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thrawn
29-05-2013, 12:59
For example, High Magic lore attribute is +1 to ward. if I or my opponent casts drain magic, is that also gone? or only "spells" and not the attributes?

bigbiggles
30-05-2013, 08:46
interesting, my gut reaction is no. Since I can't think of another lore attribute this would affect

Gidion
30-05-2013, 08:59
No Drain magic states it removes RiP spells and effects of other spells. The lore attribute is not a spell.

MyNameDidntFit
30-05-2013, 10:22
Is the Lore Attribute an effect of the spell? I would say yes.

I'd love for someone to tell me it's not, because that means Lore of Tzeentch gains extra dice AFTER a Miscast result is applied! :D

Jericho
31-05-2013, 14:40
My interpretation was that attributes remain, as they are distinctly separate from spell effects.

Zoolander
31-05-2013, 21:07
Lore Attributes are not spells nor spell effects. Ergo, no it does not.

theunwantedbeing
01-06-2013, 10:18
Lore attributes are special rules that apply to certain spells of a given lore.

So if a spell is removed, you'll lose the accompanying lore attribute effects (if any).

MyNameDidntFit
01-06-2013, 10:47
Lore Attributes are not spells nor spell effects. Ergo, no it does not.

So if I roll three sixes on with for Lore of Tzeentch's Infernal Gateway, do I roll for the miscast and then get 3 power dice back after the D6 dice lost from the pool?

I'd love if my group thought that--Tzeentch might be worthwhile.

theunwantedbeing
01-06-2013, 11:54
So if I roll three sixes on with for Lore of Tzeentch's Infernal Gateway, do I roll for the miscast and then get 3 power dice back after the D6 dice lost from the pool?

I'd love if my group thought that--Tzeentch might be worthwhile.

No, you get the 3 dice back before you roll for he miscast result.
Also miscasts don't stop a spell from being successfully cast.

cold0.0
09-06-2013, 01:58
So to cast Drain Magic there would have to be a Rip spell or a spell effect on the targeted unit for the spell to be cast at all ? Or can it be cast on a unit without a RiP spell or spell effect ?

cold0.0
09-06-2013, 02:03
only RiP or spell effects are ended on a successful casting . attributes aren't effected as I understand attributes.

MyNameDidntFit
09-06-2013, 02:40
No, you get the 3 dice back before you roll for he miscast result.
Also miscasts don't stop a spell from being successfully cast.

Yes, yes, I know that. My point is that anyone saying Shield of Saphery isn't affected by Drain Magic is also saying that Lore of Tzeentch's attribute occurs outside of the "spell's effects" and thus after the miscast. Or, for example, that a Lore of Life wizard could lose a wound to the miscast and then regain it from the attribute.

It's cockamamy nonsense, so I'm of the mind that lore attributes that offer such an effect as Shield of Saphery would indeed be removed by Drain Magic.

hamsterwheel
09-06-2013, 04:47
My opinion is No, the lore attribute is not affected by Drain magic. If it were, any life gained by the life lore attribute would immediately be lost, shadow wizards would swap back to their original places, tzeentch and death wizards would lose power dice that they may have already used. This opens a huge can of worms so it's easier to say no.

Mr_Rose
09-06-2013, 09:22
My opinion is No, the lore attribute is not affected by Drain magic. If it were, any life gained by the life lore attribute would immediately be lost, shadow wizards would swap back to their original places, tzeentch and death wizards would lose power dice that they may have already used. This opens a huge can of worms so it's easier to say no.

How do you figure any of that is possible? Those are things that happen once and are done, not ongoing effects. Using that logic, drain magic restores wounds inflicted by Fireball and turns the Skaven created by the dreaded 13th back into whatever they were before… heck, your own example with Lifebloom trips you up: if wounds restored are an enduring effect that can be removed, what happens to the wounds restored by Regrowth when you cast drain magic? And don't say that Regrowth only restores models; it specifically restores wounds to multi-wound infantry.

No, the lore attribute is part of the spell, or the whole lore of metal can never do damage at all and the attributes of fire, light, and beasts magic may as well not be there.

hamsterwheel
09-06-2013, 14:28
How do you figure any of that is possible? Those are things that happen once and are done, not ongoing effects. Using that logic, drain magic restores wounds inflicted by Fireball and turns the Skaven created by the dreaded 13th back into whatever they were before… heck, your own example with Lifebloom trips you up: if wounds restored are an enduring effect that can be removed, what happens to the wounds restored by Regrowth when you cast drain magic? And don't say that Regrowth only restores models; it specifically restores wounds to multi-wound infantry.

