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View Full Version : Which action goes first and why? Diagram Attached.



b4z
01-06-2013, 18:02
Look at the Diagram...

171742

Extra Notes:
It is the Tomb Kings Player Turn.
The High Elves won the Combat.

RejjeN
01-06-2013, 18:20
I'm a little unsure about how the Necrosphinx wouldn't have crumbled, would the "no more enemies" clause work in this case?

As to which is done first, as they are both done after combat resolution (and subsequently after break tests and such) I would assume they would happen simultaneously, as a result it would be the one who's turn it is (TK in this case I guess) that would choose... GW's "solution" to the "things happening simultaneously" problem >>;

However if there's a reason why they shouldn't happen simultaneously then I'll gladly accept being wrong

Drallig
01-06-2013, 18:42
I agree with the fact on how the Necrosphinx managed not to crumble, but it's effectively one large multiple combat so I'd assume that the combat resolution applies to all units and 'combat reform' would result in the Necrosphinx and Elves being repositioned so they could fight each other.

b4z
01-06-2013, 19:25
Ignore the fact it is Tomb Kings, and a Necrosphinx, [and Crumbling etc.] just substitute the units for anything in your mind.

theunwantedbeing
01-06-2013, 19:27
Assuming the Sphinx won, he gets an overrun if he wants and the Elves have to take a test to see if they can reform.
Assuming the Sphinx lost, he's allowed to take a leadership test to reform, the elves get a free reform.

As to the order...not a clue.
Tomb king players turn, they decide or just roll to see which goes first.

b4z
01-06-2013, 19:31
The Chariots and Necrosphinx were both part of the same Multiple Combat.

The Tomb Kings lost the overall Multiple Combat.

At the end of the Combat the Necrosphinx is no longer part of the Multiple Combat.

The Necrosphinx was on the losing side of the overall Multiple Combat.... and therefore cannot Overrun and may only Reform?

But... The Necrosphinx charged into the Great Eagle, killed it, and therefore you would think it could overrun?

bigbiggles
01-06-2013, 19:38
I think since it is the to players turn, he can decide to overrun first, hitting the flank of the elves. But if it were me I would probably roll it off to make it more fair

theunwantedbeing
01-06-2013, 19:42
The Necrosphinx was on the losing side of the overall Multiple Combat.... and therefore cannot Overrun and may only Reform?


You need to charge and win the combat to be allowed an overrun.
In a multiple combat, there is still a combat resolution to happen even if that particular unit is no longer in base contact with any enemies.

Had he been on his own, he'd get an overrun.
Had he won the combat, he'd get an overrun.
As he charged and was on the losing side of the multiple combat, there is no overrun.

b4z
01-06-2013, 19:44
Okay Thanks.

So im assuming then the Necrosphinx does suffer Crumbling from the result of the Multiple Combat even though it is no longer in base contact with any enemies?

theunwantedbeing
01-06-2013, 19:48
Okay Thanks.

So im assuming then the Necrosphinx does suffer Crumbling from the result of the Multiple Combat even though it is no longer in base contact with any enemies?

Yup, he's still part of the multiple combat and unfortunately on the losing side.

b4z
01-06-2013, 19:48
Okay, Thanks. :)

thesoundofmusica
01-06-2013, 20:04
The rulebook is quite clear in which order those things happen (page 46, small book).

Step 3: combat reform
Step 4: pursuit/overrun


Edit: dont know if it matters but step 1 is "fighting a round of close combat" and page 61 (small book, no more foes paragraph) says "In multiple combats it can happen that after a round of close combat some units are no longer engaged with any enemy unit, normally because the unit they were engaged with has been destroyed. Such units are out of combat for all purposes and can move normally from then on." It continues to explain how these units affect the combat they were just part of (wounds inflicted count, bonuses for charge, ranks etc do not but I dont think that matters. (Edit: it matters of course in that it tells us that this does indeed happen at step 1, before result etc).

Does that mean that the Necrosphinx can avoid crumbling since 'calculating result' is step 2 and 'break test and reform' is step 3?

FatTrucker
01-06-2013, 20:57
All units in a multiple combat share the combat res so in this case the necrosphinx would still have to test by however much the overall combat was lost by after calculating all wounds caused by both sides.

