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Xaric
03-06-2013, 13:49
i am a Chaos daemon player who plays a tzeentch and i would like to know did runes of warding get changed in the new eldar codex?

Emissary
03-06-2013, 14:00
Yeah, they got nerfed into the ground, then they took a drill, dug deeper and buried them there. You also won't see farseers taken as allies to bring them either. They just give a +2 to deny the witch to the farseer's unit once a game now.

Xaric
03-06-2013, 14:03
Muhahahah the day is mine now Eldar !!! bring in the pyskers :D

Poseidal
03-06-2013, 14:05
Muhahahah the day is mine now Eldar !!! bring in the pyskers :D

Good luck.

You'll need it as you'll be pretty much playing without armour saves. ;)

Valek
03-06-2013, 14:12
Now we still need a nerf on those crap wolf runesticks

Xaric
03-06-2013, 14:16
Good luck.

You'll need it as you'll be pretty much playing without armour saves. ;)

why would i need armour saves i get +5 possible +4 as daemons with invunirbal saves :D

Minsc
03-06-2013, 14:21
Now we still need a nerf on those crap wolf runesticks

Patience young padawan, it will come. It will come.

Xaric
03-06-2013, 14:26
Now we still need a nerf on those crap wolf runesticks

yep thats next to get a big fat nerf possible once a use per turn like the staff of tomorrow :D then we can have staff battles :D

Malagor
03-06-2013, 14:29
Wonder what will happen to Shadow of the Warp when the Nids hit ?

Minsc
03-06-2013, 14:33
Wonder what will happen to Shadow of the Warp when the Nids hit ?

Synapse gets +1 to DtW? Herp derp...

Xaric
03-06-2013, 14:38
Wonder what will happen to Shadow of the Warp when the Nids hit ?

nids will possibly have some changeis to it but it seems quite balanced because its a low chance of the 3ed dice rolling a 1 or a 6 then one of the other 2 dice must roll to match the 1 or 6 :) not like how eldar was with roll 3 dice oh look +12 your model dies *troll face*

Cheeslord
03-06-2013, 15:55
At least now we don't have Eldar Prunes stacking with the GK defence in allied games giving 50% chance to fail to case followed by 50% chance to be wolf-sticked followed by Deny the Witch (which will probably be 5+ or 4+ with that many psykers about) for a 1/6 chance of getting to cast the power at all...

Shamana
03-06-2013, 16:47
At least now we don't have Eldar Prunes stacking with the GK defence in allied games giving 50% chance to fail to case followed by 50% chance to be wolf-sticked followed by Deny the Witch (which will probably be 5+ or 4+ with that many psykers about) for a 1/6 chance of getting to cast the power at all...

Sure, but back then eldar essentially shut down GK psychic powers too - now they don't.

It feels a bit weird hoping that eldar would get somethink like psychic hoods on their farseers, though. I'd much rather pay 10-15 points for something that causes a good defense bubble.

Israfael
03-06-2013, 17:12
Once the teeth-gnashing ends, I'm sure that even Eldar players will realize that it was a positive change for the hobby as a whole.

As it was, Eldar players completely nullified an enemies HQ/HQs - and more, if you ran Daemons - for a comically small investment.

Azulthar
03-06-2013, 19:00
Synapse gets +1 to DtW? Herp derp...
I hope not, though it would fit with the current trend. Shadow in the Warp should disrupt all (non-Tyranid) psychic activity, not just powers aimed at the 'nids themselves.

Perhaps something like -1 Ld for psychic tests while within 12" of a synapse creature.

Shamana
03-06-2013, 19:05
Once the teeth-gnashing ends, I'm sure that even Eldar players will realize that it was a positive change for the hobby as a whole.

As it was, Eldar players completely nullified an enemies HQ/HQs - and more, if you ran Daemons - for a comically small investment.

Oh, the old runes were way too good. They just didn't have to be made that bad. Eldar psychics used to be about reliability and defense, now they have some of the lowest LD psykers and worse psychic defense than any loyalist marine army. Would it have killed the game if the runes just became a, say, 6-12 inch bubble and a bit more expensive?

Xaric
03-06-2013, 20:41
because GW want to sell more models so they make the models that are the least sold really strong and overshadow the currently good models

CrownAxe
03-06-2013, 20:44
Oh, the old runes were way too good. They just didn't have to be made that bad. Eldar psychics used to be about reliability and defense, now they have some of the lowest LD psykers and worse psychic defense than any loyalist marine army. Would it have killed the game if the runes just became a, say, 6-12 inch bubble and a bit more expensive?

eldar are now tied with daemons for lowest ld psyker

Cheeslord
03-06-2013, 22:00
eldar are now tied with daemons for lowest ld psyker

is this a new design feature - low Ld psykers? the latest Space marines were still Ld10 weren't they? maybe it will only be filthy Xenos that get unreliable psychic powers...

