PDA

View Full Version : Moving to an Elite-sized Army. Recommendations and Thoughts?



Desalbert
23-05-2013, 00:12
Hey everyone, getting back into the hobby as I am, I recently realized that the reason I stayed away is because of the number of models in my army, and the time it took to play games as a result. So, since I love the fluff and the hobby itself, I reckoned its time to ditch my previous allegiance (Orks and IG) to get an army I actually wanted to play.

As of right now, I have 3-4 possible interests. These include:

-Eldar
-Grey Knights
-Chaos Daemons
and - Regular Marines (probably would go with imperial fists)

Each of the above has positives and negatives to a fluff-first player like me, and I also have further questions about each, if you don't mind. (Some may repeat)

First, Let's start with Eldar.

Q: How Elite are they really? (Looking at 8 pts per Guardian doesn't seem to suggest eliteness, but, via Fluff I know they must be anything but numerous.
Q: How many models in an average Eldar list?
Q: If I wanted to be as elite as possible, how many army lists/permutations of Eldar would I have access to? (via current codex)
Q: What would be safe to buy in advance of the new codex? (if anything)

Grey Knights
Q: Are they still super powerful?
Q: Are they fun to play against for your opponent? And for you?
Q: They appear to be the most elite-sized army in the game, but does that mean they lack variable lists?
Q: Why might you recommend Grey Knights over Space Marines


Chaos Daemons
Q: How Elite are they really?
Q: How many models on average?
Q: I enjoy the randomness in the new book-- seems like it makes for a fun game, does it?

Regular Marines
Q: How do you get over their popularity?
Q: How might an Ork player overcome his Marine hate?
Q: Any special considerations for fluffy Imperial Fist armies? (my favorite chapter)
Q: Why might you recommend regular Space Marines over Grey Knights?


Thanks guys for any and all thoughts. I'm really just looking for any opinions to help me make the best choice in spending my money on a new force. And with eliteness as the major factor, and fluff as secondary I thought I'd appeal to warseer for game-table advice/ other advice

-Des

Nurgling Chieftain
23-05-2013, 00:48
Eldar: I say wait for the codex to hit. Who knows what things will be like on the other side of it? If Wraithguard are viable Troops, you could get a very small army out of Eldar, no problem.

Grey Knights: Seem to have been knocked off their pedestal by Necrons. Still a highly potent Elite force. You can get a lot of variety out of this codex and still be upper tier.

Daemons: Eh, not so Elite nor random as they used to be. If you like lots of Monstrous Creatures, you can certainly build a smallish Daemon army, but you'll always need some more numerous Troops.

Saunders
23-05-2013, 01:16
My thoughts:
If you are considering eldar, wait for the new codex to drop. That said, wraith-dominated lists like craftworld iyanden that I play are quite 'elite'.

Grey Knights are still quite good, and can certainly be the 'most elite' army out there. They have a variety of builds but you may run in to trouble with the top end of the dex if you play friends in a more casual environment.

Daemons are a lot of fun. You're looking at greater daemons in the 300pt range after you kit them out. My friend's daemon test list consisted of less than 40 models at 2k, the only thing to keep in mind that their troops come in units of 10-20. If the idea of reward tables appeals to you, you'll love it. I thuroughly enjoy rolling them up.

Regular marines, I have less to comment on.

Desalbert
23-05-2013, 03:13
I feel I should specify that the potential power of Grey Knights is a negative point for me. What might be considered "top end" regarding their codex... What should I avoid besides special characters?

Calcabrina
23-05-2013, 03:36
Paladins are considered pretty cheesy, though they are the most direct route to a low model count "elite" army.

The problem with Grey Knights is that they are jack of all trades, and pretty close to masters of them too. I guess if you didn't take psybolts on any of the entries they're available on, nor took force halberds on anything you'd be off to a good start. Also, take none of the optional grenades.

JWhex
23-05-2013, 03:37
Go demons if you want to nerf yourself and be everyone's whipping boy.

