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Herkamer63
07-06-2013, 20:14
With the pace of the codex releases, it won't be too long until they get through all the armies. With all the balances being implented and making the game more enjoyable, one would ponder this: what would a new Grey Knight codex be like? I know what some people will say. They should be rolled up into an inquistion codex. That would be a popular statement, but that's not the subject of this thread on whether or not they should be rolled up. This is strictly just the Grey Knights and what their codex, if there will be one, would look like. I'll start it out, and i know i will take heat for this, all Grey Knights should have their WS go up by one. Hear me out. Grey Knights are the most elite, even more so than any other SM chapter, in the Imperium. Why not justify them further with one improved stat? Also make them fearless. Their purpose is to fight daemons so need to be tough mentally. Brotherhood Champions with a base amount of attacks plus the stances and an extra wound. I would even say throw in at least one more nemesis force weapon or two. With the balance of 6th ed, however, up the overall pts on all the Grey Knight units by like 5 or something. Limit psy bolt ammo to bolters only (at least storm bolters). up the pts on the psy cannons. That's all i got right now. What are your guys' thoughts?

budman
07-06-2013, 20:20
1 random powers all over the shop!
2 make the psy-lencer worth taking as they have 2 hw options - well one point five as the flamer is 2nd rate the lencer is pointless
make it gets hot s5 ap3 (the gets hot is the grey knight giving his life to fire it)
3 split the Inquisitors an gk into two tied in dexes

edit 4 A grey knight Knight

Konovalev
07-06-2013, 21:09
Grey Knights are still space marines so I don't see any justification for their stat line changing. GK's big thing is fancy-do-dah equipment and anti-daemon weaponry.

I could see them losing force weapons on everyone except maybe squad leaders and HQ's simply for balance. They would almost certainly get their own psychic table(s) that is geared towards combating daemons. Their own warlord table like everyone else. Psilencer balanced as it is currently absolutely useless. Dreads, possibly only venerable Dreads might get a skyfire option of some sort. Either a straight vehicle wargear piece that grants it or on specific weapons like the missile launcher. The Vindicare will also probably get some sort of skyfire round. They'll also probably get something that forces daemonic instability tests I'm sure.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them get some sort of gravity dampening field generator that automatically grounds any FMC in flight within X inches, in order to combat flying daemons.

Calling it now, this thread won't go long before the same fate as all other GK threads befalls this one.

Borgnine
07-06-2013, 21:17
Grey Knights are still space marines so I don't see any justification for their stat line changing. GK's big thing is fancy-do-dah equipment and anti-daemon weaponry.

I could see them losing force weapons on everyone except maybe squad leaders and HQ's simply for balance. They would almost certainly get their own psychic table(s) that is geared towards combating daemons. Their own warlord table like everyone else. Psilencer balanced as it is currently absolutely useless. Dreads, possibly only venerable Dreads might get a skyfire option of some sort. Either a straight vehicle wargear piece that grants it or on specific weapons like the missile launcher. The Vindicare will also probably get some sort of skyfire round. They'll also probably get something that forces daemonic instability tests I'm sure.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them get some sort of gravity dampening field generator that automatically grounds any FMC in flight within X inches, in order to combat flying daemons.

Calling it now, this thread won't go long before the same fate as all other GK threads befalls this one.

Actually, the grey knights had buffed stats before this codex rolled around. They used to be the best of the best but know they're just regular marines with cool toys. I really hope they go back to how they used to be.

Ananiel
07-06-2013, 21:28
IMO, Grey Knights are likely to get LESS powerful, not more.

A.T.
07-06-2013, 21:42
Would be nice to see them revert to the old style GKs, with only 'inspiration' from the new one. Shrouded, fearless, high strength, high skill, and more obviously an elite anti-daemon force supporting the inquisition than "codex:space marines with stormbolters and force weapons"

It was a terrible waste of potential to crowbar them into a more generic marine format - seriously 5-10 models with one special per five, ATSKNF, combat squads, and a razorback transport - just paint them blue and call them smurfs why don't you ward.

dokfm
08-06-2013, 04:08
I'm guessing they'll become individually more powerful, but as an army less so. After all, they should be the greatest warriors in the Emperor's army; an elite among elites. I could see them bringing back True Grit, Fearless, and similar, while making them more expensive per squad member. Force weapons will probably become less common (like Konovalev said, probably only on squad sergeants). There'll be a "Lore of Daemon-smiting" for random Psychic powers; in turn, I bet Warp Quakes are gonna go away by and large. I could also see the Interceptor squads working more like Warp Spiders (Jump Infantry or 6" + 2d6"; if you roll a double, you lose a model), since it emphasizes the fact that traveling through the Warp unprotected is usually a bad idea. They'll also add a few more units; I'd bet the clampacks will be a Chaplain (with more buffs than a normal Chaplain), although that would require a retcon I believe, and maybe a Prognosticar (again, this would require a retcon, but it feels more unique than a simple Librarian).

Overall, though, I'd hope for (and expect) them to become much more unique. Like A.T. said, in a lot of ways, they're just Ultramarines+1, which is kind of boring. They deserve better.

Worldeaters
08-06-2013, 10:01
IMO, Grey Knights are likely to get LESS powerful, not more.

Yep, less powerful, even less points, sell more miniatures 😜

Forsworn
08-06-2013, 19:15
Okay, HERE WE GO:

