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View Full Version : Ok just got the book's for Fantasy and i need some advice.



Xaric
12-05-2013, 18:12
Ok I have played 40k for over 3 months now and I was watching some fantasy games play out and it looks very interesting with formations and movement so I have gone out and got the books needed I played Chaos daemons for 40k and I love horror's so my chosen army is daemons of chaos under the watchful eye of tzeentch so there's the insight to who I will be playing.

I see how the layout of army's are way different compared to 40k being percentages based and formation based but the units I can choose are (in the order of the fantasy book)

(Name of the unit) (Pro's) (Con's) (Detail why)

Kairos Fateweaver
Lord of Change
Daemon Prince
The Blue Scribes
The Changeling
Herald of Tzeentch
Pink Horror's
Flamers
Screamers
Burning Chariot

Now the way I have it lay-out can you please tell me there pro's there con's and detail's why you think this.

Don Zeko
12-05-2013, 19:55
Unfortunately, Tzeentch daemons aren't very competitive in the new book. The only core choice on your list, horrors, are expensive troops that fight poorly. In return, their units are wizards, but they can only use the tzeentch lore of magic, which is very bad. Also, with only tzeentch units you'll find that you won't have any good close combat heavy hitters. And unlike in 40K, having something, somewhere, that can fight in melee is pretty much non-negotiable in Fantasy. So the short version here is that mono-Tzeentch daemons are just not a good idea in the new book. I'd recommend trying something else so that you don't wind up several hundred dollars poorer and very frustrated with the hobby.

Xaric
12-05-2013, 20:07
Surely they can't be that bad there must be a glimmer of gold somewhere inside the book afterall that's the hole point of a wargame is to find out how to best employ your troops :) ill have to do a lot of research.

sepulchre
12-05-2013, 20:11
Sadly, he is right. I would recommend a mix of daemons, because you will be in combat at some point of the game, and if you only have units that are crap at combat, than you are out of luck.

Don Zeko
12-05-2013, 20:30
Surely they can't be that bad there must be a glimmer of gold somewhere inside the book afterall that's the hole point of a wargame is to find out how to best employ your troops :) ill have to do a lot of research.

Many of these units are fine...as support elements to a multi-god army. But going mono-tzeentch is setting yourself up for disaster. With all tzeentch, you will have no battleline, just units that can shoot and cast and a handful of units that can kill skirmishers and chaff. Back in 7th Edition the tzeentch magic gunline was a power build, but with the new book and the winds of magic roll rather than power dice generation, it's unplayable. Ordinarily I'd be all for telling somebody to play the army that appeals to them, even if it's one of the weaker armies like wood elves, brettonians, or tomb kings. But what you're suggesting is playing warhammer with an army that is totally incapable of fighting in close combat while not being maneuverable or shooty enough to play the avoidance game. You need to rethink things.

NitrosOkay
12-05-2013, 20:40
You guys are dream crushers.

The new book really didn't help Tzeentch much though.

Xaric
12-05-2013, 21:31
I see where you are coming at but what about the tzeentch rule when casting spells of tzeentch you can spawn a new horror or screamer still wondering how that works? (located ontop of the spells of tzeentch page?)

selecta
12-05-2013, 21:46
It is imposible to have a mono tzeentch army and very differcult to play which is a shame.

Xaric
12-05-2013, 21:55
there must be somthing that everyone is overlooking and when i find it tzeentch will be proud :D

NitrosOkay
12-05-2013, 22:10
Just looking at the book you can see some obvious problems.

The Lore of Tzeentch isn't that great. Some of the spells are good (treason of tzeentch) but the warpflame rule is a big problem when shooting at hordes. The problem being the reward and punishment for the toughness test are wildly inconsistent. D3 wounds vs 40 models and some characters gaining stacking regeneration is obviously lopsided. Shooting at a small unit makes more sense except warpflame is on stuff like Tzeentch's firestorm and pink fire which are obviously meant to target big units.

That isn't to say it's all bad, if you can land some of the big templates in the middle of a unit and roll a 6 for your strength lore of tzeentch can annihilate things it just won't do that most of the time. Glean Magic can be nasty too but has the warpflame problem. If you go all lore of tzeentch you get lots of free horrors but unfortunately horrors are poor in close combat.

Lord of Change with wand of whimsy is your obvious Lord choice, Lore of Metal can be pretty decent and after a few magic phases you can tear things up in close combat. The Heralds are so fragile and so overpriced you may find you don't get much out of them before they die. +1S to spells sounds great until you look at the point cost.

Horrors are expensive core that aren't good in close combat and can use your magic dice. I'm not sure what the design intent behind these was.