Calcabrina
23-05-2013, 03:53
Go demons if you want to nerf yourself and be everyone's whipping boy.

Daemons are actually pretty powerful, they just require some thought to be effective. I regularly play Slaanesh daemons and table my opponents more often than not. If you base your strategy on getting a certain randomly rolled ability, you're gonna have a bad time. Though if you mean Tzeentch daemons then yeah, you're in for an uphill fight.

-Totenkopf-
23-05-2013, 04:05
Eldar can be very elite and I can see wraith based lists sticking around.. Outside of wraith based lists you have jetbikes and jet seer councils.. at 1500 pts you can have 10 wraith guard 3 wraith lords 20 guardians and a few bikes.. Harlequin armies tend to be smallish too.. They are also a safe bet not to change a whole lot..

rapterz
23-05-2013, 04:24
Go demons if you want to nerf yourself and be everyone's whipping boy.

this is the 40k forum friend.


Daemon elite armies seem risky to me, but then I'm a guy whos watched squads get nuked by sternguard. I'd just go with GK, who aren't the be all end all they used to be, or eldar who are getting a titan.

Calcabrina
23-05-2013, 04:40
this is the 40k forum friend.


Daemon elite armies seem risky to me, but then I'm a guy whos watched squads get nuked by sternguard. I'd just go with GK, who aren't the be all end all they used to be, or eldar who are getting a titan.

Daemons are only really risky if you plan poorly. Sure, there's the possibility of rolling the "everything takes an instability test" and everything rolling double 1's. But you have a chance to roll all 1's on your saves with other armies, and that isn't a reason to not play them. If you plan on taking the 0-result for every daemonic reward roll and never bank on a specific psychic power, you'll do alright. Smartly utilize the buffs from your 1-4 heralds in the proper squads and field enough flying MC's or soulgrinders to provide heavy firepower and you're good to go.

Swordsman
23-05-2013, 05:45
Regular Marines
Q: How do you get over their popularity?
Q: How might an Ork player overcome his Marine hate?
Q: Any special considerations for fluffy Imperial Fist armies? (my favorite chapter)
Q: Why might you recommend regular Space Marines over Grey Knights?

After just reading your 'questions' regarding Codex: Space Marine, I'd suggest staying away, honestly. You seem to have way too much angst regarding marines - or playing a popular army - to play the codex without losing your mind.

Somewhat surprised that it was an option at all.

Desalbert
23-05-2013, 07:03
After just reading your 'questions' regarding Codex: Space Marine, I'd suggest staying away, honestly. You seem to have way too much angst regarding marines - or playing a popular army - to play the codex without losing your mind.

Somewhat surprised that it was an option at all.

Fair point, mon ami. I think the reasoning I had was that although I greatly appreciate inquisition fluff more than regular marine, straightly speaking, if I can get in the headspace to get into Grey knights, it should be possible for me to be able to also become a marine player, especially if their power level is lesser and variety higher. However I do agree with you and I think I would be better off just using ally rules on a few SM with GK as the main force and (to simulate the old requisition ability I loved from the ordo malleus book ) if I wanted some SM variety instead of building an entire SM army.

In short, if I choose imperium it should be grey knights over space marines.

sprugly
23-05-2013, 10:21
ive been playing with daemons since the new codex dropped and ive been really enjoying it.

my normal list centres around a bloodthirster, 2-3 winged daemon princes, a soul grinder, 8 flesh hounds, 10 plague bearers, and a couple of squads of horrors.

i end up with 40 odd small infantry and 5 or 6 big things, though you could go even more elite than this. so far its worked pretty well, people often have a hard time taking down so many flying monsterous creatures and though they might hurt some theres always plenty of stuff to hit their lines on turn 2 for some head kicking. the flesh hounds are an extremely fast threat. one of the few good first turn charge units about.

if you dont fancy the randomness too much i would suggest fateweaver as your warlord. he can re roll the warpstorm table as well as 1 other dice per turn.

sprugly

daveNYC
23-05-2013, 11:06
Well you could use DA Deathwing and just call it the IF 1st company.

