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Fade6
05-06-2013, 11:42
I have read on varies threads that people think that the Tau and Eldar codex’s are better than the other three releases in 6th so for. People seem to think there is some sort of power creep going on. I have read all the 6th edition codex's and I don’t see were people are coming from. I think that these are the most balanced set of books that GW has released in secretion in a very long time. Even the daemon book with all its crazy randomness, people still like it. What do you think and if you think there is power creep please say why because I must have missed something.

TheGreatDalmuti
06-06-2013, 15:58
People haven't been saying they are better, as much as Gray Knights where better than the other books in 5th. They are less better, but still a bit better.

Soupcat
06-06-2013, 16:03
They are shooting oriented codexs in what is clearly a shooting oriented edition. Thats why they are viewed as better.

loveless
06-06-2013, 16:09
I haven't had a good look at the Eldar book yet, but the Tau book has nothing that makes me view it as any more powerful than the Dark Angels. There are fewer editing errors and the inter-unit synergy is more obvious (markerlights, supporting fire, invocations, etc.) than for the DA (stasis, rad, banners, etc.). Tau can get a lot of strong shooting out there and have several answers to enemy aircraft and heavy infantry. Despite people decrying it, on paper it doesn't look like the Tau are especially susceptible to high-armor vehicles with Railheads and Fusion weapons all over, plus several units in the force are ridiculously mobile.

Dark Angels have plenty of fun tricks as well, but a lot of their goodies are melee-oriented, meaning you need to find your way in there without getting shot to ribbons and you have only "average" shooting to cover you on the way in.

Rentacle Tape
06-06-2013, 16:40
I haven't had a good look at the Eldar book yet, but the Tau book has nothing that makes me view it as any more powerful than the Dark Angels. There are fewer editing errors and the inter-unit synergy is more obvious (markerlights, supporting fire, invocations, etc.) than for the DA (stasis, rad, banners, etc.). Tau can get a lot of strong shooting out there and have several answers to enemy aircraft and heavy infantry. Despite people decrying it, on paper it doesn't look like the Tau are especially susceptible to high-armor vehicles with Railheads and Fusion weapons all over, plus several units in the force are ridiculously mobile.

Dark Angels have plenty of fun tricks as well, but a lot of their goodies are melee-oriented, meaning you need to find your way in there without getting shot to ribbons and you have only "average" shooting to cover you on the way in.

That's exactly why it seems that the Tau are stronger, because this edition heavily favors castling-up and shooting. Something the Tau do incredibly well.

Lester
06-06-2013, 16:48
That's exactly why it seems that the Tau are stronger, because this edition heavily favors castling-up and shooting. Something the Tau do incredibly well.

Then perhaps it's the Edition's fault, not the army? By design, Tau where always a heavily focused shooting army with a glass jaw and Eldar was always a mobile strike/shoot and retreat army with, again, a glass jaw. don't see anything wrong with it.

NemoSD
06-06-2013, 17:16
As I pointed out on another thread, the Dark Angel codex is one of the better codexes right now. The problem is people on average are not playing into the synergy present, and not running mixed wing lists. The Dark Angels can bring a huge amount of shooty pain from all angles at once, and it can do so without large vehicles, or vehicles at all. This is an important note, because a s10 single rail shot is wasted on a squad of tactical marines. Yeah, it will kill a marine, one marine, so they switch to the burst if they still have it (Not sure) and you get your armor save. The broadsides don't have that option, so unless they went missiles, they are going to be ineffective in shooting our tacticals. DWA allows us to drop Termies in their back field on turn 1, which if we configured as shooty termies, can do a massive amount of damage, especially if supported with a drop podded dread. This will give the broadsides a target they are effective against yes, but it puts the broadsides uncomfortably close to an assault they don't want.

This means Tau need to play the shooting game with us with their infantry, at your bikes, and your tacticals. The bikes roll up with flamers, have the speed to minimize the range effect, and the high jink save, especially if going all out with a Darkshroud in support. Flame away, forcing the Tau to use an armor save instead of some of the messed up cover saves some of their units can acquire. Next turn, assault with the bikes. You still have tactical squads to roll up and clean up the mess while devs use ranged fire to make a mess of the field. The Dark Angels are a castle buster if they are played aggressively and without fear. (Which goes right along with their fluff, imagine that.) The armies I have trouble with when playing DA is other very aggressive lists.


Now onto the Eldar, as an Eldar player myself, I love the universal rending against toughness models we can throw around now. The other day a guy's jaw dropped when a humble Guardian squad murdered his termies in a single round of shooting, then ran away from the sole survivor. He also hated how I got slay the warlord on turn 2, and how his psyker was dead by turn three, and his sergeants were just dropping left and right. How I love Illic, and his Pathfinders.

The bearded one
06-06-2013, 17:23
They are shooting oriented codexs in what is clearly a shooting oriented edition. Thats why they are viewed as better.

I wouldn't really call Eldar 'shooting oriented' with their 12" derp guns. Tau will shoot the bejeezus out of you at every point of the game almost irregardless of where on the table you are; Eldar have to stand in your face for it for the most part, with a couple of dedicated exceptions.

Fade6
06-06-2013, 17:44
Do people really think that CC has been nerfed in this edition to the point of being unusable? I for one am glad to see the day of 3rd and 4th edition pure CC army cheese gone. In those editions CC was out of control and felt very unrealistic.

I have played plenty of games in 6th were CC has turned the tide or outright won the game but it was due to tactics being used not just a point and shoot sweeping advance combat jumping over and over with one unit or the completely unrealistic playing out of events such as the enemy gets out of his transport 20 meters in front of me and I don’t try to shoot him until he hits me in the head with a rock like in past editions with rhino rush.

wyvirn
06-06-2013, 18:24
Do people really think that CC has been nerfed in this edition to the point of being unusable?

Yes. Between random charges, overwatch, removing casualties from the front, and nerfing of cover saves and vehicle survivability, close combat units are nowhere as survivable as they used to be. 500 points of shooting focused models will be much more reliable than 500 points of close combat models. That isn't to say that close combat can't turn the tables of a game, but a close combat exclusive units face a major handicap.

Scribe of Khorne
06-06-2013, 18:39
Do people really think that CC has been nerfed in this edition to the point of being unusable? I for one am glad to see the day of 3rd and 4th edition pure CC army cheese gone. In those editions CC was out of control and felt very unrealistic.

I have played plenty of games in 6th were CC has turned the tide or outright won the game but it was due to tactics being used not just a point and shoot sweeping advance combat jumping over and over with one unit or the completely unrealistic playing out of events such as the enemy gets out of his transport 20 meters in front of me and I don’t try to shoot him until he hits me in the head with a rock like in past editions with rhino rush.

Yes, CC is so far behind Shooting that unless you enjoy running blobs, its difficult to make it worth it and the path of least resistance is going Shooting heavy, just like 5th, but even more pronounced.

Konovalev
06-06-2013, 18:52
My Flesh hounds tell me that cc isn't as useless as some people think it is. I'm inclined to agree with them.

Also how many of these type of threads do we need?

Bonus question: Why does the OP always post in bold?

Scribe of Khorne
06-06-2013, 18:58
An exception to prove the rule? ;)

There are issues with delivery, maybe the SM book will address this, but there certainly seems to be a consensus that it is easier to run Shooting lists, than it is CC lists.

Ssilmath
06-06-2013, 19:06
Pure melee lists, perhaps. Having strong melee elements mixed in still works, particularly cavalry and jump infantry. It also depends on the terrain used, as trying to run melee units up the table with nothing but trees for cover is recipe for disaster. Having a decent amount of line of sight blocking terrain works wonders for getting melee units up and into the fight relatively intact.

Starchild
06-06-2013, 19:12
My Flesh hounds tell me that cc isn't as useless as some people think it is. I'm inclined to agree with them.
Your Flesh Hounds talk to you? :p


Bonus question: Why does the OP always post in bold?