Screamers are a good choice at least. Flamers will really struggle to justify an investment in them due to low damage output and the warpflame problem although if you're only shooting at small units it's not a big issue.

Burning Chariot has the problem of a really short range and questionable damage potential while being easy to kill.

Xaric
12-05-2013, 22:22
i will have to take all this information and find a solution to boost the power it looks like blue scribe is a must have in a mono-tzeentch army because of its ability's. also did you add that horrors turn into blue horrors and the possibility of them all coming back on a 1/1 dice roll of Ld test? because i had to keep reminding a person who showed me daemons with fantasy i feel its one of those rules that people keep forgetting to remember ill be sure to look into slaanesh units because they seem the most likly to ally themselfs with tzeentch.

Morrslieb
12-05-2013, 22:22
I deny mono-Tzeentch army being impossible I do agree it being hard to play (I'd still pick this book over previous any time).
Main problem is the core, while being fun and fluffy (I really missed blue horrors) pink horrors are worst core choise pointwise, even when being 10+ wound wizard.
No problem with special or rare though. Screamers and Soul Grinder are quite nice, and flamers (after nerf) and chariot are fine. Even furies have their uses.

Something besides fluff reasons not to make mixed list (focus on Tzeentch)?

Xaric
12-05-2013, 22:36
i picked tzeentch because i love magic and tzeentch fluff made me pick his army over the other god's

NitrosOkay
12-05-2013, 22:53
ill be sure to look into slaanesh units because they seem the most likly to ally themselfs with tzeentch.

I feel like an army with a Lord of Change, Screamers, Tzeentch Soul Grinder, Flamers and Daemonette core could work.

NurglesRot
13-05-2013, 00:08
If you really want to an army with that sort of theme, you can always find ways to make it work. Don't always listen to the internet crowd that condemns half a book because it's not the 'optimal' choice. Yes, some units may be weaker than others in terms of raw stats but you can always find ways to make them work. This edition of Warhammer has had it's army book releases centered strongly around combos and making units work together.

Don Zeko
13-05-2013, 00:16
If you really want to an army with that sort of theme, you can always find ways to make it work. Don't always listen to the internet crowd that condemns half a book because it's not the 'optimal' choice. Yes, some units may be weaker than others in terms of raw stats but you can always find ways to make them work. This edition of Warhammer has had it's army book releases centered strongly around combos and making units work together.

Look, I have no problem with not-completely-optimal choices, but if somebody's going to throw hundreds of dollars at an army with a very restrictive theme in mind, he needs to know what he's getting into. What exactly is a tzeentch army supposed to look like? What units actualy want to fight things in CC? Is his line supposed to consist entirely of two soul grinders and a greater daemon?

NurglesRot
13-05-2013, 01:38
My comment wasn't directed as an attack against you mate, sorry if it came across that way.

It is a good point that he should look at the army he wants to build before investing a large sum of money into it, but there are ways you can make it work. Pure Tzeentch will have a tough time in CC but other phases in the game can compensate.

Don Zeko
13-05-2013, 03:15
My comment wasn't directed as an attack against you mate, sorry if it came across that way.

It is a good point that he should look at the army he wants to build before investing a large sum of money into it, but there are ways you can make it work. Pure Tzeentch will have a tough time in CC but other phases in the game can compensate.

No worries dude, I was a bit shorter than I should have been. And as I said, in general I agree with your approach. I don't want to be one of those guys that says "no, you can't play tomb kings or beastmen because they're terrible," because I don't think they're actually so bad that you can't have fun with the army. But I think that when you limit yourself to mono-god Tzeentch, you really are setting yourself up for failure and frustration in a way that's very unfortunate. Now apparently folks disagree, so here's what I would suggest. See if you can get some proxy games in first. If you are happy enough with the results to move forward, great! If not, spend your $400 elsehwere.

NurglesRot
13-05-2013, 04:14
See if you can get some proxy games in first. If you are happy enough with the results to move forward, great! If not, spend your $400 elsehwere.

Well said! And this is exactly what I do for all my armies before I buy a single model. Proxy some games and see what you think. It might look great/terrible on paper but until you've played a few games and gain a feel for how the army would play then you can make up your mind.