So yes the NS would suffer from crumble, and if it survived wouldn't get an overrun because it didn't win combat.

In the description it states 'after a round of close combat' a round of close combat is over after combat res is applied and any tests/reforms have been made. The rule simply clarifies that when the round of combat is over any units left unengaged are not obliged to re-engage with anything that's left.

RejjeN
01-06-2013, 21:02
You need to charge and win the combat to be allowed an overrun.
In a multiple combat, there is still a combat resolution to happen even if that particular unit is no longer in base contact with any enemies.

Had he been on his own, he'd get an overrun.
Had he won the combat, he'd get an overrun.
As he charged and was on the losing side of the multiple combat, there is no overrun.
Ah yeah, this makes more sense, knew I was missing something...

To add to the discussion, if you reversed the situation (skeleton warriors flanked by tiranoc chariot(s) for instance), and the skeletons managed to destroy the chariots despite taking a truckload of casualties as a result, if you managed to also destroy the Eagle this would result in a win-by-default as there would no longer be any enemies left in the combat at all, meaning no combat resolution (and as a result no spontaneous crumbling).

Off topic, but the whole thing bothers me a little, why would a Necrosphinx charge a Eagle instead of a big fat infantry unit that it can thunderstomp?

thesoundofmusica
01-06-2013, 21:06
In the description it states 'after a round of close combat' a round of close combat is over after combat res is applied and any tests/reforms have been made. The rule simply clarifies that when the round of combat is over any units left unengaged are not obliged to re-engage with anything that's left.

Are you sure? Because the rulebook calls that a "close combat phase".

And this phase is broken down like so:
1) fight a round of close combat
2) calculate result
3) break test and reforms
4) flee and pusuit/overrun

I dunno but it's pretty clear to me that the Necroaphinx leaves the combat at stage 1, possibly between 1 and 2. "Out of combat for all purposes".

T10
02-06-2013, 09:42
Obviously the rules do not cover this exact situation, so whatever way you resolve it has to come down to your personal interpretation.

In my opinion, the Necrosphinx qualifies for the Wipeout! part of the combat result rules on p. 53 since he has successfully destroyed all enemy units he was fighting. Whether or not his side won the combat does not really matter since he is no longer a part of it. In his own little universe, he is the victor. The same applies to the Spearelves.

Further, it seems to me that the following actions effectively come at the same time: Combat Reform (in case of an on-going combat), Pursuit/Overrun and Restrain-and-Reform. The reason for this is that they all come at what is effectively the end of the combat round, after combat results and break tests: A unit will be making a Combat Reform instead of making a Pursuit move, a unit will be making a Restrain-and-Reform istead of a Pursuit or Overrun move.


I would apply the rules for Multiple Combats and Pursuit (p. 60) and the Combat Reform, Unusual Situations (p. 55): First roll off to pick a player to decide which side is the first to resolve all his Combat Reforms, Pursuit/Overrun moves and Restrain-and-Reforms. Each side resolves the above actions for each of their units, one at a time.

b4z
02-06-2013, 10:53
The issues that are arising from this discussion are exactly why i posted this thread. It isn't as clear as it seems...


Off topic, but the whole thing bothers me a little, why would a Necrosphinx charge a Eagle instead of a big fat infantry unit that it can thunderstomp?
To save your sanity ;) There was a Building just South West of the Eagle, which prevented the Necrosphinx charging the Spearmen.

FatTrucker
02-06-2013, 11:32
Just been reading through the relevant sections in the book and it is pretty contradictory. 'All units on the defeated side must take a break test' 'when the winning side has been determined in a multiple combat you need to take a break test for every unit on the losing side'

But 'such units are out of combat for all purposes and can move normally from then on'
And 'any combat result that unit would have added for wounds inflicted are still counted for the fights overall combat res but other bonuses are not'

So maybe, maybe not then.

HurrDurr
03-06-2013, 05:28
All enemy models in the combat are destroyed on the turn the unit charged in, regardless of combat resolution being a win or a loss allows an overrun. At least thats what it says in the book, unless it corrects me in a later segment somewhere. So you can lose a combat by 10 resolution but if they all die you get an overrun and it might count as a won combat.