Overall:
- Balance the Psilencer.
- WS5 across the board. WS6 on Paladins
- Grey Knights lose the Force clause on Nemesis Weapons on their basic troopers. Characters, Paladins, Purifiers keep the AP values and "Force" rule. Varied AP values on Nemesis Weapons. All units gain +2S from Nemesis Weapons. Psybolts gain the "re-roll Invulnerable Saves" clause (I prefer them dropping in AP one point, rather than gaining a point of S).
- Better fluff on Purifiers (there is no such thing as LEVELS of incorruptibility :shifty: )
- Random Psychic Table as follows: 1- Might of Titan, 2 - Quicksilver, 3- Shrouding (make it the 3rd ed Shrouding Power), 4- New Power, 5- New Power, 6 - New Power; Primaris: Some sort of holy bolt w/ extra fun against Daemons.
- Storm Troopers AGAIN in the troops. Give them something sanctified in their options for rules/equipment and a buffed version of the old Hellgun. Terminators OUT of Troops.
- Take the "Supreme Grand Master" and SHOVE IT. Bring back the Daemonhunters Grey Knights fluff (especially organization and their histories). Take Kaldor Draigo and SHOVE HIM. Take Grandmaster Mordrak and SHOVE HIM. Have Justicar Thawn go the way of the Dodo. You know that guy Alaric that is awesome? Give us a model for him. Same thing for Inquisitor Valeria.
- NO. MORE. DAEMON. HOSTS.
- NO. MORE. DAEMON. BLADES.
- Change the fluff on the Hellrifle or take it out.
- Balance the Nemesis Warding Stave (Say, 5++ for the unit?), Change Halberds to "Furious Charge and Counter Attack". Hammer is fine. Falchions and Sword could probably use tweaking. Give Nemesis Force Weapons the "re-roll successful invulnerable saves". Make psy-shock come from HITS again. Note: the various bonuses from weapon types ONLY APPLY to characters and IC's. Normal Grey Knights have not had the training to unlock their weapon's full potential.
- Sanctified Blades (they work like current daemon weapons, except you can buy the bonuses from a list (made to order holy swords, woot woot) up to a limit).
- Balance Rad and Psychotroke grenades.
- Give all of our characters the ability to take powers from the GK discipline (BRB disciplines should be Librarian only). As opposed to "you come with Powers, but HERE, buy useless Mastery Levels on characters!"
- Remove Hammerhand as a Default Power on units. Give GK units the Primaris Power for the GK discipline, and no exchanging the power.
- No More Combat Tactics. Maybe something else to represent the GK's specific Battle Doctrine?
- No More "And They Shall Know No Fear". Just make them Fearless, like they used to be.
- The Aegis is fine, as is Brotherhood of Psykers.
- Characters that are not just Mary Sues. A Codex that is actually Grey Knights, as opposed to "Silver Ultramarines" (Cause Matt Ward doesn't understand what made the Ultramarines interesting beforehand, has an irrational like for them that he doesn't understand, and fails to understand that other people might LIKE variety in their armies). A Codex about the Dameonhunters and the Grey Knights, rather than "Lastest marine Codex + 1 w/ more 'Ultramarines'" (no, seriously, EFF YOU WARD".

Specific Units:
- Grand Master: I would have each of the Grand Strategy types have a different number of units. 1 for Spear of Light, 2 for Unyeilding Anvil, 3 for Hammer of Righteousness and Shield of Blades.
- Captain: Take him out of the HQ section and make him a Squad Leader for Paladins. Adjust stats accordingly. We could get a "Force Commander" unit to replace him as a "non-grandmaster" HQ choice. Then again, who DOESN'T take the grandmaster?
- Librarians: Well, I guess he's fine. personally, I'd like to see his stats be a LITTLE bit better.
- Brotherhood Champion: A second wound and a number of base attacks. Also, make him more than a one trick pony/fire and forget missile.
- Terminators: no longer a unit. Make an upgrade available to Strike Squads if you take a Grandmaster for an HQ.
- Strike Squads: upgradeable to Termiantors.
- Interceptor Squads no longer "Jump". They can use their Teleporter; when used, roll a D6. Depending on the result rolled, bad things can happen. Add to the roll based on distance jumped.
- Purgation Squads: Remove the "gets a 4+ Cover" clause from Astral Aim.
- Paladins: Buff The Holocaust power.
- Purifiers: recost them. Give them better fluff (say, Justicars/Knights who have lost their squad to a specific daemon, and have taken a vow to vanquish that particular daemon permanently). Remove the "counts for Combat Resolution" clause of Cleansing Flame.
- Dreadknight: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/443836.page Make it look like that.
- Draigo: NO. EFF THIS DAMN MARY SUE. Make a grandmaster character, but make him a compelling character who actually works to save the Imperium. As opposed to a delusional Mary Sue who is currently kneeling to Slaanesh in raptorous wonder while pretending to be a GIGANTIC BADASS (when in fact, he failed. HARD).
- Mordrak: Executed by the Inquisition. NO. REALLY. That's what would happen. :evilgrin:
- Stern: I like this guy. Much better character than Mary Sue and Grandmaster Ghostbusters.
- Crowe: Okay, this guy actually IS pretty badass. Let him join units, and I think he'd be fine. Remove his "Makes Purifiers Troops" though.
- Thawn: Would have been shot into the nearest star upon resurrecting. So. . . axed. Give us Alaric. He's awesome.
- Inquisitors: more variety in equipment. Have the Xenos/Hereticus/Malleus clause simply give/let them buy special rules, rather than the gear they can take (I doubt a Malleus Inquisitor would say no to a plamsa siphon if some Tau wanted to keep a Daemon Blade). A way to give them weapons from the Assassins. More fun gear to play around with. Needle Rifle and Heavy Needle Gun. Artificer Armor and Invulnerable Save available for our Inquisitors.
- Coteaz: An invul save would be nice. Also, I'd make it so he makes HIS retinue scoring, since we should get Storm Troopers back.
- Crazypantsoff: Meh. I think this guy's fine. Never really seen him, though.
- Valeria: GIVE. US. A. DAMN. MODEL.
- No More Monkeys. Maybe let us buy his "tinkering" for the unit so we can personalize our Retinues?


My hope is to return somewhat to the 3rd ed book with some options/powers and such. See the knights become individually more powerful, but balanced as an army. Each Grey Knight IS superior to even regular Space Marines (not on the level of Custodians, but definitely stronger than your average Astartes). Also, we would get new stuff. Not sure what it would be, but we'd get new stuff. :P

A.T.
08-06-2013, 22:13
- NO. MORE. DAEMON. HOSTS. / - NO. MORE. DAEMON. BLADES. / - Change the fluff on the Hellrifle or take it out.Back when it was a codex about the forces of the ordo malleus rather than codex:grey space marines these kinds of things made sense and allowed players to represent both the puritan and radical factions of the inquisition.
Pretty hard to bring back the 3rd ed "no grey knights in an army with daemonhosts" rule when the daemonhosts are feeble and the greyknights are the codex.

As for crazypants, he's a refugee from the witch hunters dex.

