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Vazalaar
10-05-2013, 06:10
In comparison with a noble a Sea Helm cost 1/3 more, has the same statline except the Sea Helm has one attack less. The reason for this I don't know.

The Sea Helm has two special rules. Naval discipline, which is nice but certainly not worth the point difference. The 4+ ward versus non magical shooting only counts when he is on Skycutter. I would prefer to have him on foot for a themed Lothern Army.

I wish he would have 3 attacks instead of 2 for no clear reason imo.

What do you think?

Chacim
10-05-2013, 06:46
I think naval discipline is huge and he's very cost effective for it. Unless you want him to super shoot (aka reaver bow at BS 6) I think his place is in a unit of special choice. (being flank charged is death even with super good elites and being able to combat reform in response to a charge can really save your butt)

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2013, 08:31
Of the combat lord choices, only the Prince gets 4 attacks.
The Annointed only gets 3 attacks, as does the Loremaster.

Of the combat hero choices, only the Noble gets 3 attacks.
The Dragon Mage, Sea Helm and Handmaiden all get only 2 attacks.

It does look to be a design decision.
Look at The Empire as a similar example.
The Grand Master is the only Lord with 4 attacks, the Empire General is stuck with just 3, while the Arch Lector gets only 2.
The Captain is the only Hero with 3 attacks, The Warrior Priest and Witch Hunters have just 2 each and the Engineer is stuck with only 1.

In any case, the Naval Discipline lets you combat reform whenever you get charged.
Pretty handy if you have a horde that would normally fight in 4 ranks but has been flanked don't you think?

enyoss
10-05-2013, 08:35
In an age of three/five fighting ranks of elites/spearmen, does one extra S4 attack make any difference? That aside, I think the Naval Discipline rule seems like a great way of avoiding those "oh dear, that went wrong, now I'm flanked and it's all over" moments :).

EDIT: On the variation of attacks between character classes within the Lord/Hero choices, I think it's a nice design decision. It reminds me of the Warhammer Ancients army lists, which seemed to have much greater variance in the attack statistic than Warhammer ever had (e.g. compared to Hero = 3A, Lord = 4A, which always seemed pretty boring to me).

Shakkara
10-05-2013, 11:36
Of the combat lord choices, only the Prince gets 4 attacks.
Tyrion, Eltharion, Alith Anar?


The Annointed only gets 3 attacks, as does the Loremaster.
Main reason NEVER EVER to take an Annointed or Loremaster, in my opinion. Not only that, they also are -1 leadership. They already pay a lot of points for their bonuses, and then pay extra stat loss on top of that? An extra attack is 20 points by itself... And without it, you're just going to get slaughtered in any challenge.


Of the combat hero choices, only the Noble gets 3 attacks.
Korhil, Carandryan, main reason why I'm ONLY going to take Carandryan on a phoenix. Get +1 extra attack from his bird too! Woot!


The Dragon Mage, Sea Helm and Handmaiden all get only 2 attacks.
Main reason to NEVER EVER take any of them either. Well, the dragon mage is technically a mage with +1 attack so maybe not so bad.

AkodoGilador
10-05-2013, 11:58
As a melee combatant and as a general, the Loremaster is distinctly inferior to the Prince. However, the comparison to a lv4 Archmage is more interesting. He only gets +2 to cast/dispel vs +4 for the Archmage (or +5 when casting High Magic), but he gets 8 spells vs the Archmage's 4. That's actually pretty tasty, even if they're just the signature spells.

Alex

SeBM
10-05-2013, 12:03
Tyrion, Eltharion, Alith Anar?


Main reason NEVER EVER to take an Annointed or Loremaster, in my opinion. Not only that, they also are -1 leadership. They already pay a lot of points for their bonuses, and then pay extra stat loss on top of that? An extra attack is 20 points by itself... And without it, you're just going to get slaughtered in any challenge.


Korhil, Carandryan, main reason why I'm ONLY going to take Carandryan on a phoenix. Get +1 extra attack from his bird too! Woot!


Main reason to NEVER EVER take any of them either. Well, the dragon mage is technically a mage with +1 attack so maybe not so bad.

