unit in the center of your line where range is less of an issue, etc.

Bobthemime
13-05-2013, 21:11
The HRR has increased S, AP, and a much greater range than the HYMP at the cost of RoF. At optimal ranged the HYMP will generally produce better results against non 2+sv infantry and AV12 and lower vehicles, but against AV13/14 (decent against AV13, not so great against 14 but can at least glance it), 2+sv infantry and models at greater than 36" range (which often is a real concern), as well as multiwound T4 models, the HRR is superior.

For most uses the HYMP will be the obvious choice but I don't think there's anything wrong with the HRR, it's a *different* option. You may deploy HRR units in each corner so they can strike across the board while you put the HYMP unit in the center of your line where range is less of an issue, etc.

as i said earlier on.. i have 1 HRR and 2 HYMP in my squads.. HRR on the 'vre for precision shots, and he has TL for when i want to pop transports from further away, while my HYMP deal with closer threats.

There is nothing wrong with str 8 ap1.

There was something wrong with str 10 ap1

ehlijen
14-05-2013, 00:41
I'd rather see the HYMP dropped to heavy 3 than boost the HRR, if any change has to happen. But really, I don't see a big problem with either weapon.

Bartali
14-05-2013, 08:02
....I'm just pointing out that acting like the Tau can deal with AV14 like every other army is delusional considering they have zero H2H ability with any units at all, never mind the expensive, elite ones people are tossing out the idea to sacrifice to kill a tank and (possibly if you are lucky) 5 man squad.

Sorry to single you out here, but the majority of Warseer posters need to stop pretending allies don't exist. Allies can give Tau assault units, good scoring units, alternatives for AV14 etc.

aim
14-05-2013, 09:54
Sorry to single you out here, but the majority of Warseer posters need to stop pretending allies don't exist. Allies can give Tau assault units, good scoring units, alternatives for AV14 etc.

Sorry to single you out, but the majority of Warseer need to stop pretending that being forced to buy units from an army you have no interest in, that don't mesh with the look of your chosen force in order to 'band-aid' broken areas of a codex you have paid 30 for is actually acceptable as a solution in anyones eyes except GW's shareholders.

Tastyfish
14-05-2013, 10:25
The HRR has increased S, AP, and a much greater range than the HYMP at the cost of RoF. At optimal ranged the HYMP will generally produce better results against non 2+sv infantry and AV12 and lower vehicles, but against AV13/14 (decent against AV13, not so great against 14 but can at least glance it), 2+sv infantry and models at greater than 36" range (which often is a real concern), as well as multiwound T4 models, the HRR is superior.

For most uses the HYMP will be the obvious choice but I don't think there's anything wrong with the HRR, it's a *different* option. You may deploy HRR units in each corner so they can strike across the board while you put the HYMP unit in the center of your line where range is less of an issue, etc.

HRR is only superior against non-TEq 2+ saves. If you've got the 5+ invulnerable save then they are equal again.
Against AV13, the HYMP squad is factionally better - having a 18.1% chance of killing a 3 HP AV13 vehicle via glancing hits compared to the HRR having a 17.9% chance of killing the same vehicle through hull points or a penetrating hit.

Though having a HRR with a target lock (I think I'd have the team leader being a HYMP suit, you as'll get more benefit from precision shots there) in a squad of HYMP broadsides seems reasonable. You're sacrificing some power, but not a lot (roughly half a suit) but then getting the ability to strike at range with a 25% chance of disabling or destroying an AV10 vehicle.

Bartali
14-05-2013, 11:14
Sorry to single you out, but the majority of Warseer need to stop pretending that being forced to buy units from an army you have no interest in, that don't mesh with the look of your chosen force in order to 'band-aid' broken areas of a codex you have paid 30 for is actually acceptable as a solution in anyones eyes except GW's shareholders.

That's 6th ed.... If you don't like it, that's fine, but then don't complain if your fluffy army has holes.

aim
14-05-2013, 11:27
That's 6th ed.... If you don't like it, that's fine, but then don't complain if your fluffy army has holes.

