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Grndhog89
16-05-2013, 19:12
As the title says, it really seems to me as though Nurgle and Tzeentch don't loathe one another to the same extent Khorne and Slaanesh loathe one another. Thoughts? Evidence to counter this?

canucklhead
16-05-2013, 19:24
If I had to think of a reason in favour of that, perhaps it is because both Khorne and Slaanesh represent those particular emotions, hatred, and jealousy (or at least desire taken to it's extreme limit). Therefore, their hatred of each other is potentially the most intense rivalry in existence, if only because it has to be.

Azulthar
16-05-2013, 19:41
In the old fluff, Nurgle was despair while Tzeentch was ambition/hope. They were diametrically opposed emotions: when confronted with adversity, do you accept and endure your fate (Nurgle) or strife to change it (Tzeentch)? I honestly found their opposition more interesting than Khorne/Slaanesh...is Rage really the opposite of Pleasure?


Today, Nurgle seems to be more about defiance, which is its own kind of hope in a way, and his opposition to Tzeentch is not as strong. The latest Daemon codex implies that their rivalry comes more from them fighting over second place (behind Khorne).

Retrospectus
16-05-2013, 21:11
seeing as khorne is the embodiment of anger and hate I'd imagine it would be very hard to hate something more than he does

Scribe of Khorne
16-05-2013, 21:19
Khorne/Slaanesh is more Death vs Life...

Latro_
16-05-2013, 21:46
I always imagine the rivalry more on a front line hatred kinda like grunts trying to impress their patron and the actual gods as entities are more like a club or brotherhood who dont 'hate' one another but love their underlings fighting each other in like a big game of one upmanship, occasionally leading a cheeky hand.

Its a bit like playing a game of 40k you and your opponents are the chaos gods and you imagine your models hate the enemy, you dont hate your opponent (i hope!) but you love beating him, bragging rights etc...

thats how i see chaos.

Grndhog89
16-05-2013, 21:51
In the old fluff, Nurgle was despair while Tzeentch was ambition/hope. They were diametrically opposed emotions: when confronted with adversity, do you accept and endure your fate (Nurgle) or strife to change it (Tzeentch)? I honestly found their opposition more interesting than Khorne/Slaanesh...is Rage really the opposite of Pleasure?


Today, Nurgle seems to be more about defiance, which is its own kind of hope in a way, and his opposition to Tzeentch is not as strong. The latest Daemon codex implies that their rivalry comes more from them fighting over second place (behind Khorne).

Azulthar, I half remember your comment on how Nurgle has changed in a thread about the Daemons dex. I personally want to subscribe to Nurgle being about stagnation than this defiance thing. That would bug me a lot if Nurgle canonically changed to be about defiance and similar to Tzeentch. I hope thats just liberal interpretation.

Bubble Ghost
16-05-2013, 22:27
The opposition of Khorne and Slaanesh is about the fact that personal indulgence is incompatible with selfless devotion to an ideal. Slaanesh vs. Khorne is luxury vs. asceticism, complete opposite ends of a spectrum.

Nurgle has always been about stubborn defiance of the inevitable, which as folks have noted is why he doesn't get on with Tzeentch. Nurgle followers prepare to endure catastrophe, while Tzeentch followers act to avert it. Again, mutually exclusive.

Baaltor
16-05-2013, 22:27
In the old fluff, Nurgle was despair while Tzeentch was ambition/hope. They were diametrically opposed emotions: when confronted with adversity, do you accept and endure your fate (Nurgle) or strife to change it (Tzeentch)? I honestly found their opposition more interesting than Khorne/Slaanesh...is Rage really the opposite of Pleasure?

Today, Nurgle seems to be more about defiance, which is its own kind of hope in a way, and his opposition to Tzeentch is not as strong. The latest Daemon codex implies that their rivalry comes more from them fighting over second place (behind Khorne).

Khorne is the god of devotion, stoicism and sacrifice; whereas Slaanesh is selfishness, pleasure and indulgence.


Khorne/Slaanesh is more Death vs Life...