Fade6 posts everything in bold.


Pure melee lists, perhaps. Having strong melee elements mixed in still works, particularly cavalry and jump infantry. It also depends on the terrain used, as trying to run melee units up the table with nothing but trees for cover is recipe for disaster. Having a decent amount of line of sight blocking terrain works wonders for getting melee units up and into the fight relatively intact.

Not only that, but fast assault units can easily shut down shooting for their targets, and assaults block line of sight iirc. By strategically assaulting dangerous firepower units you can buy more time for the rest of your army to manuever without being shot to bits.

Yes more thought is required for where assaults need to happen but they can still make a huge difference.

It's not always all about how much damage a unit causes. It's easy to forget the overall effect on the battle.

Anyway, back on topic... Eldar and Tau are certainly good but they are far from unbeatable. When the new books have been in use long enough we should be able to figure out all the counters to them.

Stacius
06-06-2013, 19:16
Ok, played as new eldar last night and rolled up two of my opponents tournament lists. I had thrown together a list too. Daemons, yeah my all pleasure list, Slaanesh, is ok due to speed, but my mixed and Khorne lists kinda fall over. Used to love crushers, now a point sink I think. My dark angels are fairly balanced against most forces, and my chaos space marines are ok, better with drake support.

Ozendorph
06-06-2013, 19:22
I think the DA dex is fine, but the Tau's multiple answers to flyers and overwatch abilities (supporting fire, and a vehicle upgrade iirc?) really stand out. I haven't seen the new eldar (Newdar ;)) on the table yet

Forsworn
06-06-2013, 19:44
Tau: in an edition that favors shooting somewhat, they are kings of shooting. The amount of shots they can put downrange (especially high S/low AP shots) is staggering, honestly. The allies rule (God, I hope that gets removed later) strengthens them even MORE, because they gain access to units from OTHER armies that are great at covering their weaknesses (Weak CC and low survivability). The fact that the Ion Cannon can go S8 AP2 every turn makes it even worse. Having that on a Large Blast Template every turn for no downside is ridiculous. It is Instant Death on most things, and strips away all armor (nothing short of Assault Terminators with their Storm Shields has a chance of surviving it). Giving it Interceptor is just icing, since now they can answer deep-strikers that are there to take them out before they do anything more than come on the board.

Eldar: They are new. They seem good, but definitely not overpowered or anything. Eldar have always been very focused, so their units are somewhat OP at their respective tasks. Eldar, unlike Tau, pretty much HAVE to be "in your face" to do anything. The thing is that most of the Eldar players have played them for a LONG time now, and they know how to play Eldar. They bring down a MASSIVE hammer on units and annihilate them in turn. It is up to the opponent to fight them as an army, since an Eldar player will generally go for a "1/2 my army against these 2 or 3 units" and slaughter them. The boost to Shuriken weapons means that they got the boost where it was most needed (Guardians/Avengers). Combine this with Battle Focus and the mobility of the Eldar is unparalleled. This is coming from a game that went from "Various Colored Boxes Hammer" to "Static Infantry Hammer". Now we have a race that is the exact opposite of static and people need to know how to adapt.


On the topic of shooting's ascendancy:
Yes, shooting is stronger and vehicles are weaker. Vehicles HAD to be weaker, or we'd have continued with "Box Hammer 40,000". They didn't want to go back to "Face Punch Hammer 40,000" and went a LITTLE to far in the other direction. Assault is not something viable on its own, but shouldn't be anyway. Combined arms is where assault shines, and if you use assault as part of your force (as opposed to the entirety of your force) you should do fine. :)

Ssilmath
06-06-2013, 19:53
Forsworn: The Ion Accelerator does have a downside for that S8 Ap2 large blast, notably Get's Hot (Which can prevent firing, even it not being likely to harm the Riptide) and a poor BS, making scattering off target a frequent problem. This is made worse when intercepting, as it can't shoot next turn and can (is likely to) scatter off the deep strikers. If they land near things like Broadsides or crisis suits, you are almost as likely to nuke your own squads as you are the deep strikers.

MajorWesJanson
06-06-2013, 19:57
It probably also helps that both Tau and Eldar were likely written recently enough that they could incorporate some of the feedback to the meta shift 6th edition brought. You can see the same thing with the fliers. The Helldrake is a 5th edition flier design, and overpowered. The Nephillim was written once the initial flier feedback came along and was nerfed pretty hard. Tau flier is far mode balanced, and now so is the eldar one. It seems fliers are now in the camp of- cheap, heavily armed, survivable, pick two.

razormasticator
06-06-2013, 20:08
I think its a mixed bag. Eldar has some good units. So does Tau. but Tau is mainly a shooting army in a shooting heavy edition. But I have seen Dirge Castered/Land Raider Transported khorne Zerkers still do what they do best. Or my brothers 40 Plus Huron/Zerker infiltrate chew face against a Tau army. It all depends on way to many variables. Sure on paper Tau and maybe even the Eldar book look better than Chaos or Dark Angels. But neither book (Tau or Eldar) is an instant win and both will require skill and some luck.
Assault heavy armies just need good shooting support now, anti flyer units and a good heavy dose of skill and luck to play correctly.

Jind_Singh
06-06-2013, 21:38
It's not so much power creep as simply better written books for the last two.

Chaos fails because a lot of units don't make sense for their points - BUT still have enough usable options that they can pound anyone down.

Daemons are again good but some units lack looc for their points - like Bloodcrushers - why would you take them?

Dark Angels have a lot good - but it's the strange priced units that let the book down.

By comparison the newer books have a lot less optimal units so overall are much better balanced and better books.

A good book is one you slam a list together and hope for the best - rather than panning for the nuggets of gold from a pile of waste!

razormasticator
06-06-2013, 21:43
It's not so much power creep as simply better written books for the last two.

Chaos fails because a lot of units don't make sense for their points - BUT still have enough usable options that they can pound anyone down.

Daemons are again good but some units lack looc for their points - like Bloodcrushers - why would you take them?

Dark Angels have a lot good - but it's the strange priced units that let the book down.

By comparison the newer books have a lot less optimal units so overall are much better balanced and better books.

A good book is one you slam a list together and hope for the best - rather than panning for the nuggets of gold from a pile of waste!

Eldar have some buffs, and some good stuff. There is no doubt. But there are also some face palms in the book.
And there is no instant win at all.

TheRaven
06-06-2013, 21:56
I don’t think Eldar are as strong as the Tau book at this point. Tau are good because they seem to have all the answers right now. They are a shooting army in a shooting edition. They don’t have many strong transports in the edition where transports became incredibly de-emphasized. They can remove cover at a time when, everyone is trying to game around having their cover saves. And they have access to strong interceptor weapons when everyone is scared of flyers.

I wouldn’t listen to what everyone is saying about the Eldar at this point, especially on the internet forums. No one has a clue how they’re going to turn out. Half the people are crying cheese, half are saying the book is terrible. People can’t even agree on which units are good.

But I will say this about the Tau book, it had the least amount of entries than any other book. It seems like their units were just better because every entry needed to count. The Tau book had what… 15 or 16 non HQ options? That’s by far the smallest of any book. Comparably the Eldar book had I think 25+ non HQ entries? So if you took the 10 worst entries in the Eldar book, chopped them out, and compared this theoretical “new Eldar book” with only 15 entries to the Tau books entries, how would they feel? Sometimes it’s a matter of perspective. I don’t know, just food for thought.

aim
06-06-2013, 21:56
That's exactly why it seems that the Tau are stronger, because this edition heavily favors castling-up and shooting. Something the Tau do incredibly well.

Makes a change from shooting being naff and your expensive fragile units getting kicked in the face and laughed at by cheap beatstick units - i.e. the last 4 editions.

Ozendorph
06-06-2013, 22:17
Makes a change from shooting being naff and your expensive fragile units getting kicked in the face and laughed at by cheap beatstick units - i.e. the last 4 editions.