Xaric
13-05-2013, 05:15
Ok ive lost loads of games in 40k (mostly because i miss read or forget rule's) but over each loss i have learn new thing's and i have started to win but i have learned a lot now when i roll bad i make a funny kind of thing that my unit cast a spell and showered him in flowers :D

I have a question can i join the blue scribes with a group of pink horrors?

danny-d-b
13-05-2013, 05:49
can I surgest if your looking for a magic heavy army look in to lizards (their just about to get a new book), high elves (just got a new book), Dark elves or vampire- all 4 can be very magic heavy successfully

lizards have possibly the best wizard in the game right now-a slan who ignores miss casts and can effectively get +4 dice per phase is very very nasty, high elves have some nice magic items and rules and their lore while not being the most amazing can be quiet good, Dark elves can have a massive magic phase with the sacrificial dagger to blast through enermy's defences while vampire magic makes the rest of their poor army level with the rest of the playing field- while their caracters and stuff rip through everything else

however magic this edition is very hit or miss- play a few proxy games before bringing out magic spam cos if your first 3 magic phases and double 1s then your going to not like playing magic heavy armys

NurglesRot
13-05-2013, 06:31
You may be disappointed if you invest in a Lizardmen army and go for all the nasty tricks they have right now. If they do indeed get a new book this year (very likely) then I'd expect half of the magic items they have right now that makes them so nasty to get removed.

Don Zeko
13-05-2013, 06:40
You may be disappointed if you invest in a Lizardmen army and go for all the nasty tricks they have right now. If they do indeed get a new book this year (very likely) then I'd expect half of the magic items they have right now that makes them so nasty to get removed.

Yep. The rumormongers have Lizards redone in August or September, followed by maybe Dark Elves in November. If you don't feel like gambling on a new army book, the best choices would be armies that have already received an 8th Edition book (O&G, Ogres, Empire, Warriors, Daemons, Tomb Kings, Vampires, High Elves) or armies that are scheduled to not get books anytime soon (Beastmen, Skaven, Bretts, Wood Elves - Poor bastards).

Ero-Senin
13-05-2013, 09:58
Are you dead set on Daemons? As I think warriors would work really well for you as a Tzeentch army is more than plausable (second only to Nurgle IMO) you could even ally with Daemons or use some of the Tamurkhan rules that allow beastmen, chaos dwarfs and Daemons in a warrior army.

The French Guy
13-05-2013, 10:18
Best advice for your question since the beginning of this thread IMO, you should consider it deeply. :)

Wechselbalg
13-05-2013, 12:15
I am building my mono Tzeentch army right now and I am willing to not lose every game with it. This army wont go to tournaments so soon but I donīt think itīs that bad.
Point wise I donīt play less than 2250 points so the options are a bit better I think. I will include pretty much every Tzeentch unit and using special characters since I play unrestricted games. It will be a tough challenge thatīs pretty much a given fact but it should work out I am pretty sure. For now my list includes:

Lord of Change (maybe using Kairos instead)
Herald on disk
Blue Scribes
x2 blocks of 20-30 horrors (more will be added)
x1 units of 6flamers
x2 units of 3 screamers

I will add two chariots I guess or using two grinders we will see. In the end I will try both and I guess the grinders will work out better.

Lore of Tzeentch is somewhat nice I think. The "drawback" is no real treat imho since I can add a flaming banner for no costs and be done with this "problem". This list will drown my enemy with magic until I can use my pretty much non existent melee units to grind him down. The LoC is not the worst fighter and adding those heralds to my units might spice them up enough. I will add two heralds to the unit of horrors that is meant to "fight" and hope enough S to get an advantage but thatīs it pretty much with my theory hammer the rest will be learned from losses. :D

Metacarpi
13-05-2013, 13:40
My 2 cents:

Warpflame isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It's one test per unit affected. Focus your fire, and only one unit will be taking that test, and it only gets the ward on a 6.

Yeah, it's a pain when it happens, but you're not going to be tossing out ward saves to the enemy left, right and centre every turn if you're sensible.

Ero-Senin
13-05-2013, 13:46
My 2 cents:

Warpflame isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It's one test per unit affected. Focus your fire, and only one unit will be taking that test, and it only gets the ward on a 6.

Yeah, it's a pain when it happens, but you're not going to be tossing out ward saves to the enemy left, right and centre every turn if you're sensible.

Just to point out it is a regen save and not a ward save (they are different) and it stacks so you could end up giving them 5+, 4+ or even 3+ regen in the end. I do agree to a certain extent that it isn't as bad as people make out it's just not a sgood as the other chaos lores or the brb lores. Used well it can still be effective.

Metacarpi
13-05-2013, 14:17
Just to point out it is a regen save and not a ward save (they are different) and it stacks so you could end up giving them 5+, 4+ or even 3+ regen in the end. I do agree to a certain extent that it isn't as bad as people make out it's just not a sgood as the other chaos lores or the brb lores. Used well it can still be effective.

