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ArtificerArmour
28-05-2006, 15:48
Ooooh look at me, actually starting a serious thread. Well. Kinda.

We all know we can spend ages looking at armys, deciding evil combinations and abuse of rules.

Ohhh, I can take a command squad with 4 plasma guns! etc.

I'm just wondering, has anyone ever made a unit or character that "in theory can..." do a lot of damage.

Only for that combination to do absolutely nothing in game.

Mine personally is my commander with a storm bolter. 24 inch range, cool. Assualt 2? awesome.

Roll to hit...ah.

Mine hasn't even hit anything with his storm bolter, never mind killed anything.

Yet I converted the bugger up, and I'mm be damned if I drop him or change it.

So, has anyone else experienced the wierd sensation of a unit wasting their potential constantly?

bluebugs
28-05-2006, 16:20
the devil fex never did wonders for me. What's that? Yuo say 8 strength 6 shots that re-roll to hit AND wound-well who cares if it doesn't have an AP. Those guardsmen can really pass those 5+ saves and I couldn't even take down one sentinal. Let alone the 9 he had.

ZigZagMan
28-05-2006, 17:17
I have a Chaos lord in my lost and damned/proxy genestealer cult , all he does is provide Fearlessness 6" around him and has rending. No 2+ save or anything.

Serpent
28-05-2006, 17:24
In theory, my Wulfen unit should do some damage against marines. They have a habit of not doing any, though...

There's also the "über-killer-Wolf Guard Leader (of Doom, naturally)" with Lightning Claws and a Wolf Tooth Necklace. Five attacks on the charge. Did he do any damage charging into a unit of Immortals? Did he heck... :rolleyes:

Serpent

boogle
28-05-2006, 17:59
My Whole Drop Troop army, they always have a lot of destructive potential, however they nearly always end up scattering too far or coming down piecemeal (like last week, when i lost over 2 Veteran squads to bad Deep Strikes, and had 1 squad a turn turn up, where he got all of his tanks on turn 2)

ffclubhero
28-05-2006, 19:03
Taking Plasma Cannons to an Autocannon fight hurts. :(

Nurglitch
28-05-2006, 19:08
If something doesn't work in reality like it does on paper, chances are it doesn't work on paper either.

Bloodthirster90
28-05-2006, 19:32
It's sods law. it works on paper, but not in practice. On paper, communism worked, but in practice, it was stuffed up.

Nurglitch
28-05-2006, 19:43
That's my point: if it doesn't work in practice then it didn't actually work on paper either. Take "communism" for example: Marxism didn't work on paper in the first place, and neither did Marxist-Leninism (classic USSR-style "communism"), but damned if you can ever find people who've actually read Das Kapital or What is to Be Done?. The failure of its implementation simply highlights the fact that it didn't work in theory.

The same goes for Warhammer 40k core rules and codicies: many analyses of these rules fail in practice because they failed to account for practice. But most analyses, that I've seen at least, fail on paper and you don't need to watch them fail on the game board to know they're bad theories.

Chem-Dog
28-05-2006, 20:01
Nuglitch has a good point, But Communism didn't fail from a bunch of bad dice rolls.
I have a friend who is one of my very few regular opponants, he's my best bud and we have always enjoyed battling together. Over time a catlogue of bizzare happenstances build up here are a few that fallloosely under the category of "Good on Paper"
1) 75+points Aspiring champion who's first action of the game was to cook his arm off with a plasmapistol, so insired were his squad mates that his Plasmagunner did the same thing. So did the nearby Chaos lord, three "Gets hot" rolls and 3 failed Armour saves.
2) Huge Squad of Chaos Terminators failing to show up, all Game. Turns out they weren't needed though, I was wiped out to a man anyway.
3) Devestator squad unloading everything at an open topped Sentinel squadron for want of a better target and subsequently failing to hit or penetrate with anything.
4) Second Edition 40K Tooled up Chaos lord (you know, all four Marks, Terminator Armour ect etc) Wiped out pre-Game, along with almost his entire retinue, by IG Prelim Barrage. 2+ save on 2D6.........