Grand Master Raziel
09-06-2013, 06:56
So, back when it was Codex: Daemonhunters, I really only wanted to see some tweaks. Frag grenades for the PAGKs. A 2-wound GK Captain. A GK Chaplain. Improved Shrouding. GK Bike Squadrons. Expanded non-GK choices, particularly for Fast Attack and Heavy Support, where there was nothing and a single crappy choice, respectively.

What Mat Ward gave us was a whole bunch of silly. GK Librarians, really? In an army where every single character was already a psyker? PAGKs with funny little tesla coils on the backpacks? Cooler GKTs than GKTs? What the heck, GW!

What I'd like to see is a return to Codex: Daemonhunters, with a few more choices in Fast Attack and Heavy Support to flesh it out. Do away with the silliness from Codex: Gray Knights. Get rid of GK Librarians cause that's just plain dumb. Return to the original model for the Nemesis weapons.

Herkamer63
09-06-2013, 14:49
what i would like to see, because alot of people , not everyone, complains about the fluff (i don't mind it at all), rewrite the fluff for the codex, take out the inquisitorial forces but keep all of the Grey Knight units and characters, and make a codex supplement for the ordo malleus and make it like the daemon hunter codex. that's what i'd do at least.

Forsworn
09-06-2013, 17:22
GK Librarians, really? In an army where every single character was already a psyker?
To be fair, this is one of the LEAST jarring aspects of Codex: Silver Ultramarine Mary Sues. We could always justify them by saying "they have such an aptitude for a specific discipline that they are trained in it to the exclusion of other avenues of psychic power". Make it so they can only take BRB disciplines and have up to lvl 3, while other characters are 1, can go up to 2, and use the GK discipline. Librarian could just, in the GK Codex, refer to specialist psykers? I dunno.


PAGKs with funny little tesla coils on the backpacks? Cooler GKTs than GKTs? What the heck, GW!

Meh, I don't mind the Tesla Coils all that much. Interceptors are now USEFUL thanks to that, after all. Before they were just PAGK who teleported in for no valid reason. On Paladins . . . meh? I wouldn't mind if they just became the GK Terminators. They also have mildly interesting fluff (unlike most of the fluff in the codex).


What I'd like to see is a return to Codex: Daemonhunters, with a few more choices in Fast Attack and Heavy Support to flesh it out. Do away with the silliness from Codex: Gray Knights. Get rid of GK Librarians cause that's just plain dumb. Return to the original model for the Nemesis weapons.

I agree. Can we PLEASE go back to "GK are a mysterious and secretive Chapter with distinct organization, tactics, and equipment"? Return to the time when GK were an awesome army with much cool in their fluff?

I don't mind SOME of the new things, but they definitely need to be reworked towards their older version. As they are, it's basically "Silver Ultramarines who can never be REAL Ultramarines and feel a burning shame because they can't be Ultramarines because SO SAYETH MAT WARD".

Menthak
09-06-2013, 21:21
Alot of people jumping on the bandwagon here (With good cause, i'll say)

Old Daemonhunters. Ordo Malleus. Not grey knights.

Oh and Jokaero. Take the Jokaero, make a warp jump, and leave a window open.

thor2006
09-06-2013, 21:36
Alot of people jumping on the bandwagon here (With good cause, i'll say)

Old Daemonhunters. Ordo Malleus. Not grey knights.

Oh and Jokaero. Take the Jokaero, make a warp jump, and leave a window open.
I like the Jokaero and their fluff. Why shouldn't Inquisitor not being able to take them?

Menthak
09-06-2013, 22:00
I like the Jokaero and their fluff. Why shouldn't Inquisitor not being able to take them?

What does the Imperium (specifically grey knights) hate? Xenos. Jokaero is a Xenos.
It's a monkey.
It's apparently more advanced than any other species.
It's a monkey.

IMHO one of the most stupid parts of 40k

Iron_Lord
09-06-2013, 22:08
It's an alien that happens to look, superficially, like a monkey.

Grey Knights don't specifically hate xenos- what they hate is daemons.

thor2006
09-06-2013, 22:15
What does the Imperium (specifically grey knights) hate? Xenos. Jokaero is a Xenos.
It's a monkey.
It's apparently more advanced than any other species.
It's a monkey.

IMHO one of the most stupid parts of 40k
Also digital weapons are used by anyone with money without fear of retribution and in the open despite being xeno goods. And without any sanction official or otherwise as any other xeno goods that would bring. And who constructs digital weapons jokaero.
Grey Knights do not hate xeno but Chaos/Deamons.

3eland
09-06-2013, 22:31
It's an alien that happens to look, superficially, like a monkey.

Grey Knights don't specifically hate xenos- what they hate is daemons.

This is true, and to elaborate... they don't "hate" anything, they are just "knowledgeable/greatly experienced" in that specific category.

Merqu
10-06-2013, 01:42
Right. simple thing. SORT OUT THE FLUFF!!! I can't stress this one enough! SORT! IT! OUT! After that, Make it so that Nemesis Force Weapons are tiered again. grunts have the weakest version, Grand Masters and Librarians have the best. I liked the 'All Grey Knights can roll randomly on the Grey Knight Power chart', but to expand on it, maybe each type of unit has a different primary power? and only librarian can go for the BRB powers. Termies back to elites (with the ability to get shifted to troop by a character/grandmaster), Storm Troopers back in as troops possibly?

Inquisitors should have access to literally EVERY standard piece of equipment that the Imperium armies have. Want to give your Inq dual Inferno Pistols and a Force Weapon and Psychic Hood and Termi Armour? go ahead, want to give him just a lasgun, Flak Armour and a bike? I have no idea why you'd want to do it but sure.... Relic Blade, Storm Shield and Psycannon with Artificer Armour? you betcha. They should have the LARGEST pool of upgrades in an IoM army going. Keep the Chapter specific stuff. So He has 3 weapon slots. 1 Ranged, 1 Melee and 1 optional extra (limited to pistols of all flavours and any melee weapon) Then armour choice (Flak, Combat, Power, Arty, Termi) Flak armour and Las weapons could be a first and decrease the cost :P Basic Gear being Combat Armour and a Bolt Pistol

Now interesting idea I had... Paladins and Purifiers can be taken in Elite OR HQ, but not both. Change the Squad size of both to as is for Elite and 1-5 for HQ. I like the idea of, in a Grey Knight army you don't need a dedicated 'force commander' because of how highly trained they are individually. Yes still have the option for the current HQ choices too... except have a certain Terminator special character met a very messy end... his model would make a very good Generic Grand Master (With shield) In my opinion :P

Also I think smidge of a point increase and NO skyfire in the army (or maybe an upgrade for a single type of unit like Dreadknight, Venerable Dreadnought, or Purgation Squads). The idea is that they should have a big weakness inherent in their army, and as discovered last edition, model count wasn't necessarily it. If Anti Flyer is it though have a physic power that grounds FMC though.

