PDA

View Full Version : Elves and always strike first



Lance Tankmen
19-05-2013, 18:55
i bought the new high elf book and noticed they all have always strike first, no racial rule for high elves only but simply ASF, which as i play Dark elves made me wonder if they will simply give all elves ASF to make up for T3 across the board, as an elf trait rather than a high elf trait. Now when i stated this idea to my gaming group i was told in no reasonable terms highly unlikely, one of them even plays DE too yet couldnt grasp the chance that maybe all elven races will gain ASF. From a logical stand point, every elf is just as fast as the next hence all elves getting ASF, rather than just one race of them. yet from a balance point of view, I wonder how that would affect the other two elven races? your guys thoughts?

Lord Inquisitor
19-05-2013, 18:59
I doubt it. What we might see is a move from army rules to listing the rule in their profile. Dark Elves might have Hatred on their profile not as an army-wide rule, whereas Wood Elves might have Forest Strider listed under their unit special rules rather than an army rule.

Phaeron Setek
19-05-2013, 19:05
I don't see it happening. There seems to be a general trend in both fantasy and 40k to try and give each army their own identity, so army-wide rules and/or army majority rules seem to be tailored to specific armies.

Phenatix
19-05-2013, 19:40
i bought the new high elf book and noticed they all have always strike first, no racial rule for high elves only but simply ASF, which as i play Dark elves made me wonder if they will simply give all elves ASF to make up for T3 across the board, as an elf trait rather than a high elf trait. Now when i stated this idea to my gaming group i was told in no reasonable terms highly unlikely, one of them even plays DE too yet couldnt grasp the chance that maybe all elven races will gain ASF. From a logical stand point, every elf is just as fast as the next hence all elves getting ASF, rather than just one race of them. yet from a balance point of view, I wonder how that would affect the other two elven races? your guys thoughts?

I would like to see it. The HE "training" explains their Martial Prowess. ASF allows the army to compensate for T3 and low armor saves. Your point is valid that all elves should be equally as fast, they're elves. WE can have forest strider as well as their move + shoot without penalty things. Dark Elves can have something like poison, or maybe killing blow/+1 Strength when they charge. All elven races should share in the Initiative 5 Always Strike First though.

Unless of course, a High Elf archer should get to attack a Wood Elf war dancer before the WE can strike.

JWhex
19-05-2013, 19:55
I dont see why T3 is the reason to give a unit ASF. Elves are far from the only models that have T3.

I dont think you can predict much of what design team will do these days. They overcompensate, undercompensate, invent whacky rules and incredibly unbalanced units (good and bad).

Spiney Norman
19-05-2013, 20:35
I think it would make very good sense for ASF to be a racial trait, it never made particularly good sense that high elves were naturally faster than the wood or dark varieties, as though somehow living in Loren or Naggaroth had drastically slowed down their reactions.

On the other hand it would make just as good sense to abolish ASF for all the high elf units and just let elves' high int values put them at the top of the order, ASF granting rerolls is maybe the dumbest thing ever as it was really just an inapproriate excuse to boost HE fighting power in 8th edition.

Vipoid
19-05-2013, 20:49
I don't see it happening.

However, from what I've heard, it seems like something that should either apply to all elves or apply to none.

Considering that it it no longer fulfils its original purpose, I don't see why it needed to still be an army-wide rule for HEs in 8th.

Knifeparty
19-05-2013, 20:59
All elves will get ASF for sure. I can almost guarantee it will happen, and if I'm wrong well feel free to dredge this thread up and quote me on it.

High Elves: ASF, Martial Prowess

Dark Elves: ASF, Possibly army wide armour piercing

Wood Elves: ASF, No move and shoot penalty

theunwantedbeing
19-05-2013, 21:17
It would make sense for ASF to be a racial trait for all elves now High elves have it without it being an armywide rule.

I still can't see GW actually following through with this idea though.

Lord Inquisitor
19-05-2013, 21:39
Considering that it it no longer fulfils its original purpose, I don't see why it needed to still be an army-wide rule for HEs in 8th.

Or, indeed, a rule at all. You strike first? How about a high Initiative?

Always Strike First was made to encompass all the items that allowed you to trumph the "chargers go first" rules in previous editions of Warhammer. Since all attacks go in initiative order now, it really didn't have a function beyond making the model strike at initiative 11. ASF re-rolls were only introduced to maintain backwards-compatibility and now most of the units with ASF have been redone, what is its function?

Might as well have taken ASF away from High Elves and given all elves Hatred. :rolleyes:

Bladelord
19-05-2013, 22:14
ASF shouldn't even be in the game, there are stats like initiave to show how fast a unit is afterall...
I think GW easily could use their stats system a little better instead of shoving useless rules into our throats (most special rules are okay but some are just weird [ASF]).

