PDA

View Full Version : High Elves: Recommended Magic Lores?



Forsworn
03-06-2013, 23:14
Okay, so I wanted to gouge the thoughts of people on the various Lores of Magic for High Elves.
My thoughts are these:
- Fire: We have enough damage dealing in our own lore, and that one gets a bonus to cast. Axed.

- Heavens: Has good utility and heavy damage spells. Useful against Monstrous Infantry, but not so much against hordes (except for its "6th Spell).

- Death: Great against characters. Doesn't really seem all that useful for High Elves, really. We don't get much synergy out of it.

- Beasts: NOW we're getting somewhere. the Signature is excellent for High Elves. The Spear and Curse are also very useful for taking big nasty things out of a fight. Its 6th spell is decidedly "meh", as is its magic missile. The Character buffs are great if you have lots of characters, but as High Elves, we generally cannot afford more than 2 fighters and 2 mages, TOPS (generally we'll have a BSB, Mage, and either Prince or Archmage). A great Lore for a level 2, but not really beyond that.

- Metal: This lore has some good things (Plague of Rust, Glittering Scales, Enchanted Blades), but the damage spells capabilities are very situational. It's amazing against heavily armored armies, but against weakly armored hordes, it is BAD. It seems like there is great utility, but you have to go "All in" and hope for the best. Overall, I am unsure about this lore.

- Light: This Lore seems pretty decent. Speed of Light is bad for us. We already strike first and get our re-rolls against most things. At best, we are forcing the enemy on 5's. Timewarp is awesome for the extreme movement, especially if we have Silver Helms and Dragon Princes for support. Light of Battle is a great way to make sure that your army stays where it needs to be. Banishment and Burning Gaze are not half bad as damage spells. Pha's protection is somewhat situational, but can be amazing, and Net of Amnyok can be great if you debuff a unit, or fight a low strength army.

- Life: This is one of our most competitive Lores. Its buff spells make our Elves MUCH harder to kill (which we desperately need). Dwellers is never bad, especially for what it can do to most horde armies. Throne allows us to go "all in" for a spell with little to no consequences, AND makes all but one spell in the lore better. Regrowth allows us to nullify bad turns on our enemy's part, and ammeliorate the effects of their good turns.

- Shadow: 2 debuffs that make our elves more survivable (Miasma, Enfeebling), a debuff that makes our elves deadlier (Withering), a buff that makes us the ultimate slayers (Mindrazor), and two damage spells that take all armies that AREN'T elves (or Slaanesh) and just ENDS them (Pit of Shades, Penumbral Pendulum). This lore really only has ONE spell that is not useful (Steed of Shadows is only useful if it gets rolled with Pendulum on a level two, since you can take a magic phase to shoot them parallel to your enemy and then IF Pendulum (or try, at least). You can always trade that one for Miasma. This Lore is great at any level, and gives us amazing utility (letting us be deadlier and weakening our enemies, as well as allowing us, with some careful positioning, to protect our mages).

- High Magic: I think I haven't played enough with it to know. Honestly, it seems middle of the road. We have 4 damage spells out of 8. These are useless once our mage reaches combat (so unless we have him sit in an archer block, we're out of luck). The other spells give us: a healing spell (not bad), an Anti-Miasma (which will likely not be as useful), Steed of Shadows (no, REALLY), and Drain Magic (okay, THIS spell is awesome).

My judgement:
Best Lord Lores (starting with the best): Shadow, Life, Light
Best Hero Lores (starting with best): Beasts, High
Worst Lores: Fire, Death, Heavens

On the subject of Metal: I am not sure where this fits. There is some great utility in there (Anything hitting on 2's w/ AP thanks to Enchanted Blades; 3+ Sword Masters/Phoenix Guard/White Lions, 1+ vs shooting White Lions thanks to Glittering Robe; eliminating Armor Saves from enemy units w/ Plague of Rust; Reducing enemy combat stats), but it also has some of the worst damage spells in the game against most units. Sure, Searing Doom is amazing against Knights or Chaos Warriors or Ironbreakers, but it's horrible against most Core). Overall, I am not sure where Metal should go.

Kahadras
04-06-2013, 10:54
I used to really rate Lore of Beasts for High Elves and now it's even better with Silver Helms moving to core. Wildform is, IMHO, the best signature spell out there for an army that's pretty much strength 3 toughness 3 across the board. The lore also gives us two spells that can boost our combat characters and are relativly cheap to get off (especialy if the character is mounted). Savage Beast is an especialy nasty prospect if the character is already kitted out with a weapon that grants him more attacks (Savage Beast will grant a Prince with the Blade of Leaping Gold 10 attacks at strength 7). Pann's Pelt is easier to get off and is a nice counter for the fact that our characters are only toughness 3. It can push the character from being wounded on 3's to being wounded on 5's or even 6's which can be massive.