Menthak
23-05-2013, 11:11
Fair point, mon ami. I think the reasoning I had was that although I greatly appreciate inquisition fluff more than regular marine, straightly speaking, if I can get in the headspace to get into Grey knights, it should be possible for me to be able to also become a marine player, especially if their power level is lesser and variety higher. However I do agree with you and I think I would be better off just using ally rules on a few SM with GK as the main force and (to simulate the old requisition ability I loved from the ordo malleus book ) if I wanted some SM variety instead of building an entire SM army.

In short, if I choose imperium it should be grey knights over space marines.

You might have already written out this, but why not do a Deathwatch army? You could use either the grey knight rules (Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, Squad of Paladins or whatever Terminators are your troops as either Deathwatch Termies or Grey knight allies) then ally space marines, then you've got a unique army with plenty of customization (different trinkets from different chapters and whatnot).

Failing that, you could do a Dark Angels army, representing an Imperial fists Terminator only force, but you might be moaned at a bit.

In the old Tyranid codex you could go incredibly elite, even at the Horma/termagant level.

Tau, Take two six man squads of fire warriors and farsight and spam battlesuits.

Imperial guard can go elite, but I doubt you'd win many games frankly

gwarsh41
23-05-2013, 17:10
Chaos Daemons
Q: How Elite are they really?
Q: How many models on average?
Q: I enjoy the randomness in the new book-- seems like it makes for a fun game, does it?

Chaos daemons are funny, they are technically now a pseudo horde army. Min unit size is 10, but most troop choices you take will be usually 11-15. So you could easily run a 1500pt list with +80 models in it. The funny thing is that we CAN be super elite, I mean, 11 models on the table. Sure, you wont have any scoring units, but you will have 5 flying monstrous creatures that are all psykers.

On average? Honestly flying circus is fun, but can be shut down really easily with some lucky rolls, so I don't do it that often. I would say on average you will be running in the 40-60 model range assuming you want more than 2 capable troop choices.

I LOVE how random daemons are, but at the same time it is can be horribly frustrating. All upgrades are random, and every turn you do a random roll that can hurt. For example, a 2d6 roll or 5,6,8 or 9 will do a board wide attack. another number might summon a unit of 2D6 to deepstrike, and another might give you - or + to your invul save (-to invul save suuuucks)


Bottom line though, daemons are no longe an elite army. The days of 7 plaguebearers being able to weather fire and assault from marines are over. 15 plaguebearers with an FNP herald can take a LOT of punishment though. Especially when you get cover saves.




Daemons: Eh, not so Elite nor random as they used to be. If you like lots of Monstrous Creatures, you can certainly build a smallish Daemon army, but you'll always need some more numerous Troops.
Daemons are much, much more random than they were in the last edition.

Chem-Dog
23-05-2013, 17:32
Just going to suggest Blingwing here. Lord Commander Dante makes Sanguinary Guard (normally Elite) into Troops Choices, at upwards of 200 points per squad, that makes for an incredibly small army- 21 models for around 1k points.

Also you'll then have an entire army made of gold flying dudes with huge swords.

EDIT: That 1k-ish list costs less than 100 quid too.

Swordsman
23-05-2013, 17:44
Just going to suggest Blingwing here. Lord Commander Dante makes Sanguinary Guard (normally Elite) into Troops Choices, at upwards of 200 points per squad, that makes for an incredibly small army- 21 models for around 1k points.

Also you'll then have an entire army made of gold flying dudes with huge swords.

EDIT: That 1k-ish list costs less than 100 quid too.