No, the lore attribute is part of the spell, or the whole lore of metal can never do damage at all and the attributes of fire, light, and beasts magic may as well not be there.

I don't figure it's possible which is why I answered the way I did. Almost every lore has a spell that gives an on-going effect so each lore could be the target for a drain magic cast and in the majority of those lores, the lore effect could not be affected as it would break the game. Now if you want to argue that only certain lore effects that give an on-going effect(Shield of Saphery) can be removed by drain magic then that is a valid argument, if not a little bit unbalanced versus certain lores.

Edit: Also, I never once said that the lore attributes aren't part of the spell. I was answering the original question which is, should drain magic be able to remove the lore attribute since it's removing the spell?

Mr_Rose
09-06-2013, 15:47
Yes, of course it should. You are making an analytical mistake in separating out spell effects into "attribute" and "non-attribute" classes when the only relevant distinction is persistence.

Consider spells like Flaming Sword of Rhuin or The Curse of Anraheir that have limited duration effects but which are not Remains in Play spells; those ongoing effects would be disrupted by Drain Magic, yes?

Consider then a more complex example like Fulminating Flame Cage which has an instantaneous effect of dealing some damage then an ongoing effect that waits until some trigger to do more damage; Drain Magic would break the cage and prevent it doing damage letter but it would not stop or reverse the initial damage, yes?

Now, as far as I'm concerned, Drain Magic would also cancel the Kindleflame effect, preventing subsequent Lore of Fire spells from gaining the bonus to cast vs. the targeted unit, but the circumstances under which that would be relevant are vanishingly rare. Nevertheless, I reckon Kindleflame to be part of the spell and therefore an ongoing effect of the spell. Ditto Shield of Saphery; the effect exists because of the spell and persists because it says it does, so Drain Magic, which specifically interacts with such effects in a unique way, must affect it.

hamsterwheel
09-06-2013, 16:05
Yes, of course it should. You are making an analytical mistake in separating out spell effects into "attribute" and "non-attribute" classes when the only relevant distinction is persistence.

Consider spells like Flaming Sword of Rhuin or The Curse of Anraheir that have limited duration effects but which are not Remains in Play spells; those ongoing effects would be disrupted by Drain Magic, yes?

Consider then a more complex example like Fulminating Flame Cage which has an instantaneous effect of dealing some damage then an ongoing effect that waits until some trigger to do more damage; Drain Magic would break the cage and prevent it doing damage letter but it would not stop or reverse the initial damage, yes?

Now, as far as I'm concerned, Drain Magic would also cancel the Kindleflame effect, preventing subsequent Lore of Fire spells from gaining the bonus to cast vs. the targeted unit, but the circumstances under which that would be relevant are vanishingly rare. Nevertheless, I reckon Kindleflame to be part of the spell and therefore an ongoing effect of the spell. Ditto Shield of Saphery; the effect exists because of the spell and persists because it says it does, so Drain Magic, which specifically interacts with such effects in a unique way, must affect it.

If the two cannot be separated, then are all spells that have a persistent lore effect valid targets of the drain magic spell?

Mr_Rose
09-06-2013, 16:17
If the two cannot be separated, then are all spells that have a persistent lore effect valid targets of the drain magic spell?

No, but mostly because Drain Magic targets units, not spells (sorry, its just that that's the second time I've seen it phrased like that and i don't know where it's coming from, nothing personal).

In the spirit of the question though, I say: yes, if a spell produced an ongoing effect on a unit, that effect will be cancelled when that unit is hit with drain magic, regardless of whether that effect came from the main spell entry or the lore attribute entry.
Going back to the Lore of Fire, if something had been hit with a Fireball and then a Drain Magic, I would say that the next Lore of Fire spell targeted against that unit would not benefit from the Kindleflame bonus to cast it.

hamsterwheel
09-06-2013, 16:25
No, but mostly because Drain Magic targets units, not spells (sorry, its just that that's the second time I've seen it phrased like that and i don't know where it's coming from, nothing personal).

In the spirit of the question though, I say: yes, if a spell produced an ongoing effect on a unit, that effect will be cancelled when that unit is hit with drain magic, regardless of whether that effect came from the main spell entry or the lore attribute entry.
Going back to the Lore of Fire, if something had been hit with a Fireball and then a Drain Magic, I would say that the next Lore of Fire spell targeted against that unit would not benefit from the Kindleflame bonus to cast it.