But Nergal is the god of Death.

dangerboyjim
16-05-2013, 23:38
I always thought it was Tzeentch/Khorne - Nurgle/Slaanesh that had the beefs

Tzeentch lord of magic and manipulation, prefer to manipulate others to achieve his goals/ Khorne lord of martial prowess, eschews magic, subterfuge and generally anything that isn't a direct chain axe to the face

Slaanesh lord of pleasure and personal perfection, prefers followers to strive for perfection/ Nurgle lord of decay, prefers followers to accept entropy and really let themselves go. I mean, really.


Did it change or am I mad?

theunwantedbeing
16-05-2013, 23:46
Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other?
Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other?

But...Khorne is rage, Tzeentch is magic, Nurgle is disease and Slaanesh is boobs.

How can those things hate each other? :angel:

Cooper97
16-05-2013, 23:46
i think that considering that khorne is the god of hate he would kind of make any relationship pretty hard to deal with. I feel sorry for anyone who meets him and if he has a wife, i really feel sorry for her. The relationship between khorne ans slaanesh is terrible so i don't think that the relationship between Nurgle and Tzeentch can't be as bad.

Grndhog89
17-05-2013, 00:52
I feel sorry for anyone who meets him and if he has a wife, i really feel sorry for her.

Ah, if only Khorne had gotten Isha as his wife instead of Nurgle getting her.

Calcabrina
17-05-2013, 02:48
The issue is that Tzeentch and Nurgle operate more subtley, and it tends to be more about each one thwarting the plans of the other rather than the actual combat that Khorne and Slaanesh came to during the devouring of the Eldar pantheon.

Basically, the opposing forces are:

Nurgle/Tzeentch: Entropy vs Change
Khorne/Slaanesh: Rage vs Decadence

Slaanesh is a really difficult god to pin down an exact "domain" for because of the truly adult nature of its workings, and how GW has had to spin it at one time or another to maintain a kid-friendly approach. The way I like to think of it is that Slaanesh embodies 6 of the 7 deadly sins (funny that Slaanesh's holy number is 6?) while Khorne is lord of the remaining one, wrath. That disparity alone can do much to explain the rivalry between the two.

OuroborosTriumphant
17-05-2013, 07:17
I'd call them Hatred vs. Desire and Hope vs. Despair.

I'd say Tzeentch and Nurgle are just as opposed and just as at odds with each other. But no, there isn't as much hatred in that relationship because Khorne is the god of hatred and rage.

Sternguard777
17-05-2013, 16:18
I always thought it was Tzeentch/Khorne - Nurgle/Slaanesh that had the beefs

Tzeentch lord of magic and manipulation, prefer to manipulate others to achieve his goals/ Khorne lord of martial prowess, eschews magic, subterfuge and generally anything that isn't a direct chain axe to the face

Slaanesh lord of pleasure and personal perfection, prefers followers to strive for perfection/ Nurgle lord of decay, prefers followers to accept entropy and really let themselves go. I mean, really.


Did it change or am I mad?

The Main rivalry has always been Khorne/Slaanesh Tzeentch/Nurgle but you're not wrong. There is a lesser rivalry between Tzeentch/Khorne. I think a Nurgle/Slaanesh rivalry exists but you don't hear about it as much as Khorne/Slaanesh, Tzeentch/Nurgle, or even Khorne/Tzeentch.

gwarsh41
17-05-2013, 20:11
In the old fluff, Nurgle was despair while Tzeentch was ambition/hope. They were diametrically opposed emotions: when confronted with adversity, do you accept and endure your fate (Nurgle) or strife to change it (Tzeentch)? I honestly found their opposition more interesting than Khorne/Slaanesh...is Rage really the opposite of Pleasure?


Today, Nurgle seems to be more about defiance, which is its own kind of hope in a way, and his opposition to Tzeentch is not as strong. The latest Daemon codex implies that their rivalry comes more from them fighting over second place (behind Khorne).


The current book doesn't really mention what emotion Tzeentch and Nurgle are. The old fluff is as you mentioned, and I liked it a lot. These days they just say Tzeentch is change and Nurgle is decay. You could go as far as to say Tzeentch gets his rocks off from emotional change, while nurgle gets his puss boiling for emotional decay (pretty much still despair) I thought at one point, Tzeentch was the most powerful, as everything changes all the time. All gods are powering tzeentch even if they do not mean to. Nurgle would also draw from all death, where slaanesh and Khorne only can gain power from the living. I thought slaanesh was the weakest, but had potential to be the strongest, thus all gods hated slaanesh.

