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MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 09:49
I'm not quite up on my Deathwatch fluff, but would they have scouts in their ranks?
Or are they just power armoured veterans with L33T skillz?

charlie_c67
10-06-2005, 09:56
Ok, can we have that last sentence completely in english please? It is a Portent/warseer rule.

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 10:07
are they just skilled veterans?

*hangs head in shame*

He Who Laughs
10-06-2005, 10:10
The Deathwatch are seen as "the best of the best of the best, SIR!!" (to quote Men In Black) - and because they aren't involved in the active growth of a Marines skills - like normal Chapters - they wouldn't use scouts, or more to the point, train scouts.

If you can only send 10 Marines into a Hiveship to rip it's heart out - you'd want the best Marines you can find.

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 10:12
alrighty then. The best of the best. No scouts.

He Who Laughs
10-06-2005, 10:14
By the way MidnightResistance, I like your Deathwing minis - the Termie conversions are cool. And I hope your Worldeaters all come up looking like the champ.

He Who Laughs, signing out.

Typheron
10-06-2005, 10:16
they Deathwatch are currently (althoughi think this may change sometime soon) not a codex chapter. They are a collection of marines from different chapters which are formed roughly whren and where the need arrises. Each marine is typically specilised in fighting different types of alien threats.

So you got a 'Nid problem you get all the nid fighters out and form them into one elite squad.

There not a chapter, they recruit on a tempory basis from all the available marine chapters uner the service of the Emperor, although there is some debate about exactly how long a marine is in service of the Deathwatch, although they afre said to normally return to there parent chapter after there mission is complete.

charlie_c67
10-06-2005, 10:23
Therefore scouts are entirely possible. Think along the lines of wolf scouts more than codex ones.

athamas
10-06-2005, 10:29
scouts would be possible, as they might recruite souts for a mission, as normal marines are just to... noisy!

however its unlikly as most scouts are less combat experienced, and thus not as good!

Typheron
10-06-2005, 11:26
Therefore scouts are entirely possible. Think along the lines of wolf scouts more than codex ones.

yeh that makes sence, there fully fledged space marines, there just wearing scout armour for whatever reason.

the word on the grape vine is that whatever codex they next show up in (xenos hunters i think) it will include approperate measures to allow a full force of deathwatch marines will full access to a SM armoury. Or so the story goes.

It makes sence that they would perhaps pull in bigger things as was required, i know i would like to have a few tanks covering me had i to go fight something nasty.

Karhedron
10-06-2005, 11:31
In the case of most Chapters, Scouts are not full Marines. They are new recruits still undergoing genetic modification and training.

The Death Watch does not recuit like other Chapters and has no specific geneseed of its own. Rather, fully trained Marines from other chapters are seconded to the Death Watch for a period of time. Thus the Death Watch has no recuits in its ranks, all of its troops are already fully trained and on lone from other chapters.

It is unlikely that Scouts from Codex chapters would join the Death Watch. Normally their Apothocaries would want to keep them near the chapter until their implants are fully completed. The Commanders would want them to be fully trained before sending them out and the Chaplains would want them fully versed in the Chapter creeds before they were exposed to other beliefs.

Thus I think it would be very unlikely that Scouts from normal Chapters would be join the Death Watch and the Death Watch would not have any of its own. For Chapters that have veteran-style Scouts (ie Space Wolves) then it is possible they might join the Deathwatch. However the fluff for Wolf Scouts suggests they are loners. If they find it hard to get along with their pack brothers, I doubt they would be very happy fighting beside other chapters.

Bmaxwell
10-06-2005, 15:11
but it would make alot of sense for normal marine to wear scout armour sort of like a kill team with the lighter armour they could do more covert operations.

im just thinking of the rule that as in chapter aproved 03

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 15:17
The only thing is that marines can infiltrate perfectly well with power armour on. So scout armour doesn't really give them any bonuses at all.

sulla
10-06-2005, 20:06
The only thing is that marines can infiltrate perfectly well with power armour on. So scout armour doesn't really give them any bonuses at all.

No-one really knows what the benefits of scout armour are. In game terms, we know it offers less protection than power armour but that both power armour and scout armour can be worn while infiltrating so why do wolf scouts wear scout armour when power armour would suffice?

There must be some benefit to make it worthwhile. Perhaps power armour needs regular servicing (every 3 wks or so?), perhaps marines can run faster in scout armour (unlikely since power armour actually compensates for your weight while scout armour doesn't) or run further (more likely since it wouldn't overheat due to no motorised parts). Perhaps it's just a weight consideration (the environment the marines work in won't support a 7ft + marine AND his archaic suit of armour) or it is an environment where the marine needs to do lots of forward rolls (sorry Grahem McNeill, marines can NOT do forward rolls in power armour and backpacks :evilgrin: ).

But whatever the reason, there must be SOME advantage to using scout armour. And because of that, I think that deathwatch would have access to it for their members when the occasion warrants it.