He digs the Grey Knights though- so with that in mind, I'd suggest a Draigowing. Now there's a low model count, elite list.

samzor
23-05-2013, 17:51
-Eldar
-Grey Knights
-Chaos Daemons
and - Regular Marines (probably would go with imperial fists)

Thanks guys for any and all thoughts. I'm really just looking for any opinions to help me make the best choice in spending my money on a new force. And with eliteness as the major factor, and fluff as secondary I thought I'd appeal to warseer for game-table advice/ other advice

-Des

The eldar codex is days away from release cant comment on specifics about them. There will be many more viable elite builds for them in the not so distant future.

Generally: If you do want an elite army then you can make one from most of the armies in 40k not just the ones above.
Keep in mind that elite = low model count and often elite armies have a particular weakness.

For example a pure terminator army is actually harder to play than a balanced space marine force on a lot of occassions. (less models and if you are facing an army that can produce lots of AP2 fire eg: certain eldar, dark eldar builds then you're going to be fighting an uphill battle.

This is especially true for grey knights and Sanguinary Guard.
(Sanguinary guard often fare badly against mech eldar for example because they just get hit in the face with tons of AP2 or are doomed, misfortuned and never get to the opponent in time)

Then you have the really tough armies like eldar with wraith constructs or thrunderwolf based space wolves armies. Poisoned weapons will get around the toughness and you'll be making and failing a lot of saves.

My observations in general is that bog standard space marines are so good in the hands of an experienced player you're better just putting in as many squads as possible. Things like 400 point death companies etc may sound like fun but they will often get taken out before they can earn their points back in time or they take out their target and are out of position when you could have had a second or third squad for the points that wins you the game.

I have no experience with daemons except to say they are a hoard army now in most peoples view.

In a way any of the elite lists that you can build from the above armies are what i'd describe as finesse armies. Which take time to master and you will probably loose a few games in succession getting used to them however they make 40k very interesting.

Craskie12
23-05-2013, 21:08
As mentioned before I run deathwing army painted as fists lead by Lysander (count as belial) then I either use marine allies or gk terminators or paladins and its very effective list and get quite a few positive comments about it. My friend does a wratith guard and wraith lord army with double force organisation. I think he'd be getting the wraith knights when there out :(

Desalbert
23-05-2013, 21:16
Thanks guys for all the thoughts! I should mention further though, that the minor lists (like Draigowing or Ravenwing) don't really factor in to my decision as yet, for I am currently focused on which army to buy, proper. (The Imperial Fist statement was an acknowledgement of my favourite marine fluff).

So I think that although it is awesome to know these elite lists exist, I'd like to keep the commentary on the broader-scope of the armies than on a particular list, as I don't want to buy and play 1 list till the end of time, but am just generally most concerned about what overall force fits my desires.

A shame that Daemons are more Hordey now-- I may have to cross them off, if they are generally larger model count now.

Vedar
23-05-2013, 22:11
Daemons can do quite well. One of my Friends now refuses to play me if I play Daemons. After he charged my Lord of Change with 5 hammernators, 3 died off the bat to rolling 1,2,2 on saves and he only did one wounds to my LoC while he expected to wipe it off the board. Then my screamers ate his land raider. My plaguebearers stabbed the other land Raider to death. I pretty much tabled him with no losses. The dice were on my side that game, but I enjoy the new Daemons. I just wish I didn't have to roll random for so much junk as it take so much time rolling up stuff to remember each game.

Nurgling Chieftain
23-05-2013, 22:57
Daemons are much, much more random than they were in the last edition.I'm not seeing that at all. I mean, I suppose there's more little random things. But there's nothing in the new codex, nor everything random in the new codex combined, that even remotely compares to the havoc of the old deployment rules. One game, most everything showed up when and where you wanted it, next game you'd get the wrong half, which would scatter to the wrong places, and between mishaps and being out of position you wouldn't even be able to contest. And that's normal.

In the new codex, you're mostly counting on basic upgrades and hoping to roll some of the best Greater rewards (seriously, the Greater rewards rock almost across the board), while the Gods rain down a bit of random havoc. But your models are generally exactly where you want them to be, and unlikely to mishap.

