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Elyeva
10-05-2013, 07:14
Hello people, I have a tactical question:

Can you use Spirit Leech (signature spell of Lore of Death) against War machines, and if possible, does the complete machine suffer wounds or is it all focust on one crewmember?

Because High Elf have an ambushers option in their new list it might be interesting... http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/icons/icon6.png

Regards, Elyeva

yeknoMehT
10-05-2013, 16:37
I think the machine as a whole would be affected - as the crew are not separate models, but you would use their Ld I think (unless they were also suffering from Treason of Tzeentch... But that is probably overkill in most cases anyway!

dementian
10-05-2013, 18:02
Well the WM could make use of the General's Ld now according to the FAQ:

P.10
"Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the
purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or
Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes."


But you can target the WM itself instead of crew members but they would get to use the General's Ld now apparently.

Lord Inquisitor
10-05-2013, 18:10
The war machine is a single model with crew just being little more than wound counters. Just like with a chariot, you can spirit leech the whole model and use the highest Ld on the model (or the general's Ld if in range for reasons that I'm not too clear on).

bigbiggles
10-05-2013, 22:42
War machines pass toughness and LD tests on the highest in the unit. Can't spirit leech the bolt thrower/ cannon. But you may be able to kill multiple crew with it

Starhawk
12-05-2013, 09:35
Rather different q on war machine, iron cuse icon give 6++ save vs war machines, does it work on hellcannon, ogre chariot cannon etc as these are not type WM but instead fire as WM? According to people i play with answer is no but this seems odd to me.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2013, 14:24
Yes, it works. Check the wording of ironcurse carefully, it works on war machine "weapons". Not all attacks from "unit type: war machine". The two are very similar. Hopefully 9th will make this more clear because the number of non-war machine war machine weapons is increasing. Calling the unit type "war machine" and the weapon type "siege weapons" would make things much more clear.

bigbiggles
14-05-2013, 07:54
I think I remember an FAQ where they said that the iron blaster did allow the iron curse save. Seems reasonable to me

Elyeva
15-05-2013, 07:03
Thanks for the replies. I'm looking forward to the moment that I have the chance to leech the machines out of my opponents army ;)

jtrowell
15-05-2013, 07:57
I think I remember an FAQ where they said that the iron blaster did allow the iron curse save. Seems reasonable to me

To be precise, the ironblaster *canon* allows the cursed icon save, I wouldn't expect the save to work against the impact hits or the close combat attacks of the chariot.

As others have already said, we must make the distinction between "warmachines" and "warmachine weapons"

bigbiggles
16-05-2013, 17:12
To be precise, the ironblaster *canon* allows the cursed icon save, I wouldn't expect the save to work against the impact hits or the close combat attacks of the chariot.

As others have already said, we must make the distinction between "warmachines" and "warmachine weapons"for sure. Does anyone remember if this is the only war machine like unit mentioned in an FAQ? If we found another I'd like to be able to assume gw means all units like the iron blaster/hell cannon give saves with iron curse (although I already do that)

gcw
20-05-2013, 06:29
Sorry if this is covering old ground, I tried searching for an answer but got conflicted arguments and was further confused by the new errata.

Question: If a mage casts spirit leech in a unit with the Banner of Discipline (+1 leadership, does the mage add +1 to his leadership score for the roll off ?

Also: Does the opposing model benefit from things like "strength in numbers" etc

It would be great to get a definitive answer, sorry if this has been discussed before...

Lord Inquisitor
21-05-2013, 23:17
We've been wondering these things since 8th came out ;)

It was really quite simple when the rulebook came out. It said "their own, unmodified Ld" and I didn't know anyone who was confused about that - you use your own, unmodified Ld on your profile!

Since then, we've had several FAQs on this subject which have muddied the water considerably. First we have this one:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

This is confusing because it seems to be answering the question from the perspective of a Ld test. But most have taken this to mean your "unmodified Ld" is the highest value in the unit.

Then we had this gem:

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the
purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or
Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

Well, I guess that's pretty explicit then, eh?

So at this point, the spell says you test on your own, unmodified Ld. Your "unmodified" Ld is the highest characteristic in the unit, presumably without any modification (the argument that "unmodified ld" can be a model's modified Ld is not one I'm prepared to entertain). The other FAQ explicitly states you can use IP, no idea if that is meant to be unmodified or not.

What we have is a mess, but here's my attempt to untangle it:

When using Spirit Leech you can substitute the Ld of another model in place of your own, but you may not apply modifiers to it.

Zoolander
26-05-2013, 04:21
Good lord that was clear as day until you brought up the FAQs.

sorberec
26-05-2013, 08:28
War machines pass toughness and LD tests on the highest in the unit.

Spirit Leech isn't a Leadership test though...

Sinsigel
29-05-2013, 10:21
We've been wondering these things since 8th came out ;)

It was really quite simple when the rulebook came out. It said "their own, unmodified Ld" and I didn't know anyone who was confused about that - you use your own, unmodified Ld on your profile!

Since then, we've had several FAQs on this subject which have muddied the water considerably. First we have this one:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

This is confusing because it seems to be answering the question from the perspective of a Ld test. But most have taken this to mean your "unmodified Ld" is the highest value in the unit.

Then we had this gem:

Q: Do units benefit from their Generalís Inspiring Presence for the
purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or
Okkamís Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

Well, I guess that's pretty explicit then, eh?

So at this point, the spell says you test on your own, unmodified Ld. Your "unmodified" Ld is the highest characteristic in the unit, presumably without any modification (the argument that "unmodified ld" can be a model's modified Ld is not one I'm prepared to entertain). The other FAQ explicitly states you can use IP, no idea if that is meant to be unmodified or not.

What we have is a mess, but here's my attempt to untangle it:

When using Spirit Leech you can substitute the Ld of another model in place of your own, but you may not apply modifiers to it.

I came up with rather slightly different interpetation.
You may use Inspiring Presence against Spirit Leech IF the general is within the same unit as the target of Spirit Leech, essentially benefiting from inspiring presence.
Inspiring Presence, however, doesn't come into play when general is in different unit from the target of spirit leech.
That way, both FAQ sections can be applied without severe contradiction.

yeknoMehT
29-05-2013, 11:41
I came up with rather slightly different interpetation.
You may use Inspiring Presence against Spirit Leech IF the general is within the same unit as the target of Spirit Leech, essentially benefiting from inspiring presence.
Inspiring Presence, however, doesn't come into play when general is in different unit from the target of spirit leech.
That way, both FAQ sections can be applied without severe contradiction.

The Inspiring Presence rule is unnecessary for when the general is in the unit. Then he is just the model with highest Ld (usually) in the unit. The IP rule specifically allows all friendly units within 12" of the general to use his Ld. While that includes his own unit, it is usually redundant since they'd use his Ld anyway.