IcedCrow
19-05-2013, 22:19
I agree. That's what the initiative stat is for.

HereComesTomorrow
19-05-2013, 22:20
I don't see it happening. It's more likely Dark Elfs will all have Hatred instead.

Fallenturtle
19-05-2013, 22:22
As a dark elf player, I personally don't see us getting ASF (that's more of a high elf thing). I think we'll get actual eternal hatred (hatred in all rounds of combat) and maybe Marital prowess (that itself seems more of an elven racial rule). So far part 1 of 3 rumors on the elven race came true (high elves becoming the "ward save elves") so it'll make sense that dark elves will get something to make them the "hard hitting" elves..

IcedCrow
19-05-2013, 22:24
it also depends on who writes the book.

if its mat ward, who knows where the dark elves will go. maybe they'll get a cool banner of the eternal spiked dildo that will give them a 2++ save against high elves and cause terror in them as well. It should have a slaanesh symbol on it for ironic lulz.

boli
19-05-2013, 22:31
As a dark elf player, I personally don't see us getting ASF (that's more of a high elf thing). I think we'll get actual eternal hatred (hatred in all rounds of combat) and maybe Marital prowess (that itself seems more of an elven racial rule). So far part 1 of 3 rumors on the elven race came true (high elves becoming the "ward save elves") so it'll make sense that dark elves will get something to make them the "hard hitting" elves..

Nah DEs getting slaves ;)

Kahadras
19-05-2013, 22:49
I don't think so. ASF on HE has always been pushed as representing the large amount of training each unit goes though. I certainly think some elite DE and WE units should get ASF but not army wide. I just see DE and WE as not being as dedicated towards training as a unit; Wood Elves prefer ranged combat while Dark Elves are driven by hatred.

Kahadras

The Low King
19-05-2013, 23:13
1) Elves will not get ASF because they are toughness 3, lots of other armies suffer from that problem.
2) Dark elves have hatred already (and are strong anyway), Woodelves are not meant to be a combat army (at least not the elf units).
3) In the same way that the Empire and Brettonia don't have rules in common I cant see them making 'racial' rules.

So I don't think the other elf armies will get ASF

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 08:57
Or, indeed, a rule at all. You strike first? How about a high Initiative?

Always Strike First was made to encompass all the items that allowed you to trumph the "chargers go first" rules in previous editions of Warhammer. Since all attacks go in initiative order now, it really didn't have a function beyond making the model strike at initiative 11. ASF re-rolls were only introduced to maintain backwards-compatibility and now most of the units with ASF have been redone, what is its function?

Might as well have taken ASF away from High Elves and given all elves Hatred. :rolleyes:

Exactly.

The thing is, if it needed an extra ability to make it worthwhile, then it makes the original ability pointless. Why not just scrap the part we don't need (the ASF part), and keep the useful part as a different ability. Oh, wait - we already did - it's called Infinite Hatred.

What really annoys me is that they made a rule that's basically Infinite Hatred +1.

boli
20-05-2013, 09:34
The most powerful thing about ASF is the re-roll which dark elves have already; with base initiative 5 you are only going second to high elves anyways. Only executioners have 2-handed weapons; whilst frustrating it is not the end of the world maybe executioners will get ASF but I do not think the entire army will.

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 09:45
The most powerful thing about ASF is the re-roll which dark elves have already; with base initiative 5 you are only going second to high elves anyways. Only executioners have 2-handed weapons; whilst frustrating it is not the end of the world maybe executioners will get ASF but I do not think the entire army will.

Well, Hatred could be replaced with ASF.

Deathjester99
20-05-2013, 09:52
ASF still has a point, though. Initiative also has other uses. For instance, ASF enables the rules to have a unit which is lightning fast (I 11) in close combat, while being less quick/agile/dextrous outside combat.

It also enables a unit to hit very often (due to re-rolls), but still not be harder to hit than their WS dictates.

Whether the High Elves need this ruling or not is an other debate of course, but the ASF rule is not redundant. My opinion on the High Elves is that these rules do make them more "strike hard, strike fast, but die easily" due to the second "effect" stated above, and to some extent the first.

boli
20-05-2013, 09:54
Dark Elves hate; its their "thing" everywhere in their lore, history their very being is dark elves are elves who hate a lot - so eternal hatred or hatred standard rule is pretty much going to stay and balances ASF quite well from high elves now High elves lost re-rolls from great weapons. My biggest concern has and sadly always will be for wood elves you can't simply say wood elves never get into combat and shoot stuff with bows they have perhaps one of the coolest units in the game lore and model wise. Wardancers.