Calcabrina
24-05-2013, 11:22
Daemons can do quite well. One of my Friends now refuses to play me if I play Daemons. After he charged my Lord of Change with 5 hammernators, 3 died off the bat to rolling 1,2,2 on saves and he only did one wounds to my LoC while he expected to wipe it off the board. Then my screamers ate his land raider. My plaguebearers stabbed the other land Raider to death. I pretty much tabled him with no losses. The dice were on my side that game, but I enjoy the new Daemons. I just wish I didn't have to roll random for so much junk as it take so much time rolling up stuff to remember each game.
I think the major problem with daemons is that it's so easy to play them poorly; it's too tempting for new daemon players to try and rely on good results from random sources, causing them to think the army is horrible.

JC1
24-05-2013, 13:08
@Desalbert: I did exactly this, at the end of 3rd i was playing an ork lotz of boyz list. It became tedious to play with. When i returned i starting playing IG armoured company, rules in one of the IA books. 6 leman russ battle tanks come in at 900 points before upgrades so it's definitely a low model count army, especially once you've added a pask punisher to deal with flyers. Or even normal guard can be used as a real elite force, 1 ccs 2 vets in 3 vendettas and the rest of the points spent on russes behind a defense line.

gwarsh41
24-05-2013, 14:29
I'm not seeing that at all. I mean, I suppose there's more little random things. But there's nothing in the new codex, nor everything random in the new codex combined, that even remotely compares to the havoc of the old deployment rules. One game, most everything showed up when and where you wanted it, next game you'd get the wrong half, which would scatter to the wrong places, and between mishaps and being out of position you wouldn't even be able to contest. And that's normal.

In the new codex, you're mostly counting on basic upgrades and hoping to roll some of the best Greater rewards (seriously, the Greater rewards rock almost across the board), while the Gods rain down a bit of random havoc. But your models are generally exactly where you want them to be, and unlikely to mishap.

Really? So you are saying that Alpha Strike deployment (Same thing drop pods do) is more random than: The warp storm table, random wargear, random powers, daemonic instability. To top it all off, daemons all still have deepstrike. If I wanted to, I could have half my army deploy just like it did in the old book. Half on the table, half from reserves. The old deployment rules were the one thing that really made the old daemons competitive. Turn 1 you were in your enemies face. But just so I am getting this right, alpha striking armies like drop pod SW and the new deathwing or whatever it is, are more random than chaos daemons?

I guess it is a matter of opinion then.

Calcabrina
24-05-2013, 16:05
Really? So you are saying that Alpha Strike deployment (Same thing drop pods do) is more random than: The warp storm table, random wargear, random powers, daemonic instability. To top it all off, daemons all still have deepstrike. If I wanted to, I could have half my army deploy just like it did in the old book. Half on the table, half from reserves. The old deployment rules were the one thing that really made the old daemons competitive. Turn 1 you were in your enemies face. But just so I am getting this right, alpha striking armies like drop pod SW and the new deathwing or whatever it is, are more random than chaos daemons?

I guess it is a matter of opinion then.

The warp storm table on average either does nothing, or nukes your opponent. If you're not playing mono-god you have options to lessen its impact on you considerably (Kairos and instruments). Random wargear is not a huge problem because you can always count on the 0-level weapons, which is what you should assume to swap for whenever you buy a roll, with certain results you'll keep if they come up. That part only hurts when you plan poorly. Not sure why you included random powers, since everyone's psychic powers are random (and the only other powers I can think of are locus effects, which are not at all randomly determined). Daemonic instability is alright by me. Take a few casualties if I'm somehow losing close combat with my giant mob of beguilement-buffed daemonettes instead of risking a sweeping advance, while still allowing them to go to ground when being shot at? Yes please.

What you're ignoring in your description of those other alpha strike armies is that they did it safer than daemons could ever hope for. Drop pods of all varieties correct their deepstrike to avoid mishap-causing obstacles, which is a HUGE benefit that we never had. Our icons were our only mitigating factor and they had to be on the board since the end of our last turn to work, so did not apply to our first turn deepstrike. I have NEVER seen a droppod list mishap into losing its entire first wave, however that happened to me TWICE with the old daemon book. It was painful that space marines could always deepstrike better than we could with our massively overpriced units, and didn't even have to randomly roll for their preferred wave! I don't think you actually played the old book, or even the new book for that matter.