I knew it stacked, but I didn't realise it was regen, my bad!

Ero-Senin
13-05-2013, 14:33
I knew it stacked, but I didn't realise it was regen, my bad!

Yeah, it would actually be quite good if warpflame was flaming as it would counter the regen (I thought this was the original intention but GW faq says no!)

Xaric
13-05-2013, 15:07
I like the idea of chaos with spells makes the game more fun and another reason I like tzeentch is because you have to think on the fly and not plan 20 steps ahead also it go's in hand to hand you become very unpredictable to your foe if done correctly specially with the blue scribes because you can roll a flame lore :D

Ero-Senin
13-05-2013, 15:31
I like the idea of chaos with spells makes the game more fun and another reason I like tzeentch is because you have to think on the fly and not plan 20 steps ahead also it go's in hand to hand you become very unpredictable to your foe if done correctly specially with the blue scribes because you can roll a flame lore :D

Still, i would say look at Chaos warriors as they make a really cool tzeentch army

Xaric
13-05-2013, 16:08
can you do alliance with daemons and warriors?

The French Guy
13-05-2013, 16:35
As Ero-Senin told you above:
"Are you dead set on Daemons? As I think warriors would work really well for you as a Tzeentch army is more than plausable (second only to Nurgle IMO) you could even ally with Daemons or use some of the Tamurkhan rules that allow beastmen, chaos dwarfs and Daemons in a warrior army."

Hope it helps! ;)

Wechselbalg
13-05-2013, 17:32
I like the idea of chaos with spells makes the game more fun and another reason I like tzeentch is because you have to think on the fly and not plan 20 steps ahead also it go's in hand to hand you become very unpredictable to your foe if done correctly specially with the blue scribes because you can roll a flame lore :D

One of the reasons I am building my mono Tzeentch army and you dont need to roll the lore, just pick fire and roll your spell. Blue Scribes are awesome - fluffwise! Ingame they are ok but since I rarely play non themed armies and love the Blue Scribes they will rock on the table as well :D
Besides that, you can always take a flaming banner with you and "counter" the warpflames.

Ero-Senin
14-05-2013, 08:10
can you do alliance with daemons and warriors?

Depends on a couple of things really. I would always say yes but some tournements are very strict on their ally rules. If you are mainly playing friendly games I would say warriors and daemons together is really characterful and really cool. You can also play them as a combined army (a little different from allies) if you get the Tamurkhan book and use some of those rules, they allow combining of warriors, beastmen, chaos dwarfs and daemons.

quietus1986
24-05-2013, 04:14
dubbel post

quietus1986
24-05-2013, 04:20
Im building a mono slanesh army. And even that will be a hard one to play ( but im usto playing hard to play army's )
And if you want to play that army juist play it and learn wat u can from it. i play a vampire count army themed rond stregoi ( on tournements and on averige I end in the middel of low middel )
and think a bout a demon prince.
juist don't count on winning a lot with any mono god army every mono god choas army has weaknesses

Danny76
24-05-2013, 10:29
It is imposible to have a mono tzeentch army and very differcult to play which is a shame.

Nothing ia impossible.
Though yes they have taken a hit.

Regarding the Lore of Tzeentch that everyone is harping on about being bad, go check out that Tzeentch Lore thread that's cropped up. There are some great ideas and takes in there on it.

Competitive tournaments, probably not best for this. But themed games or general relaxed play. They do ok and are great fun. But that's all about having the right group to play with..

Myster2
24-05-2013, 16:24
You can also look at this thread for some information:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?372861-Lore-of-Tzeentch-not-that-shabby-after-all

him_15
25-05-2013, 01:39
Tzeentch army is meant to support the other gods, mono Tzeentch is too restricted when you could select a lots more daemon. In the fantasy war you could see close combat in turn 2 (Cavalry, Fast Cavalry, Flyer) and the rest of the entire armies in turn 3. There is really not enough time to shoot/magic them dead before they land their blow (Tzeentch daemon fight as poor as zombie and likewsie can't retreat).

bigbiggles
25-05-2013, 18:00
I tried playing a no no tzneetch army once...it was....interesting. I got 13+ channels a turn(sometimes almost 3 extra power die!). Eventually survived the game with just my lord of change. The horrors ended up doing nothing but channel all game. There was no power dice left for them after the lord goes. And once in combat, they rarely do much but stall the enemy. And the blue horrors rule seemed like fun when I started, I thought I was going to catch my opponent off gaurd with it. It was a surprise for the first few combats, but by turn 6 it had only accounted for 1 wound, if that. So overall, it was fun. But every other daemon list I have made was much more powerful