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 10:11
ASF still has a point, though. Initiative also has other uses. For instance, ASF enables the rules to have a unit which is lightning fast (I 11) in close combat, while being less quick/agile/dextrous outside combat.

To me that makes no sense.

If a unit has fast reflexes (or some equivalent) in combat, then surely it has fast reflexes all the time - not just in combat.


It also enables a unit to hit very often (due to re-rolls), but still not be harder to hit than their WS dictates.


How exactly does that differ from Hatred? :eyebrows:

The Low King
20-05-2013, 10:31
My biggest concern has and sadly always will be for wood elves you can't simply say wood elves never get into combat and shoot stuff with bows they have perhaps one of the coolest units in the game lore and model wise. Wardancers.

Wardancers can already have ASF, it is one of their dances. The only reason it is not a great dance is because the book is outdated, it is from when ASF worked differently.
Just about every woodelf wishlisting thread, Fan made army book or other discussion have wardancers getting ASF. However, the rest of their army is not going to.


How exactly does that differ from Hatred? :eyebrows:

Fluff wise.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 10:47
I'm not sure Dark Elves need an army wide trait aside from the one they already have. What makes them such a strong army already is that their stuff is a lot cheaper than the High Elven equivalents, as well as some of the strongest magic items/units you can find (Pendant of Kaeleth, the War Hydra, etc). If anything, Dark Elves will be toned down - particularly in terms of their magic dominance - to match up alongside High Elves. You could say that Dark Elves being cheaper than High Elves is their second "army wide special rule". High Elves have these special rules for a reason; as much as ASF may irk most, it serves a purpose next to Martial Prowess to justify their high cost per model despite being Toughness 3 models with little armour. Without it, they would either need a points drop - which wouldn't fit their elite theme - or have another army wide special rule.

As for Wood Elves, I would expect universal Quick to Fire and Forest Strider.

boli
20-05-2013, 10:52
Wardancers can already have ASF, it is one of their dances. true, but as you said completely different game from when they got the rule; it was more an irritation that by default wood elves are not getting re-rolls as the elves are not meant to see combat and only tree spirits. The DE and HE armies disprove that.

GlenMorray
20-05-2013, 11:01
Ok so we take away ASF and the banner, how's about we strip them of armour and weapons and while we're at it magic and Dragons, THEN throw them to the Ogres...

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 11:03
Ok so we take away ASF and the banner, how's about we strip them of armour and weapons and while we're at it magic and Dragons, THEN throw them to the Ogres...

Wow, I think that goes beyond a mere Strawman, and into Wicker-Man territory...

The Low King
20-05-2013, 11:06
it was more an irritation that by default wood elves are not getting re-rolls as the elves are not meant to see combat and only tree spirits. The DE and HE armies disprove that.

It is true though.
High Elves and dark elves getting rerolls/ASF affects the majority of their army.
Woodelves get ASF across the army and the only units that really benefit are Wardancers, Eternal Guard and Wild riders. Eternal Guard already rely on special rules to work (their weapons/stubborn) and don't need even more. Wild riders and wardancers are the ones that might need them, and I don't think it fits wild riders. Wardancers are probably going to get the rule specific to them anyway.
The rest of the army is either shooting units that you want avoiding combat or tree spirits (though dryads could get access to hatred or something)

boli
20-05-2013, 11:18
That is only a recent addition tho; at least for me initially wood elves were about a strike force which just used archers as their core units instead of spears or halbadiers; similar to what dark elves are now with repeating crossbowmen. Currently if it doesn't take root once a year it should never get into combat which is very irritating.

WE shoudl get ASF but on the turn they charge *ONLY* that and rerolls to wound on the turn they charge as well could really bring the three elven races to a similar kneel.

Deathjester99
20-05-2013, 11:29
To me that makes no sense.

If a unit has fast reflexes (or some equivalent) in combat, then surely it has fast reflexes all the time - not just in combat.


Makes perfect sense to me, both in theory and practice. Sure, there is bound to be a connection, and it'd be weird if you were slow and clumsy while very fast in combat. But still, having good reflexes is not down to speed only, it is also down to reading opponents and reacting fast to a pattern, a sign, a movement - and this comes with training in that particular area.

For example, I'm a fairly accomplished badminton player, with good reflexes when it comes to returning fast smashes. I am however not, seemingly, very quick, when it comes to other sports, or daily life (well, I don't get to test my reflexes too often in daily life.. :-) )

With a lot of combat training, you will react a lot faster, just because you think faster. That does not mean that you necessarily react as quick when it comes to dodging something out of combat.