Desalbert
24-05-2013, 19:15
Hey guys just wanted to thank you all for the discussions and advice. I decided to go with GK and will also allow myself to utilize imperium allies from time to time to preserve that Inquisitor requisition feel from
The old ordo books. Seems to be perfect for GK. I will also allow myself to expand into sisters if they ever get a full release.

Anyway, two more questions re: GK

First, would fulfilling my requirements with two units of terminators and a librarian in terminator armour be a good start?

Second. I'm not nuts about silver GK so I wonder if there is any fluff way to justify differing colours for the sons of Titan. In the old ordo book I read that at a certain point a knight is permitted his own heraldry/- but this doesn't seem to suggest he could have green shoulders where one has yellow and so forth (ala real world knights) -- so I'm just curious if I have to invent a reason to avoid silver or if one exists

Thanks all

Craskie12
24-05-2013, 19:40
do you have to paint space marines blue or chaos black? its your army painted how you want and people shouldnt care how you paint it and secondly yeah that seems like a good start to me, you can then use the options in the box to personalise the libarian with a warding staff and other bits left over in the box

gwarsh41
24-05-2013, 19:50
When GK came out, they were used as "count as" just about as often as they were used as GK. I don't think there is a legit chapter that is not silver, but that doesnt mean you cant paint them how you want. Remember that GK don't answer to much anyone, so they can do what they want. I haven't touched GK, but I would think that 2 TDA and librarian is a good start. I see those units in lots of lists.


Calcabrina - First off, chill out dude, take some deep breaths. Second, check my post history for several years of playing daemons, get off your high horse. Sounds like the old alpha strike was pretty harsh on you. I never had issues with it, tables didn't have that much terrain, when they did, I had lucky rolls. Split wave was just another part of the tactics for me, I have no beef with it. Remember that instability can remove your entire unit (very similar to how mishaps can) at the same time it can bring back your unit.

Desalbert
24-05-2013, 20:50
do you have to paint space marines blue or chaos black? its your army painted how you want and people shouldnt care how you paint it and secondly yeah that seems like a good start to me, you can then use the options in the box to personalise the libarian with a warding staff and other bits left over in the box

I take your point, sir. Though to be fair, I think the issue is this: No, you don't have to paint space marines blue... but if you said you were Ultramarines and then didn't paint them blue you might raise a few eyebrows. That is, Grey Knights are a chapter much like Ultramarines and Imperial Fists and Salamanders and so on, so while Regular Space marines have many colours to choose from (even custom chapters), Grey Knights seem to be as dedicated to grey/silver as Ultramarines to their blue.

Still. Your general point stands. I'm just nitpicking.

Thanks

Nurgling Chieftain
24-05-2013, 21:16
First, would fulfilling my requirements with two units of terminators and a librarian in terminator armour be a good start?You did say you weren't interested in a top-tier army, right? Grey Knight terminators are actually quite reasonable. Most people going for particularly competitive lists don't take them at all, but there's nothing wrong with them. :cool:


I'm not nuts about silver GK so I wonder if there is any fluff way to justify differing colours for the sons of Titan.Grey Knights and Space Wolves share the strange distinction of being the only armies which GW does not actively encourage alternate paint schemes for. I can assure you, however, that players in general simply do not care so much. A good looking army in an alternate paint scheme won't even raise an eyebrow anywhere I've been. :cool:


Calcabrina - First off, chill out dude, take some deep breaths.So, the person who started this line of debate with a hyperbolic attack on my opinion wants other people to chill out. And after the absurd strawman of comparing Daemonic Assault to Drop Pod Assault, your only defense is that you got ridiculously lucky over a long period of time? Let's discuss "luck" in the new codex: Lesser rewards are Aetherblades, Greater rewards are always good, warp storms are mostly periodic free hits, instability only happens when you're losing combat anyway, and deep-strike scatter is all but removed thanks to fast moving icons that can start on the table. Am I ridiculously lucky? I don't think so.