I'm not complaining that my fluffy army has holes, I'm pointing out that if youi are going to create a thematic army, then it should be completed, not half-a-job when you are talking the kind of money that is invested in this hobby by its members. If you are however saying that the holes were intentional, then that would mean that having allies is a necesity, not an option, in which case, why have any pretence of option in the game / armies at all. Just have one set army list that each faction plays and sell them as a whole bundle at a set price.

So, your options are - A) Army is broken through incompetence and costs players money and choice because of it

or

B) Army is broken by choice and costs players money and choice because of it.

I'm simply stating that I would prefer - C) Army is not broken and allows players more choice in what they take.

Which is a valid opinion. Sorry if this offends you, enjoy your patchwork force wqhile you hurl money into GW's pockets.

Bartali
14-05-2013, 12:10
I'm simply stating that I would prefer - C) Army is not broken and allows players more choice in what they take.

Which is a valid opinion. Sorry if this offends you, enjoy your patchwork force wqhile you hurl money into GW's pockets.

Sure, it's a valid opinion. Not on option that's ever likely to happen though. I suggest trying another game ? Warmachine does quite well at this.

A.T.
14-05-2013, 12:20
Sorry to single you out, but the majority of Warseer need to stop pretending that being forced to buy units from an army you have no interest in, that don't mesh with the look of your chosen force in order to 'band-aid' broken areas of a codexCalling the taus anti-AV14 firepower 'broken' with the new rail rifle is stretching it a bit. Tau have effective anti-AV14 in every single slot in the army, some of it quite fast.
That they can no longer field three S10 AP1 table-range BS5 twinlinked cover ignoring relentless and relatively cheap 2+ save multiwound weapon suits in a single slot is not necessarily a bad thing.

The gun is put in the shade a little by the missile pod, but as has been said that's more due to how good the missile pod is. S8AP1 is top drawer firepower for some books and that it's only second best for tau is a sign of their strength not their weakness.

aim
14-05-2013, 13:15
Calling the taus anti-AV14 firepower 'broken' with the new rail rifle is stretching it a bit. Tau have effective anti-AV14 in every single slot in the army, some of it quite fast.
That they can no longer field three S10 AP1 table-range BS5 twinlinked cover ignoring relentless and relatively cheap 2+ save multiwound weapon suits in a single slot is not necessarily a bad thing.

The gun is put in the shade a little by the missile pod, but as has been said that's more due to how good the missile pod is. S8AP1 is top drawer firepower for some books and that it's only second best for tau is a sign of their strength not their weakness.

I haven't been saying they can't deal with AV14, what I am saying is that there should be a reliable ranged method to do it since the hardline theme for the Tau is that they don't do CQC. Following that theme through would be to give them reliable ranged methods to deal with it instead of 'ah well, do what the other races do but sacrifice the unit afterwards'. Note, I don't actually think the HRR should be put back to S10 AP1. I only really contributed to the thread in order to point out that the complete lack of CC ability in the army sets them apart from other forces in the game and as such, its not unreasonable to want the theme to include a reliable method of dealing with AV14 that doesn't involve sitting a squad on it.

300Spartans1cup
14-05-2013, 13:15
Also the true benefit of Str 10 is its effectiveness against AV 13 + 14 (especially 14). Most of which are terribly expensive and can't be effectively spammed in the current game anyway.

Except for Necrons, haha.

daveNYC
14-05-2013, 13:48
Let's not talk too crazy, if S8 is the top end of a codex's firepower it's usually got Lance, Melta, or Gauss attached to it.

The other thing about the HRR vs the HYMP is that the secondary weapon system choices complement the HYMP much better. A regular MP is a pretty obvious choice to take with the HYMP, everything is at the same range, and six shots at S7 is probably going to hurt something, but with the HRR, what is a good secondary system to take? The advantages the HRR has over the HYMP are higher strength, AP 1 and range, and none of the secondary systems really complement that. They're all shorter ranged (in some cases, much so) and none of them are going to do much (or anything) to AV14 at the ranges you'd want to rock the HRR at. I guess Plasma is a thing, but even then I'd rather the weight of fire off of the HYMP over the AP1 single shot of the HRR.

Is this just me thinking this? Would the long range pulse rifle thing (whatever that's called) be an attractive choice for secondary system on the Broadside?