As to infinite hatred - that doesn't let you strike first. And the fluff is all wrong (but I wouldn't mind if hatred gave you a S-bonus, or charge-bonus instead of hit bonus, but that's just wishing).

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 11:39
Makes perfect sense to me, both in theory and practice. Sure, there is bound to be a connection, and it'd be weird if you were slow and clumsy while very fast in combat. But still, having good reflexes is not down to speed only, it is also down to reading opponents and reacting fast to a pattern, a sign, a movement - and this comes with training in that particular area.

For example, I'm a fairly accomplished badminton player, with good reflexes when it comes to returning fast smashes. I am however not, seemingly, very quick, when it comes to other sports, or daily life (well, I don't get to test my reflexes too often in daily life.. :-) )

With a lot of combat training, you will react a lot faster, just because you think faster. That does not mean that you necessarily react as quick when it comes to dodging something out of combat.

Let me put this another way then - isn't initiative in combat exactly what the initiative stat represents?

What's the point of even having a scale, just to let models, or entire armies ignore that scale entirely?



As to infinite hatred - that doesn't let you strike first.

But we were talking about the rerolls alone. The ASF aspect could be accomplished just as well with high initiative.

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2013, 11:48
I'm not sure Dark Elves need an army wide trait aside from the one they already have.
Sam goes for the high elves with their Martial prowess rule.


What makes them such a strong army already is that their stuff is a lot cheaper than the High Elven equivalents,

A lot cheaper?
You mean you pay 9pts minimum for a model, we pay 6pts.
And you ignore the fact that your 9pt model has a sheild, fights in an extra rank and has ASF...all of which are worth a point per model.

Bolt thrower? 30pts less than the DE equivalent.
Shadow warriors? 2pts less than the DE equivalent with cheaper command upgrades
Ellyrian Reavers? 1pt less, with much cheaper upgrades

White Lions and Swordmasters?
Both 1pt more than Executionairs, but more survivable vs shooting as well as having ASF and fighting in an extra rank

Noble? 10pts cheaper than his DE counterpart
Mage? 15pts cheaper than their counterpart
Mage Lord? 50pts cheaper
Bolt Thrower? 30pts cheaper

So the argument that dark elves are way cheaper is utter nonsense, in a lot of cases it is the High Elves that are the cheaper choice and those that are more expensive pay very little for their extra rank of supporting attacks and ASF, far less than they should be.

Same sort of deal with Wood Elves.
Glade guard are 2pts more than their HE counterparts
Glade Riders are 4pts more (7pts base if you really want to go down that route)
Wardancers are 5pts more than White Lions or Swordmasters
Great eagles cost the same but canot be taken in units
Noble, 5pts more
Mage, 5pts more
Lord, 5pts more
Mage Lord, 40pts more

So why are Wood elves not vastly less expensive than High Elves?

The other elven armies need ASF way wayyy more than the High Elves do.
They won't get it though (IMHO).

the_picto
20-05-2013, 11:52
I think both wood and dark elves should get ASF and it wouldn't surprise me if they do. If a high elf archer can get ASF then a wood elf archer should as well. Martial prowess seems like the high elf thing, while ASF seems more of an elven thing.

Tau_player001
20-05-2013, 12:08
Let me put this another way then - isn't initiative in combat exactly what the initiative stat represents?

What's the point of even having a scale, just to let models, or entire armies ignore that scale entirely?


That's only one army (or 3 if this happens to be truth, but ASF introduced in 3 different armies doesn't make them the same tho). If every army had that option, i would agree with you since the stat would be there only to decide who can reroll, but it's one army out of many. It's, along the ward saves and one extra support rank, the unique gameplay of HE who can use 2handed weapons like nobody else. I don't see it as a problem of design, since it adds uniqueness to each army gameplay, which is something they have quite accomplished in the last edition in a very good way with the books created this edition (with very few exceptions).


@theunwantedbeing You are comparing a 7th edition book with a 8th edition book. Yes, **** is very overprived in wood elven book, we know it. (By the way the 7th edition bolt thrower from DE, it's T7 W3, while the HE is T6 and W2 in 8th, hence the point drop).

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 12:18
That's only one army (or 3 if this happens to be truth, but ASF introduced in 3 different armies doesn't make them the same tho). If every army had that option, i would agree with you since the stat would be there only to decide who can reroll, but it's one army out of many.

But why is it necessary at all?

Let's focus on the ASF part of ASF. If every model with ASF had I10 instead, would that really be so bad?

Oh no, you now strike simultaneously with other models with I10 - what a drawback. :eyebrows:

I mean, even I5-6 (which elves already have) lets you strike before about 90-95% of all units in the game.

I just don't see why ASF is such a necessary rule.

