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b4d0m3n
10-06-2005, 08:46
I think it's time we talked Orks again, seeing as the forum died and we lost all our previous places of discussion. Orkish customs are an interesting topic, I think. Let's discuss their religion first.

We know that their gods are Gork and Mork and that this duality epitomises all that is Orky. Are there schisms in the tribes based on interpretations of the sacred 'truth'? Do some Orks follow just one of these deities? It would make sense that this was so, and that many civil wars were over things which actually mattered rather than what many people just put down to 'natural Orkish brutality'.

Now, another thing is their technology. It is, I believe, as closely tied to their faith as the Imperium's. Orkish Gargants are seen by the race as living avatars of the spirits of their Gods. I think they may also see their weapons/abilities as miracles from their deities.

Discuss...

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 08:56
Orks follow both gods, Mork is their god of kunning, Gork is the god of strength, good combination. The more Orks ally with each other, the more sentient Gork and Mork become, the Final WAAAGH is when all Orks ally and take over, everything.

Typheron
10-06-2005, 09:28
Gork is Brutally Cunning and Mork is Cunningly Brutal...


...does that even make sence?

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 09:51
No, and it's NOT true.

Mork=KUNNING
Gork=STRENGTH

Neither are both.

Typheron
10-06-2005, 10:22
im fairly sure theres a quote from one of the Ork codexes that states something similar.


I did not say they were both i said Gork was brutally Cunning and Mork was cunningly Brutal.

sutile difference, although im gonna have to go check my sources to ensure im even in the right ball park here. Its been a while since i read an ork codex.

charlie_c67
10-06-2005, 10:26
And even if your not correct then it's simply the other way round. That is the right wording though :)

Typheron
10-06-2005, 10:36
found this interesting page while searching for a on-line version of that quote, very uinteresting. I especially like this bit:



The Waaagh!

Ork behavior is dominated by the Waaagh!, a gestalt (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Gestalt&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) psychic field they generate that has affects on the ork psyche, as it allows orks to instictivly recognise who is 'bigga' and therefore who is in charge. All orks generate this field, and it grows stronger as the orks enjoy themselves, generally while fighting. The Waaagh! helps give momentum (and the name) to the orks' planet-crushing Waaaghs. These Waaaghs are a cross between holy crusade (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Crusade&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) and pub crawl (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Pub+crawl&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1), with a bit of genocide (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Genocide&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1) thrown in for good measure. Thousands of orks will gather together, drawn to the power of a single dominant ork called a warlord, who is bigger and better than the orks around him. Then the orks will set of to find an enemy to fight any enemy. Ork Waaaghs will sweep whole planetary systems away and destroy armies and fleets in tides of bloodlust and carnage, and only once the orks have killed every available enemy will they start to fight amongst themselves again.

http://www.answers.com/ork

athamas
10-06-2005, 10:39
the quote

'Gork is Brutally Cunning and Mork is Cunningly Brutal'

comes from gorkamorka, and was very ... true!

Gork is Cunning, Mork is Brutal,

Gorkamorka has lots of background info on orks!

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 10:42
Gork is the Ork god of strength and brutallity, Mork is the Ork god of kunning! :mad:

athamas
10-06-2005, 10:49
ok, i might have got it the wrong way around, ill check in my mate gorkamorka book as soon as i can [mine are at home!]

athamas
10-06-2005, 11:33
yep, i was wrong, Mork, is the cunning one!

malika
10-06-2005, 13:44
Customs...culture right? This also means art...remember the old background with Eavy Metal and Goff Rok :evilgrin: truly genious!!!

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 13:47
I can't see how those Gargants function from an engineering point of view. What is the power source? I know that Imperial titans function off a plasma reactor but what about those bloated gun-mottled monstrosities?

malika
10-06-2005, 13:50
The Ork codex mentioned that the Orks can make their technology work simply by believing it will work, which is kind of an unsatisfying answer for me...