Mark.

Bubble Ghost
03-06-2013, 23:25
is this a new design feature - low Ld psykers?

I think lower Ld psykers is deliberate - just as lower Ld in general seems to be. Before, psykers were all Ld 10, which was transparently just to make psychic powers reliable - it kind of begged the question of why there was even a Leadership based mechanic for it in the first place, and turned all psykers into excellent leaders of men while they are at it. It was just silly. You can guarantee the Spirit Seer would have Ld 10 had this book been written in 5th ed. The Daemon book is an even starker illustration of it - actual proper Ld values again instead of just giving everybody 10s! The Ld stat actually does something again!!! It's a vast improvement, I think.

Bear in mind that Eldar have the best psykers in the game (Farseers just about beat Chaos Sorcerers); they just also have a ton of other other psykers that nobody else even has an equivalent of, who happen to have a lower Ld. It's representative of more psychic power as a race, not less.

Shamana
04-06-2013, 00:14
Bear in mind that Eldar have the best psykers in the game (Farseers just about beat Chaos Sorcerers); they just also have a ton of other other psykers that nobody else even has an equivalent of, who happen to have a lower Ld. It's representative of more psychic power as a race, not less.

Eh... It isn't only about power. It's about reliability. Essentially, non-farseer psykers in the previous codex gave the unit a rule or a piece of wargear. I.e. a warlock with destructor had a heavy flamer - no more, no less. Embolden was used to make a squad stubborn, etc - essentially it's just a regular unit upgrade with psychic flavor. They had the LD they needed. But if they are actual psykers who need to roll to fulfill their function then reliability becomes a serious design issue. If you want a unit to perform a specific role, but the model that provides that role can not function or even die.. isn't it a problem?

To me the biggest case in point are harlequins. Whatever they were once, now they are T3 models with S4 on the charge and 5++ at a very high cost. In itself, this is pretty much unplayable - way worse than the much-maligned banshees. You HAVE to pay for a shadowseer for the unit to actually work - to assault as if having grenades and to have their one real defense: an ability that prevents non-near enemies from shooting. Good so far - only this ability that you paid for doesn't always work. It can derp and leave your expensive, frail models with all the protection of T3 5++ save for a turn. Or it can flat-out kill the shadowseer, which leaves harlequins exposed for the rest of the game and without a key offensive ability, crippling the unit.

Ok, this is an extreme case: unlike harlequins, guardians can do something on their own. Still, when other armies have support mechanics that they don't have to cast for, it's a bonus for them. Tyranid synapse/Shadow in the Warp doesn't derp and malfunction and/or kill the synapse creature, and Sanguinary priests don't have to roll to see if they actually buff their allies.

Israfael
04-06-2013, 01:11
Eh... It isn't only about power. It's about reliability. Essentially, non-farseer psykers in the previous codex gave the unit a rule or a piece of wargear. I.e. a warlock with destructor had a heavy flamer - no more, no less. Embolden was used to make a squad stubborn, etc - essentially it's just a regular unit upgrade with psychic flavor. They had the LD they needed. But if they are actual psykers who need to roll to fulfill their function then reliability becomes a serious design issue. If you want a unit to perform a specific role, but the model that provides that role can not function or even die.. isn't it a problem?

How is that at all different from what happened to the sorcerer 'sergeant' in a Thousand Sons rubric squad? They lost the ability to reliably give the squad some anti-tank via bolt of change, and now they have to play 'spin the wheel' of random on possibly the weakest psychic lore table in the game at this moment.

Do you feel that Eldar should somehow be the exception to the change?


To me the biggest case in point are harlequins. Whatever they were once, now they are T3 models with S4 on the charge and 5++ at a very high cost. In itself, this is pretty much unplayable - way worse than the much-maligned banshees. You HAVE to pay for a shadowseer for the unit to actually work - to assault as if having grenades and to have their one real defense: an ability that prevents non-near enemies from shooting. Good so far - only this ability that you paid for doesn't always work. It can derp and leave your expensive, frail models with all the protection of T3 5++ save for a turn. Or it can flat-out kill the shadowseer, which leaves harlequins exposed for the rest of the game and without a key offensive ability, crippling the unit.

Again, it's just the edition switch. Games Workshop is apparently convinced that preemptive planning regarding how you intend to use your psyker is a 'no no'. We 'need' Fantasy elements forced down our throats.

daveNYC
04-06-2013, 11:14
Um, I don't think anyone is holding up the Thousand Sons as an example of how to design a unit; so no, just because the Aspiring Sorcerer is all herp-a-derp now doesn't mean that all other 'minor' psykers in the game should take a hit too.