I can't think of much else.

Oh and I have no issue with the monkey :) it's fun!

MajorWesJanson
10-06-2013, 03:54
The Jokaero looking like an orangutang is a lot more amusing to me after reading the Discworld books.

Draigo is not going away, especially now they have a model for him.
My thoughts-

USRs:
WS 5 across the board.
Replace ATKSNKF with Fearless.
Must accept/issue challenges against a unit that contains a daemon, psyker, or model from Codex CSM.

Wargear:
Nemesis weapons lose Force except on characters (sergeants, captains, ect)
Nemesis swords give boost to Invul saves in close combat or a 6+ if they don't have any. Hammers are hammers. Falchions grant extra attack (for being a pair) and shred. Halberds grant +1I, +2 on the charge. Warding stave is +2 Str and AP4, and grants a 3++ while in close combat.
Remove Psychotroke grenades and plasma siphon entirely.
Psybolts become a per model cost for troops, say 2 points per. Psybolts are priced on vehicles differently- Rhinos get them for 5 points. Dreadnoughts, Storm Talons and Razorbacks get them for 15. Storm Raven and Land Raider variants get them for 20.
Personal teleporter makes the unit jump, but may choose to move 3d6 in the assault phase, but on a roll including a doubles for distance, takes a perils of the warp.
Give Inquisitors access to power fields, displacer fields, conversion fields from DA codex.
Make Rad, Blind, Stasis, and Haywire grenades Inquisitor issue rather than general issue.
Add locator beacon option for dreadnoughts and land raiders.
Psylencers are S4 AP- but targets must reroll sucessful invul saves.
Hellrifle loses rending and gains sniper, and causes Perils of the Warp on a roll of 6 to wound.
Null rod is no longer a weapon, but a one-use wargear that can either ignore a perils or add 2 to a deny the witch check.
Add some Xenos wargear to the Ordos Xenos inquisitor- Tau Pulse Rifle, Dark Eldar Splinter Rifle, Eldar Harlequins Kiss, Ork Kustom Mega Blaster

Powers:
Split psychic powers into 2 charts with 3 powers each- Lesser and Greater Daemonology. Squads can only take lesser, captains, chaplains, grand masters and librarians can take from both.
Lesser- Hammerhand primaris, Dark Excommunication, Warp Quake, Astral Aim (ignore line of sight for shooting, within 12" ignores cover as well)
Greater- Holocaust primaris, quicksilver, Banishment (see zone of banishment power, but single target focused witchfire) and cleansing flame (2 points)

FOC changes:
Make Brotherhood Champion a paladin upgrade, rather than a HQ character.
Add GK Chaplain. Nemesis Crozaeus- +2 Strength, AP4, AP2 vs Daemons and psykers. Grants hatred to the unit. When charging a unit with a psyker or daemon, grants furious charge. When charged by a unit with a psyker or daemons, grants counterattack.
Add Storm Talon in FA with option for psybolt ammo and can take mind strike missiles for the same price as skyhammer ones.
Move Storm Raven to Heavy Support
Add Grey Knight Jetbikes to Fast Attack
Add librarian upgrade for venerable dreadnoughts- grants it mastery level 2 and a roll on the greater or lesser chart.
Add Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as a troop choice, but may not count as your compulsory troop choices unless you take an Inquisitor in HQ.
Make Crowe an upgrade character for purifiers, making that squad scoring.
Draigo doesn't make paladins troops, but makes them scoring.
Valkyrie (not Vendetta) as a Dedicated transport option for an Inquisitor.

Menthak
10-06-2013, 12:19
The Jokaero looking like an orangutang is a lot more amusing to me after reading the Discworld books.

Draigo is not going away, especially now they have a model for him.
My thoughts-

USRs:
WS 5 across the board.
Replace ATKSNKF with Fearless.
Must accept/issue challenges against a unit that contains a daemon, psyker, or model from Codex CSM.

Wargear:
Nemesis weapons lose Force except on characters (sergeants, captains, ect)
Nemesis swords give boost to Invul saves in close combat or a 6+ if they don't have any. Hammers are hammers. Falchions grant extra attack (for being a pair) and shred. Halberds grant +1I, +2 on the charge. Warding stave is +2 Str and AP4, and grants a 3++ while in close combat.
Remove Psychotroke grenades and plasma siphon entirely.
Psybolts become a per model cost for troops, say 2 points per. Psybolts are priced on vehicles differently- Rhinos get them for 5 points. Dreadnoughts, Storm Talons and Razorbacks get them for 15. Storm Raven and Land Raider variants get them for 20.
Personal teleporter makes the unit jump, but may choose to move 3d6 in the assault phase, but on a roll including a doubles for distance, takes a perils of the warp.
Give Inquisitors access to power fields, displacer fields, conversion fields from DA codex.
Make Rad, Blind, Stasis, and Haywire grenades Inquisitor issue rather than general issue.
Add locator beacon option for dreadnoughts and land raiders.
Psylencers are S4 AP- but targets must reroll sucessful invul saves.
Hellrifle loses rending and gains sniper, and causes Perils of the Warp on a roll of 6 to wound.
Null rod is no longer a weapon, but a one-use wargear that can either ignore a perils or add 2 to a deny the witch check.
Add some Xenos wargear to the Ordos Xenos inquisitor- Tau Pulse Rifle, Dark Eldar Splinter Rifle, Eldar Harlequins Kiss, Ork Kustom Mega Blaster