A.T.
14-05-2013, 13:54
I only really contributed to the thread in order to point out that the complete lack of CC ability in the army sets them apart from other forces in the game and as such, its not unreasonable to want the theme to include a reliable method of dealing with AV14 that doesn't involve sitting a squad on it.The hammerhead is reliable, relative to options that many other forces have. Better than lances, better than lascannons, long range and accurate.

But there is dealing with something reliably, and then dealing with something easily, and (speaking as someone with no AV14 in their book) I don't think it's reasonable for any army to be casually knocking it off the board without at least putting their own units on the line in the process, or at the very least having to put a bit more effort in than 'turn 1, kill all AV14'.


As for the taus lack of cc - suicide melta forces from other armies are not expected to counter assault survive either, it's not some unique tau weakness to lose a small unit sent to cripple a big one.




Let's not talk too crazy, if S8 is the top end of a codex's firepower it's usually got Lance, Melta, or Gauss attached to it.AngrySistersOfBattleNerd incoming with the exorcist in 3...2...1...

BigHammer
14-05-2013, 13:58
What would folks thoughts on it be if it were Rapid Fire instead of Heavy 1?

Re: S8 firepower: High-end weaponry usually comes with a downside. In most cases it's cost, in a lot it's rate of fire, and in some it's even range.

HRR doesn't have Melta, but it does have 60" range.
HRR doesn't have S9, but it does have AP1.
HRR doesn't have Lance, but it does have twin-linked and half a table's worth of extra range.

Comparing its cost to units that regularly mount these weapons;

Land Speeders are more fragile than Broadside suits, though obviously much faster. They cost more or less the same with a HB/MM loadout (for similar firepower), but have to close range much farther to engage and can't contest objectives or hit things in melee.

5 Devastators with 4 Lascannons are comparable in price to 3 Broadsides. They have 1 wound less, ablate firepower more easily, have worse armour and even the mighty lascannon is outranged by the HRR. They have much better morale, of course, and are better in a scrap for the most part, but the Broadsides technically have them outgunned within 30" or beyond 48".

A Ravager with triple Dark Lances and a flickerfield or night shield has a small discount compared to a pair of naked Broadsides. It has 1 more AT shot and is much more mobile, but lacks 2' of range and is nearly as fragile as the land speeders.

So the Broadsides are much more static, and S8 can't deal with heavy armour as effectively as we would like. It still knocks six shades of heck out of medium armour, and light armour might as well not exist. The real advantage, though, is the fact that they can sit in the furthest corner of the largest battlefield and likely still hit whatever they can see. Even in Tau mirror matches, you can watch your opponent cry as you deploy your HRR broadsides 37" away from his HYMP ones and be able to 1-shot them off the table thanks to AP1 and instant death. In fact, they're especially useful against things like Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Paladins, Ork Nobs, etc, where S8 and a decent AP rating can really make the difference, and the added range gives you a turn or two extra of staying out of assault range.

Sure, in Mathhammer the HYMP's are better on offence. They are, however, tailored to a different strategic need than the HRR's; punishing mid-range weight of fire tailored to medium targets rather than extreme range high-end firepower that can engage just about any target.

daveNYC
14-05-2013, 14:27
The hammerhead is reliable, relative to options that many other forces have. Better than lances, better than lascannons, long range and accurate.
...

As for the taus lack of cc - suicide melta forces from other armies are not expected to counter assault survive either, it's not some unique tau weakness to lose a small unit sent to cripple a big one.



AngrySistersOfBattleNerd incoming with the exorcist in 3...2...1...

I'd be more annoyed at the SoB rants if their army weren't in such a sad state. The Space Marines might be the posterboys for 40k, but SoB really are the purest essence of the setting, and as such deserve better. And so it goes, I guess.

The railgun on a hammerhead is a great gun, but you have to be playing on a big table with relatively little terrain to take full advantage of it, and other than the range, I don't think there's a difference between a dark lance and railgun.

One of the goofier elements of 40k play is the way certain units end up being used in a way that's completely the opposite of the fluff. Suicide meltas from the elite slots (hi there CSM Terminators!) being the main example. Fluffwise they (and crisis suits) are the best of the best, but on the tabletop, the tactic is to deep strike them next to something hot, hope they kill it, and then watch them melt under return fire the next turn.