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 13:59
@Malika, I agree! Look at some of those Ad-mechs, more zealous then anyone and yet believing it doesn't make it so. It is a very unsatisfying answer indeed, otherwise the Imperium would pool groups of tech-priests around a titan and....think about making it work.

malika
10-06-2005, 14:03
The Codex claims its because of the Orks telekinetic powers

Xisor
10-06-2005, 14:03
What about the third Ork God?

http://www.toyshack24.co.uk/morkandmindybookcomp.jpg

That's right, Gork and Mork and Mindy :D
God of brunning crutality?

Xisor

venusianfurs
10-06-2005, 14:10
Nope.
Could Orks ever serve Chaos? Or fall under Genestealer sway?

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 14:11
Telekinetic powers? Great. Thats the last thing we need, psychic fungus :)

Melchor
10-06-2005, 14:31
Nope.
Could Orks ever serve Chaos? Or fall under Genestealer sway?

I seem to recall reading about Khornate Ork Boyz. But I can't quite remember where.

malika
10-06-2005, 14:37
Khorn Stormboyz :evilgrin:

Nurgle Orks

Uhm...genestealer infected Orks were also present, but Orks are weak hosts for genestealers so they are rare, besides the other Orks hunt them down for some reason

venusianfurs
10-06-2005, 14:50
I recall details of very old stuff: there were things mentioned in the Space Crusade background about weird Ork-based constructs on board Tyranid ships (these also appeared in the Space Marine novel) but as far as I know there were no models made, while old Genestealers came with Ork weapon sprues for no apparent reason.
There was also a mutant Ork Freebooter model, back in the day - I started in the hobby just before Waaaaagh! The Orks went out of fashion, so I don't know if there was background on that.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2074orkfreebooterz-m.htm
Second row, 4th one down - third row, 3rd one down - fourth row, 3rd one down.

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 15:51
Telekinetic powers? Great. Thats the last thing we need, psychic fungus :)

Although all Orks are mildly telekinetic, the only Orks who are any better are Wyrd/Wierd boyz, who are few and far between.

Orks' telekinetic powers, known as WAAAGH power [which is the same power that gives Gork and Mork power. It multiplies as more Orks ally, so 2 Orks allied have enough WAAAGH power for 4 unallied Orks, or something like that, so if alot of Orks ally G and M get alot more power from them than if twice their number were unallied] WAAAGH power makes the Orks' badly made guns not fall apart, fire further, have more strength etc. than they would have in human hands.

Nagothrand
10-06-2005, 16:21
I can't see how those Gargants function from an engineering point of view. What is the power source? I know that Imperial titans function off a plasma reactor but what about those bloated gun-mottled monstrosities?

Some old fluff I've read mentions gargants having *boilers* which need to be *stoked*, so they seem to run on gigantic steam or internal combustion engines, ridiculous as it sounds.

Also, the theory in the Ork codex was written in an Imperial perspective and given Imperial understanding of technology it seems dubious at best. It could be that Mekboyz simply have an instinctive grasp of physics and solid engineering principles while the AM doesn't.

Sir_Turalyon
11-06-2005, 00:09
Nagothhard, my sentiments exactly.



The Ork codex mentioned that the Orks can make their technology work simply by believing it will work, which is kind of an unsatisfying answer for me...


Thist is AD/Mech theory with no actual proof. When we consider that:

-Mekboys bulit-in knowledge in several fields (forcefields, teleportation) surpases AD/Mech; and they are able to create equipment which, according to human science, should never work (similiary to necron guns).

-Mekboy's works are brillant, but shoddy and break quickly, so most captured (battle-worn)ork equipment does not work and would need maintaince after battle in which it was captured

-Painting vehicles red is first step in making it going fasta (so red painted vehicle has souped up engine as well)

all AD/Mech suspitions can be explained without involving ork psychic powers. Ork do have osychic powers, sure, but power of the waagh works bit otherwise...



Could Orks ever serve Chaos? Or fall under Genestealer sway?


They can serve Chaos, but cannot be corrupted by it - there are no weaknesses of ork psyche to exploit; so ork may serve a chaos god, fight for his cause and get fewcool mutations without endangering his soul. There were ork chaos champions in RT.