Wow your reasoning is pretty weak. The Annointed has a built in 4+ Ward, a decent special rule and fear. You lose 1 BS, 1 A and 1 Ld. But you boost a whole unit with him, and you are free to spend 100 pts on magic items without having to buy a ward, which allows you to make some pretty interesting combos. As for leadership 9, if you don't feel comfortable with it, give the unit a standard of discipline and you are fine.

The loremaster is a a level 2 mage in armour that has access to all the signature spells from the BRB and you complain because he has 3 attacks?

In all cases, I feel like the special rules given to pretty much every character largely overshadows the fact that they lost one attack.

Seriously, the 3 new character choices are very nice, with the Loremaster and Annointed being competitive and the Sea Helm being probably close to competitive. I can totally see a BSB Sea Helm with a good magic armour giving a lot of utility/flexibility in an important unit.

gogs78
10-05-2013, 12:19
Tyrion, Eltharion, Alith Anar?


Main reason NEVER EVER to take an Annointed or Loremaster, in my opinion. Not only that, they also are -1 leadership. They already pay a lot of points for their bonuses, and then pay extra stat loss on top of that? An extra attack is 20 points by itself... And without it, you're just going to get slaughtered in any challenge.


Korhil, Carandryan, main reason why I'm ONLY going to take Carandryan on a phoenix. Get +1 extra attack from his bird too! Woot!


Main reason to NEVER EVER take any of them either. Well, the dragon mage is technically a mage with +1 attack so maybe not so bad.



Think your overreacting there a tad fella :) As mentioned above the new characters are far from useless. More than anything its nice to have lots of variation after so many years of the same characters.

Shakkara
10-05-2013, 12:47
Wow your reasoning is pretty weak. The Annointed has a built in 4+ Ward, a decent special rule and fear. You lose 1 BS, 1 A and 1 Ld. But you boost a whole unit with him, and you are free to spend 100 pts on magic items without having to buy a ward, which allows you to make some pretty interesting combos. As for leadership 9, if you don't feel comfortable with it, give the unit a standard of discipline and you are fine.
But he already costs 70 points more than a standard prince, which sounds about right: 45 points for the 4+ ward, 10 for fear, 15 for the special rule which I think isn't so good as it doesn't stack so you shouldn't put him in a phoenix guard unit, oddly enough. But you pay 50 more points in the form of a weak statline. He lacks versatility as you can't put him on a horse and put him in a cavalry unit (would have been nice if his ward save would stack and you could put him in a dragon prince unit). With his crappy offensive capabilities, you're forced to buy him the +3 attack sword to compensate and since you can't buy him a normal shield, you are forced to take the enchanted shield as well. Don't really see any other options to make him a viable character. And with all this to compensate for his many flaws, he's just too expensive over a regular prince (or Carandryan, if you want someone to sit on your phoenix).


The loremaster is a a level 2 mage in armour that has access to all the signature spells from the BRB and you complain because he has 3 attacks?
I see no reason at all to take him over an archmage at his current point cost. He's only level 2 (So forced to take book of hoeth) and his combat abilities are not so awesome. Again, can't mount him, so he's not going to get an armor good save to speak of. You'd think he would be able to stand up in a fight in the front rank of a unit, but with his point value, weak offensive and survivability issues he must hide in the second rank of a unit just like any other mage.

Vazalaar
10-05-2013, 13:12
I didn't think about putting a Sea Helm in a unit of SM/WL, Silly me.;) I thought his rightful place was in a unit of Sea guard.

Thanks for the advice!

bigbiggles
10-05-2013, 13:36
Looks like the sea helm only has the option for light armor too. Not bad, but I wanted heavy

Von Wibble
10-05-2013, 19:32
But he already costs 70 points more than a standard prince, which sounds about right: 45 points for the 4+ ward, 10 for fear, 15 for the special rule which I think isn't so good as it doesn't stack so you shouldn't put him in a phoenix guard unit, oddly enough. But you pay 50 more points in the form of a weak statline. He lacks versatility as you can't put him on a horse and put him in a cavalry unit (would have been nice if his ward save would stack and you could put him in a dragon prince unit). With his crappy offensive capabilities, you're forced to buy him the +3 attack sword to compensate and since you can't buy him a normal shield, you are forced to take the enchanted shield as well. Don't really see any other options to make him a viable character. And with all this to compensate for his many flaws, he's just too expensive over a regular prince (or Carandryan, if you want someone to sit on your phoenix).