Lastie
28-05-2006, 20:06
On paper my Dark Blade-wielding Chaos Lord, with her fairly impressive (although considering what's possible with the Chaos 'dex, slightly underpowered) six attacks on the charge, all at Strength 6 and ignoring Armour Saves (and this is after Wind of Chaos has softened things up a bit), should dish out the damage.

Not really. Unless I beg and promise after-game chocolate, then she does something, much to the amusement of everyone else.

Nurglitch
28-05-2006, 20:14
Chem-dog: Considering dice rolls happen in Warhammer 40k, even rolls of "1", you have to take the possible results of those dice rolls into account before you can honestly say that any plan involving them looks good on paper.

When I still played Warhammer 40k I used to secretly look forward to playing people that played by the statistical averages, because those never actually happen in a game (when was the last time you killed 1.2 marines?), and so I could usually benefit by playing the risky high-return moves.

Lastie: So either your plan includes after-game chocolate, or doesn't include where and when your Chaos Lord needs to be to put that close combat power to good use. At least that's my first impression.

Mad_Max
28-05-2006, 23:21
6 man (9 before) sqd with lascannon, in 20+ games not a single kill (i've kept a record after the first 10 games so it isn't just talk) keeps rolling 1-2 to hit and when i finaly hit i roll a 1 to wound(for infantry) or below armour for vehicles, so i concluded that the lascannon armed marine was cursed...
got myself a new one, nice conversions and other stuff on it, spent a game(7 turns) shooting at a russ, didn't even scratch it, not even a stunned!

so my conclution is that lascannons dont work...

Lyinar
28-05-2006, 23:42
That's why you should play an ultra-shooty Ork army... you expect them not to hit anything, and when your fifty-plus shots from your maxed-out More-Dakka-and-Big-Shootaz Flash Gitz in their Battlewagon annihilate a squad of Marines, then you can brag about it. ;)

cailus
29-05-2006, 00:16
6 man (9 before) sqd with lascannon, in 20+ games not a single kill (i've kept a record after the first 10 games so it isn't just talk) keeps rolling 1-2 to hit and when i finaly hit i roll a 1 to wound(for infantry) or below armour for vehicles, so i concluded that the lascannon armed marine was cursed...
got myself a new one, nice conversions and other stuff on it, spent a game(7 turns) shooting at a russ, didn't even scratch it, not even a stunned!

so my conclution is that lascannons dont work...

My brother is a Chaos Word Bearer player and found that his solitary lascannon armed Marine couldn't hit a barn from 10 feet. So he painted litanies on the lascannon and the thing is now an unholy terror killing everything from tanks, dreadnoughts and Tau battlesuits.

Morgrad
29-05-2006, 00:33
A good buddy of mine has a squad of three Heavy Destroyers that we now refer to as "the 'tards".

In our first game, all three shot all 6 turns and caused 1 wound. In today's tournament I ended up playing against him for the 1st place slot. Turn 1 they cause 2 wounds (which is what they should do *every* turn), turn 2 they hit twice and rolled snakeeyes to wound, turn 3 (2 left alive) they hit once and failed to wound, turn 4 they hit once, wounded once, and I made my cover save, and then on my turn 4 I killed 'em.

I told him not to capture the souls of idiots in his necrons, but the C'tan apparently have a sense of humour. =)

Corn Berserker
29-05-2006, 01:02
My Whole Drop Troop army, they always have a lot of destructive potential, however they nearly always end up scattering too far or coming down piecemeal (like last week, when i lost over 2 Veteran squads to bad Deep Strikes, and had 1 squad a turn turn up, where he got all of his tanks on turn 2)

Surely historic accounts of D-Day would have tought you this would happen anyway?

Smoking Frog
29-05-2006, 12:42
Surely historic accounts of D-Day would have tought you this would happen anyway?