The Low King
20-05-2013, 12:25
That is only a recent addition tho; at least for me initially wood elves were about a strike force which just used archers as their core units instead of spears or halbadiers; similar to what dark elves are now with repeating crossbowmen. Currently if it doesn't take root once a year it should never get into combat which is very irritating.

WE shoudl get ASF but on the turn they charge *ONLY* that and rerolls to wound on the turn they charge as well could really bring the three elven races to a similar kneel.

For prolonged combat (what this edition is much more about) you need to be survivable and only Forest spirits (high toughness and ward save) or Eternal Guard with a Harp Highborn can manage that.
The main army thing however is being the best archers in the world, that is a major part of their fluff. Woodelf fluff almost always has them avoiding any direct or extended confrontation, hit and run, ambush and a constant rain of arrows are the name of the game for them. No part of their fluff has archers just to fill core.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 12:48
Sam goes for the high elves with their Martial prowess rule.



A lot cheaper?
You mean you pay 9pts minimum for a model, we pay 6pts.
And you ignore the fact that your 9pt model has a sheild, fights in an extra rank and has ASF...all of which are worth a point per model.

Bolt thrower? 30pts less than the DE equivalent.
Shadow warriors? 2pts less than the DE equivalent with cheaper command upgrades
Ellyrian Reavers? 1pt less, with much cheaper upgrades

White Lions and Swordmasters?
Both 1pt more than Executionairs, but more survivable vs shooting as well as having ASF and fighting in an extra rank

Noble? 10pts cheaper than his DE counterpart
Mage? 15pts cheaper than their counterpart
Mage Lord? 50pts cheaper
Bolt Thrower? 30pts cheaper

So the argument that dark elves are way cheaper is utter nonsense, in a lot of cases it is the High Elves that are the cheaper choice and those that are more expensive pay very little for their extra rank of supporting attacks and ASF, far less than they should be.

Same sort of deal with Wood Elves.
Glade guard are 2pts more than their HE counterparts
Glade Riders are 4pts more (7pts base if you really want to go down that route)
Wardancers are 5pts more than White Lions or Swordmasters
Great eagles cost the same but canot be taken in units
Noble, 5pts more
Mage, 5pts more
Lord, 5pts more
Mage Lord, 40pts more

So why are Wood elves not vastly less expensive than High Elves?

The other elven armies need ASF way wayyy more than the High Elves do.
They won't get it though (IMHO).

High Elves are meant to be the elite of the elite amongst all races. Simply having ASF wasn't good enough to represent that without making them cheaper.

I was more talking about when the two had an army book released in the same edition for the same set of rules, as it actually was the case back then before High Elves were re-released. Those cheaper units you speak of only became so in the new army book, ergo, your post really didn't consider the context of mine. Dark Elves are being re-done soon, in which case I expect their units to be brought more in line. Mentioning Wood Elves is similarly silly because their army book is what, two editions old now? Also, when it comes to High Elf Spearmen, most will tell you that they pay more points for them to do the same thing - die in droves. I personally think they are fine though.

Dark Elves are mostly fine, but War Hydras are ludicrously good for their points, that and Dark Elves have some insane magic items like the Pendant that will definitely be brought back a notch. They weren't considered part of the "broken 7th trio" (alongside Daemons and Vampires) for nothing, after all.

CrystalSphere
20-05-2013, 12:58
I hoped that the ASF rule would be removed from the HE armybook in this edition, because i consider it a bad 7th edition bandage, that fixes nothing and is agaisnt the background. I think ASF effects have a place as a magic induced thing, but Initiative should be used more than it is currently, like ASL being replaced from greatweapons by -2I. I guess GW does not want to go back to the 3rd edition formula and prefers the simplicity of the always last and always first rules.

Now the HE have already got ASF, and i think the only way to balance it is to give it to all elves, otherwise the gameplay-background segregation would be just silly. I would like to see ASF given to all elves, even if it doesn´t make much sense. However i fear that we will be seeing obnoxious rules like those of 7th, and not ASF for all elves.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 13:05
I hoped that the ASF rule would be removed from the HE armybook in this edition, because i consider it a bad 7th edition bandage, that fixes nothing and is agaisnt the background. I think ASF effects have a place as a magic induced thing, but Initiative should be used more than it is currently, like ASL being replaced from greatweapons by -2I. I guess GW does not want to go back to the 3rd edition formula and prefers the simplicity of the always last and always first rules.

Now the HE have already got ASF, and i think the only way to balance it is to give it to all elves, otherwise the gameplay-background segregation would be just silly. I would like to see ASF given to all elves, even if it doesn´t make much sense. However i fear that we will be seeing obnoxious rules like those of 7th, and not ASF for all elves.