Yeah, all that naff IG and GK shooting, getting schooled by 'zerkers and 'stealers. Long Fangs and Grey Hunters getting overrun by slugga mobs. Finally the poor little guys have a chance (translation: shooting was already king in 5th Ed, now it's not even close)

Ssilmath
06-06-2013, 22:44
Yeah, all that naff IG and GK shooting, getting schooled by 'zerkers and 'stealers. Long Fangs and Grey Hunters getting overrun by slugga mobs. Finally the poor little guys have a chance (translation: shooting was already king in 5th Ed, now it's not even close)

That is because those armies had strong melee capabilities, powerful tanks and tough transports on top of strong shooting. It was more than just strong shooting that made them the dominant armies.

Iron_Lord
06-06-2013, 22:57
It seems fliers are now in the camp of- cheap, heavily armed, survivable, pick two.

Aren't most Forgeworld fliers fairly good about that? The Stormeagles are armed and survivable, but very expensive, for example.

Venkh
06-06-2013, 23:00
Why are some codicies more powerful than others? Because balance is not top of GW's agenda?

The DE were released, no codex creep

Grey knights and necrons, creep

Chaos, demons and DA, no codex creep

Tau Creep

Eldar probably not as powerful as tau so no creep.

If codex creep was real then Imperial Guard, Blood Angels and Orks would be total no hopers by now. Not seeing it myself.

In fact I'm willing to bet that I could take a 3rd ed craftworld eldar list would make little timmy cry.

Creep is a myth. So...

If you cant hack it
Get yer jacket.

Ozendorph
06-06-2013, 23:11
That is because those armies had strong melee capabilities, powerful tanks and tough transports on top of strong shooting. It was more than just strong shooting that made them the dominant armies.

I'm just saying "shooty" armies did very well in 5th. The post I was responding to referred to shooting as being "naff" in the last edition, and unable to compete with less expensive melee units. I disagree.

Rentacle Tape
06-06-2013, 23:54
Then perhaps it's the Edition's fault, not the army? By design, Tau where always a heavily focused shooting army with a glass jaw and Eldar was always a mobile strike/shoot and retreat army with, again, a glass jaw. don't see anything wrong with it.

It absolutely is. I don't believe that the Tau codex is on another tier above Chaos or the Angels; just that the edition favoring shooting makes it appear so.

Starchild
07-06-2013, 02:50
It absolutely is. I don't believe that the Tau codex is on another tier above Chaos or the Angels; just that the edition favoring shooting makes it appear so.

We also haven't had enough time to fully adapt our army lists and tactics to deal with the Tau menace. When we do, we will see the Tau in a different light.

Rentacle Tape
07-06-2013, 03:22
We also haven't had enough time to fully adapt our army lists and tactics to deal with the Tau menace. When we do, we will see the Tau in a different light.

The Tau still fold like origami come the assault phase, so it's business as usual for me. New edition or no.

I think Eldar might find themselves struggling to beat Tau, honestly, given the punishing shooting and blatantly superior range.

Forsworn
07-06-2013, 03:38
Forsworn: The Ion Accelerator does have a downside for that S8 Ap2 large blast, notably Get's Hot (Which can prevent firing, even it not being likely to harm the Riptide) and a poor BS, making scattering off target a frequent problem. This is made worse when intercepting, as it can't shoot next turn and can (is likely to) scatter off the deep strikers. If they land near things like Broadsides or crisis suits, you are almost as likely to nuke your own squads as you are the deep strikers.

Markerlights say "hi". BS5 is NOT low on standard shooting (and Interceptor BS3 for interceptor is average. So yeah, it's worth it if someone, say, drops Terminators where you can intercept). Gets Hot is less a downside and more "Plasma Weapons are like that". The fact that Tau can take their plasma and say "You know what, I'm going to make it killy enough to turn your strongest unit into ionized gas" every turn for the exact same price (Gets Hot) as every other army is kind of ridiculous. A downside would be something like "You can pull the S8 AP2 Large Blast, but lose a shot next turn while it recharges" or something like that. As is, there is LITERALLY no reason not to overcharge every turn except being a worry wort (1/6 chance are odds most would bet against).

Also, again, when NOT intercepting, it's S8 AP2 at +2BS without cover. Yeah, that's going all in. Then again, wouldn't YOU be willing to dedicate that sort of shooting to, say, blast a unit of Noise Marines w/ 2 Blastmasters out of a building? Or turn a unit of recently disembarked Purifies into mush? Or take their Warlord and SMASH him? Remember, since all shooting is done simultaneously, you can use wounds from OTHER weapons to take models off before resolving the wounds from the Plasma Gun of doom)

Clang
07-06-2013, 03:45
Whenever a codex gets a major rewrite, GW always introduce some Cool New Stuff (a cynic might think they're trying to sell more models :) ), which rejigs that army's balance and also the tactics needed to play against that army. Working out that new balance (for players and opponents) takes months, and during that time everyone is endlessly squealing about 'broken' and 'nerfed' units (rightly or wrongly). But after a few months, everyone becomes used to the new codex and has changed their armies/tactics accordingly, and life returns to normal. Just in time for another new codex and the cycle starts anew...

Surgency
07-06-2013, 04:11
Yes, CC is so far behind Shooting that unless you enjoy running blobs, its difficult to make it worth it and the path of least resistance is going Shooting heavy, just like 5th, but even more pronounced.

2 games against Dark Angels, same build (with my Tau).

Game 1 I wiped him off the table with shooting.

Game 2 he wiped me off the table with assault


It also depends on the terrain used, as trying to run melee units up the table with nothing but trees for cover is recipe for disaster. Having a decent amount of line of sight blocking terrain works wonders for getting melee units up and into the fight relatively intact.

This is so true, and so incredibly important, and yet everyone overlooks it, and completely ignores it. I recently watched someone set up a table for a game against one of his "tournament buddies." The entire time he was talking to another one of his "tournament buddies" about how GW completely nerfed assault into uselessness, and buffed shooting so much that there was no point in taking assault units. When he was done setting the board, I laughed a little, as there was a building in 2 opposite corners, small hills in the other 2 opposite corners, and a very low wall that ran from one long table edge to the other long table edge. down the middle of the table. He then proceeded to set up his Aegis line between a building and a hill, while his opponent did the same.

I asked him if putting more terrain on the table would make assault units more viable, and his response was "why would I put more terrain on the table? This is a standard tournament setup."

I started to point out to him that assault units don't have a chance if there was no terrain for them to use to get into assault, but I figured it would be pointless

Individual8580
07-06-2013, 05:40
The fact that the Ion Cannon can go S8 AP2 every turn makes it even worse. Having that on a Large Blast Template every turn for no downside is ridiculous. It is Instant Death on most things, and strips away all armor (nothing short of Assault Terminators with their Storm Shields has a chance of surviving it).

IG has 66,6 varieties of High S Low AP large blasts without Gets Hot and nobody is crying about that. Nobody whines about Vindicators and whatever. Now that the one army that is supposed to be super reliant on shooting gets a good shooting weapon everyone is bitching. Why?

Forsworn
07-06-2013, 06:02
IG has 66,6 varieties of High S Low AP large blasts without Gets Hot and nobody is crying about that. Nobody whines about Vindicators and whatever. Now that the one army that is supposed to be super reliant on shooting gets a good shooting weapon everyone is bitching. Why?

Guard blasts are about as accurate as a heavily caffeinated squirrel aiming a batting machine. Vindicators are a lot easier to kill.
The reasons people hate the Ion Cannon and Riptide so much is simple.