Powers:
Split psychic powers into 2 charts with 3 powers each- Lesser and Greater Daemonology. Squads can only take lesser, captains, chaplains, grand masters and librarians can take from both.
Lesser- Hammerhand primaris, Dark Excommunication, Warp Quake, Astral Aim (ignore line of sight for shooting, within 12" ignores cover as well)
Greater- Holocaust primaris, quicksilver, Banishment (see zone of banishment power, but single target focused witchfire) and cleansing flame (2 points)

FOC changes:
Make Brotherhood Champion a paladin upgrade, rather than a HQ character.
Add GK Chaplain. Nemesis Crozaeus- +2 Strength, AP4, AP2 vs Daemons. Grants hatred to the unit. When charging a unit with a psyker or daemon, grants furious charge. When charged by a unit with a psyker or daemons, grants counterattack.
Add Storm Talon in FA with option for psybolt ammo and can take mind strike missiles for the same price as skyhammer ones.
Move Storm Raven to Heavy Support
Add Grey Knight Jetbikes to Fast Attack
Add librarian upgrade for venerable dreadnoughts- grants it mastery level 2 and a roll on the greater or lesser chart.
Add Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as a troop choice, but may not count as your compulsory troop choices unless you take an Inquisitor in HQ.
Make Crowe an upgrade character for purifiers, making that squad scoring.
Draigo doesn't make paladins troops, but makes them scoring.
Valkyrie (not Vendetta) as a Dedicated transport option for an Inquisitor.

One small nitpick here.


Add GK Chaplain. Nemesis Crozaeus- +2 Strength, AP4, AP2 vs Daemons. Grants hatred to the unit. When charging a unit with a psyker or daemon, grants furious charge. When charged by a unit with a psyker or daemons, grants counterattack.

I like the idea of this guy, but what would be the point of AP2 against Daemons? Only against Obliterators, Possessed and Warp Talons would it have any effect?

Iron_Lord
10-06-2013, 12:50
This is true, and to elaborate... they don't "hate" anything, they are just "knowledgeable/greatly experienced" in that specific category.

Well, there is their mantra in the Grey Knights novels- part of it was:

"I am the hammer! I am the hate! I am the woes of daemonkind!"

dokfm
10-06-2013, 13:36
I like the idea of this guy, but what would be the point of AP2 against Daemons? Only against Obliterators, Possessed and Warp Talons would it have any effect?
And Bloodthirsters! They have Warpforged Armor, remember.

3eland
10-06-2013, 14:54
Well, there is their mantra in the Grey Knights novels- part of it was:

"I am the hammer! I am the hate! I am the woes of daemonkind!"

Apologies, I meant the Inquisitors themselves. :D

Iron_Lord
10-06-2013, 15:07
true. Though they tend to grow to hate their common adversaries the more they get to know about them.

I think it was Kryptmaan who said "the more I learn about the Tyranids, the more I hate them- and I hate them because they are incapable of good honest hatred"

Cheeslord
10-06-2013, 17:04
And Bloodthirsters! They have Warpforged Armor, remember.

which is 3+. Daemons have no access to 2+ armor as that would be overpowered.

Mark.

Losing Command
10-06-2013, 17:34
I hope that the new GK codex will make the GK themselves and the differences between the units more distinct. Now they are ultramarines with stormbolters, forceweapons and psychic tricks, and all the units feel the same in the end (same wargear, little to no difference in stats, only 1 or 2 other/extra special rules) What they should be like :
-Very good at clearing out lots of infantery and the occasional Monsterous creature at range and in CC
-Disruptive to daemons and psykers
-Great in on-the-spot unit delivery, but ...
-Low mobility outside of that
-Have little to only makeshift anti-(heavy)vehicle potential
-Few vehicles themselves
-Small numbers (and no more Dreadnought spam ! Did everybody forget the fluff about GK dreadnoughts ?!)
-Any reason to use a psilencer. Just even a little one would be nice, right now it's worse then a stormbolter ...

But I fear the codex will just make them even cheaper and more like other loyalist chapters with a random psychic power table :(

Herkamer63
10-06-2013, 20:32
i doubt they'll take out the "force" rule on elites. troops, fast, and heavy, with the exception of possibly the dreadknight as it is a paladin piloting it, and a dreadnaught, i can see the rule being taken out. where justicars would be the only ones to have it in those sections. keep the special effects on the nemesis weapons, though they would possibly need to change or add something to the the hammer and the falchions. or change all of them. something else they could do is they can take out the special character inquistors, keep the generic ones and all of their henchmen, except the daemon hosts, then as a supplement for the ordo malleus, put coteaz in there and inquistor lords. storm troopers, or something similar to it, should be troops, daemon hosts elites, and fill in the blank. of coarse taking something out of the grey knight codex, new units would have to be added in, so something would need to be added in. jetbikes would be cool. i would even say similar to a storm talon. that's all i have for now.

dokfm
10-06-2013, 22:07
which is 3+. Daemons have no access to 2+ armor as that would be overpowered.
Oh, right, they're all power weapons anyway...
Yeah, you're probably right then. AP 2 is overkill in that case.

Borgnine
10-06-2013, 23:23
Except that AP2 has use against daemonic vehicles. Baaaaaaaaaaaam

MajorWesJanson
11-06-2013, 01:15
Except that AP2 has use against daemonic vehicles. Baaaaaaaaaaaam

Indeed. I forgot about daemons not having armor saves really. The vehicle thing is a good point, but to make it a bit more useful, I changed the idea to include psykers as well.

Forsworn
11-06-2013, 21:33
i doubt they'll take out the "force" rule on elites. troops, fast, and heavy, with the exception of possibly the dreadknight as it is a paladin piloting it, and a dreadnaught, i can see the rule being taken out. where justicars would be the only ones to have it in those sections. keep the special effects on the nemesis weapons,

Personally, I'd like to see everyone except Justicars, Characters, Paladins (and maybe Purifiers) lose the AP value and Force rule. Basic troops only get +2S from their Force Weapons. The ones that keep AP and Force get the various special rules from their weapons.

I already said what I wanted previously, but on weapons:
- Hammer: is fine.
- Falchions: could use some tweaking. An extra attack isn't all that great when it's only packing AP3.
- Sword: Considering it's useless on PAGK and only useful in Assault for Terminators, I wouldn't mind Swords being useful for something in the next book.
- Halberds: Fix these. I think that Furious Charge and Counter Attack would be very good and balanced.
- Staff: I'd definitely like a way to have the protection extend to the unit. That would also help with the price tag. Say, 35 points for a 4++ on the squad?