Now that I think about it, I agree with your assessment. I was looking at the question wrong, I was thinking that the spells or spell effects were the target which of course is ridiculous. Units are the target and any persistent effect caused by a spell would be lost.

Figment187
10-06-2013, 05:37
Anyone who thinks that Drain Magic affects lore attributes is completely wrong. Drain magic only affects remains in play spells and any spell affects on a unit. Lore attributes are neither spells, spell affects, or remains in play spells. It has no affect whatsoever on lore attributes.

Mr_Rose
10-06-2013, 07:11
So there are some effects that happen only when you cast a spell that are somehow not spell effects? :eyebrows:
Yeah definitely a [citation needed] :chrome:

Lord Solar Plexus
10-06-2013, 08:50
An attribute is the effect of a spell. Call it a side effect.


My opinion is No, the lore attribute is not affected by Drain magic. If it were, any life gained by the life lore attribute would immediately be lost, shadow wizards would swap back to their original places, tzeentch and death wizards would lose power dice that they may have already used. This opens a huge can of worms so it's easier to say no.

All of that is unpracticable bordering on impossible, so while it can be argued that swapping places is an effect, it's simply inconceivable. None of those things are permanent in the same sense as the ward increase either.

theunwantedbeing
10-06-2013, 11:21
None of those things are permanent in the same sense as the ward increase either.

The only lore attribute that have a lasting effect seem to be the WoC Lore of Nurgle and the WoC Lore of Slaanesh.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-06-2013, 12:51
Sounds about right. I see no problem with Drain magic removing those effects.

hamsterwheel
11-06-2013, 13:42
Now I'm a bit confused. Are you guys saying that a permanent effect like the lore attribute from the WoC lore of nurgle can be removed?

Mr_Rose
11-06-2013, 13:50
Hm, that's tricky. Could be a bad precedent since they don't gain a wound until some duration expires or condition occurs. Looks like a one-shot from that, and would be unaffected.

In fact i think that has to be the key; if the effect specifies a duration itself then that duration can be summarily ended by Drain Magic otherwise no dice. It has to be that way or you open the door to models being resurrected because that fireball they were hit with two turns ago had the persistent effect of killing dudes.

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2013, 14:13
Now I'm a bit confused. Are you guys saying that a permanent effect like the lore attribute from the WoC lore of nurgle can be removed?

The effect isn't permanent, it lasts for the rest of the game.

yeknoMehT
11-06-2013, 14:14
Hm, that's tricky. Could be a bad precedent since they don't gain a wound until some duration expires or condition occurs. Looks like a one-shot from that, and would be unaffected.

In fact i think that has to be the key; if the effect specifies a duration itself then that duration can be summarily ended by Drain Magic otherwise no dice. It has to be that way or you open the door to models being resurrected because that fireball they were hit with two turns ago had the persistent effect of killing dudes.

You need to be careful with that line of thinking about wounds. There are two different things here: your wounds (W) stat on your profile is the number of wounds you can take before being killed. The common wording of 'losing' a wound is misleading - in game terms you are receiving a wound, and once you have received wounds equal to or greater than your W stat, you die.
Getting +1W from a lore attribute is just a statistic modifier (like +1WS), and is therefore distinct from the actual wounds received by a model (which drain magic could not affect).

hamsterwheel
11-06-2013, 16:03
The effect isn't permanent, it lasts for the rest of the game.

By this definition, everything that happens in every phase is only temporary.

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2013, 16:30
By this definition, everything that happens in every phase is only temporary.

Feel free to elaborate.

hamsterwheel
11-06-2013, 16:48
Feel free to elaborate.

Well, my models die due to a spell, at the end of game those models still go in my carrying case. It's not like they suddenly burst into flames because my opponent cast fireball on them. Those same models are then placed for my next match, thus the effects of them dying only last until the end of the game. If a model receives a bonus and it's until the end of the game, that's as permanent as this game goes.

yeknoMehT
11-06-2013, 16:50
Is there a problem with that?

hamsterwheel
11-06-2013, 16:58
Is there a problem with that?

Yes, because if drain magic can remove permanent effects then as Mr_Rose pointed out, guys dying from a spell is a permanent effect of a spell.

How would you guys play it concerning the bound spell on the WoC warshrine? The rolls on the EotGs table were designed to be permanent.

yeknoMehT
11-06-2013, 18:00
Yes, because if drain magic can remove permanent effects then as Mr_Rose pointed out, guys dying from a spell is a permanent effect of a spell.