The lore also comes with a nice damage spell in the form of Amber Spear. It's a great threat to monsters (especialy the boosted version) which is something I've found the High Elves to struggle with. The Bolt Thrower is nice but it's on 4's to hit at long range then on 3's/4's to wound and after all that only does D3 wounds. An auto hitting, 2's to wound , D6 wounds Amber Spear is just so much more dangerous.

Lastly the Cure of Ahraheir is a brilliant spell to lock down enemy units. -1 to hit at range/in combat is nice but the dangerous terrain checks to move are great (especialy failing on a 1 or 2). It's really helped in games where I've been outnumbered and I've plonked the spell down on a big unit. My opponants faced with the choice of moving and potentialy losing about a third of his unit or having to sit still for a turn. It's even better against units that can potentialy be forced to move (animosity tests for O&G, frenzied units etc).

I'm not really keen on the other two spells in the Lore. Flock of Doom lacks the strength to do any real damage but I'd concider throwing a last remaining dice in my magic pool int casting it on a small, low toughness, skirmishing unit. Transformation is a cool idea but I'd rather have an Archmage casting spells than a Monster. The other units in my army are there to fight, he's in the list to buff units/characters and to put some ranged damage onto the enemy army. I prefer a Beasts Archmage over a Beast Mage because it gives him the flexibility to both buff and deal damage.

Kahadras

Sedge
04-06-2013, 12:23
I was under the assumption than Cure of Ahraheir made all terrain dangerous and that they failed tests on a 1-2; dangerous terrain tests are only taken when unit marches, charges, flees or chases. They would be able to move normal movement allowance without taking test.

boli
04-06-2013, 12:31
Life, Shadow, High

If you take any of those three you will end up with a nice mixture of spells which suit High Elves perfectly. The Signature from Beasts can be taken by a Loremaster which lets be fair is the best spell in there.

Kahadras
04-06-2013, 14:37
I was under the assumption than Cure of Ahraheir made all terrain dangerous and that they failed tests on a 1-2; dangerous terrain tests are only taken when unit marches, charges, flees or chases. They would be able to move normal movement allowance without taking test.

Fair point. You can use a normal move (it's probably that most people I play just don't bothering moving very much unless it's to charge so the situation has never really come up for myself :p). So it's more of a slow down units but it does hurt people wanting to do the important things like charging.

cptcosmic
06-06-2013, 13:09
the point of the curse is to place chaff in front of the unit, now it can slowboat around or charge it and lose 2/6 of the unit. or you cast it before a combat, if the enemy charges 2/6 of the unit is gone and the unit receives -1 to hit as well.

metal on a lvl1 scrollcaddy is definately good.

underrated but great lores: heavens, high and beast
heavens: comet deals good damage + dictates where the enemy will not move, augments + hexes are great for our shooting, cavarly and phoenix and the magic missiles are decent.
high: good all purpose lore. can heal wounded characters, destroy magic items, place units into position and also deal some damage. it synergises well with the book of hoeth due to low casting values & the lore attribute is great if you manage to keep your mage in the second rank.
beasts: very underrated lore. amber spear is basically a magical cannon which HE lack, curse is a great all purpose spell in and out of combat and the combat buffs make our fighty characters very deadly. it has only 2 bad spells namely transformation and flock but even those can be used in certain circumstances.

TheDanish
06-06-2013, 14:15
I'll probably stick with Shadow, but I might take High for a swing. Too much direct damage for my liking, though.

Shadow just has so many good spells that sync with Elf needs. Mindrazor on a group of spears is particularly nasty.

cptcosmic
06-06-2013, 17:01
I'll probably stick with Shadow, but I might take High for a swing. Too much direct damage for my liking, though.

Shadow just has so many good spells that sync with Elf needs. Mindrazor on a group of spears is particularly nasty.
not everyone uses spears or phoenix guard though.

Captain Collius
06-06-2013, 17:21
Shadow is very useful. Miasma allows you to control what units you will face by controlling movement and their ability to hit you. Enfeebling Foe nerfs their ability to hurt you. got off a -3 on ogres it was funny seeing ogres needing 6's to wound. Withering can be a great boon if facing a high T army it your archers are wounding orcs on 2 watch how many die. Pit of shades gives you the always useful I test. Okkams can help cav units break out again or make spearmen crazy good.

Steed is rather blah. Pendulum is situationally useful but i would avoid it.

for lower level mages Heavens, Metal, High or Fire

TheDanish
06-06-2013, 23:11
not everyone uses spears or phoenix guard though.