1) Markerlights allow you to raise your BS to 5 and eliminate cover. So now you took the commonly available defense against it and said "Nope, I don't like that. So, eff you." The improvement to BS is also ridiculously good. It's only available on special characters and HQ's on the more elite armies (like Marines/Eldar). Now suddenly any old Tau unit can shoot like they are *insert God of choice here*'s gift to the galaxy.
2) Riptide is a T6 MC with a 2+. That means that most things wound on a 6, and you get to save against most weapons. AP2 and AP1 are rare enough that you have to either dedicate it all to the riptide (often a lot more points than it cost), or suffer its barrage. It also has the 6"+4D6 jump. That makes it nearly impossible to catch and force into CC where you would at least be able to stall it.

Nobody is complaining about the Ion Cannon. I am complaining about the Riptide with the Ion Cannon. I should have made that clear. To draw a comparison: people complain about a Riptide with an Ion Cannon for the same reason they complain about Balefire Heldrakes. What they bring to the table is MASSIVELY undercosted for what it can do, and is so hard to deal with that it puts anyone playing against it at a disadvantage (especially if they play an army that already suffers to high S/low AP or lacks consistent Long Range firepower. Also, nobody likes having their cover taken away against such a BLATANTLY strong weapon (again, the same as Balefire Heldrakes). :)

Shadeseraph
07-06-2013, 06:41
Guard blasts are about as accurate as a heavily caffeinated squirrel aiming a batting machine. Vindicators are a lot easier to kill.
The reasons people hate the Ion Cannon and Riptide so much is simple.

1) Markerlights allow you to raise your BS to 5 and eliminate cover. So now you took the commonly available defense against it and said "Nope, I don't like that. So, eff you." The improvement to BS is also ridiculously good. It's only available on special characters and HQ's on the more elite armies (like Marines/Eldar). Now suddenly any old Tau unit can shoot like they are *insert God of choice here*'s gift to the galaxy.
2) Riptide is a T6 MC with a 2+. That means that most things wound on a 6, and you get to save against most weapons. AP2 and AP1 are rare enough that you have to either dedicate it all to the riptide (often a lot more points than it cost), or suffer its barrage. It also has the 6"+4D6 jump. That makes it nearly impossible to catch and force into CC where you would at least be able to stall it.

Nobody is complaining about the Ion Cannon. I am complaining about the Riptide with the Ion Cannon. I should have made that clear. To draw a comparison: people complain about a Riptide with an Ion Cannon for the same reason they complain about Balefire Heldrakes. What they bring to the table is MASSIVELY undercosted for what it can do, and is so hard to deal with that it puts anyone playing against it at a disadvantage (especially if they play an army that already suffers to high S/low AP or lacks consistent Long Range firepower. Also, nobody likes having their cover taken away against such a BLATANTLY strong weapon (again, the same as Balefire Heldrakes). :)

You know? It's funny, as a lot of old Tau players complained back then about the loss of Targeting Arrays (the device that gave suits BS4) and the huge reliance on markerlights to be any more accurate than "a heavily caffeinated squirrel aiming a batting machine". And markerlights are not cheap nor resilient, to the point where a lot of experienced tau players are betting on markerlight-less armies. I love the idea of force multipliers, and I do think it is fairly well done on the new codex (in the old codex removing cover was far too expensive), but I see the point: ML sources are expensive, fragile, and use FOC slots that could be used elsewhere for more guns.

As for the riptide, it isn't cheap. I personally prefer using XV-8 or XV-25, as they have more firepower at their disposition at cheaper. 6 to 12 plasma shoots benefit a lot more from improved BS than any large blast, and I'd rather shoot more than 2 melta shots against an AV 14 vehicle, without taking into account the riptide can't split fire, unlike smaller suit teams. I love the riptide model, and in no way I think the rules are bad (although I don't agree they deserve to be spammed as much as they are), but I don't think they are as much of a no-brainer as you make them to be. Toughter, yes. Better? no. Broken? in no way.
And one of the biggest reasons they are taken so much is not the raw firepower they grant, but the ability to take both Interceptor and Skyfire on a platform with enough firepower to make taking them an acceptable choice. In a meta so dominated by flyers, of course they are going to be taken.
Finally, the engine can only be novaed for so many things. Double taps, 4D6 jumps, 3++ or main weapon nova profile. And that 3+ to activate is a serious threat if you start risking the riptide assuming the nova will save it's bacon.

I'm not saying Tau are weak, though. It's a solid codex, for sure, maybe slightly above average for 6th edition codexes, but in no way at the level of IG or Necrons. Weak troops, reliance on fragile markerlights and relatively low count for a non MEQ army counts a lot.
A key to understanding why the Tau army is hard to deal with, I belive, is that it is an unbalanced army. Any unbalanced army is complex to deal, as the kind of tactics you are used to may not work.

dooms33ker
07-06-2013, 08:40
And markerlights are not cheap nor resilient...

Sorry but, I had to stop reading after this. An 11 point model that can potentially remove a 2+ cover-save with just two marker lights, and can claim a 4+ cover-save itself while behind a ruin is, simply put, an amazing value. Riptide plus ten pathfinders equals the new Helldrake 2.0, except more expensive, but able to kill TEQ and vehicles.

And no, I don't consider crisis suits, all of which can be insta gibbed, to be as big of a concern.

I don't think Tau is broken, it's not. There are weaknesses to the list for sure, but non-horde armies are having a tough time dealing with the riptide spam right now. Tyranids gave a lot of folks grief when their book came out and marine players saw four or five really huge MCs running around. But they are primarily close combat based, and 6th edition is a shooting game first and forth-most. Furthermore, few MCs have a 2+ save AND fnp, AND a 5++/3++ save.

Thud
07-06-2013, 08:50
An 11 point model that can potentially remove a 2+ cover-save

Sorry but, I had to stop reading after this. A Pathfinder can't even potentially remove a 2+ cover save, because you need two markelight tokens for that, and a Pathfinder can only generate one.

Your off-handed remark about how a Riptide and ten Pathfinders are more expensive than a Baledrake is a little (read: very) disingenuous because it costs almost as much as two Baldrakes. And in a game that's balanced by point values, I'd say that's somewhat significant.

Killgore
07-06-2013, 09:03
And yet all you need to do is sniff at the pathfinders and they die! Each new codex has fast units that can get in your face and destroy these vital Tau units.

I'm looking forward to chasing Riptides around with new eldar

razormasticator
07-06-2013, 14:54
And yet all you need to do is sniff at the pathfinders and they die! Each new codex has fast units that can get in your face and destroy these vital Tau units.

I'm looking forward to chasing Riptides around with new eldar

Pathfinders drop like Flies. They are a threat... but still.

Gungo
07-06-2013, 15:23
Let's be honest here Eldar while a slight upgrade from their old dex and decent is not OP or top tier. I don't see elder running over the tournament scene. Tau is disgustingly good however and that has more to do with a REALLY powerful design synergy and assault nerfing in 6th edition.
I'd really like to see a solid assault army in 6th edition. Something that can survive the ridiculous overwatch and wall of shots the tau unleash and able to close in and assault quickly. There needs to be a mix and everything is lending itself to heavy shooting and minor assaults. I'm really hoping tyranids/orks get their assault due diligence. I'd still rank necrons, then tau, then grey knights, then either Eldar or CSM. But we will see after the next major tournament.

Individual8580
07-06-2013, 15:38
I'd really like to see a solid assault army in 6th edition. Something that can survive the ridiculous overwatch and wall of shots the tau unleash and able to close in and assault quickly.

Dogpile on the Tau, soften them up with guns or splat them with blasts if they are clumped up. I'm pretty sure that even heavily assault oriented armies have some form of shooting weapons. Some of them even pack pretty sweet guns like DE. For goodnes sake Overwatch is ~1/6 chance of doing anything so you don't need to prune an unit all that much before it becomes pretty much useless for overwatch purposes. All it does is that it act to counter some of the most absurd scenarios that happened in 5th such a 2 Kabalite Warriors murdering 12 Fire Warriors or some random Marine stragglers pulverizing IG squads.

CC still allows units to hide from shooting and has Sweeping Advances so it most certainly still has it's place.