Just because GW combined morale and magic into the same stat doesn't mean it's stuck that way, they already slapped a workaround on Tzeentch daemons, I'm pretty sure they could do the same to other armies.

Sad thing is you're right about this being deliberate. GW specifically dropped Warlocks LD, gave them random powers, had them roll for powers after being split off to units, and limited the units they could be attached to.

Shamana
04-06-2013, 11:21
How is that at all different from what happened to the sorcerer 'sergeant' in a Thousand Sons rubric squad? They lost the ability to reliably give the squad some anti-tank via bolt of change, and now they have to play 'spin the wheel' of random on possibly the weakest psychic lore table in the game at this moment.

Do you feel that Eldar should somehow be the exception to the change?

1. Thousand sons are simply badly executed. They should be fixed, not given as an example how similar units should work. Same for the lore of Tzeentch, really,
2. Aspiring sorcerers, for all their other issues, have the maximum possible base leadership, warlocks have some of the lowest LD for psykers. The thing about warlocks is that before they had mediocre leadership (for the game, where 8-9 is pretty common), but it wasn't a big issue since they didn't need to cast. Now they do, and it is.
3. From a fluff perspective, I expect chaos powers in general to be more damaging and unrestrained/unexpected (tzeentch in general - hell, his top greater daemon is paranoid about the boss backstabbing him), eldar ones more subtle and reliable

Polaria
04-06-2013, 11:29
why would i need armour saves i get +5 possible +4 as daemons with invunirbal saves :D

All Your Invulnerabilities Are Belong To Us.

Bubble Ghost
04-06-2013, 13:33
There seems to be some belief here that you are entitled to reliability, and have been unfairly or incompetently deprived of it. I just think that whole premise is flawed. I've noticed a lot of the complaints about codexes, especially this one, seem to amount to "I don't like 6th ed." Not that there's anything wrong with that opinion (although you might be happier playing Warmachine if you thought 6th ed's changes moved in the wrong direction), but that's not a problem with the codex - the "constructive criticism" suggested improvements thread over yonder is basically full of people saying "[x] general trope of 6th ed is a flaw, I want my specific army put back into 5th ed format."

So without wanting to get into an argument over which is better, 5th or 6th (it's 6th:p), let's briefly try to explain my opinion here (without expecting to convince anyone, because as I said, this is really an argument about 6th ed, not about Eldar):



Essentially, non-farseer psykers in the previous codex gave the unit a rule or a piece of wargear. I.e. a warlock with destructor had a heavy flamer - no more, no less. Embolden was used to make a squad stubborn, etc

That was exactly the problem. Psychic powers in 5th ed weren't psychic powers. They were guns.




essentially it's just a regular unit upgrade with psychic flavor.

This is my point. They may have been "psychic" but there was no "flavor" whatsoever. None. At all. Zero. 5th ed in general was a lot more sterile than 6th is, and psychic powers are very much a part of that trend. In 6th ed, there is actually a system, a set of conventions, that all psykers fall into, which is much more effective at evoking their general otherness, and the concept of the warp. And the fact that powers are generated randomly makes you consider them as psykers, as characters, not merely as faceless caddies for teh awesome buffzors - in 5th ed you would think "do I want another Destructor?" while in 6th you think "do I want another Warlock?" I personally consider that a substantial improvement, and it's clearly intentional, since adding presence and personality to the game's characters is something 6th ed does in several other ways too.

daveNYC
04-06-2013, 15:39
You shouldn't take the rather unique situation of the Warlock in 5th and try and use that as an example of psykers in general. And I don't think the complaint was specifically that Warlocks now had to cast. It's the whole package of casting, low leadership, random powers, and the chance that the power you roll might not match the squad you stuck him with.

Bubble Ghost
04-06-2013, 15:44
You shouldn't take the rather unique situation of the Warlock in 5th and try and use that as an example of psykers in general.

I wasn't. I was using the fact that all psykers had Ld 10, and that before and after that pointless token dice roll, there was nothing psychic about psychic powers.

And Conceal matches all Eldar squads. If the primaris was rubbish or situational, there would be some merit to these complaints, but it isn't.

El_Machinae
04-06-2013, 16:00
I guess it emphasizes how dangerous the Warp is. It's stopped being something that a race is considered to have 'mastered'. Before, the rules suggested a level of mastery that was totally impressive compared to what the mainstream Imperium had. Now, it's scary again.

drmarco
04-06-2013, 16:19
I guess it emphasizes how dangerous the Warp is. It's stopped being something that a race is considered to have 'mastered'. Before, the rules suggested a level of mastery that was totally impressive compared to what the mainstream Imperium had. Now, it's scary again.