Likewise, an ork can be posessed by deamon (it happens to weirdboyz), but deamon cannot control or leave his host, and ends up trapped. As for ork, te talks a lot to himself...

Genstealers can impregnate orks and create hybrids, but, as ork parents neighter raise or care for it's offsprings, they cannot start a cult. Genestealer hybrids are shunned by proper orks, and their only chance is to find more suitable species and impregnate them; otherwise they will vegetate at egdes of ork society.

b4d0m3n
11-06-2005, 01:39
Also, Orks do not have telekinesis. To have kinetic power they would need to move stuff with their minds. Orks are highly psychic within the contexts of a tribe, but not beyond it.

x-esiv-4c
11-06-2005, 04:20
Damn..I miss the Shokk-Attack-Gun....

Nagothrand
11-06-2005, 15:06
Don't forget Orks have the Weirdboyz, which can channel the collective Waaagh!!! energy of the Orks around them into psychic attacks, so they can affect the outside world. However, manipulative powers like telekinesis does seem outside the Orks' character.

Considering the AdMech's belief in machine-spirits and their Universal Laws (see the new thread) they cannot understand any form of technology outside their own designs can work, so I'd lean towards plain ignorance towards Ork technology.

Lord Lucifer
12-06-2005, 16:57
Are there schisms in the tribes based on interpretations of the sacred 'truth'? Do some Orks follow just one of these deities?

Firstly, not likely. Orks, an almost universally contended species, don't tend to hold grudges, least of all about intangible 'concepts' such as religion. They're simply not structured and organised enough for there to be a schism.
They'll get into arguments over it and have a good scrap, but after it's over they'll simply return to drinking with the guy they were trying to slug half an hour ago.

On the second point, I don't really think Orks think of their Gods as religious entities. To them, Gork and Mork are just great beings that epitomise Orkiness to its fullest, and that's that. There's no worship, and there are no real laws or rules or strictures. They simply leave the Gods to be Godly, and the Gods leave the Orks to be Orky.



Now, another thing is their technology. It is, I believe, as closely tied to their faith as the Imperium's. Orkish Gargants are seen by the race as living avatars of the spirits of their Gods. I think they may also see their weapons/abilities as miracles from their deities.
Not even close.
The Orks don't have a faith system, they're very grounded and direct.
Furthermore, they're very practical about their technology. Guns work because the right gubbinz go together to make them work. Most Orks don't understand how the gubbinz work (or, for that matter, care, so long as it does work), but then again not many people in the real world understand the mechanics of kitchen appliances.
The Meks, on the other hand, understand the mechanics of it perfectly. They can tell what the gubbinz do, quite astoundingly well in fact.

Gargants are monuments to Gork and Mork, as imbued with Orkiness as Orks themselves. They realise the Gargants work on mechanical principles, but anything as Big and Orky as a Gargant must surely have a lot in common with something as Big and Orky as the Ork Gods.





The more Orks ally with each other, the more sentient Gork and Mork become
Where did you hear this?
Gork and Mork are distinct minds, and are not governed by the location of Orks in Real Space, or the relations they have with other Orks. Gork and Mork are sentient divine beings irrespective of whether or not Orks are getting along.



Gork is the Ork god of strength and brutallity, Mork is the Ork god of kunning
Gork and Mork are not Gods of anything. They're Ork Gods and just exist as you or I (assuming, of course, in this case 'you or I' means we're both Orks in the 40K universe, rather than people living in the real world playing toy soldiers)
Gork [I]is[I] cunningly brutal, not the god of being cunningly brutal. Likewise Mork is brutally cunning, but is not the god of being brutally cunning.




I can't see how those Gargants function from an engineering point of view. What is the power source? I know that Imperial titans function off a plasma reactor but what about those bloated gun-mottled monstrosities?
There's no such thing as 'standard manufacture' when it comes to Orks, so it could be a number of things. Plasma reactor, nucleur power, chemical reactors, or a hell of a lot of internal combustion ;)



The Ork codex mentioned that the Orks can make their technology work simply by believing it will work, which is kind of an unsatisfying answer for me...
The theory of a geneticist who works for an organisation that believes that all technology is inhabited by spirits, that it is a Gods' will that brings 'life' to machinery, and can only build through the limited ritualistic processes they know.
The Imperium doesn't understand technology.