I'm not continuing this conversation. :eyebrows:

druchii
24-05-2013, 22:09
Here are my recommendations for a small, elite army:

Dark Angels:
Run Belial, some terminators, and maybe a land raider or two. It won't win many games, but you can get an army that's looking at maybe 25ish models. If you wanted to make it more competitive you could add a few mortis contemptors.

Demons:
You can easily make a list that has under 30 models in it. Fateweaver, loc, 3x tzeentch demon princes, and some plague bearers/horrors for taste. But be careful, especially if you give the DPs extra psyker mastery levels because you'll be looking at rolling 20-30ish dice before the game even begins.

Grey Knights:
As people have said before, draigowing can net you like 15 models if you so wish.

Eldar:
I'm betting that with the new book wraith armies will be a lot more playable (if nothing else besides the fact that the wraithguard are cheaper and prettier now!) and you could easily fill your list with a wraithseer, 2x10 wraithguard, a wraith seer (from forgeworld) and some wraithlords/knights.

Personally I'd love to see some wraith armies on the table, but I think they're going to be really popular...

d

Shamana
24-05-2013, 22:41
Eldar:
I'm betting that with the new book wraith armies will be a lot more playable (if nothing else besides the fact that the wraithguard are cheaper and prettier now!) and you could easily fill your list with a wraithseer, 2x10 wraithguard, a wraith seer (from forgeworld) and some wraithlords/knights.

Not just wraithguard, though. Every eldar troop choice but the guardian costs double-digit points per model, and barring drastic price cuts I'd expect them to still cost amounts comparable to many units in the various marine codices. Wraith armies will probably be around, but I'd be quite curious if mass jetbike or foot aspect lists would be competitive. Managing to make a small T3 army playable is quite the feat.

Calcabrina
25-05-2013, 01:17
Calcabrina - First off, chill out dude, take some deep breaths. Second, check my post history for several years of playing daemons, get off your high horse. Sounds like the old alpha strike was pretty harsh on you. I never had issues with it, tables didn't have that much terrain, when they did, I had lucky rolls. Split wave was just another part of the tactics for me, I have no beef with it. Remember that instability can remove your entire unit (very similar to how mishaps can) at the same time it can bring back your unit.
I'm perfectly chill. I just take issue with my army of choice getting a bad rap due to misconceptions about how "random" it actually is. I'm glad you were lucky with your rolls concerning the last book's randomness, but that doesn't make it any less random. I know rolling a 12 and losing your unit sucks, but so does a unit breaking and getting swept; an event that's far more common than 1 in 36 for non-loyalist-MEQ armies.

Yes, we have random possibilities with our book. But once you've strategized properly to mitigate their effect on the game, we're no more random than any other army, and far more flexible than most too.

The statistical probability of a bad warpstorm roll is incredibly low, with the majority of rolls falling into the 6-8 range. It's been my experience that this tends to hold true, with my opponent getting nuked for a not insignificant amount of damage frequently throughout the game. Yeah, I have gotten the bad results too, but they're incredibly rare; a statistical outlier not unlike failing saves on terminators. I have yet to hear deathwing players complain about how random their codex is.

Litcheur
25-05-2013, 02:50
White Scars ?

In a 1500 pts game, you'll typically field something like 20 bikes + half a dozen assault bikes and 3 or 4 Land Speeders.

Desalbert
25-05-2013, 20:37
So I thought I solved this and was going GK. Now, I saw Wraith Guard and the new codex and I'm kind of in love with Eldar and want to start them too.... My limited budget hates me.