Also, give them "re-roll Invulnerable Saves" on their Nemesis Weapons. And True Grit (get to use Storm Bolter and other 2-handed shooting weapons as pistols in assaults).

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
11-06-2013, 23:16
What does the Imperium (specifically grey knights) hate? Xenos. Jokaero is a Xenos.
It's a monkey.
It's apparently more advanced than any other species.
It's a monkey.

IMHO one of the most stupid parts of 40k
They have absolutely no reason to join the Grey Knight ever. But they are exotic, strange, rare, very hard to use right and potentially extremely powerful : they fit perfectly with Inquisitors, especially radicals. Also note that they are not advanced. They are animals. Just like grox. Grox are alien animals, but they are considered totally okay in the Imperium. Jokaero are just very strange animals because of their instinctive and incomprehensible link with technology. But they act relying purely on instinct, not understanding what they do and why they do it. That's the reason why you can't choose the upgrade you'll get in the end.

maze ironheart
11-06-2013, 23:21
That will be a long time off grey knights getting a new codex .

Herkamer63
12-06-2013, 16:09
Personally, I'd like to see everyone except Justicars, Characters, Paladins (and maybe Purifiers) lose the AP value and Force rule. Basic troops only get +2S from their Force Weapons. The ones that keep AP and Force get the various special rules from their weapons.

I already said what I wanted previously, but on weapons:
- Hammer: is fine.
- Falchions: could use some tweaking. An extra attack isn't all that great when it's only packing AP3.
- Sword: Considering it's useless on PAGK and only useful in Assault for Terminators, I wouldn't mind Swords being useful for something in the next book.
- Halberds: Fix these. I think that Furious Charge and Counter Attack would be very good and balanced.
- Staff: I'd definitely like a way to have the protection extend to the unit. That would also help with the price tag. Say, 35 points for a 4++ on the squad?

Also, give them "re-roll Invulnerable Saves" on their Nemesis Weapons. And True Grit (get to use Storm Bolter and other 2-handed shooting weapons as pistols in assaults).

I would say give falchions shred or re-roll failed hits along with the extra attack. Halberds I can see being the same, however, maybe make them a lance weapon, but as you suggested I can see that as well. i wouldn't know what else they can do with swords. i would like to see storm bolters count as an additional close combat weapon as originally thought by some people. +2S should make a return, imo. at least on termies. finally they would need to change some of the rules when fighting daemons in cc with the weapons. maybe like making the daemon player re-roll daemonic instability since all ,but one, daemon in that codex do not have Eternal Warrior anymore.

Konovalev
12-06-2013, 16:53
just very strange animals because of their instinctive and incomprehensible link with technology. But they act relying purely on instinct, not understanding what they do and why they do it.

That description is also valid for a mekboy, how many people would be ok with the idea of an ork tagging along with some inquisitors to tweak their weapons? Personally, I don't think monkey smiths belong with Inq at all, they seem more like a unit you would find attached to a Tau cadre. I think an insane techpriest who has gotten carried away with experimentations and self modification would fit a radical inquisitor better.

Individual8580
12-06-2013, 17:15
It would have been mauled, savaged and pulped so hard by the Nerf Bat that it would be unregonizable. I giggled a bit at these wishlists. AP3 force weapons which give an extra attack are bad now? Good lord. :wtf:

I imagine it would be something like the DA codex but everything's somewhat fancier and way more expensive.

They'd also have the obligatory medicore fighter/bomber combi kit.

Chapters Unwritten
12-06-2013, 17:21
I really don't think they are going to update this one for a good long time. They are solid allies and are popular kits already. Plus it clearly was written for 6th, with early "Brotherhood of Psykers" stuff and whatnot. This and the Necrons will be staying for a good long time I wager.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
12-06-2013, 17:26
That description is also valid for a mekboy
Well, not really. Yeah, it's the same kind of process, except that the Jokaero turns it up to eleven. First, the mekboy have all the abilities of a normal Ork : it can talk, understand relatively abstract concept like strategy, and it has a much better understanding about what it does. A mekboy won't create a skorcha when it actually wants to create a shokk attack gun. Because the mekboy knows it wants a skorcha. The Jokaero can't talk, don't understand any complex or abstract concept, and all it knows is that it wants something to kill someone. It will do something that will likely be offensive, but without any idea about what it's doing.

Forsworn
12-06-2013, 19:00
It would have been mauled, savaged and pulped so hard by the Nerf Bat that it would be unregonizable. I giggled a bit at these wishlists. AP3 force weapons which give an extra attack are bad now? Good lord. :wtf:.

Comparatively? Yes. Halberd is AP3 with +2I. you can go before ELDAR ASPECT WARRIORS with Halberds. Which are cheaper. It's also bad compared to the Nemesis Thunder Hammer, which is cheaper as well. The Stave is the only one that is more expensive. Frankly, for a 2++ in CC, I understand it being more expensive. Oh, and it's also ridiculously awesome (much more than the Falchions). The sword is free (more points for other things) and AP3 as well.

So yes. When ever other option is cheaper (often by a good margin) and has the same AP and Strength, it is bad. The only exception is one per squad and so good that it's worth it.

Individual8580
13-06-2013, 05:32
Comparatively? Yes. Halberd is AP3 with +2I. you can go before ELDAR ASPECT WARRIORS with Halberds. Which are cheaper. It's also bad compared to the Nemesis Thunder Hammer, which is cheaper as well. The Stave is the only one that is more expensive. Frankly, for a 2++ in CC, I understand it being more expensive. Oh, and it's also ridiculously awesome (much more than the Falchions). The sword is free (more points for other things) and AP3 as well.

So yes. When ever other option is cheaper (often by a good margin) and has the same AP and Strength, it is bad. The only exception is one per squad and so good that it's worth it.

OK, so yeah, Nemesis Snowflake Weapons are all crazy and over the top, but why should the solution be to give a Shredding cherry on the top? Why not just make them regular power weapons of their respective type? They'd still rock face.


Turning Nemesis Halbers into regular Power Spears would be the biggest troll in GW history though, so maybe give the silversticks a bit of mercy.