How would you guys play it concerning the bound spell on the WoC warshrine? The rolls on the EotGs table were designed to be permanent.

A guy dying from a spell is not a permanent effect of a spell. The hits that are generated by the spell are an effect from the spell. The rest is just the game continuing as normal (rolls to wound, armour saves etc). It's not really that complicated - is it something that the spell tells you that you get? If yes, drain magic will end it, if not (for example the charges from the wand of whimsy, which are from the item, not a spell) then it will remain.

So the example of the WoC warshrine bound spell, which gives you a roll on the table*. The effect of that roll is not a direct effect of the spell (the spell doesn't include the table, just gives you a roll on it) so couldn't be removed with drain magic.

*I'm going off memory of the wording of the warshrine, since I've not seen one in action for a while - if it has some odd wording like 'roll 2D6 and apply the listed result from the EotG table for the rest of the game' then there might be an argument for it being removed, since it would then bring the EotG effect into the spells rules. I doubt that would be the way it's worded though.

hamsterwheel
11-06-2013, 18:36
Here's another scenario. WoC Daemon Prince has cast for 4 magic phases and it has managed to accumulate a +3 Toughness and +3 Wounds. It then gets hit with a spell and loses 4 wounds by the spell, the HE wizard then casts Dispel Magic on the Daemon Prince and the DP fails to dispel the Dispel Magic, does the Prince die?

yeknoMehT
11-06-2013, 20:49
Yes, as he now has suffered more wounds than his W statistic.

Figment187
12-06-2013, 01:14
The ruling of Drain Magic is very specific about what it affects. It only affects remains in play spells and spells that are currently in affect on targeted unit. It does not in anyway have any affect on lore attributes, as per the rules they are not spells or spell affects, they are lore attributes. Once lore attributes are in affect you can't get rid of them short of killing the entire unit that has the lore attribute in it.

bigbiggles
12-06-2013, 05:01
For ease of play, I think drain magic was not intended to stop lore attributes

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2013, 08:54
The ruling of Drain Magic is very specific about what it affects. It only affects remains in play spells and spells that are currently in affect on targeted unit. It does not in anyway have any affect on lore attributes, as per the rules they are not spells or spell affects, they are lore attributes. Once lore attributes are in affect you can't get rid of them short of killing the entire unit that has the lore attribute in it.

Lore attributes are Spell effects.
Drain magic removes Spells and their Effects.

It's pretty clear cut.

Mr_Rose
12-06-2013, 14:00
The ruling of Drain Magic is very specific about what it affects. It only affects remains in play spells and spells that are currently in affect on targeted unit. It does not in anyway have any affect on lore attributes, as per the rules they are not spells or spell affects, they are lore attributes. Once lore attributes are in affect you can't get rid of them short of killing the entire unit that has the lore attribute in it.

Lore attributes are Spell effects.
Drain magic removes Spells and their Effects.

It's pretty clear cut.

Yeah, I can't believe this needs repeating but apparently some people believe that effects generated by spells are not spell effects. If this is so, within the rules of Warhammer, could anyone who believes this please find a citation from a current official resource (rulebook, army books, current errata) that asserts this distinction?
Or, in shorter form: [citation needed]

Damocles8
12-06-2013, 17:41
Yes, yes, I know that. My point is that anyone saying Shield of Saphery isn't affected by Drain Magic is also saying that Lore of Tzeentch's attribute occurs outside of the "spell's effects" and thus after the miscast. Or, for example, that a Lore of Life wizard could lose a wound to the miscast and then regain it from the attribute.

It's cockamamy nonsense, so I'm of the mind that lore attributes that offer such an effect as Shield of Saphery would indeed be removed by Drain Magic.

When you miscast, you resolve the spell (and lore attribute effects) then you resolve the miscast.

cold0.0
13-06-2013, 06:39
Reading the Drain magic spell. It is either a Hex or a Augment. Removing any RIP or Spell Effect. So IMO when Drain Magic is cast on a friend (augment) or a enemy ( Hex ) all RIP and SPELL effects are removed.

So the main argument is Lore Attributes considered a spell effect ? RIP and a spell effect ( A spell that was casted ) lasting to the next players turn would be removed.