Deorum
25-05-2013, 21:00
I suppose this would be an appropriate place to ask the opposite: I have not played in a few years (I played a little into 5th edition) and had stopped mostly because of time restraints. I was considering picking the game up again a little bit, but I am still restricted in terms of exactly how much time I would have to play so I would like to keep the hours needed to both model and play down some, which is why an elite style army appeals to me. However, my interest in the game is mostly in the competitive aspect (I like to play tournaments and most of my non tournament games will be practicing for them), so I am looking for the opposite of what Desalbert is looking for; what are the most competitive choices for an elite army?

I do not particularly care about fluff, or being called cheesy (and d not worry, I am not out to ruin people's fun, I will be looking for like minded competitive players and we have a decent tournament scene around here), and I fully understand that experience is more important than the specific choice of army/units a lot of the time. What are the strongest elite armies if, to put it bluntly, your only concern is to win? I realize the answers may vary based on points limits, so let us consider which will be the strongest over a series of games ranging from 1000 points to 2500 points (though I would love to hear thoughts on which armies would be great at high points games but not low points games and vice versa). A lot of the powerhouse armies of 4th edition were elite armies. Are elite armies still highly competitive or will I need to trade some power for convenience? Thanks.

Litcheur
25-05-2013, 21:57
I do not particularly care about fluff
Call Kaldor Draigo.

Draigo + 15 Paladins + 1 Land Raider = 1500 pts.

trigger happy 24
25-05-2013, 22:05
Desalbert go eldar they are a very enjoyable army to play competitavly and non competativly,as well as having more couler schemes and more variety of units.
Deorum again i would go eldar 30 to 40 models should be really easy at 1500 maybe down to 20 or 30 if you go bikes or even less.Speed atleast were i play is the key to victory

Clang
25-05-2013, 22:12
So I thought I solved this and was going GK. Now, I saw Wraith Guard and the new codex and I'm kind of in love with Eldar and want to start them too.... My limited budget hates me.

Now we have plastic Wraithguard, Wraithlord and Wraithknight, a Wraith-themed army does seem tempting - although not having seen the codex, i don't know whether all-Wraith is possible or particularly sensible.

Deorum
26-05-2013, 01:24
Deorum again i would go eldar 30 to 40 models should be really easy at 1500 maybe down to 20 or 30 if you go bikes or even less.Speed atleast were i play is the key to victory

Yes I played Mech Eldar and I could drag them out of storage, Jetbike mounted Seer Council and all. I hope such a unit is still viable with the new codex (I have not even read the 6th edition rulebook yet so I wouldn't know how to evaluate the new codex even if I had it). This is pretty much exactly the type of thing for which I am looking, and I agree that at least in previous editions mobility has been one of the most important factors in competitive play. Thanks, I may just stick with the Eldar. I'll read the rules book and then the new Codex when it comes out.

Desalbert
26-05-2013, 01:28
Alternatively, like others have said, GK is the most elite army there is at a base level, and if you wanted to get really small and still competitive, do the draigo wing.

Desalbert
26-05-2013, 01:32
Desalbert go eldar they are a very enjoyable army to play competitavly and non competativly,as well as having more couler schemes and more variety of units.
Deorum again i would go eldar 30 to 40 models should be really easy at 1500 maybe down to 20 or 30 if you go bikes or even less.Speed atleast were i play is the key to victory

I think you make a great suggestion here trigger. Thank you, I think I will!

Montegue
26-05-2013, 15:29
Chaos Demons -

1 Greater deamon, as much fun stuff as you want.

3 Demon Princes, as much fun stuff as you want

2 troop choices as cheap as possible.

Aegis defense line (because, you know, it makes sense that Demons would carry one around with them) so they can have 2+ cover turn one


Point and click to win pretty much every game you play, barring a freak accident, or Tau. It's the single cheesiest army I've ever seen. Less than 20 models to paint, if that. Each demon has Biomancy, so they can make themselves pretty much unkillable, heal wounds they take in previous rounds through Biomancy or It Will Not Die, etc. If you want to win, and you want very few models, this is the way to go.