That would be true, if the Imperium didn't have such mastery by way of grey-knights and librarians who can cast with more impunity, El...

Bubble Ghost
04-06-2013, 16:42
Grey Knights are in a book which describes a specfically psychic faction within a race, not a race as a whole, and appeared during 5th ed. Comparing that to the generic Eldar army, written for 6th ed, is meaningless.

And Librarians aren't as good as Farseers. They're a lower mastery level, they have no means of dealing with Perils of the Warp, and they have no means of increasing the reliability of their powers. Only Chaos sorcerers come close, and they're still not quite as good.

You need to stop comparing Warlocks to the one guy from the other army who's a psyker. Warlocks aren't "Eldar get crap psykers", they're "Eldar get lots of extra psykers."

Israfael
04-06-2013, 22:18
Bubble Ghost covered everything I'd of said- mission complete.

Death Company
04-06-2013, 22:36
You shouldn't take the rather unique situation of the Warlock in 5th and try and use that as an example of psykers in general. And I don't think the complaint was specifically that Warlocks now had to cast. It's the whole package of casting, low leadership, random powers, and the chance that the power you roll might not match the squad you stuck him with.

How is this issue unique to the Eldar? Welcome to 6th edition, Dave.

El_Machinae
04-06-2013, 23:24
That would be true, if the Imperium didn't have such mastery by way of grey-knights and librarians who can cast with more impunity, El...

I'm not going to count the Grey-Knights. They're such a small portion of the Imperium, if not the game*. Yeah, they rock. There're Eldar that rock the psychic powers, too. The complaint about Librarians might be a more appropriate. Every Chapter thus has a person (people?) on-staff that can handle the Warp pretty safely. Does that suggest that the Warp might be safer than we'd like to see it be? Maybe. I have no real idea (fluffwise) as to the number of Librarians in the galaxy compared to the number of Eldar who have a comparable level of control over the Warp.

*I mean if Codex:Super, Duper-Elite Eldar came out, I'd expect them to handle the Warp tidily too.

Poseidal
04-06-2013, 23:24
Because powers are random, you can't guarantee having them for your force so you can't design around the 'Farseer Tax'.

And it looks like we've actually seen this happen:

Eldar Vehicles now more reliable in shooting with BS4 (ironically, Guide is the only reliable power you can guarantee having, and you can get it twice over now too)
Jetbikes down 32% in points cost, but buffed with BS4 and pseudo-rending
Scorpions up a point each, but now come with all the special rules that they needed to pay for with an Exarch and more, so they are much more points effective.
Warp Spiders, already a good unit got a small price cut, much better movement, pseudo-rending and potency against light (and even medium) vehicles
Swooping Hawks 25% cheaper, with 50% more firepower, all the special rules they had to previously pay for and the excellent 'no scatter' rule, all included in cost
Wriath units no longer subject to Stupidity; Wraithguard points cut slightly
Eldar heavy weapons points cost slashed by a massive amount

I'm sure there's more too.

Seriously, getting Random powers and thus ending 'Farseer tax' might be the best thing that has happened to the force as a whole from 3rd to now. The only problem is Banshees (one of my favourite units) are pretty bad now (or still, I should say).

Vaktathi
04-06-2013, 23:35
I think lower Ld psykers is deliberate - just as lower Ld in general seems to be. Before, psykers were all Ld 10, which was transparently just to make psychic powers reliable - it kind of begged the question of why there was even a Leadership based mechanic for it in the first place.


yeah, Ld10 on every single psyker for several editions was silly, a 1/12 chance to fail was largely meaningless and the supposedly dangerous and fickle mucking about with the Warp was in fact one of the most stable and reliable things in the game.

wyvirn
05-06-2013, 00:50
It's not just psykers, all I think the trend is dialing it back for everyone so that Leadership actually plays a part in the game.

Shamana
05-06-2013, 01:05
It's not just psykers, all I think the trend is dialing it back for everyone so that Leadership actually plays a part in the game.

Let's see if that happens, though. For now I think it most likely that the LD on warlocks just got overlooked. It irks me because it clashes with my perception of the army, though I can live with it. Strangely enough imo the issue is worse on shadowseers, where the unit pretty much requires the power to work in order to function anywhere near how it should.

andrewm9
05-06-2013, 02:54
I think the real problem people are experiencing is that these 6th edition codices have to exist at the same time as the older 5th edition ones where psychic powers are more reliable for many races. That's an issue GW has period. As game design philosophy changes not all the codices change at the same time and this produces some haves and have nots.