Isn't the popular choice for Dark Elves army-wide poison or armour piercing? The former would be fine, the latter would be a bit over the top.
I guess the problem with High Elves was that losing ASF means they would have to re-cost a lot of the army and make them significantly cheaper, which wouldn't fit the elite motif. I'm not sure what would have fit better; maybe striking at Initiative regardless of negative modifiers? Sword Masters could have kept Speed of Asuryan.

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 13:17
Isn't the popular choice for Dark Elves army-wide poison or armour piercing? The former would be fine, the latter would be a bit over the top.

I guess this is an aside, but I find your choice of words interesting. of the two, I'd have considered Poison the stronger choice. :p

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2013, 13:19
@theunwantedbeing You are comparing a 7th edition book with a 8th edition book. Yes, **** is very overprived in wood elven book, we know it.
Well I can't exactly compare it to the 8th edition DE and WE books can I?


(By the way the 7th edition bolt thrower from DE, it's T7 W3, while the HE is T6 and W2 in 8th, hence the point drop).
Er no.
The HE bolt thrower is To7 and has 2 crew.
The DE bolt thrower is To7 and has 2 crew.
Both are exactly as tough as each other as the 2 crew are the wounds for a war machine.

The reason the point drop exists is because 100pts is way overpriced for a bolt thrower in this edition.
My point still stands that the High Elves are not vastly more expensive than the other elves as a reason for only them getting ASF, they aren't even vastly more expensive anyway.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 13:25
I guess this is an aside, but I find your choice of words interesting. of the two, I'd have considered Poison the stronger choice. :p

Haha I forgot most Dark Elves were Strength 3 :) In that case, yeah I agree.


Well I can't exactly compare it to the 8th edition DE and WE books can I?


Er no.
The HE bolt thrower is To7 and has 2 crew.
The DE bolt thrower is To7 and has 2 crew.
Both are exactly as tough as each other as the crew are the wounds for a war machine.

The reason the point drop exists is because 100pts is way overpriced for a bolt thrower in this edition.
My point still stands that the High Elves are not vastly more expensive than the other elves as a reason for only them getting ASF.

Hence why your post wasn't really appropriate. You were attacking my opinion which was based on how High Elves and Dark Elves were balanced against each other when the two last had release parity (7th Edition). To make up for the lack of High Elves ASF, Dark Elves had much cheaper units for the most part - and some clearly over-powered ones (the Hydra chief among them) - hence my indication that it was sort of an "army trait" already, at least when compared to High Elves. ASF was designed with 7th Edition in mind so that High Elves could kill enemies and actually deny them striking back (no step up rule), hence why when 8th Edition came out the step up and increasingly popular large blocks of infantry meant that ASF re-rolls weren't as useful as has been made out. My Spearmen die just as easily as yours and do only slightly more damage. The best example was the comparison between Archers and Repeater Crossbowmen, and the disparity between the two still exists to this day.

Vipoid
20-05-2013, 13:34
Haha I forgot most Dark Elves were Strength 3 :) In that case, yeah I agree.

On a related note, isn't Armour Piercing already associated with Slaanesh?

Not sure how much difference this makes, but it seems like something to consider when discussing an army-wide rule for DEs.

The Low King
20-05-2013, 13:41
My Spearmen die just as easily as yours and do only slightly more damage.

Fighting in an extra rank means 33% more damage than any other unit armies with spears in the same formation, 50% more than units with just hand weapons.
ASF means that they do 50% more damage every round than most units and 50% more damage every round other than the first compared to Dark elves. (not to mention being able to do it before the enemy strikes)
That is much greater than 'slightly more' damage.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 13:47
From my meta stand-point - which I probably should have specified was what I was referring to - almost everyone has Warriors of Chaos or Ogres and thus I still wound on fives and am lucky to kill even one rank before their front two ranks butcher me just as easily as they do Dark Elf Spearmen.

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2013, 13:48
Hence why your post wasn't really appropriate.
You said the High elves were way more expensive than the Dark elves,
I merely pointed out with examples how that was nonsense.


The best example was the comparison between Archers and Repeater Crossbowmen, and the disparity between the two still exists to this day.
What disparity? They're very close in capability.
At long range, the HE archers can land on average 0.5 hits per model, compared to the 0.66 the DE crossbowmen can manage.
At short range these both go up to 0.66 and 1 respectively.
The DE's have the edge at sub 24" ranges, simply down to having multiple shot weapons and armour piercing (which gives them the edge in the 12-15" overlap, despite the same number of hits).
That said, in combat the HE's have the advantage because they get re-rolls vs anything in5 or less, every single turn and fight in an extra rank. Plus due to the martial prowess rule they're actually better suited to being deployed in more ranks, so have a better static combat res to start with.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 13:59
You said the High elves were way more expensive than the Dark elves,
I merely pointed out with examples how that was nonsense.