Nothing you can really do about it, but it's just funny how the rules work that that's the role that brings the most value to the game.

T10
14-05-2013, 14:33
Broadsides were once the scourge of heavy armour and dropping them to S8 means they're not that scary to Russ any more. Would adding the 'Lance' USR solve this problem?...

This isn't here to moan about broadsides but simply a suggestion that is quick and easy to resolve the issue?...

Are there really that many vehicles in use out there that require multiple S 10 AP 1 weapons to deal with? Land Raiders and Monoliths seem pretty rare, seeing as how the current Glancing Hit rules mean they are a lot more likely to be nickled-and-dimed to death. S 8 AP 1 seems perfect for dealing with "spam" vehicles like Trukks, Raiders and Rhinos.

-T10

ehlijen
14-05-2013, 14:59
If you are however saying that the holes were intentional, then that would mean that having allies is a necesity, not an option, in which case, why have any pretence of option in the game / armies at all. Just have one set army list that each faction plays and sell them as a whole bundle at a set price.

Having holes is not the same as needing allies. The army construction system in 40k is very open. Open means a lot of choice but also a lot of rope to hang yourself with. For every choice you make, you must be aware of the weaknesses that adds/doesn't address in your force. Factions have intentional holes to make them different. You can fill them with allies, but you don't have to. Either choice is as valid as the other, as long as you know what you're getting into.

since the hardline theme for the Tau is that they don't do CQC.

There is your mistake. Tau don't like melee, but they do very much do close quarter fighting, ie fighting at ranges where melee can happen. They weren't given free photons, repulsor fields, grav drones, supporting fire, wide access to Hit and run and counterfire defence systems for nothing. Accept that your tau force is now expected to be in potential charge range some of the time and partake in the myriad ways that can enhance your battle plan with new toys.


The other thing about the HRR vs the HYMP is that the secondary weapon system choices complement the HYMP much better. A regular MP is a pretty obvious choice to take with the HYMP, everything is at the same range, and six shots at S7 is probably going to hurt something, but with the HRR, what is a good secondary system to take? The advantages the HRR has over the HYMP are higher strength, AP 1 and range, and none of the secondary systems really complement that. They're all shorter ranged (in some cases, much so) and none of them are going to do much (or anything) to AV14 at the ranges you'd want to rock the HRR at. I guess Plasma is a thing, but even then I'd rather the weight of fire off of the HYMP over the AP1 single shot of the HRR.

What are you talking about? The only secondary options for broadsides are smart missiles and plasma rifles. And the plasma rifle matches the HRR role more closely than the SMS matches the HYMP, being a lot weaker and with worse AP.



The railgun on a hammerhead is a great gun, but you have to be playing on a big table with relatively little terrain to take full advantage of it, and other than the range, I don't think there's a difference between a dark lance and railgun.


Railguns instant kill T5, dark lances do not. Railguns get twice the bonus on damage rolls that dark lances get. Railguns are better vs AV13 or less than dark lances; only vs 14 are they equally likely to penetrate. The railgun can buy a secondary fire mode that's anti infantry, the dark lance cannot. The only thing dark lances have over railguns is higher availability, and that they get precisely because they are not as good.

Also, when praising HYMPs, remember that in a duel between HYMP broadsides and HRR broadsides, the HRR is far more likely to win the day, even if both do start in range of the other (not a given for the HYMP).

daveNYC
14-05-2013, 17:19
Hilarious. And all this time I had been reading the Broadside as having the stock MP, not the SMS.

Charistoph
14-05-2013, 17:35
Also, when praising HYMPs, remember that in a duel between HYMP broadsides and HRR broadsides, the HRR is far more likely to win the day, even if both do start in range of the other (not a given for the HYMP).

That's more like the difference between Lysander and Shrike. The HRR only needs one good hit, the HYMP needs as many as possible.

Nurgling Chieftain
14-05-2013, 18:59
Assuming 4+ cover, the HYMP needs 6 times as many wounds but only gets 4 times as many shots. I wonder how it boils down if you add drones to both? The HYMP is better at killing drones, but then the drones are pretty good at it, too. Really, access to missile pod drones is a definite perk for broadsides, and they obviously work well with HYMP's.