Iron_Lord
07-06-2013, 15:44
Doesn't one of the banners (Devastation?) turn Dark Angels into a pretty intimidating shooty army? Especially if they take Lysander as allied HQ.

razormasticator
07-06-2013, 15:55
Let's be honest here Eldar while a slight upgrade from their old dex and decent is not OP or top tier. I don't see elder running over the tournament scene. Tau is disgustingly good however and that has more to do with a REALLY powerful design synergy and assault nerfing in 6th edition.
I'd really like to see a solid assault army in 6th edition. Something that can survive the ridiculous overwatch and wall of shots the tau unleash and able to close in and assault quickly. There needs to be a mix and everything is lending itself to heavy shooting and minor assaults. I'm really hoping tyranids/orks get their assault due diligence. I'd still rank necrons, then tau, then grey knights, then either Eldar or CSM. But we will see after the next major tournament.


Many people are sleeping on the Eldar book, in the hands of a skilled player this book will kick some butt. Str 6 is everywhere, and on the cheap. Wave Serpents next to the Cron Barges are the most survivable Transports in the game and spit out a ton of fire now.
Dark Reapers are to be feared and will decimate things now.

aim
07-06-2013, 16:04
I don't actually think the current 6th Codicies are too bad. I actually think they are pretty balanced books. I just get the feeling that there's some players of some armies are getting some knotted panties about not have a fairly considerably stronger army than the others any more and the prospect of things being a bit more even. As far as I'm concerned, more even = better game.

Individual8580
07-06-2013, 16:05
I wonder if the Eldar will start some kind of a mech renaissance since Wave Serpents are so tough.

NemoSD
07-06-2013, 16:08
Many people are sleeping on the Eldar book, in the hands of a skilled player this book will kick some butt. Str 6 is everywhere, and on the cheap. Wave Serpents next to the Cron Barges are the most survivable Transports in the game and spit out a ton of fire now.
Dark Reapers are to be feared and will decimate things now.

Let people think the Eldar are crap, nevermind that we pretty much have near army wide rending vs toughness models, warp spiders guns can be downright brutal with their rending+1 (Don't remember if it is against toughness only.) Then, as you mentioned, the Dark Reapers... plus there are the new Banshees, which if the table has cover, will be able to get in the opposing players face the first turn. Banshee masks on Autarch's, amazingly useful Warlock powers, Fire Prisms with all around nuking ability, up to and including a brightlance+1, the buff to scatter lasers making Wraithlords, Guardian Squads, and Wraithknights scarier... the list goes on.

The Eldar are going to hit hard, very hard. However they are still focused and do need to get close, but that is not exactly hard for them.

Rentacle Tape
07-06-2013, 16:41
Let people think the Eldar are crap, nevermind that we pretty much have near army wide rending vs toughness models, warp spiders guns can be downright brutal with their rending+1 (Don't remember if it is against toughness only.) Then, as you mentioned, the Dark Reapers... plus there are the new Banshees, which if the table has cover, will be able to get in the opposing players face the first turn. Banshee masks on Autarch's, amazingly useful Warlock powers, Fire Prisms with all around nuking ability, up to and including a brightlance+1, the buff to scatter lasers making Wraithlords, Guardian Squads, and Wraithknights scarier... the list goes on.

The Eldar are going to hit hard, very hard. However they are still focused and do need to get close, but that is not exactly hard for them.

The Tau are going to crush Eldar, though.

From my few games against the new Eldar thus far, it really seems like they require serpent-spam to close effectively against shooting lists (I run Emperor's Children); and the Tau just street-sweep those serpents like they're specifically designed to. This, combined with the Tau's ability to deny cover - which is the other way Eldar survive long enough to reach their sweet-spot for shooting, via stealth and shroud - makes them just too much to handle for the space elves. I'm sure some Eldarphile will come up with a tooled list that can compete, but I think that the vast majority of the Eldar player-base is really going to have an uphill battle ahead of them, when facing the space goats.

razormasticator
07-06-2013, 16:50
The Tau are going to crush Eldar, though.

From my few games against the new Eldar thus far, it really seems like they require serpent-spam to close effectively against shooting lists (I run Emperor's Children); and the Tau just street-sweep those serpents like they're specifically designed to. This, combined with the Tau's ability to deny cover - which is the other way Eldar survive long enough to reach their sweet-spot for shooting, via stealth and shroud - makes them just too much to handle for the space elves. I'm sure some Eldarphile will come up with a tooled list that can compete, but I think that the vast majority of the Eldar player-base is really going to have an uphill battle ahead of them, when facing the space goats.


Im not convinced. As the mentioned above, there is a ton of Str6 AP2, Str 10 ap1, Str 8 Ap2 available. Not to mention that any penetration hits on a serpents front or side are reduced to a glance on a 2+. Any hits.
You will see 3-4 Serpent lists running amok. Plus the army is FAST, Hawks, Spiders, Jet Bikes...
Sure Tau can deny them cover, but how are Tau going to do with Jump-Shoot-Jump in their face just like they can do? Both War Walkers and Warp Spiders can Jump Shoot Jump basically.
And the Wraithknight, while a giant fire magnet. Is a FAST giant fire magnet. Eldar don't get the fancy tricks on overwatch like tau do, but with Warlock Buffs and Wraith Units I see Eldar being very shooting and hard hitting.

Rentacle Tape
07-06-2013, 17:04
Im not convinced. As the mentioned above, there is a ton of Str6 AP2, Str 10 ap1, Str 8 Ap2 available. Not to mention that any penetration hits on a serpents front or side are reduced to a glance on a 2+. Any hits.
You will see 3-4 Serpent lists running amok. Plus the army is FAST, Hawks, Spiders, Jet Bikes...
Sure Tau can deny them cover, but how are Tau going to do with Jump-Shoot-Jump in their face just like they can do? Both War Walkers and Warp Spiders can Jump Shoot Jump basically.
And the Wraithknight, while a giant fire magnet. Is a FAST giant fire magnet. Eldar don't get the fancy tricks on overwatch like tau do, but with Warlock Buffs and Wraith Units I see Eldar being very shooting and hard hitting.

Nor am I convinced by your 'but they're fast!' argument. Their speed didn't save them from noise marine salvos all game, and my list doesn't have anywhere near the shooting capabilities of the Tau.

I've beaten a biker list, an avengers list, two wraithwall lists, and a guardian/serpent spam list so far with my boys- and I'd welcome someone wasting points on a knight ;). If I'm capable of almost tabling most Eldar lists, well, then I can only imagine what the Tau will be able to do. Now, to be perfectly fair, the book is new, so maybe these Eldar players just haven't found their 'groove' yet. But the ones I played are Eldar veterans with tourney experience, so they're certainly not green with the codex either.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to beat the Tau- but I don't think for a moment that it's going to be a fair fight.

Losing Command
07-06-2013, 17:08
Besides the Waveserpent, most units in the Eldar codex seem rather fragile to me. The codex gave the impression of being somewhat like the DE : hits like a truck, but falls over when you sneeze to hard at it before it got near you. Rending on everything sounds OP, but for every time you shred a unit with it there's a number of times you don't even roll a single 6. It is great when it works, but when you rely on it to achieve victory it will screw you over. But what is the best thing about the Eldar codex : no more nobrainer units that autowin the game for you :D good players can stomp with it, and that is exactly how most codices should work (I'm looking at you, Necrons)

Spiney Norman
07-06-2013, 17:13
I suspect Tau are viewed as "better" because they can spam units with interceptor, which is the most broken USR in 6th edition and absolutely should not exist. They can also field a lot of shooting which is ap2/3 and ignores cover saves, which is bound to upset marine players.