Absolutely. It seems like it'll come down to personal playstyle and local metas. Drain Magic would be particularly good if your regular opponents like hexes and whatnot. I love my Spearmen (and I have 60 of them, so I'm sure gonna use em!) so I'll stick with Shadow.

Kahadras
07-06-2013, 07:22
Absolutely. It seems like it'll come down to personal playstyle and local metas.

I'd agree with this. My current HE build is rocking a Prince on Dragon, Noble on Griffon, Silver Helms, Ellyrion Reavers and Frostheart Phoenix so the list is almost tailor made for Lore of Beasts. Really it depends on what you want to play and what people in your local gaming group are running.

Kahadras

Shadeseraph
07-06-2013, 07:24
I do think that with the losses to rerolls to hit, Heavens is looking more and more interesting. In a balanced or defensive army Harmonic Convergence helps so much is not even funny, and the signature is awesome if you rely on force concentration (which HE do). -1 to hit is great, and the -1 to LD is just icing the cake. Comet is great, as it helps dealing with defensive armies and makes battlefield control even easier, and the MM are high S, which is always good in a meta dominated by 1+AS.

Rake
07-06-2013, 11:46
I've been saying it from the beginning and will stick to my guns: Shadows on your Lvl 4, High on your lvl 2 is the default all rounders set up. High magic is FANTASTIC but as a support lore. Roll twice on the table of goodies and then pick Drain plus one more spell. Voila, instant game changing support on the guy who will have your scroll anyhow.Shadows doesn't need an introduction. You need offense? Shadow. You need defense? Shadow. You need killy? Shadow. You need mobility? Shadow. All in one package with good HtH protection for your mage assuming you have other characters floating around. After this Life is the obvious second, followed IMHO by death and Bests. Then the rest.

Importman
07-06-2013, 11:54
Shadow for the Lv4. High for the support mage.
Shadow is indispensable for HE. And the +1 Ward and little damaging spells are quite fun (and annoying to your opponents) to get off.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

TheDanish
08-06-2013, 00:02
Shadow seems to benefit block infantry armies, in particular Spearmen/LSG/PG. Debuff the enemy and Mindrazor your low strength units, and you're halfway to victory.

I'm using Life with my Archmage in a Helmbus for better defense and wound recovery. High seems like a good utility lore - as some have said, throw your lvl 1/2 scroll caddy in a unit and go for a High Magic spell each turn for that ward save. 3+ save PG in particular are rock-hard.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 08:30
I dont get all the shadow love. shadow isnt that great any more without silver staff and banner of sorcery.

you do not always get all the spells you need on your lvl 4 shadow archmage now that silver staff is gone and you have no real way to draw dispel dice cause there is only 1 spell that you absolutely have to dispel before combat starts. you rely on alot of luck to get the spells through a scroll + dispel dice once in close combat (where it matters the most) without the old banner of sorcery.

Shadeseraph
17-06-2013, 13:30
I dont get all the shadow love. shadow isnt that great any more without silver staff and banner of sorcery.

you do not always get all the spells you need on your lvl 4 shadow archmage now that silver staff is gone and you have no real way to draw dispel dice cause there is only 1 spell that you absolutely have to dispel before combat starts. you rely on alot of luck to get the spells through a scroll + dispel dice once in close combat (where it matters the most) without the old banner of sorcery.

I've been playing a couple games with a lvl 4 with shadow, and I've got to say I disagree. the BoH is actually quite good at drawing dispel dice, maybe even better than the banner on average and good phases (worse at low phases, though), and the biggest strength of the lore of shadows is that it has a lot of redundant, highly efficient spells. I avoid mindrazor, as it is IF bait, and all the remaining spells are amazing.

-Miasma is far more useful than most people give it credit for. Battlefield control, allowing rerolls, forcing the enemy to hit on 5's, and sometimes even cancelling enemy BS shooting. I've seen this spell stopped at the cost of withering or enfeebling being let go.
-Withering is amazing. Suddenly, all those bows are a lot more dangerous than they first seemed, wounding on 4+ or even 3+ against usually tought targets. In close combat it's still one of the better spells. Being a RiP spell also helps in that the enemy magic phase is crippled, as he has to dispell it.
-Enfeebling Foe can give a very serious edge to a lot of our feeble units. A WL unit suddenly feels a lot less fragile when the monster they are clawing at is suddenly S3. And armored units like SHs or DPs benefit hugely from this spell. I've hold down ogres just with some SH and a succesful Enfeebling foe.
-Pit is... well, pit. Even the basic version is awesome if the enemy is castling (dwarves), and the chance to kill even a single nurgle beast makes the spell worth it.