Dark_Kindred
14-05-2013, 19:37
Is the Heavy Rail Rifle broken? I don't think so.

Konovalev
15-05-2013, 13:31
So the HRR's niche is that it's good at killing other Broadsides? That's horribly situational.

Bobthemime
15-05-2013, 13:56
So the HRR's niche is that it's good at killing other Broadsides? That's horribly situational.
its good at killing other non-AV anti-mech (sans MC)

A.T.
15-05-2013, 13:59
So the HRR's niche is that it's good at killing other Broadsides? That's horribly situational.Broadsides, landraiders, russes, liths, fortifications, cron AV13 spam, anything with long-ish range heavy weapons (like exorcists or laspreds sitting back at 48"), T4 models with lots of wounds (like the doom), anything iron-armed up to T9 or 10, anything with a 2+, multiwound MEQs...

daveNYC
15-05-2013, 14:29
Landraiders and Monoliths? Maybe with loaded dice that's a plan.

BigHammer
15-05-2013, 14:37
Landraiders and Monoliths? Maybe with loaded dice that's a plan.

Technically it's infinitely better at the task than the HYMP version...

A.T.
15-05-2013, 14:38
Landraiders and Monoliths? Maybe with loaded dice that's a plan.Purely in the HRR vs HYMP comparison. One of those odd situations where if the missile pod wasn't so good them people would probably be complaining less about the rail rifle.

Menthak
15-05-2013, 14:48
Take a Hammerhead, that's my quick fix

The bearded one
15-05-2013, 14:48
Broadsides, landraiders, russes, liths, fortifications, cron AV13 spam, anything with long-ish range heavy weapons (like exorcists or laspreds sitting back at 48"), T4 models with lots of wounds (like the doom), anything iron-armed up to T9 or 10, anything with a 2+, multiwound MEQs...

Werent the missiles actually better statwise in killing terminators than a railrifle..?



Technically it's infinitely better at the task than the HYMP version...

Technically ;) but it translates into trying to glance those vehicles to death with a single-shot weapon. So in case of perfect rolls it takes a rifleside four rounds of hitting and rolling a 6. More average rolls require 24 hits, so not factoring in cover or hitting.

A.T.
15-05-2013, 15:09
Werent the missiles actually better statwise in killing terminators than a railrifle..?Against 2+ 5++ they would be statistically the same wouldn't they?

They'd be better against THSS terminators though, so it should have been "anything 2+ without a good invulnerable save or superior cover saves"

Charistoph
15-05-2013, 15:12
Werent the missiles actually better statwise in killing terminators than a railrifle..?

Depends on the Terminator. If we're talking about stock Terminators, I would think that the HRR would be a little better, but the HYMP would provide the volume needed to bypass any Storm Shield bearing models.


Technically ;) but it translates into trying to glance those vehicles to death with a single-shot weapon. So in case of perfect rolls it takes a rifleside four rounds of hitting and rolling a 6. More average rolls require 24 hits, so not factoring in cover or hitting.

Which is a far sight better than trying to roll an Armour Penetration of a 7 with a single die (i.e. doing jack schmidt at all to the model).

Bobthemime
15-05-2013, 15:14
Werent the missiles actually better statwise in killing terminators than a railrifle..?

Failing a 5++, that could snipe characters (need to add a clause that i stick the HRR on a 'vre), is easier than 2+, that cant snipe w/o jeopardizing interceptor or skyfire.


But in the end, as others have pointed out.. take a RailHead with special dude and laugh your way to the bank

Tastyfish
15-05-2013, 16:27
Broadsides, landraiders, russes, liths, fortifications, cron AV13 spam, anything with long-ish range heavy weapons (like exorcists or laspreds sitting back at 48"), T4 models with lots of wounds (like the doom), anything iron-armed up to T9 or 10, anything with a 2+, multiwound MEQs...

Niche, not what it can do better than the HYMP version.

It's not a particularly useful weapon against AV14, (it'll take almost all a game to glance them to death), T8+ (Tau are hardly short on sniper weapons) or really even terminators (even 2W ones as Riptides and plasma are better here).
The range is useful though, and I can see the value of having a single HRR suit in a squad - it shouldn't be the 'vre though. Give it to a standard suit with a target lock to threaten vehicles at long distance and it's not that big a drop in firepower compared to a squad of three HYMP suits.