What disparity? They're very close in capability.
At long range, the HE archers can land on average 0.5 hits per model, compared to the 0.66 the DE crossbowmen can manage.
At short range these both go up to 0.66 and 1 respectively.
The DE's have the edge at sub 24" ranges, simply down to having multiple shot weapons and armour piercing (which gives them the edge in the 12-15" overlap, despite the same number of hits).
That said, in combat the HE's have the advantage because they get re-rolls vs anything in5 or less, every single turn and fight in an extra rank. Plus due to the martial prowess rule they're actually better suited to being deployed in more ranks, so have a better static combat res to start with.

In 7th Edition, those units you said are so much cheaper than their Dark Elf equivalents weren't, which was how they balanced out High Elves having Always Strikes First. Executioners were, what, three or four points cheaper than Sword Masters and White Lions, right? Not as strong obviously, but they nonetheless embodied that trait that they were less effective, but much cheaper than their High Elven equivalents. Hence why I inferred that when Dark Elves were redone, their units would become cheaper again to reflect on some High Elf units becoming cheaper. That was my point; at the time, they were cheaper, and they will be again with a book update.

The disparity comes from Archers being more expensive (at the time) and having a weaker ranged weapon; the repeater crossbow has double the shots and armour piercing. Repeater Crossbowmen also don't have to pay for light armour and can even take shields for a pittance that makes them a decently effective melee unit much like the new High Elven Archers with Martial Prowess. It is less so now, but nonetheless, outside of melee I would be hard pressed to want Archers over Repeater Crossbowmen.

It is interesting to see some different opinions though. I am used to High Elf players' opinions where they feel most of their units pay for special rules they don't need!

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 14:05
On a related note, isn't Armour Piercing already associated with Slaanesh?

Not sure how much difference this makes, but it seems like something to consider when discussing an army-wide rule for DEs.

Yep. Would make for a fluffy addition.

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2013, 14:08
It is less so now, but nonetheless, outside of melee I would be hard pressed to want Archers over Repeater Crossbowmen.
:rolleyes:
You don't say.

Obviously you'de want the better shooting option if all you were ever going to do with it is shoot.
That's why DE crossbowmen cost the same as HE archers, but are better shots but worse in combat.

It's hardly "disparity", it's called balance.
HE archers would be considerably cheaper if they didn't get to fight in 3 ranks with ASF.

The Low King
20-05-2013, 14:09
Hence why I inferred that when Dark Elves were redone, their units would become cheaper again to reflect on some High Elf units becoming cheaper. That was my point; at the time, they were cheaper, and they will be again with a book update.


High elf units went down in price because they weakened them because they can no longer get ASF regardless of weapon.
If dark elf units go down in price it will be because they lose hatred or something.
Plus, dark elves were much stronger than high elves in both 7th and 8th, so one could argue that they were too cheap.

Learn2Eel
20-05-2013, 14:18
:rolleyes:
You don't say.

Obviously you'de want the better shooting option if all you were ever going to do with it is shoot.
That's why DE crossbowmen cost the same as HE archers, but are better shots but worse in combat.

It's hardly "disparity", it's called balance.
HE archers would be considerably cheaper if they didn't get to fight in 3 ranks with ASF.

Yes, I really want Strength three Elves with no armour/6+ armour in combat just because they fight in three ranks and strike first. What exactly do you expect them to do? At least with shields the Repeater Crossbowmen will stick around longer and be the same price as the Archers with light armour. They will both die horribly in combat and do very little damage against anything that your opponent wouldn't already be prepared to lose, hence why many players feel they are paying for rules they don't need. Look at High Elf Mages; they are paying for ASF when they don't need it, at all. Well, unless you take a magic weapon for that awesome....one attack :cool: The main reason Archers have Martial Prowess is firing in three ranks, but their shooting is still out performed by Repeater Crossbowmen of similar points.


High elf units went down in price because they weakened them because they can no longer get ASF regardless of weapon.
If dark elf units go down in price it will be because they lose hatred or something.
Plus, dark elves were much stronger than high elves in both 7th and 8th, so one could argue that they were too cheap.

Archers were over-costed before, now they are more appropriately priced. Sword Masters and White Lions, yep I agree. A funny one is that Dragon Princes managed to get cheaper despite getting better, for some strange reason.

Yep, I agree. Dark Elves were and still are a top tier army in both editions, and there are a number of reasons for that. They've been the superior competitive choice compared to High Elves for several years now.