Eldar seem to have 'crept' a little, but not drastically, they certainly have the jump on their dark cousins, but that codex is three years old now, I was quite shocked to see how cheap their Jetbikes are, esp considering how easy it is to get them 2+ cover (jink+flat out+conceal). The thing that strikes me about the Eldar codex is (actually quite similar to the dark Eldar codex), how well balanced everything is, there are no obvious must-takes, not even amongst the new models, but everything seems a fairly strong choice and nothing seems totally useless. Must be the PK magic.

razormasticator
07-06-2013, 17:22
Nor am I convinced by your 'but they're fast!' argument. Their speed didn't save them from noise marine salvos all game, and my list doesn't have anywhere near the shooting capabilities of the Tau.

I've beaten a biker list, an avengers list, two wraithwall lists, and a guardian/serpent spam list so far with my boys- and I'd welcome someone wasting points on a knight ;). If I'm capable of almost tabling most Eldar lists, well, then I can only imagine what the Tau will be able to do. Now, to be perfectly fair, the book is new, so maybe these Eldar players just haven't found their 'groove' yet. But the ones I played are Eldar veterans with tourney experience, so they're certainly not green with the codex either.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to beat the Tau- but I don't think for a moment that it's going to be a fair fight.

Thats fine. Continue to dismiss it. I just dont see Tau as being the be all end all. And yes your right, maybe some of the players you have played haven't found their groove yet.
We can agree to disagree.

Rentacle Tape
07-06-2013, 17:29
there are no obvious must-takes

We must be looking at different codices, then.

Wraithguard, spiritseers, warp-spiders and serpents are pretty much 'must takes'. Ilyanden's supplement will be quite popular, I imagine.

owen matthew
07-06-2013, 18:01
But I will say this about the Tau book, it had the least amount of entries than any other book. It seems like their units were just better because every entry needed to count. The Tau book had what… 15 or 16 non HQ options? That’s by far the smallest of any book. Comparably the Eldar book had I think 25+ non HQ entries? So if you took the 10 worst entries in the Eldar book, chopped them out, and compared this theoretical “new Eldar book” with only 15 entries to the Tau books entries, how would they feel? Sometimes it’s a matter of perspective. I don’t know, just food for thought.


Really interesting point, I had not looked at it that way.

NemoSD
07-06-2013, 18:25
Nor am I convinced by your 'but they're fast!' argument. Their speed didn't save them from noise marine salvos all game, and my list doesn't have anywhere near the shooting capabilities of the Tau.

I've beaten a biker list, an avengers list, two wraithwall lists, and a guardian/serpent spam list so far with my boys- and I'd welcome someone wasting points on a knight ;). If I'm capable of almost tabling most Eldar lists, well, then I can only imagine what the Tau will be able to do. Now, to be perfectly fair, the book is new, so maybe these Eldar players just haven't found their 'groove' yet. But the ones I played are Eldar veterans with tourney experience, so they're certainly not green with the codex either.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to beat the Tau- but I don't think for a moment that it's going to be a fair fight.

The Eldar are not lacking for ranged target priority. A wraithknight can drop a lot of str 6 pain from a decent distance away, take the hits, and provide the best defense for Guardians, IE, something more important to shoot at. War Walkers are simply amazing weapon platforms now, and our Crimson Hunters can work a number on things like Hammerheads, broadsides, etc. Wraithlords still have a good place, although Fire Prisms still have a slight edge due to built in versatility. I see a Tau player who assumes he is safe at range as an unhappy Tau player. Warp Spiders will never be 'at range,' infiltrating Scorpions, not fun, and deep striking all precision shooting pathfinders with Illic are just going to be a massive headache to Tau.

Alex_H
07-06-2013, 19:07
Sorry but, I had to stop reading after this. An 11 point model that can potentially remove a 2+ cover-save with just two marker lights, and can claim a 4+ cover-save itself while behind a ruin is, simply put, an amazing value. Riptide plus ten pathfinders equals the new Helldrake 2.0, except more expensive, but able to kill TEQ and vehicles.

And no, I don't consider crisis suits, all of which can be insta gibbed, to be as big of a concern.

I don't think Tau is broken, it's not. There are weaknesses to the list for sure, but non-horde armies are having a tough time dealing with the riptide spam right now. Tyranids gave a lot of folks grief when their book came out and marine players saw four or five really huge MCs running around. But they are primarily close combat based, and 6th edition is a shooting game first and forth-most. Furthermore, few MCs have a 2+ save AND fnp, AND a 5++/3++ save.

Personally I do not think that the lack of 2+ save and FNP is the Tyranid downside, its the fact that everyone and their mother can hide behind a wall, reduce the MC down to 2/3 wounds with overwatch and finish it off by punching it in the face all before it gets to attack one model.

To me, 6th armies like Tau wouldn't be so scary if they couldn't hide behind a wall and get an obscene free bonus.

House rule away cover bonus in assault and see what difference that makes to your games.

razormasticator
07-06-2013, 19:24
Personally I do not think that the lack of 2+ save and FNP is the Tyranid downside, its the fact that everyone and their mother can hide behind a wall, reduce the MC down to 2/3 wounds with overwatch and finish it off by punching it in the face all before it gets to attack one model.

To me, 6th armies like Tau wouldn't be so scary if they couldn't hide behind a wall and get an obscene free bonus.

House rule away cover bonus in assault and see what difference that makes to your games.

Agreed, that and that your MC's the real meat of your Book are all over costed. Carnies start at what? 170 or something along those lines.

The_Dragon_Rising
07-06-2013, 19:51
Wraithguard are pretty much 'must takes'.

I'd be interested in knowing how you come to this conclusion. A unit which is not a troop without a specific HQ is a limit.
Compared to the previous codex all that have realistically gained is a small drop in points and a slight boost to their guns.
The flamers are too overpriced even for a unit of 5.
Compared to the previous codex they have lost the ability to get conceal via a Warlock and most importantly Fortune.

As a player of Wraithwall with the last codex I feel they have lost so much that they no longer justify their points; T6 3+/5++ is just not that hard to shift compared to the same with a re-roll on their save.

They also fail so fulfil a solid role that other units cannot do for cheaper:
Objective holders - Rangers
Objective takers - Jetbikes/SerpentGuardians
Anti-tank - Fire Dragons/Fire Prism
Close-combat - Spear/Scorpions

As to the codex overall I feel that Eldar are solid and love the fact that most of the units are a viable choice. Tau are a natural counter to Eldar with the current rules so it is hard to compare them but for the most part both codices are better all-round codeces than some of the other, more recent efforts (Necrons, GK).

Surgency
07-06-2013, 19:57
its the fact that everyone and their mother can hide behind a wall, reduce the MC down to 2/3 wounds with overwatch and finish it off by punching it in the face all before it gets to attack one model.

How the hell does any army other than tau take 3-4 wounds off of an mc in overwatch? It's even difficult for tau, though a little more possible

Poseidal
07-06-2013, 20:04
How the hell does any army other than tau take 3-4 wounds off of an mc in overwatch? It's even difficult for tau, though a little more possible

Eldar Wraithguard with D-Scythes will overwatch getting a lot of hits (flamer template), and without Eternal Warrior or T8 could be dying if they take one unsaved wound, of which they would only be taking Invulnerable saves against.

Rentacle Tape
07-06-2013, 20:17
I'd be interested in knowing how you come to this conclusion. A unit which is not a troop without a specific HQ is a limit.

It's a 70 point tax to make them troops, that meanwhile gives you a desirable psyker. Not seeing this as a downside.


Compared to the previous codex all that have realistically gained is a small drop in points and a slight boost to their guns.

Slight boost? You've made is quite clear that this conversation is pointless, if you genuinely believe the things you type. :wtf:

Craftworld
07-06-2013, 20:18
Slight boost? You've made is quite clear that this conversation is pointless, if you genuinely believe the things you type. :wtf:

I see your :wtf:, and raise you a :confused::wtf::confused:.

Wraithguard are disgusting this edition!

The bearded one
07-06-2013, 21:51
I see your :wtf:, and raise you a :confused::wtf::confused:.