Precision shots with S8 AP1 are really only good if you're thinking of taking out characters, but single shot and LOS means that this is going to be something that happens once every six games or so. Instead you could have a HYMP 'vre who is getting a couple of precision shots each turn and focus on the heavy and special weapons. It'll also let you have a target lock on the HRR and a ATS on the 'vre.

The bearded one
15-05-2013, 16:46
Which is a far sight better than trying to roll an Armour Penetration of a 7 with a single die (i.e. doing jack schmidt at all to the model).

* shrug * meh, in the case of str7 you don't bother and seek another target. However str8 is not far off. It's an exceptionally minimal chance of taking out av14 assuming you fire at it for the majority/entire game. Just like with str7 you usually don't bother. Where str7 is "impossible", str8 is "possible assuming you have one or two dozen rounds, rather than 6"

A.T.
15-05-2013, 18:04
Niche, not what it can do better than the HYMP version.'insufficiently niche' isn't really an argument.

Phanixis
15-05-2013, 18:51
I have to agree with TastyFish on this one. The HRR simply don't offer enough to compete with HYMP. With the exception of the extra range, which you will be hard pressed to use, HRR are flatly inferior to standard imperial lascannons against everything save AV10 and AV11 vehicles. I see little justification in shelling out 65 points minimum for a single TL str8 ap1 shot, and feel even if the old broadside were a bit underpriced, these new ones are clearly overpriced when running the HRR.

I also don't see the problem with the old broadsides. Yes, 3x3 old broadsides absolutely decimated enemy armor, but they cost approximately half the Tau's points at 1850 once you included the cost of the support systems and drones, and they really weren't all that great against anything that wasn't a vehicle or a multiwound T5 model. If an opponent brought a foot mobile list against your 3x3 broadsides, you were pretty much screwed. The only reason these setup was so deadly is that opponents were so predictable in 5e and constantly spammed vehicles. Of course 3x3 broadsides are going to crush a list with 8+ vehicles, as the Tau player has essentially overinvested in anti-tank and vehicle heavy armies play right into that. Nothing wrong with a side that has taken nothing but vehicles losing to a side that has taken nothing but anti-vehicle (because I almost guarantee that along with 3 x 3 broadside, you would have found xv8 deathrains in these armies to). Its just an army being built for a very specific purpose being very good at what it was built for.

Which brings us to the new broadsides. The new HYMP broadsides, especially when combined with the free support systems, buffed SMS, and dirt cheap missile pod drones, are every bit as lethal, if not more so, than the older variants. Its just they are now lethal against a different class of targets. Had the old railgun option still been a choice, and the velocity tracker limited to only the HYMP, I think you would have still seen a lot of players opt for the HYMP variant or a mix of the two. Against a weaker str 9 rail rifle I would expect the HYMP to win out, or at least win out if you discounted the fact that most Tau players already own several HRR broadsides but have to purchase HYMP broadsides. In many ways the rather weak stats on the HRR seem like a way to force Tau players who already own broadsides to purchase the new ones to acquire the far superior HYMP. Even if the str10 variants were overpowered, str9 HRR most certainly would not be.

Tastyfish
15-05-2013, 19:11
'insufficiently niche' isn't really an argument.

It's not "insufficiently niche", it's that there's no clear role for it.

For the most part the issue is that whatever problem, or combination of problems you have - the HRR broadside is not the best answer.
That's why the unit choice is broken, there's no reason to take it.

Bobthemime
15-05-2013, 19:24
It's not "insufficiently niche", it's that there's no clear role for it.

For the most part the issue is that whatever problem, or combination of problems you have - the HRR broadside is not the best answer.
That's why the unit choice is broken, there's no reason to take it.

its a 60" str 8 ap 1 shot.. the fact you can pop a transport from your back line doesnt give a reason to take it?

it also has a π60^2 bubble around it for interceptor, means you have a LARGE threat range.

EDIT: thats an area of 11309.733552923 in2

that is alot of area it can hit.



Sure at ≤36" there are other things that can do its job.. but for 24 extra inches you can harm av13, meaning you will have a turn of shooting to pop av13 before your 36" wonders have to glance it to death.