Interestingly enough, in the theory the chap even states explicity that Ork vehicles and equipment function on sound mechanical principles.

Ork voodoo magic does NOT power their technology. An Ork can no more will a weapon to work than extinguish the sun by clapping twice.


Could Orks ever serve Chaos? Or fall under Genestealer sway?
Serve Chaos? Yes, they can, but it's EXTREMELY difficult to do. Essentially, Chaos has nothing to offer Orks. The one thing Orks want to be is Orky, and there is nothing Orkier than Orks. That's the super-brief answer, I (and many others undoubtedly) can elaborate further if anyone particularly cares.

The most common chaos-worshipping Ork, which is still by no means common, is the Khornate Stormtroopers. Orks that don't grow out of their rebellious days of respect for authority and love of discipline in the Stormboyz Korps, can eventually be tempted to join the single-minded and focussed warriors of Khorne.


Genestealers...
Well, Orks are an evolutionary dead-end for Genestealers, as they breed asexually (through either Sporing, or later in life by natural reproduction), they can't create new generations of hybrids. Orks are definately the last resort for a Genestealer





Telekinetic powers? Great. Thats the last thing we need, psychic fungus
They're not telekinetic. In any Ork other than a Wierdboy, the WAAAGH! manifests as a form of psychic adrenaline.
And they're not fungus. They're mammals who host a symbiotic strain of algal DNA



I recall details of very old stuff: there were things mentioned in the Space Crusade background about weird Ork-based constructs on board Tyranid ships
Never did read the background for Space Crusade, but in the 1st ed. background for Tyranids (back when they were called Hunter-Slayers instead of Termagants, and Screamer-Killers instead of Carnifex) the Tyranids created Squigs by mutating Ork genetic stock. However, this was very early background before GW realised it was a monumentally bad idea (the Orks and Tyranids struck a deal in the first place so the Tyranids could get the Orks required, the Orks apparently 'rescued' some of the Squigs who recognised the Orks as their own, and this happened before the tyranids even managed to encroach upon the galaxy... it was full of contradictions, and the army list included Zoats... ZOATS!)
GW wisely decided to drop that from the background, and replaced Squig Swarms with Ripper Swarms



Orks' telekinetic powers, known as WAAAGH power [which is the same power that gives Gork and Mork power. It multiplies as more Orks ally, so 2 Orks allied have enough WAAAGH power for 4 unallied Orks, or something like that, so if alot of Orks ally G and M get alot more power from them than if twice their number were unallied] WAAAGH power makes the Orks' badly made guns not fall apart, fire further, have more strength etc. than they would have in human hands.
Nope.
The WAAAGH! is not determined by a simple mathematical equasion. It is a very fluid and variable thing, dependant on the number and mood of Orks present. The more Orks there are in a given spot, the more WAAAGH! energy builds up, and this is not a simple calculation based on the number, it's a general thing. The more excited Orks in a given location are, the more WAAAGH! energy they generate.
It is a build-up of pressure that overwhelms the Orks' senses and mind, drives them into action, and goads violence and conflict. This usually means a pub brawl, but get enough Orks together and this means a raid, or even an invasion.
The action of fighting stimulates more excitement that drives the Orks further into their highly motivated state, until they've worked it out of their system.

The only other method of release of WAAAGH! build-up is the more stunning and pyrotechnic displays of the Wierdboyz (who feel it FAR more strongly than other Orks)


The WAAAGH! has nothing to do with how well the Orks' weapons function. It is, in no way, associated with Orkoid technology. It is a psyko-biological effect and that's it




It could be that Mekboyz simply have an instinctive grasp of physics and solid engineering principles while the AM doesn't.
They do. It's quite literally 'in their genes'. They even have a better understanding of forcefield and tractor-beam technologies than the Imperium has ever managed in its long history (i.e. pre-Dark Age of Technology etc.)
Quality of materials and engineering, on the other hand... ;)