As for a current slaanesh / nurgle hatred. Neither have a good reason to hate each other. Maybe nurgle isn't fabulous enough for slaanesh?

Chaos gods high school drama...

Mit Gas
18-05-2013, 00:21
Concerning their levels of power: Khorne is said to be the strongest, Tzeentch might sooner or later (definitely later if at all) "overthrow" him (if his plans come into fruition) and Nurgle's power rises and falls, sometimes even surpassing the other 3 - like a sickness that gets worse and then better. Slaanesh seems to be the weakest as he's also the youngest. I can't remember where I got that info but I think it's from an old Chaos WHFB armybook.

Really enjoyed reading this thread.

What I always found fascinating is that the lures/qualities of the Chaos Gods are not exactly evil per se and that even good, honest and hard-working people could easily fall prey to those emotions - whether they seek perfection or the strength to endure. In my opinion, GW kiddifies Chaos too much these days - the road to damnation is long and might've started as something good. The longer one travels it, the more he gets twisted, the more he becomes what people consider a Chaos Space Marine (or traitor or Chaos knight etc.). At the end they might be frothing madmen or disturbing hedonists but it all started quite innocent. From one's desire to become better, to one's desire to provide, defend, make it through hard times or change the bad things in one's life.

That is the beauty of the Chaos Gods! :)

JWhex
18-05-2013, 02:38
I always thought it was Tzeentch/Khorne - Nurgle/Slaanesh that had the beefs

Tzeentch lord of magic and manipulation, prefer to manipulate others to achieve his goals/ Khorne lord of martial prowess, eschews magic, subterfuge and generally anything that isn't a direct chain axe to the face

Slaanesh lord of pleasure and personal perfection, prefers followers to strive for perfection/ Nurgle lord of decay, prefers followers to accept entropy and really let themselves go. I mean, really.


Did it change or am I mad?

It did not change, you just have it wrong.

NitrosOkay
18-05-2013, 04:06
You can still find nods to the old fluff.

In the new Daemons 40k book it mentions that Tzeentch would "See hopes thrive" as opposed to Nurgle. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.

The 8th Edition Warhammer Fantasy rulebook outright says Tzeentch is "hope" and Nurgle is "despair".

Tzeentch and Nurgle hate eachother just as much as Khorne and Slaanesh do.

Ssilmath
18-05-2013, 04:33
Concerning their levels of power: Khorne is said to be the strongest, Tzeentch might sooner or later (definitely later if at all) "overthrow" him (if his plans come into fruition) and Nurgle's power rises and falls, sometimes even surpassing the other 3 - like a sickness that gets worse and then better. Slaanesh seems to be the weakest as he's also the youngest. I can't remember where I got that info but I think it's from an old Chaos WHFB armybook.

Really enjoyed reading this thread.

What I always found fascinating is that the lures/qualities of the Chaos Gods are not exactly evil per se and that even good, honest and hard-working people could easily fall prey to those emotions - whether they seek perfection or the strength to endure. In my opinion, GW kiddifies Chaos too much these days - the road to damnation is long and might've started as something good. The longer one travels it, the more he gets twisted, the more he becomes what people consider a Chaos Space Marine (or traitor or Chaos knight etc.). At the end they might be frothing madmen or disturbing hedonists but it all started quite innocent. From one's desire to become better, to one's desire to provide, defend, make it through hard times or change the bad things in one's life.

That is the beauty of the Chaos Gods! :)

That is almost the point of Chaos. Even Horus felt he was righteously justified when he began his rebellion, but by the time he realized just what his actions were he was beyond the point of caring. Every mother who whispers a prayer for her sick child has opened her heart to Nurgle, every champion defending his people through bloodshed glorifies Khorne. For every madman selling his soul for temporary power, there is an innocent or pure person starting down the road to damnation. For Chaos consumes all, no matter the intent.

Yup, I love my factions background.