Assuming you want a fighter on foot (which is the only way you can compare the 2 characters) I have to disagree. First of all you have undercosted the special rule considerably - itp and 6+ ward for a unit is worth twice that. Lets remember that ward can stack with high magic. You have 100 points to spend on magic items without needing to worry about protection - though 2+ rerollable save with 4+ ward can be done with points to spare in the allowance. A prince meanwhile cannot have more than S4 if he has that much protection - I'd say an extra attack vs an extra strength is about level myself. Ld9 itp compared to Ld10 is pretty close really, and banner of discipline can be used if necessary.


I see no reason at all to take him over an archmage at his current point cost. He's only level 2 (So forced to take book of hoeth) and his combat abilities are not so awesome. Again, can't mount him, so he's not going to get an armor good save to speak of. You'd think he would be able to stand up in a fight in the front rank of a unit, but with his point value, weak offensive and survivability issues he must hide in the second rank of a unit just like any other mage.

What survivability issues? Enemies need 4 to hit him, and he's going to have a good armour save and/or ward (good chance of both). Unless you regularly charge him on his own into chaos warriors he isn't going to fall that quickly. As a caster, if he has book of hoeth he's as good as an archmage, with twice as many spells. Remember, when 1 dicing a spell (probability of success is 8/9) a level 1 can quite capably sap dice from a level 4. Not to mention the shenanigans possible with lore attributes (shadow and life in particular).

The Sea Helm - his place is in a wide unit of white lions or phoenix guard. Often I run mine 7 wide and 3 ranks. If flank charged, I get 3 attacks. With a Sea Helm this changes considerably. Whilst you can think "this means I have to do something wrong to get any benefits" the reality is that it allows you to place the sea helms unit at the edge of your lines without needing to anchor it to a table edge or protect it with chaff.

TheRaven
10-05-2013, 19:42
I personally hate the sea Helm, I think it's one of the worst character rules ever created. I think his little “Reform tactic” became useless with martial prowess. I really don’t see people taking sea guard units bigger than 20/25 but whatever, lets assume you want to take 30 seaguard in your core. I would rather just leave them in 5X6. You really don’t lose that many shots.

5X6 will still get 23 shots a turn in that formation. Going to 3X10 and taking a seahelm just so you can sift reforming when you get charged will only net you an extra 7 shots a turn. Plus you have to GIVE UP YOUR STAND AND SHOOT reaction. In the end, if you’re getting charged on turn 3 on average, you get 21 extra shots, and then lose the chance at making 23 stand and shoot shots. You’re really barely gaining anything in my eyes. And that is with very favorable “theoreticals”. So you’re paying 100 points for………… what????? Shuffling around “When” you can make a few extra S3 shots????? Just an insane waste of points in my opionoin……….

Von Wibble
10-05-2013, 19:46
Assuming he deploys with sea guard you may have a point. But as I say, its wide units of elites with 3 ranks being hit on the flank where he shines.

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2013, 19:47
TheRaven, you don't put him in seaguard....that would be silly (and fluffy), you put him in literally any other unit.
Then it doesn't matter that you can't do if you chose to stand and shoot.

TheRaven
10-05-2013, 19:56
He can only use his reform ability in Seaguard. If you deploy him in any other unit he's a 100 Pt noble with 1 less attack.

Ludaman
10-05-2013, 20:00
Wait High elf princes only have 4 attacks!? I'm never taking one again, they'll lose every challenge they'll fight to any lords with 5 attacks!!!! :) J/K seriously though, it's a rare game that comes down to a combat character doing anything important In combat. This is 8th edition, it's all about supporting your units.

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2013, 20:03
He can only use his reform ability in Seaguard. If you deploy him in any other unit he's a 100 Pt noble with 1 less attack.

That's not what the rules say :P

Von Wibble
10-05-2013, 20:03
He can only use his reform ability in Seaguard. If you deploy him in any other unit he's a 100 Pt noble with 1 less attack.

The rule on p.43 says "if a unit with at least 1 sea helm is charged...". It doesn't say the unit has to be LSG at all.