Wraithguard are disgusting this edition!

They are terrific indeed, with great toughness and guns, though still only have 12" range. It's not hard to avoid them alltogether due to this though.

Regarding waveserpents and their serpentshields; it is a good upgrade, definately no problems with it. What is noteworthy about it is the nifty effect it has with various kinds of anti-tank. It makes melta's sort of a non-issue untill you reach the third melta. However it needs to be more concerned about simply being glanced to death by the likes of autocannons and tau missilespam. My trio of missilespam battlesuits with the chip granting tankhunter just takes off 4-5 hullpoints like there's no tomorrow for example, while my commander or riptide with melta just throws up his hands..

Shadeseraph
07-06-2013, 22:18
Regarding waveserpents and their serpentshields; it is a good upgrade, definately no problems with it. What is noteworthy about it is the nifty effect it has with various kinds of anti-tank. It makes melta's sort of a non-issue untill you reach the third melta. However it needs to be more concerned about simply being glanced to death by the likes of autocannons and tau missilespam. My trio of missilespam battlesuits with the chip granting tankhunter just takes off 4-5 hullpoints like there's no tomorrow for example, while my commander or riptide with melta just throws up his hands..

'Nother nail on the coffin of the railside, eh?

Surgency
07-06-2013, 22:38
Eldar Wraithguard with D-Scythes will overwatch getting a lot of hits (flamer template), and without Eternal Warrior or T8 could be dying if they take one unsaved wound, of which they would only be taking Invulnerable saves against.

Ah. Haven't had much of a chance to look at the eldar book. So one unit from one codex can do it fairly well, one codex kinda can, and three potentially could. Seems to me that mcs were completely nerfed into oblivion

The bearded one
08-06-2013, 00:14
'Nother nail on the coffin of the railside, eh?

* giggle *

I already ditched my hammerhead quite a while back, and went in favor of an ionhead ;) Add in 2 markerlights and you've got a str8 large ap3 blast on which you can reroll the 'gets hot' roll and reroll the scatter distance. Combine it with the riptide's str8 ap2 large blast and giggle maniacally.

Alex_H
08-06-2013, 00:27
How the hell does any army other than tau take 3-4 wounds off of an mc in overwatch? It's even difficult for tau, though a little more possible

Nearly all troop units who get access to multiple plasma/melta/or lots for St4 shoots. (looking at you Crisis team [old codex], marines, terminators, veteran guard squad) The list is quite endless.

Shadeseraph
08-06-2013, 00:44
* giggle *

I already ditched my hammerhead quite a while back, and went in favor of an ionhead ;) Add in 2 markerlights and you've got a str8 large ap3 blast on which you can reroll the 'gets hot' roll and reroll the scatter distance. Combine it with the riptide's str8 ap2 large blast and giggle maniacally.

And people called me crazy when I said BS6 was worth it, even just to avoid Gets Hot.
But yeah, I agree. And now, the Ion cannon is even more interesting, with the proliferation of MCs.


Nearly all troop units who get access to multiple plasma/melta/or lots for St4 shoots. (looking at you Crisis team [old codex], marines, terminators, veteran guard squad) The list is quite endless.

You, sir, are a very, very lucky guy. I, for the love of Dice God, can't get more than 2 hits out of the 12 shots my crisis suits pull when overwatching with plasma rifles at full power. I'd need about 2-3 crisis teams supporting fire to -maybe- be able to remove 3-4 wounds of a T6 AS3+ MC on overwatch. Or a ton of markerlights. And then -maybe- an additional wound if one suit happens to have an onager gauntlet.

The bearded one
08-06-2013, 00:47
Nearly all troop units who get access to multiple plasma/melta/or lots for St4 shoots. (looking at you Crisis team [old codex], marines, terminators, veteran guard squad) The list is quite endless.

In overwatch, not on regular shooting.

In overwatch a hypothetical 10 guys with plasmaguns (in rapidfire range) would inflict about 2 wounds on a T6 MC.


And people called me crazy when I said BS6 was worth it, even just to avoid Gets Hot.
But yeah, I agree. And now, the Ion cannon is even more interesting, with the proliferation of MCs.

I used BS6 during throne of skulls to avoid gets hot on my riptide, but when I got back did I notice it's a reroll meaning I could reroll the scatter too. I already had 4 wins and an exceptionally close draw during throne of skulls, and didnt use the ionhead. Imagine if I had one, and used the scatter-reroll!

For MCs I quite like using my sniperkroot though, and my squad of battlesuits with puretide chip, who get acces to 'monsterhunter' :D

KR3LL
08-06-2013, 14:25
I really don't view this as codex creep. More as Chaos Space Marines is just a bad codex. I think all the other codex books of 6th edition are very much within the same power range.
What really kills me now about CSM is the army wide rule. Ask anybody...its viewed more as a handicap then a bonus. Must Challenge (which is fine and fluffy in my book) but if you win...god forbid your awesome HQ is turned into a worthless spawn or an incredibly vulnerable Daemon Prince. Yes there is marks and VotLW but those have to be paid for.

Losing Command
08-06-2013, 15:01
I really don't view this as codex creep. More as Chaos Space Marines is just a bad codex. I think all the other codex books of 6th edition are very much within the same power range.
What really kills me now about CSM is the army wide rule. Ask anybody...its viewed more as a handicap then a bonus. Must Challenge (which is fine and fluffy in my book) but if you win...god forbid your awesome HQ is turned into a worthless spawn or an incredibly vulnerable Daemon Prince. Yes there is marks and VotLW but those have to be paid for.

What bugs me the most about that special rule is when your sorcerer kills an enemy character and becomes a Daemonprince ... and suddenly stops being a psyker. IT MAKES NO SENSE :wtf:

Ssilmath
08-06-2013, 15:16
What bugs me the most about that special rule is when your sorcerer kills an enemy character and becomes a Daemonprince ... and suddenly stops being a psyker. IT MAKES NO SENSE :wtf:

Huh. I haven't gotten Dark Apotheosis on my Sorcerers yet, but thought that Psykers transferred over when they ascended. They really need to rethink Dark Apotheosis.

Bergen Beerbelly
08-06-2013, 15:19
Well, one of the things I have noticed about the Eldar is that since the new codex came out, the nasty rule about Farseers not being able to cast spells inside of a wave serpent has dissapeared. So since I play 2500 point games most of the time with dual force organization, this makes the Eldar codex a force to be reckoned with against the Tau.

I have been toying around with 4 Farseers accompanying either Guardian Squads in Wave Serpents or Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents.

I have been using Divination powers for them and trying for the forewarning spell. That 4+ invulnerable save on wave serpents makes tau cry!

Zeebeest
08-06-2013, 18:18
I agree that these new codexes are fine. Although I still think they went a little overboard with the eldar this time.
it's a specialist army and a tiny mistake can cost you a lot, but all the low ap values and average range still bothers me.
ok guardians don't have the range but why take them if you've got dire avengers ( with counter attack, WHY!!!).
they really don't have the " glass jaw" they used to have, good thing but it's nearly impossible to kill them now.
they shoot you to bits run away, overwatch you to bits, you lose an attack due to defensive grenades and they strike first.
not a chance, certenly not with a level 3 psyker for a handfull of points.

don't fear Tau, do fear Eldar.
but still have to play a serious game against them though, we'll talk after that.

But back on topic. I really miss the 'new' stuff in codexes.
it's all psykers, flyers and monsterous creatures now, feels like warhammer to me.
why don't the come up with some really new things instead of giving everyone the same thing in a different package ( i.e. Riptide-wraightknight).

time to kill some xenos now.

Iron_Lord
08-06-2013, 18:33
Well, one of the things I have noticed about the Eldar is that since the new codex came out, the nasty rule about Farseers not being able to cast spells inside of a wave serpent has dissapeared.

Is there no FAQ about psykers in general casting inside transports?