So they deep striked onto the five beaches with their drop pods and supporting thunderhawks while the entrenched Chaos Space Marines heavy boltered their....

Yeah, i've said lamer, so rack off! :p


Six tactical squads and bare minimum leaders, command squads and assault squads look nice on paper, but look even nicer as bloodied battlefield terrain!

Tonberry
29-05-2006, 12:52
On paper lots of plasma guns looks like death to horrid Ultra smurfs.
1st turn, about a third overheat, leaving me with piles of molten plague marine everywhere.

azimaith
29-05-2006, 12:54
Off-topic, I know, but Necrons don't have souls.
The Necrontyr did, and he bound their essence into that particular body. Though its not a soul by a stretch, souls being warp attached.

Kymar
29-05-2006, 19:20
I can never get a Swooping Hawk Exarch with Sustained Assault to keep hitting. I may get an extra roll for every sucessful hit, but at best I'll make about 7 hits till every dice comes up as a miss. Other people tell me they can easily get a dozen to 2 dozen attack out of it.
I just don't get it. :wtf:

Ixidor10024
29-05-2006, 22:09
So they deep striked onto the five beaches with their drop pods and supporting thunderhawks while the entrenched Chaos Space Marines heavy boltered their....


Off topic I know but before the beach landings paratroopers were dropped in to "soften" the defences up. The planes came under heavy fire and the paratroopers were dropped all over the place which is what he was referring to.

unwanted
29-05-2006, 23:04
I can never get a Swooping Hawk Exarch with Sustained Assault to keep hitting. I may get an extra roll for every sucessful hit, but at best I'll make about 7 hits till every dice comes up as a miss. Other people tell me they can easily get a dozen to 2 dozen attack out of it.
I just don't get it. :wtf:
Loaded dice ;)

But yeah, I never, ever do much planning, as it reallydoesn't suit my armies:

My Orks, though militaristic and hungry for war, is still Orks!
And frankly, Anarchistical rats never were the best planners!

(Though clanrats are apparently able to easily beat Ironbreakers and other dwarves, as well as giants :wtf: (sorry for trailing off into fantasy;) ))

NaT
30-05-2006, 02:25
Wolf Guard. Master-crafted ass. cannons.
750 point Wolf guard assault squad of doom in LRC (1k points in total).

Obviously the 6 las/plas + 9 ass cannon SM armies.

Killgore
30-05-2006, 09:25
My Brightlances in my Eldar army seemed a good idea.... Untill they managed to NOT destroy a single vehicle during the entire game

same goes for a Prism Cannon, played a game against one a few days ago and it failed to hit during the entire game!

Sir_Turalyon
30-05-2006, 10:10
"Looks good on paper but never worked because of bad rolls":
Vindicare assasin. Mine almost never hit anything, and of few hits none wounded anything.

"Looks powerfull buh has flaws"
Flashy gits with blasta (or what was AP upgrade called). In theory, you have whole squad armed with AP2/3 12" rapidfire weapons, nightmare of every Marine player. In practice, due to new get hot rules and BS 2, when you rapidfire you hit as many of your orcs as targets - and when you are shooting Space Marines, your orcs save on 6+ and marines are wounded on 4+... so you kill 5 of your boyz for each 3 marines.

Warriors in Incubi bodyguard. They look nice at first glance, providing cheap wounds for ablative shield and splinter cannons... except units including them is much easier to be brought understrength and flee.



That's my point: if it doesn't work in practice then it didn't actually work on paper either. Take "communism" for example: Marxism didn't work on paper in the first place, and neither did Marxist-Leninism (classic USSR-style "communism"), but damned if you can ever find people who've actually read Das Kapital or What is to Be Done?. The failure of its implementation simply highlights the fact that it didn't work in theory.


Not exacly. Marxism did work in theory, but was making assumptions that were impossible to implement. It was kind of "if we have wonderous device that makes food out of thin air, we can feed everyone" theory - true, but useless so long as we have no such device.