Edit @theunwantedbeing - I suppose I ninjad you a couple of minutes ago...

TheRaven
10-05-2013, 20:05
Hmmm. i could have sworn my book said if a unit of sea guard. My bad.

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2013, 20:08
Hmmm. i could have sworn my book said if a unit of sea guard. My bad.

It happens, sadly GW never seems to quite want you to deploy in a fluffy manner.
I think the biggest disappointment regarding the Sea Helm is that you can't give his Skycutter a Bolt Thrower :(

datalink7
10-05-2013, 20:09
But he already costs 70 points more than a standard prince, which sounds about right: 45 points for the 4+ ward, 10 for fear, 15 for the special rule which I think isn't so good as it doesn't stack so you shouldn't put him in a phoenix guard unit, oddly enough. But you pay 50 more points in the form of a weak statline. He lacks versatility as you can't put him on a horse and put him in a cavalry unit (would have been nice if his ward save would stack and you could put him in a dragon prince unit). With his crappy offensive capabilities, you're forced to buy him the +3 attack sword to compensate and since you can't buy him a normal shield, you are forced to take the enchanted shield as well. Don't really see any other options to make him a viable character. And with all this to compensate for his many flaws, he's just too expensive over a regular prince (or Carandryan, if you want someone to sit on your phoenix).


I see no reason at all to take him over an archmage at his current point cost. He's only level 2 (So forced to take book of hoeth) and his combat abilities are not so awesome. Again, can't mount him, so he's not going to get an armor good save to speak of. You'd think he would be able to stand up in a fight in the front rank of a unit, but with his point value, weak offensive and survivability issues he must hide in the second rank of a unit just like any other mage.

I disagree, though it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Prince has +1A (20pts) and +1LD (15pts). So with the 70 pts already, that is 105pts more.

For 105 pts you get:

4++ (45pts)
MR(2) (30pts)
Fear (10pts)
ITP to Unit (similar to Mark of Slaneesh which is 1 point/model, so on average lets say 25pts)
6++ to unit (Not sure exactly how to cost this. 6++ for one model is 15pts, so 6++ for a whole unit let's say 25pts though you could argue more)

Total: 135 pts in abilities.

There is also the additional advantage of having the cost for the 4++ built in to the cost of the model instead of coming out of the magic item points. This means you can spend 100pts on magic items and actually be a better fighter than a Prince. I like Blade of Leaping Gold, Potion of Strength, and Enchanted Shield. That's a 2+/4++, 6 attacks where each 6 is no armor save, and one turn of strength 7. Not shabby for a foot character that also boosts his unit (probably White Lions).

I think he's certainly worth his points. The question isn't so much is whether he worth his points, is whether you want all those abilities or not. If you are building a list that won't take advantage of them, or want a cav list, you have the option of a Prince. But if I was building a High Elf list I'd have one.

As for the Loremaster, I think the Book of Hoeth/Talisman of Preservation build is a good one. He provides a lot of utility and is able to 2 dice pretty much all his spells, with 1 dicing some of them. This will bring a good magic phase. I'm less sure of him than I am of the anointed though.

Avian
10-05-2013, 20:14
In comparison with a noble a Sea Helm cost 1/3 more, has the same statline except the Sea Helm has one attack less. The reason for this I don't know.
I would think it's to give the Noble more of a distinct edge. If the Sea Helm was essentially just a more expensive Noble with some bonus special rules thrown in, it wouldn't do as much to tempt people to get the boring ol' Noble. That's my guess.

That doesn't explain the price point, but I guess experience will tell if he's worth it or not.

Von Wibble
10-05-2013, 20:40
I think that with most of the high elf characters you really have to build the list with their best capabilities in mind. In an infantry based army I think loremaster, sea helm and anointed all look good. In a fast army the prince and noble do far better since they actually can ride stuff (pretty obvious really) - of course the anointed on phoenix is also good.

I have to agree with Avian though, time and several games will be the best way to tell what works and what doesn't. Ultimately I don't think 1 attack makes that big a difference - combat characters need to do more anyway. I want my characters to improve my units, which ultimately do the hard work of killing the enemy.