Soulless
20-05-2013, 14:33
Dark Elves: hatred, poisoned attacks
Wood Elves: quickshoot and no pen for long range

TheDungen
20-05-2013, 15:00
no and i think it's a pity they maintained the rule at all.

Thruster
20-05-2013, 16:57
I really think they should re-do the To-Hit table.

While adding Strength will give you +1 To-Wound AND reduce enemy's armour saves, having 2+ above enemy WS will give you... Nothing.
This will give another dimension to the game, I believe, as people will try to buff WS as well as Strength.
I think elves should be harder to hit and easier to hit other people(though Strength 3 and Tough 3 are their drawback), since most of them are 100+ years old, so their Weapon Skill should be pretty good after all those experiences!

mattolo
20-05-2013, 17:24
I hope that the games designer team don't make another unbalanced book like the high elves book.

sulla
21-05-2013, 02:57
Not a huge fan of ASF for all Elven armies, but that's mainly because of the way ASF works in 8th edition. I don't like the way ASF/ASL are great equalisers and make the I value vs other ASF/ASL redundant. For example, I don't like the idea that an I9 assassin strikes at the same time as an I5 archer.

If they went back to the old way of ASF vs ASF defaulting to 'highest initiative strikes first', I wouldn't mind it so much, I suppose.

I don't really see why any elven army needed ASF though. If you want them to strike first, give them an initiative value that lets them do that. If you wanted elven great weapons to strike at initiative order, give them a rule that allowed it. ASF seems a heavyhanded fix for... I don't really know what issue.

CrystalSphere
21-05-2013, 07:59
[QUOTE=sulla;6776663]
I don't really see why any elven army needed ASF though. If you want them to strike first, give them an initiative value that lets them do that. If you wanted elven great weapons to strike at initiative order, give them a rule that allowed it. ASF seems a heavyhanded fix for... I don't really know what issue.

It was a fix for 7th edition, when cavalry armies were dominant and infantry was subpar. HE in particular suffered be,cause their infantry was very. expensive, with low toughness and armor saves, and their initiative was useless due to chargers striking first. Most HE armies of the time used infantry, being madealmost entirely of cavalry. A real fix would have involved changing the core rules, and not making up such stupid rule as spe asuryan, which has now set a very bad precedent that will be hard to get rid of. All because of the 7th power creep

Azzaphox
21-05-2013, 09:25
I think GW easily could use their stats system a little better instead of shoving useless rules into our throats (most special rules are okay but some are just weird [ASF])

I totally agree with this.
I came back from 1st edition WHFB, and the universal special rules thing does my head in.
Just use the stat line!

I mean - if you want a longer charge distance, more M, faster - more I.
And, remember 3 is the standard stat not 4.
So don't be shy of armies with S3 or WS3 or T3.
Also don't be shy of some people getting lower - skinks and skavenslaves - well done!

Petey
21-05-2013, 14:11
I can see all elves getting ASF, but more likely I think we'll see them all get Martial Prowess.

I think hatred shouldn't be reroll to hit, I think it should be reroll to wound. Hatred and anger never let you hit more precisely ( I know from sparring and ring fighting) but man, if you get your hands on them, you won't let up.

sulla
22-05-2013, 09:34
[QUOTE=sulla;6776663]
I don't really see why any elven army needed ASF though. If you want them to strike first, give them an initiative value that lets them do that. If you wanted elven great weapons to strike at initiative order, give them a rule that allowed it. ASF seems a heavyhanded fix for... I don't really know what issue./quote]

It was a fix for 7th edition, when cavalry armies were dominant and infantry was subpar. HE in particular suffered be,cause their infantry was very. expensive, with low toughness and armor saves, and their initiative was useless due to chargers striking first. Most HE armies of the time used infantry, being madealmost entirely of cavalry. A real fix would have involved changing the core rules, and not making up such stupid rule as spe asuryan, which has now set a very bad precedent that will be hard to get rid of. All because of the 7th power creepI know what they were trying to fix in 7th ed. I just don't really see an issue that needed fixing in 8th with ASF.

Rakariel
22-05-2013, 10:05
I dont think the other Elf races will get ASF solely for the reason that they (the writers of the ABs) think that ASF is something High Elfs need so they have something special. That it doesnt make any real sense that, sorry, lowly militia (spearmen and archers) are faster than the most specialist elite troops of other Elf races is a bit awkward to say the least. I would have absolutely no problem giving it to the HE specialists but everyone? No, that just sounds as if they had no idea what else to come up with to distinguish them from other troops.

I am also against the idea giving every Dark Elf poison for example, but that atleast would be not be as ridicolous (even the most imbecile soldier being drafted into service can put poison on his blade as its not an ability).
Just my two cents.