NemoSD
08-06-2013, 18:37
Is there no FAQ about psykers in general casting inside transports?

Yeah a Psyker can buff his own vehicle if no firepoints. Eldar in the last book, via FAQ were not allowed to even do that. Now that FAQ doesn't count.

MikeyB
09-06-2013, 00:56
irregardless

Sorry i know this is off topic and I apologize profusely but THAT IS NOT A WORD! The word is "REGARDLESS" if you really want that "ir" use "irrespective"

This has been a public service announcement brought to you by Insomnia! The fast track solution to sleep!

aim
09-06-2013, 01:41
Sorry i know this is off topic and I apologize profusely but THAT IS NOT A WORD! The word is "REGARDLESS" if you really want that "ir" use "irrespective"

This has been a public service announcement brought to you by Insomnia! The fast track solution to sleep!

No need to apologise, that 'word' bugs the hell out of me too, it's almost as bad as people saying "I COULD care less" and not realising that what they have just said has the exact opposite meaning of what the actual phrase is meant to convey.

The bearded one
09-06-2013, 02:23
No need to capslock about it :p I'm not even a native english speaker. The 'word' is controversial but it has been in use for over 200 years though, so stubborn enough to warrant a look as to its validity, because language is an organic thing, rather than strict as math. Plus it sounds pretty natural. Let's get back to complaining about supposed codex strengths ;)

MikeyB
09-06-2013, 02:32
No need to capslock about it :p I'm not even a native english speaker. The 'word' is controversial but it has been in use for over 200 years though, so stubborn enough to warrant a look as to its validity, because language is an organic thing, rather than strict as math. Plus it sounds pretty natural.

I could rant about this for hours but I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I have so we will have to agree to disagree ;) x

OT: The Tau and Eldar codexes are better because they contain 0 Space Marines. /thread :P

Radium
09-06-2013, 02:48
OT: The Tau and Eldar codexes are better because they contain 0 Space Marines. /thread :P

By that logic, the Eldar codex is also vastly better than the Tau codex because it contains only Eldar.

And obviously, the Eldar codex is by FAR the best codex in 6th ans will be the best codex to be released for a good while to come. No mon-keigh = best codex.

MikeyB
09-06-2013, 03:01
By that logic, the Eldar codex is also vastly better than the Tau codex because it contains only Eldar.

And obviously, the Eldar codex is by FAR the best codex in 6th ans will be the best codex to be released for a good while to come. No mon-keigh = best codex.

Exactly! Question answered! We're done here.

Xerkics
09-06-2013, 03:02
On the subject of monstrous creatures even guardians and jetbikes can put them down quite way easier than before with rending shots on their guns now, the bikes especially since they dont have a problem with range. MC or terminators all kinda go down the same as a 6 is auto wound ignoring armour no matter the toughness. Which is a bit silly as you can get toughness 9 Tyrant an avatar of khaine couldnt wound but a lowly guardian can put down. It wouldnt be so bad if it was either just ignoring armour or auto wound but not both which is a bit ott since with new immortal wave serpents they have no problem of getting into close range to gun down your terminators or whatever, why even take fire dragons aspect warriors now if you can just gun down terminators with guardians

The bearded one
09-06-2013, 03:12
why even take fire dragons aspect warriors now if you can just gun down terminators with guardians

'cause one needs a 6 to wound and ignore armour, and the other a 2+....?

Drasanil
09-06-2013, 03:12
Which is a bit silly as you can get toughness 9 Tyrant an avatar of khaine couldnt wound but a lowly guardian can put down.

The avatar can wound toughness 9, and with Crushing blow it can wound toughness 10.


It wouldnt be so bad if it was either just ignoring armour or auto wound but not both which is a bit ott since with new immortal wave serpents they have no problem of getting into close range to gun down your terminators or whatever, why even take fire dragons aspect warriors now if you can just gun down terminators with guardians

Fire Dragons are great at tank popping and better yet reliable, even with all the pseudo rending around I doubt you'll see many people count on guardians for that. It's a nice bonus, not something you should plan around.

Xerkics
09-06-2013, 03:19
The avatar can wound toughness 9, and with Crushing blow it can wound toughness 10.



Fire Dragons are great at tank popping and better yet reliable, even with all the pseudo rending around I doubt you'll see many people count on guardians for that. It's a nice bonus, not something you should plan around.

Right i forgot that avatar can smash :p.
Im ranting a bit ,but ye i was on the receiving end of the pseudo rending today and the auto wound part of it is ticking me off. Im fine with kabalite poison guns wounding on 4s as you can save it but having your t9 mc gunned down by things fraction of its cost that shouldnt even be able to wound it is humiliating.


Fire dragons are also extremely expensive compared to guardians. And rending on the jetbikes is extremely brutal. I think ill stop playing tyranids for a bit now as pseudo rending is a bit much with the amount of 6s that tend to get rolled as iron arm no longer seems to help survive that well.

Drasanil
09-06-2013, 03:31
Right i forgot that avatar can smash :p.

Avatar doesn't need to smash. S6 wounds T9 on a 6+, just like S7 Wounds T10 on a 6+. Admittedly smashing is better.


Im ranting a bit ,but ye i was on the receiving end of the pseudo rending today and the auto wound part of it is ticking me off. Im fine with kabalite poison guns wounding on 4s as you can save it but having your t9 mc gunned down by things fraction of its cost that shouldnt even be able to wound it is humiliating.

Kind of your own fault no? The pseudo-rending thing has been one of the more talked about changes, you didn't consider them a threat and you got caught with your pants down.


Fire dragons are also extremely expensive compared to guardians. And rending on the jetbikes is extremely brutal. I think ill stop playing tyranids for a bit now as pseudo rending is a bit much with the amount of 6s that tend to get rolled as iron arm no longer seems to help survive that well.

Perhaps you should use the nids native powers against eldar then? Don't you guys have a wound stealing power? So what if T9 is no good? Sucking wounds back from T3 guardians shouldn't be much of a challenge.

Ssilmath
09-06-2013, 03:36
Gunning down Guardians with Gaunts shouldn't be much a challenge, nor should using them to soak up fire and keep those scary 12 inch range guns away from the big bugs. Seriously, Eldar have the same issue that Tau have. Shoot them back and watch as their low number of mediocre toughness models crumple and their outgoing fire diminishes rapidly. Save your big bugs for the things that need extra effort in killing.

Rentacle Tape
09-06-2013, 04:17
My noise marines don't care if they 'rend' or not, given their limited threat-range.

They die just the same as their emo cousins. :D

infamousme
09-06-2013, 04:50
Sorry i know this is off topic and I apologize profusely but THAT IS NOT A WORD! The word is "REGARDLESS" if you really want that "ir" use "irrespective"

This has been a public service announcement brought to you by Insomnia! The fast track solution to sleep!
Thank you :D

Gungo
09-06-2013, 16:09
Dogpile on the Tau, soften them up with guns or splat them with blasts if they are clumped up. I'm pretty sure that even heavily assault oriented armies have some form of shooting weapons. Some of them even pack pretty sweet guns like DE. For goodnes sake Overwatch is ~1/6 chance of doing anything so you don't need to prune an unit all that much before it becomes pretty much useless for overwatch purposes. All it does is that it act to counter some of the most absurd scenarios that happened in 5th such a 2 Kabalite Warriors murdering 12 Fire Warriors or some random Marine stragglers pulverizing IG squads.

CC still allows units to hide from shooting and has Sweeping Advances so it most certainly still has it's place.

I think you missed my point. Assault is basically a secondary effect to shooting now. It lends itself to many games based on the shooting phase and very little emphasis on an assault based army. I just want to see more variety. Orks shouldn't need to load up on shoota boys just to be competitive and basically that was your recommendation to load up on shooting on an assault army. I don't even play an assault based army I play guard, but i'd like to collect an assault army that's not just an extension of another shooting based army.