So, overall, shadow is a very solid lore for HE. Yes, Mindrazor is all the rage, but all the other spells synergize so well with our army is not even funny.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 14:39
the BoH is actually quite good at drawing dispel dice
it is not about drawing dice but about drawing the scroll to be able to get the spells off in close combat where it actually decides if you win or loose the game.

shadow has not many spells that pressure me before close combat and it has nothing to deal with ethereal units. it additionally has high casting values which hurt without being able to generate more dice. I will gladly use all my dispel dice agaisnt one of the significant spells and take the hit from one of the other shadow spells that do nothing before combat except being a slight annoyance. withering does not reduce armor or to hit penalties from chaff screening which in the current meta does not work out well. when combat starts I will still have my full magic defense with scroll allowing me to reliable shutdown the magic phase.

HE got more reliable magic phase with the BoH but the lack of dice generation means you will do nothing on low winds of magic rolls and you will do nothing in those important moments if the opponent manages to save his scroll. I have tried shadow several times in my local competetive scene and it just does not work out well in the end cause you just cant rely on getting the buffs at the right moment and trying to get IF on skillrazor is too much of a gamble.



but all the other spells synergize so well with our army is not even funny.

depends which units you take. I have no archers, no spears, no LSG and no PG in my army, shadow is basically for me.

Tarian
17-06-2013, 14:51
depends which units you take. I have no archers, no spears, no LSG and no PG in my army.

So you don't take some of the units that benefit from Shadow the most... and say that Shadow isn't a good lore? Miasma can help keep a unit out of combat and Pit is a powerful ranged threat (against the right armies, of course.) Synergized with Miasma, even Elves have to fear it.

The trick to Shadow is the fact that there are so many combat spells in it. Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling and Mindrazor all shift combats, from hitting on 3s, to crippling their offense/defense. Assuming a decent magic phase, since a bad one will cripple any lore if they have a scroll, they have to deal with 2-3 possibly fight-changing spells that they can't let go off without serious damage to their battle line.

With Withering, that swarm of S3 attacks suddenly hurt a lot more, since with rerolls, Spears usually don't have a problem hitting, its wounding that gets them. And those T3 5+ Elves are a lot tougher to kill when the opponent is S2-3 or something like that. Even for armored units, it prevents them from cracking the armor effectively, denying return wounds. And as much as people make fun of it or criticize it, the Mindrazor is a game-changers, especially with high I/WS/ASF elves.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 14:57
So you don't take some of the units that benefit from Shadow the most... and say that Shadow isn't a good lore? Miasma can help keep a unit out of combat and Pit is a powerful ranged threat (against the right armies, of course.) Synergized with Miasma, even Elves have to fear it.
you just repeated by yourself what I wrote, you cast one of those spells, I dispell them with my dice => no pressure, no scroll is drawn. the rest of the spells is just a slight annoyance and once in combat you wont have the dice to force a spell through dispel dice + scroll which in return will loose you combats. not having spears, PG and archers changes almost nothing, atleast the WL do not hit like wet noodles when you cannot get off a combat buff. you are free to go to a tournament with a shadow mage, get to the top of the leaderboard and show me that I am wrong :D

Tarian
17-06-2013, 15:04
you just repeated by yourself what I wrote, you cast one of those spells, I dispell them with my dice => no pressure, no scroll is drawn. the rest of the spells is just a slight annoyance and once in combat you wont have the dice to force a spell through dispel dice + scroll which in return will loose you combats. not having spears, PG and archers changes almost nothing, atleast the WL do not hit like wet noodles when you cannot get off a combat buff. you are free to go to a tournament with a shadow mage, get to the top of the leaderboard and show me that I am wrong :D

Um... no I didn't. You said the lore was worthless, I disagreed. If your opponent can automatically dispel everything, then yes, the rest of the lore doesn't really work, since you can't cast anything anyways. Archers/LSG make Withering a threat outside of combat, since they can shoot, making the lowered T hurt even big gribbly monsters. And you are free to do whatever you wish, though I have not found many outside of you who claim that the Lore of Shadows is a weak lore.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 15:07
Archers/LSG make Withering a threat outside of combat, since they can shoot, making the lowered T hurt even big gribbly monsters.
because withering removes high armor and chaff screening for to hit penalties that every competent player uses in the current meta, right? =D

Tarian
17-06-2013, 15:11
because withering removes high armor and chaff screening for to hit penalties that every competent player uses in the current meta, right? =D

Withering helps to make sure that chaff goes away if you need to. And a lot of the big monsters that are scary don't particularly have a great save. See: Hellpit Abomination. Or if you actually took archers/RBTs/LSG, then one of them can try to wipe the screen before the rest fires at the unit, as every competent player knows, that if you need clean shots, clear the chaff. And since apparently a smiley face makes anything ok to say, :D