Hoshiyami
10-05-2013, 20:54
It does look to be a design decision.
Look at The Empire as a similar example.
The Grand Master is the only Lord with 4 attacks, the Empire General is stuck with just 3, while the Arch Lector gets only 2.
The Captain is the only Hero with 3 attacks, The Warrior Priest and Witch Hunters have just 2 each and the Engineer is stuck with only 1.

In any case, the Naval Discipline lets you combat reform whenever you get charged.
Pretty handy if you have a horde that would normally fight in 4 ranks but has been flanked don't you think?

The captain has 3 attacks while the warrior priest and witch hunter have only 2, but the special rules they have are something better than the captain ones AND they're not very much more expensive than the captain (one is a bit cheaper, the other one a bit more expensive). The sea helm has two rules (he won't be able to use both of them at the same time), a worse statline, is less customizable and is quite more expensive. I think it would see more uses for him (outside fluff based one) if he was 50ish points and could have just 25 points in magic equipment, for instance. Even halving its price it wouldn't become an autoinclude anyway. Naval discipline is fine, but it can be easily negated with a combined charge and a 4+ special save shouldn't cost more than the model it's saving...

And it's a pitty, because he had some potential.

SteveW
11-05-2013, 01:31
Main reason NEVER EVER to take an ... Loremaster, in my opinion.

.

The Loremaster is the single most usefull character in all of warhammer. Every list I make from now on will have one...

As for the sea helm, I would pay 100 points to ADD naval discipline to a noble, so I think he's worth it.

Baluc
11-05-2013, 02:25
...the best use of a sea helm is to use sea guard or archers to pin your flank on. They can keep shooting at their desired targets and when the enemy sends a flanking force, you reform and face. Being unflankable seems pretty huge to me.

Von Wibble
11-05-2013, 18:45
The captain has 3 attacks while the warrior priest and witch hunter have only 2, but the special rules they have are something better than the captain ones AND they're not very much more expensive than the captain (one is a bit cheaper, the other one a bit more expensive). The sea helm has two rules (he won't be able to use both of them at the same time), a worse statline, is less customizable and is quite more expensive. I think it would see more uses for him (outside fluff based one) if he was 50ish points and could have just 25 points in magic equipment, for instance. Even halving its price it wouldn't become an autoinclude anyway. Naval discipline is fine, but it can be easily negated with a combined charge and a 4+ special save shouldn't cost more than the model it's saving...

And it's a pitty, because he had some potential.

I totally agree on the 4+ ward - I think given the price of the sea helm and skycutter put together I would increase it to 3+ ward and/or allow a reroll on the number of impact hits. But the reform rule - that's another matter. Given how easily high elves can get good chaff units I just can't see many foes combo charging you.

Lord Inquisitor
13-05-2013, 00:28
Personally, I think the Sea Helm is amazing for the points. I'd love to have him in virtually any army, but particularly high elves - wow, what a really nice option. It gives you a great many options with elite infantry, from forming as columns and then reforming to horde when the time comes and reforming to meet a flank charge. Not only that but it allows the Sea Helm himself (and any other vulnerable characters) to scurry off to the relative safety of a corner and avoid any enemy characters.

The downsides are that he can't take a mount, you can't do it if hit on more than one flank and he has a silly name.

The odd thing about the HE characters is that they rarely seem to fit with the corresponding unit. The Sea Helm goes really well with white lions or swordmasters rather than sea guard. Korhil belongs in any unit except white lions, Alariel goes well with white lions (and banner of the world dragon), Anointed go best in something other than Phoenix Guard and so on.

Gaargod
13-05-2013, 00:42
The downsides are... he has a silly name.
Quoted for truth right there. Major downside that. I mean, he's no Slaughterbrute, but whoever decided that was the official title at the High Elf court really did not like Sea Guard. Probably a cavalryelf.


The odd thing about the HE characters is that they rarely seem to fit with the corresponding unit. The Sea Helm goes really well with white lions or swordmasters rather than sea guard. Korhil belongs in any unit except white lions, Alariel goes well with white lions (and banner of the world dragon), Anointed go best in something other than Phoenix Guard and so on.

That happened last edition too. The problem is GW gives the special character the same rules as their unit type, as opposed to having them enhance the special rules of their unit type. I.e. Korhil should have stubborn, but if he joins White Lions, he becomes the equivalent to Coldblooded - thus not 'wasting' his stubborn rule.