Rich
10-06-2005, 21:09
There was an old board game which featured SM scouts boarding Hive ships and attempting to destroy them from the inside - I would imagine that the Death Watch use socuts in much the same way, although with veteran marines equipped with all that extra wargear such as hellfire rounds and so forth, and not apprentice marines. You would have thought though that the benefit of a completely enclosed suit (such as power armour) would over rule the 'clunkiness' factor of power armour, although perhaps not. It probably has more to do with the ability to perform certain infiltration activities such as scaling cliffs where weight is a major consideration, and several hundred kilos of power armour is more of a restriction than anything else.

Koraath
10-06-2005, 22:06
i am making a deathwatch army at the moment and the scouts represent veteran scout sergeants drafted into the deathwatch as snipers and infiltrators

Illuminarch
11-06-2005, 05:41
alrighty then. The best of the best. No scouts.

Not all Chapters have the rule that scouts = initiates. Many, even Codex chapters (according to either Insignium or Index Astartes) have regularly trained, experienced veterans as scouts. In any case, Scout Sarges and Captains aren't rookies and could make the Deathwatch.

Cypher
11-06-2005, 06:04
The reason scouts wear scout armour is that they cant wear Marine power armour, on account of the fact that they dont have the black carapace (being, IIRC, the last of the upgrades a Marine receives).

just
11-06-2005, 06:21
I say its possibel, but not likely.

Rich
11-06-2005, 11:19
The reason scouts wear scout armour is that they cant wear Marine power armour, on account of the fact that they dont have the black carapace (being, IIRC, the last of the upgrades a Marine receives).

that's true, but that doesn't explain why their sergeants (who can wear power armour) wear scout armour also - evidently there is some kind of stealth advantage associated with scout armour which makes it valuable.

Lostanddamned
11-06-2005, 11:34
Could the stealth advantage be to do with the fact that it isnt power armour, so weighs less, is less cumbersome and allows faster movement?

Typheron
11-06-2005, 19:02
it could also doi with the fact the power armour probably makes a lot of noise, it does have a power plant on it to make it run after all. Its also its typically painted a bright colour of the chapter in question while scout armour tends to have less in the way of bright chapter markings and more in the way of camo.

MidnightResistance
11-06-2005, 19:04
In RT marines used to camo paint their armour for covert ops.

sulla
11-06-2005, 21:02
The reason scouts wear scout armour is that they cant wear Marine power armour, on account of the fact that they dont have the black carapace (being, IIRC, the last of the upgrades a Marine receives).

Wolf Scouts? What's their reason then, oh wise one?? :rolleyes:

Brother Othorio
11-06-2005, 21:23
There was an old board game which featured SM scouts boarding Hive ships and attempting to destroy them from the inside - I would imagine that the Death Watch use socuts in much the same way, although with veteran marines equipped with all that extra wargear such as hellfire rounds and so forth, and not apprentice marines.

ahh, Advanced Space Crusade.. the new nids have me wanting to pick up a copy on Ebay.. for those who dont know it, the benefit of Scout armour in it was that if a Scout squad was in a recon box, and the first exploration card of the turn was a Passages card, then the scouts extra mobility allowed them to turn over the next card (thereby allowing the marines to get to the ships vitals quicker, which reduces the amount of time the Hive has to awaken Tyranids from hibernation to oppose them) ~ i've always loved that rule

oh, and in ASC all Scout Heavy Bolters came with Hellfire Rounds as Standard!

DantesInferno
12-06-2005, 00:26
Wolf Scouts? What's their reason then, oh wise one?? :rolleyes:

Well, perhaps before you receive your Black Carapace, you can only wear scout armour, not power armour (because of the interface problems). However, once you do have the Black Carapace, you can wear both types of armour. Explains scout Vet Sgts too.

Illuminarch
12-06-2005, 02:23
The reason scouts wear scout armour is that they cant wear Marine power armour, on account of the fact that they dont have the black carapace (being, IIRC, the last of the upgrades a Marine receives).

That's the reason some scouts wear carapace armor. Also, the Black Carapace is not required to wear powered armor, as witness the Sisters of Battle. It may be required for fully effective utilization of the armor, including bio-monitoring, medicine injection, rapidity of reflex, etc... though.

devolutionary
12-06-2005, 02:57
Someone has already mentioned one of the reasons why I think Carapace armour is used for scouts, and that is weight. While speed and infiltration ability are not as such hindered by power armour, it is harder (hence why it is a Veteran Skill). Also, some areas on multiple planets, including our own, do not support a few hundred kilograms of man in as well as much more weight in armour. An example would be bogs and swamps, where Marines would literally sink. The lighter Scouts can negotiate this terrain much more easily.

That aside, you have to keep in mind that Power Armour is not easy to make, and highly prized. When you're in a unit that is performing reconnaisance, then Power Armour is not required, if only because the amount of combat you will see is minimal compared to the front line. Why risk Power Armour outside of proper fighting? Space Marines are a little possessive of their equipment after all ;)

Another point is size. Power Armour is huge, it's a monstrous piece of engineering, and as said in various pieces of fluff, the armour spirit does not like to be denied it's link to it's chapter (as camouflage would do to be effective). Scout armour, on the other hand, has no such annoying spiritual aspect (as ridiculous as it may be, for fluff purposes, we'll assume it exists) and so can be covered, hidden, painted, and all manner of other modifications made.