Forsworn
13-06-2013, 17:00
OK, so yeah, Nemesis Snowflake Weapons are all crazy and over the top, but why should the solution be to give a Shredding cherry on the top? Why not just make them regular power weapons of their respective type? They'd still rock face.


Turning Nemesis Halbers into regular Power Spears would be the biggest troll in GW history though, so maybe give the silversticks a bit of mercy.

Honestly, I think that they should just be:
+2S on basic Grey Knights.
+2S, AP value for Purifiers and Paladins (4 on the Stave, 2 on the Hammer, 3 on Falchions/Swords/Halberds).
+2S, Force clause, an AP value (as above), and special rules for Characters (Shred on Falchions (which give +1A from being 2 weapons), Counter-attack and Furious Charge on Halberds, Thunder Hammer rules on Hammer, 5++ (or 4++ maybe? I CAN DREAM!!) on the unit for Stave, Rending and +1 Invuln Save from Sword (no Invuln; models without one get a 5++).

Add in True Grit (Models can use Stormbolters as pistols for an additional CC attack) and DONE.

This, plus the WS5 across the board, would make GK weapons far more balanced (I'd rather have more wounds to save against than just be dead from the attacks, personally) than they are. The Super Special Nemesis Snowflakes are only for Grandmasters, Captains, Librarians, Inquisitors, Champions. They should get some bonus to represent their superior abilities to your basic knight. I'm okay with Characters and such getting those benefits.

Carlosophy
13-06-2013, 21:08
Grey knights are too rare to be an any in themselves, especially one stuck fighting orks or tyranids.

Codex: Inquisition or gtfo. Roll them up with sisters, make all their units elites choices with purifiers et al reduced to a squad upgrade rather than a unit in themselves then buff the heck out of them with Fearless, WS5, 2A, 2W and psychic wazoo.
Give the army a massive amount of 'imperium' and leave them be.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-06-2013, 21:27
Grey knights are too rare to be an any in themselves
[…]
Roll them up with sisters
Sisters are not to be any in themselves, they are a full-fledge army that have no reason to be linked in any way to Grey Knight. Roll them up with Space Marines. They'll fit in fine :P.

Losing Command
13-06-2013, 22:43
Grey Knights actually fight most of their battles against Daemons alone or isolated, either because everybody else was dead already before they arrived or to avoid advanced knowledge about the existence of daemons and their followers, and about the GK themselves, to spread. Only when there is no possible way to solve a daemonic infestation in time without help do they call in other armies (which either get killed afterwards or mindbleached(aka: only half of them die)) I am still of the opinion that, outside of Apocalypse battles, GK shouldn't have been allowed to ally with anybody else (and yes, I do own a GK army) :p

Herkamer63
14-06-2013, 15:33
Don't mean to be rude, not my intention, but the topic of this thread is what a 6th ed grey knight codex would look like. Not if they should be rolled up into an inquisition codex or what have you. That's a separate issue (read the opening post). Please stay on topic. Thank you.

Azulthar
15-06-2013, 08:11
- Increase cost of everything in the codex by about +10%. Elite suits them. I'd rather see their point cost raised to match their current power, then their power lowered to match their current point cost.
- I find the internal balance of the codex pretty decent actually, compared to most codices out there.
- Bring back a version of the Daemonic Infestation rule to balance play against Daemons.

JeffJedi
16-06-2013, 08:26
Something like this:
172457

El_Machinae
16-06-2013, 13:30
The smaller Dreadknight weapons could be co-axial!

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
16-06-2013, 13:43
Something like this:
172457
:D Awesome !

Reflex
16-06-2013, 22:42
Didnt mr ward say at one point they didnt appropriately play test the codex first time around? Thats why it was a bit higher then the normal curve.

comradeda
17-06-2013, 07:46
I recently had a discussion about what I'd change about the 40k armies and fluff in general. We're currently going through a phase of thematic reconstruction (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReconstructionTVtropes[/URL]), and it would be dialing that back but also providing faction "themes" and differentiation.
Right now, it just seems like Grey Knights are better space marines. In my mind, I'd make Space Marines are more militaristic force (while still being religious to some extent, this IS 40k), whereas Grey Knights would be more monastic and gung ho in combat.
The reflections of this in fluff and tabletop would be things like GKs only use their explosive bolts, aiming for the utter annihilation of their opponents, whereas marines could get different sorts of ammunition with explosive bolts as the standard. Stuff like that. Regular Space Marines, while having their "chosen enemy", would have a particular military objective of strategic or tactical strikes and extreme force concentration.

Sisters of battle took me a bit of figuring out from a "thematically different" sense, but eventually I got the idea that they could have squads of frenzied (drugged up and fanatical) civilians hording into combat, giving the idea of desperation the Imperium's "Win at all costs" attitude out of necessity.

Uh... So grey knights!

Thrax
17-06-2013, 17:05
We retained most of the older rules such as nemesis weapons being +2 strength, WS 5, and the Shrouding returned as 4" x unit Leadership. We gave Preferred Enemy to both GK's and demons or possessed models when fighting each other. Instead of demonic infestation we use something called "divine summoning" to show that some kind of demonic influence must be in play for the GK to bother deploying, so a single enemy unit is enhanced by a roll on a table:
1a) +1 Initiative.......................1b) Counterattack
2a) +1 Attacks.........................2b) Infiltrate
3a) +1 Toughness ...................3b) Furious Charge
4a) 5++ Invulnerable save .......4b) Fearlessness
5a) Fleet ................................5b) Preferred Enemy
6a) Feel No Pain ..................... 6b) Rending attacks

This way the opponent doesn't need to bring any demonic models to enjoy the fruits of the old Demonic Infestation. Simply roll and place a counter with the unit. The GK gets a victory point if they destroy the unit, the enemy scores if the marker is not recovered.

Daenerys Targaryen
19-06-2013, 00:15
- Bring back a version of the Daemonic Infestation rule to balance play against Daemons.
Or rather, don't make them a complete automatic hard-counter to Daemons in the first place... But knowing Ward, if he gets to eventually re-write GK's, he'll give them a Relic banner that gives the unit carrying it a 2++ vs all Psychic attacks and attacks made by models with the Daemon USR... All for just 50pts!

gLOBS
19-06-2013, 15:09
They are going to have a "Knight Lord" in which a Grey Knight climbs into a Tactical Dreadnaught Suit which climbs into a Dread Knight suit which will finally climb into a even larger Knight Lord suit.