Importman
13-05-2013, 01:30
I personally hate the sea Helm, I think it's one of the worst character rules ever created. I think his little “Reform tactic” became useless with martial prowess. I really don’t see people taking sea guard units bigger than 20/25 but whatever, lets assume you want to take 30 seaguard in your core. I would rather just leave them in 5X6. You really don’t lose that many shots.

5X6 will still get 23 shots a turn in that formation. Going to 3X10 and taking a seahelm just so you can sift reforming when you get charged will only net you an extra 7 shots a turn. Plus you have to GIVE UP YOUR STAND AND SHOOT reaction. In the end, if you’re getting charged on turn 3 on average, you get 21 extra shots, and then lose the chance at making 23 stand and shoot shots. You’re really barely gaining anything in my eyes. And that is with very favorable “theoreticals”. So you’re paying 100 points for………… what????? Shuffling around “When” you can make a few extra S3 shots????? Just an insane waste of points in my opionoin……….

Good logical argument there.

I think in this case the combat reform is reserved for flank and rear charges only. For those "oops" moments when you get flanked.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

GrandmasterWang
13-05-2013, 03:32
I don't see them as oops moments. Basically the helm lets you leave your seaguard flank to say a varghulf and continue shooting at the skeles or ghouls far in front arc supporting the rest of the army.

Then in the vc turn the varghulf flank charges the sea guard. There is no stand and shoot so nothing is lost.

Using the sea helm style the lsg then reform to face the varghulf and get say 20 attacks instead of 5 and aren't flanked.

Pretty cool for not so many points.

I personally think a great job has been done with the elf characters

danny-d-b
13-05-2013, 06:06
I think your undervaluing your special rules- the moment I saw the seahelm I though- i i'm taking one of them- and the lore master isn't half bad either (give him the book of +1 to cast and dispel and your effectively level 3 and you still have space for a wardsave- and with ASF your prob able to do quiet a lot of dammage to wizzard hunters who come to take him down)

by your way of thinking why would anyone take a warrior priest over a captain- hatred- 2S4 attacks with re-rolls are always going to be better than 3S4 and thats without hatred effecting the entire unit he's with as well. if the lore master/sea helm where empire things I'd take them everyday of the week and 3 times on saturday

Urgat
13-05-2013, 06:17
In my view, HE characters are never powerhouses in melee anyway, so one attack makes no difference. On the other hand, that battle reform rule is golden.

someone2040
13-05-2013, 06:33
Hmm my personal opinion is that he is over priced.
You basically only get 1 special rule for him, not two. You either get the 4+ ward on skycutter OR you get the naval discipline reform.
Yet he probably pays for having both special rules.

I don't rate Naval Discipline. Sure, it's nice and I can certainly see the uses of it. But in my head, I just don't see it being used that often to make a huge difference. Yep, can certainly save you from a flank charge or rear charge. But it's kinda like luck unless that is specifically in your plans.

I don't feel he's overpriced beyond useable, but certainly he is a bit overpriced.

For the others, I think they're probably alright in points. They all bring something unique to the table, and the unique ability isn't situational (Unless you're a Annointed on a Pheonix >.>)

boli
13-05-2013, 07:37
That reform rule is amazing. You can have him in a unit of "screening" Phoenix guard forcing your opponent to charge them before your counter charge with a more fragile unit (chariot?) later.

Combine that the eagle redirectors and you can pretty much dictate the battle. A lot of people are asumming he *must* be in a unit of seaguard.

Berghofer
13-05-2013, 09:10
Those of you who think he's too expensive, do you have any idea of the concept "tactics" at all? 8th ed. is all about letting the characters support the units, it's the units that normally wins or looses the battles. It wouldnt really matter if the guy had 1 attack, as long as long as you can just keep him alive. HE comabt characters were never made to kill in duels anyway, but to boost the armys LD and protect his designated unit from the worst of the enemys attacks (Killer lords like Chaos, Ogres etc.). He wins by staying alive, and letting his unit take less brutal casualties, so that the unit can win the combat.

It just doesnt matter if he has 1, 2, or 3 attacks. Get some perspective, and look at what he is really supposed to do, rather than considering 1 attack as vital or not - it doesnt matter...