Just a few ideas on that one :)

mostholycerebus
12-06-2005, 03:21
Also, some areas on multiple planets, including our own, do not support a few hundred kilograms of man in as well as much more weight in armour.

This is exactly why our own effeorts at powered armor have been so stymied. Even using modern metals and plastics, they still focus too much weight on too small a footprint. Tends to bust through highways, floors, etc. DARPA has been working on this for quite awhile too.

devolutionary
12-06-2005, 03:37
This is exactly why our own effeorts at powered armor have been so stymied. Even using modern metals and plastics, they still focus too much weight on too small a footprint. Tends to bust through highways, floors, etc. DARPA has been working on this for quite awhile too.

Yep. It'd be cool if some was invented though, even if only in a minor form. The footprint will be insane though. It will literally be a walking tank.

Brother Othorio
12-06-2005, 18:05
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and as said in various pieces of fluff, the armour spirit does not like to be denied it's link to it's chapter (as camouflage would do to be effective).

some chapters are noted as making use of camoflage, so i think its more likely to vary from one suit of armour to another ~ maybe the suits own spirit is derived from the spirits of those who have worn the armour, so a suit worn but 30 successive Imperial Fists would react very poorly to being painted in camoflage, whereas a suit worn by 20 successive Raptor's would probably have no problem with it

oh and i definately concur about the sinkage issue..

Rich
12-06-2005, 19:30
Even scouts don't seem to use camoflage per se, more the use of camoflage cloaks and the like to break up their outline - tbh, SMs aren't the sneaky type! Although I have to admit, the lack of a machine spirit is a definate bonus as far as the rigors to which the armour is subjected to is concerned. Personally though, I would think that a combination of weight and reduced noise is probably the real reason - plus the lack of bulk allowing the marine to slip into smaller spaces for sniping and such like. I can't imagine marines in power armour crawling down narrow tubes or climbing trees for example.

just
13-06-2005, 01:08
That's the reason some scouts wear carapace armor. Also, the Black Carapace is not required to wear powered armor, as witness the Sisters of Battle. It may be required for fully effective utilization of the armor, including bio-monitoring, medicine injection, rapidity of reflex, etc... though.


There is power armour and there is power armour.

The armour worn by the Adepts Sororitas and the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition is just armour that offer really, really, really good protection. The powerarmour worn by the Adeptus Astartes is a different beast.

The differences between the two types of armour is, as you noted, most notable in the way that the user interacts with his or her armour. The Astartes armour has a full neural interface, the Sororitas hasn't.

charlie_c67
13-06-2005, 10:15
some chapters are noted as making use of camoflage

Err who? RT fluff-wise yes there was several, with the Red scorpions being very anti camoflage, but since then?

Sai-Lauren
13-06-2005, 10:43
Err who? RT fluff-wise yes there was several, with the Red scorpions being very anti camoflage, but since then?
Oh, White Scars in Arctic conditions, Space Wolves in urban... :D

Unfortunatly, most people do stick with the standard primary colours schemes, but camo schemes on power armour can look very good from a modelling point of view.


Wolf Scouts? What's their reason then, oh wise one?? :rolleyes:
Lower signature so they can slip past sensors more easily (no matter how well you baffle it, normal power armour will still have a high power signature, produce quite a lot of heat and make a lot of noise when it moves - and I'd personally like an option in the marine codex to give an officer (not a chaplain or librarian) - and possibly an HQ squad as well - carapace armour so an entire scout army is possible), less maintenance requirements (as there's virtually nothing to go wrong), lighter so they can approach through soft ground that the enemy might be less bothered about patrolling.

Those do for reasons? ;)

devolutionary
13-06-2005, 10:54
It has been noted in some campaign fluff that a few chapters use camouflage, though they're very rare these days. The fluff has become very spiritual since the initial RT days, at least in terms of armaments and equipment for hte elite

Brother Othorio
13-06-2005, 12:07
Err who? RT fluff-wise yes there was several, with the Red scorpions being very anti camoflage, but since then?

okay you've got me there.. i was referring to RT fluff (but hey, the most common example people use for the machine spirit not liking the armour to be repainted is the Ultramarine terminator suit loaned out to the Blood Angels which is RT fluff)

actually now i think of it i believe there is a *camoflaged Red Scorpion land raider in Imperial Armour II

*well, military type green instead of bright red or blue/black

charlie_c67
13-06-2005, 12:27
Don't tell Carab Cullin ;) he'll blast it as soon as see it.

Gavmo
04-07-2005, 12:30
Why not Deathwatch scouts?
If you need someone to go for a ninja mission, why not use a team of scout veteran seargents? They're still hard **** veteran marines, but they can do their scouting dutys. And why would they overlook Space Puppy scouts? They're un-happy old dudes with super C-4.
I'd use 'em! :evilgrin:

Gavmo
04-07-2005, 12:32
There is power armour and there is power armour.
The differences between the two types of armour is, as you noted, most notable in the way that the user interacts with his or her armour. The Astartes armour has a full neural interface, the Sororitas hasn't.

This is due to the Black Carapace. (Index Astartes I, I think)