Marxism assumed that economists are able to calculate exact amount of goods needeed by people per year - then goverment can plan exact amount of each good to produce, produce exact amounts of goods and share them, thus minimalizing working effort, avoiding under and over production and all that troublesome market.

Of course, unless your economists have an oracle in basement, it's not possible for them to make such an accurate prognose. But o inptimistic XIX century it looked obvious to laics, and believable to mathemathicans, that everything is eventualy computable. Marx never bothered about was how are amounts to be calculated; these were technical problems left to economists themselves. So, his theory works.

All you need to implement it is an economist with accurate oracle in basement.

DarkstarSabre
30-05-2006, 10:14
Hmm.

Yes, a Chaos Lord fully kitted up with Lightning Claws, Spiky Bits, Furious Assault, Master Crafting, Mutation, Terminator armour and all sorts of niceness was a good idea on paper.

Until he died in combat to a grot. Having failed to kill a single thing.

Scamshouse
30-05-2006, 12:23
Sorry to go off topic and rehash the start of this thread but I just read this and it made me LOL! :D
Thanks Chemdog for supplying me a Sig.


Nuglitch has a good point, But Communism didn't fail from a bunch of bad dice rolls.

russian
30-05-2006, 13:10
the army which doesnt work on paper but does in the game is the uber shootyness of orkish death, those rokkit buggys are lethal, may armys normally fall flat ont heir face unless itool it up to win a comp of some sort since i always end up going theme over decent army selection

Master Jeridian
30-05-2006, 14:37
When I still played Warhammer 40k I used to secretly look forward to playing people that played by the statistical averages, because those never actually happen in a game (when was the last time you killed 1.2 marines?), and so I could usually benefit by playing the risky high-return moves.

Really?
I liked to play against those who believed statistics was rubbish, then predict accurately how many guys would die from their attacks- much to their annoyance.

So you charged 20 or so Hormies, 40 attacks, I'll lose 2-3 Marines...

azimaith
30-05-2006, 14:42
Statistics do work, they simply don't necessarily always pan out in a single game, but if you took into account the basic features of the dice (pip dice rather than painted dice should technically roll slightly more 6's than 1's because the 1's side is weighted heavier as it has a few less milligrams of plastic there) and the way you roll them, over several games, it will equal out.

People who don't believe in statistics are alot like people who don't believe in global warming or evolution in my opinion.

bluebugs
30-05-2006, 17:35
it's not that satistics are rubbish. they're just only good for planning what units to bring and their gear. i'll take two obliterators in my word beares force. they should be able to knock out vindicators with lascannons, marines with plasmas and almost anything they come in conact with. however out of the 4 games i've used them they haven't done a damn thing. does that mean i will drop them? no, they have potential. we've all rolled about 5 1s in a row. i've gotten 3 6s for armor saves when that's what my character needed to survive ( 3 wounds reduced to a 6+ save-fantasy). my point is that if you point out a squad with bolters and say about 1.2315 marines will die. aside from decimals your probably way off anyway. there is a dice god, i seriously believe it.

Nurglitch
30-05-2006, 17:56
All you need to implement it is an economist with accurate oracle in basement. And therefore it doesn't work. Thank you for discrediting your position for me so I don't have to. ;)

I liked to play against those who believed statistics was rubbish, then predict accurately how many guys would die from their attacks- much to their annoyance. There's a serious difference between those that think statistics is "rubbish" and those who know that the sample of dice rolls in a game of Warhammer 40k is statistically insignificant.

But I've heard people brag about doing this before. Never seen it happen, and statistically speaking it's highly unlikely, not to mention incredibly rude. I hope I never play against someone like you, because I'll have a better time solo-gaming. Seriously, calling dice rolls in a game? What a lame thing to do.

purerockfury
30-05-2006, 22:31
my favorite was a friend who played eldar. got an exarch with sustained assault (as long as you hit you get another attack and can keep going). with a high weapon skill he should get 15 hits in easy. wrong..... lucky to get 5 hits let alone kill something. damn strength 3 power weapons.

i've also found out any re-rolls for armour saves don't work either. at least not that i've seen yet. and when faced with taken a 2+ save or a 5+ save with a termie it's best to take the 5+.