And as to the reform rule.. HOLY CRAP; ITS COOL!!! I play WoC, and my cheapest character is 110 points killy tank, still dies from 2 wounds, DONT even give better LD (he got 8 like the warriors, so no bonus there!), and no combat reform or any other rule that could be useful. As a matter of fact, he is even FORCED to challenge, and to accept them. not very likely to benefit much, the chances of turning into a DP is less than 5 %...

And no, combat reform wont be needed every time. Just like ANYTHING ELSE in the game might not be needed. Sometimes you dont need what you brought, but sometimes you do. Just the fact that you can that easely adjust to the enemy, withut having to spend your own movement phase doing it, is incredebly awesome. And if you would get combo-side or rear charged, then nothing in the game would help you anyway, but tis at least give you a choice of how to handle it the best. Seriously, if you go by "I might not need it", then you wouldnt need to bring the army to begin with.. You might lose anyway, you know, so why bother?

Geez... Spoiled brats.

(no, not in a personal attacking way, just my overall thoughts on the subject. Is it provocative? sure. Is it provocative to hear players complain about getting one of the strongest tactical advantages in the game? even more so, I assure you. this is only meant to those not getting how good this is, I recon that many of you understand how good it is).

Minsc
13-05-2013, 11:11
I find him to be overpriced. He should at the very least have A3, or be cheaper.

Paying for the ability? Fine.
Paying for the ability while loosing one attack? Ok, I guess.
Paying for the ability while loosing one attack and while having pretty much no mundane wargear/mount options? No!

As it is right now, the Seahelm is a gimmick. Your opponent will fall for the trick once, maybe - after that he won't, and the Seahelm will be a bad, overpriced noble.

I would probably never put him on a Skycutter, the wardsave is only to compensate for the fact that you can't make use of Naval Discipline.

SteveW
13-05-2013, 13:26
I see all kinds of utility in him. Put him in a unit of sea guard and you can then let them continue to shoot at the enemy a turn longer than if he were a normal BSB/noble instead of reforming to face the flanking unit. That, and you can get away from having to protect the unit with chaff, saving you hundreds of points and freeing you up to use those units elseware.


That being said Ive used him twice now and have yet to use either of his abilities...lol

Blinder
13-05-2013, 15:45
I see all kinds of utility in him. Put him in a unit of sea guard and you can then let them continue to shoot at the enemy a turn longer than if he were a normal BSB/noble instead of reforming to face the flanking unit. That, and you can get away from having to protect the unit with chaff, saving you hundreds of points and freeing you up to use those units elseware.


That being said Ive used him twice now and have yet to use either of his abilities...lol

A large part of Naval Discipline seems to be down to its existence rather than use, however. As you say, the ability to not have to worry about the unit being easily flanked allows you to apply more force elsewhere and requires your opponent to dedicate more force against the Sea Helm's unit. I don't expect that you'd actually get all that many chances to use the reform but the ability is still going to impact the fight unless you put him in something silly like a dozen archers, or your opponent is hoping a single unit can hold them up a whole turn and that unit happens to be on the flank.

The only time I'd expect him to not be at least arguably worthwhile is if you're up against a literal 3-unit no-chaff army that wouldn't ever have a chance to flank something in the first place. (well, as long as you had a decent unit for him, that is)

The_Lemon
13-05-2013, 20:35
The biggest problem I see with the Sea Helm is his mundane equipment, at least let me put heavy armour and a shield in it, otherwise he is just too fragile for his points costs (it's easy to do 2 wounds on a T3 6+ save model).

theunwantedbeing
13-05-2013, 20:50
The biggest problem I see with the Sea Helm is his mundane equipment, at least let me put heavy armour and a shield in it, otherwise he is just too fragile for his points costs (it's easy to do 2 wounds on a T3 6+ save model).

He does have a sheild you know....for a whopping 5+ save!

Armour of Caledor? 2+ save
Armour of Silvered Steel? 2+ save
Sheild of the Merwyrm? 5+/4+ save in combat
Enchanted Sheild or Dragonhelm? 4+ save

I don't think he's really supposed to be a Noble replacement.

SteveW
13-05-2013, 20:52
he has a shield