Figment187
14-06-2013, 02:04
I guess it could be argued that Drain Magic would remove a continuing Lore Attribute, like the one from the lore of fire or high magic. But there is no way that you are going to convince someone at a tournament that it will remove a permanent affect such as the life gain from the lore of life or vampires, or even the +1 toughness and wounds from the lore of nurgle. Once that starts happening you are going to have the people who will keep track of previous wounds to a unit from a direct damage spell and say that they are affects of a spell and get them back. It will open up all kinds of nonsense like teleporting a caster back to the previous unit, or killing a unit from raise dead, which they will argue is all technically from spell affects.

yeknoMehT
14-06-2013, 08:12
I guess it could be argued that Drain Magic would remove a continuing Lore Attribute, like the one from the lore of fire or high magic. But there is no way that you are going to convince someone at a tournament that it will remove a permanent affect such as the life gain from the lore of life or vampires, or even the +1 toughness and wounds from the lore of nurgle. Once that starts happening you are going to have the people who will keep track of previous wounds to a unit from a direct damage spell and say that they are affects of a spell and get them back. It will open up all kinds of nonsense like teleporting a caster back to the previous unit, or killing a unit from raise dead, which they will argue is all technically from spell affects.

You need to be careful distinguishing between spell effects, and consequences of a spell effect. The wounds recovered by lore of life/vampires are a consequence of the lore attribute's effect, and so cannot be removed. The bonus to statistics from the WoC lores of magic are a direct spell effect, so can be ended.

Wounds from spells/attributes are not spell effects, they are just consequences from casting the spell (which is not the same thing - it's a couple of steps down from there), same for summoned units, magic movement effects etc.

There's usually a simple way to tell if something is a continuous effect - read the spell (including attribute), there are things it tells you to do (roll for damage, modify statistics, move models, heal wounds etc.): are you still doing them? If so, it's a continuous effect. If not, it's probably not a continuous effect.

There are some cases (e.g. flame cage) where you're not actually doing anything, but there is a trigger that will cause you to do something (movement), which is also a continuous effect.

Spiney Norman
14-06-2013, 08:42
Hm, that's tricky. Could be a bad precedent since they don't gain a wound until some duration expires or condition occurs. Looks like a one-shot from that, and would be unaffected.

In fact i think that has to be the key; if the effect specifies a duration itself then that duration can be summarily ended by Drain Magic otherwise no dice. It has to be that way or you open the door to models being resurrected because that fireball they were hit with two turns ago had the persistent effect of killing dudes.

I think drain magic would remove the nurgle attribute, I also think it would remove the effect of a plague of rust spell however many times it had been cast on a target unit.

Spells that cause casualties do not have an ongoing effect, there is nothing in the rules to suggest that once you have killed a model you have to carry on keeping it dead for the rest of the game. Drain magic does not reverse what is already done, it cancels whatever is being kept on doing (not sure about the grammar of that sentence but hopefully you get what I'm aiming at). The nurgle attribute and plague of rust both count as "spells lasting one or more turns", although the nurgle attribute is obviously a spell effect that lasts one or more turns, and these explicitly are effected by drain magic.

Shield of saphery that is already in play would be effected by drain magic, I'm not certain whether a wizard casting drain magic on himself/his own unit would gain +1 to his ward save from that cast or not, it depends if you can prove an implied order for resolving the spell and activating the lore attribute. Some attributes have to be in play during spell resolution (lore of metal) and some cannot activate until after spell resolution has completed (lore of death), but shield of saphery isn't really clear either way.

I would probably say that in the absence of clear ruling in the BRB the casting player can choose which order he resolves the spell effect/attribute effect in, so he can resolve the drain magic spell and then activate the attribute, giving the unit +1 to their ward which comes into effect after DM has resolved.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-06-2013, 11:00
Now I'm a bit confused. Are you guys saying that a permanent effect like the lore attribute from the WoC lore of nurgle can be removed?

Ah, sorry. "Permanent" is not quite the correct choice. The way I see it is this: Some effects or results or whatever you want to call them take place in a millisecond - raise a model back, heal a wound, swap place. You do it and are done with it, the effect is over.

A stat increase might not be permanent, it could last just one turn or all game, whatever, but it is active so to say. If you're +2 T or +1 ward, it comes into effect all the time someone hits or shoots you. Those others above just aren't active anymore. Yes, of course they also have consequences but that is misleading and trivial. Drain Magic cannot remove anything magical that has consequences or because of that.

Call me a hater but it's once more GW's fault. It would have been so stupidly easy to write it clearly but no...