Corn Berserker
31-05-2006, 00:28
i've also found out any re-rolls for armour saves don't work either. at least not that i've seen yet. and when faced with taken a 2+ save or a 5+ save with a termie it's best to take the 5+.

Maybe I'm just not reading this right but you choose a 5+ when your 2+ is still usable?!

minibutmighty
31-05-2006, 13:22
I agree with nurglitch in that if a unit does not function how one envisages it to in practice, then your theoretical (on paper) assesment of the unit is way off, or you were right on paper just that in battlefield circumstances they either could not be employed as they should or just failed to fulfil that role due to carefully calculated PROBABILITIES proving not to be CERTAINTIES (A common mistake of theoryhammer fans) But this thread is about those misjudgements and mishaps, not the reasoning itself.

And in my case I am guilty of dreaming of 3 warwalkers with starcannons being guided. Such raw offensive potential, such mobility, such crappy armour if they or the rest of the army don't annihilate anything that could potentially have LOS to them. Such a waste of 300 points........

ArtificerArmour
31-05-2006, 20:05
Maybe I'm just not reading this right but you choose a 5+ when your 2+ is still usable?!

I think he means that he passes his less common, ap2 or 1 weapon induced, 5+ invulnerables more often than his 2+ regular saves

Dakkagor
31-05-2006, 20:15
indeed. My terminators often waltz through lazcannon fire like its gentle summer rain, then get cut down by lasgun wielding guard like its the fire of heaven.

edit: w00t! 500th post!

Master Jeridian
01-06-2006, 15:40
But I've heard people brag about doing this before. Never seen it happen, and statistically speaking it's highly unlikely, not to mention incredibly rude. I hope I never play against someone like you, because I'll have a better time solo-gaming. Seriously, calling dice rolls in a game? What a lame thing to do.

Well I'm dubious of people that play with themselves, ahem, but how is that lame?
My guessing at the results does not mutate the shape of the dice to my will. Most often I don't voice these calculations out loud, but they are there, and they are of great benefit in me knowing roughly how many of my guys will die to a persons shooting- I can plan accordingly.

It also prevents 'deer in headlights' mentality- when you see a Nid player with two handfulls of Hormagaunt attack dice, if you didn't know half of them miss, 2/3rds of them fail to wound, and 2/3rds of them are saved, you may panic (this against Marines).

It is true that the smaller the sample number the less likely my results are to come true- making a single dice roll (such as a lascannon shot) difficult to predict, but it is by no means impossible. This just smacks of someone desperate to believe the illusion that events in their life are not controlled by outside physical laws and controls- a grasping for free will.

So how exactly do you conduct a game of 40k? Even unconsciously you must judge the likely amount of casualties someones attack may cause, this is using probability based on past experience of the same types of attack- otherwise you'd blindly walk into every fire lane oblivious to what may happen.

Also, I don't mean to belittle peoples heroic tales of Termies that shrug of lascannon fire all the time, etc. This may be true, you may be on the 'lucky' end of a statistic- with someone else never passing a save for them. But it is more likely in other circumstances that human conditioning comes into effect- memory isn't perfect and infinitie, the brain must use it efficiently. So in games of 40k we only remember abnormal, or extraordinary events- such as Termies passing a string of 5+ saves. We don't remember the other times when they failed more than average as this is not as important and noteworthy.

We don't remember every dice roll ever made, just the noteworthy or exceptional.

Nurglitch
02-06-2006, 00:53
Well I'm dubious of people that play with themselves, ahem, but how is that lame? Read the post again, carefully. If anything gives you trouble, please refer to www.dictionary.com.