Of course the Knight Lord will be WraithKnight sized, have the word knight in it and probably have the ability to subvert the rules and remove from play monstrous creatures with a single hit with no saves.

Herkamer63
19-06-2013, 17:56
I know that the above post is a farce, but it would be cool to see at the very least a special character in dreadknight armor, imo. Anyway, as far as an author, I can Jeremy vetock writing it. So far, I have enjoyed the codices he has been involved in. Plus I think he has shown that he can handle writing a marine codex through DA codex Balanced, but not under or overpowered. So far, however, it's only been vetock and Phil Kelly. I'm curious to see who the future writers, if any, will be coming forth. For now, at least, vetock would be my best bet.

El_Machinae
20-06-2013, 03:04
They are going to have a "Knight Lord" in which a Grey Knight climbs into a Tactical Dreadnaught Suit which climbs into a Dread Knight suit which will finally climb into a even larger Knight Lord suit.

Of course the Knight Lord will be WraithKnight sized, have the word knight in it and probably have the ability to subvert the rules and remove from play monstrous creatures with a single hit with no saves.

I think you're forgetting the secret sub-order of Grey Knights who have to kill Grey Knights whenever they need to protect the secret of their existence.

gLOBS
20-06-2013, 15:26
I forgot to mention that it will be more pure than purifiers who are more pure than the 100% pure regular Grey Knights.

Konovalev
20-06-2013, 17:26
I forgot to mention that it will be more pure than purifiers who are more pure than the 100% pure regular Grey Knights.

GK will get a Tau Ethereal special character. Afterall, how can any human be as pure and resistant to Chaos as a creature with virtually no warp presence to begin with? In fact, perhaps Kaldor Draigo was just a pseudonym for Aun'Shi!

But seriously though, it would be cool to see a dreadknight special character. I'd also like to see a harsh penalty for allowing Crowe to die considering he carries the most dangerous corruptive weapon in the universe or some such. Maybe counting his death as an additional VP.

htsmithium
20-06-2013, 18:09
oddly enough iv always thought of halberds as a more defensive weapon rather than as an offensive one. with that in mind, one change I would propose is keeping the +2 iniative only if the grey knights are charged to represent them bracing to receive it and be at I4 normally, or maybe even I3 to represent them swinging a giant stick in close combat against people with swords.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
20-06-2013, 19:15
I'd also like to see a harsh penalty for allowing Crowe to die considering he carries the most dangerous corruptive weapon in the universe or some such. Maybe counting his death as an additional VP.
I'd rather like he leaves a token, and any enemy model that come base-to-base to this token… turns into a daemon prince (or actually, is possessed by some) ! That would be pretty fun and fluffy !

Losing Command
20-06-2013, 20:51
I think that Crowe should be even more killy in close combat and more resilient, but when he dies, you lose the game, no matter what. Through your tactical ineptitude (or bad dice luck :angel:) you managed to lose the most dangerous blade known in this galaxy - saying you 'won the battle' after that and get away with it when reporting to your Grand Master should not be possible.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
20-06-2013, 22:19
“But Grand Master, I didn't loose it. See, I was able to retrieve it. And I took great care of it. This sword is indeed powerful IWILLBATHINYOURBLOOD!!!! *dakkadakkachopchopsproutch*”

Herkamer63
21-06-2013, 13:39
I think that Crowe should be even more killy in close combat and more resilient, but when he dies, you lose the game, no matter what. Through your tactical ineptitude (or bad dice luck :angel:) you managed to lose the most dangerous blade known in this galaxy - saying you 'won the battle' after that and get away with it when reporting to your Grand Master should not be possible.
i would say make him ap3, a 3rd wound, and WS9. his rending attacks where right where they need to be, imo. maybe +1 strength because it is a daemon weapon.

MajorWesJanson
21-06-2013, 13:54
I'd rather like he leaves a token, and any enemy model that come base-to-base to this token… turns into a daemon prince (or actually, is possessed by some) ! That would be pretty fun and fluffy !

Or if Crowe dies, he drops a token which becomes an additional 2 point objective for CSM and Daemon forces if they take it.

Konovalev
21-06-2013, 16:29
i would say make him ap3, a 3rd wound, and WS9. his rending attacks where right where they need to be, imo. maybe +1 strength because it is a daemon weapon.

Well the idea behind Crowes rules is that he doesn't tap into the daemon weapons potential in any way. He simply uses its physical properties as a sword - ie a sharp hunk of metal. That's why his combat abilities are rather naff compared to generic champions, and he's not allowed in a squad because that squad could/would be corrupted by the lure of swords power.

Herkamer63
21-06-2013, 16:41
Well the idea behind Crowes rules is that he doesn't tap into the daemon weapons potential in any way. He simply uses its physical properties as a sword - ie a sharp hunk of metal. That's why his combat abilities are rather naff compared to generic champions, and he's not allowed in a squad because that squad could/would be corrupted by the lure of swords power.
it's just a thought to make him better. plus they could come up with something saying like he does not use it's true power but the sword is sharp enough to cut through heavy armor or something along that line. again it's just a thought. i think he can be better overall, though making purifiers troops is good.

Brother Asmodeus
21-06-2013, 17:03
More pew-pew!

DoomVendor
22-06-2013, 22:57
If you honestly look at tournament results grey knights aren't as broken anymore. Since the paladin FAQ nerf to infantry paladins aren't nearly as broken as before when each had look out sirs IMO. Grey knights are still definitely good but not broken as they were before recent codex updates. As for the next GK codex it all depends on if GW listens to it's customers. They will probably take the option of making grey knights less elite and more cool toys in order to get money as mentioned before.

KR3LL
22-06-2013, 23:37
If you honestly look at tournament results grey knights aren't as broken anymore. Since the paladin FAQ nerf to infantry paladins aren't nearly as broken as before when each had look out sirs IMO. Grey knights are still definitely good but not broken as they were before recent codex updates. As for the next GK codex it all depends on if GW listens to it's customers. They will probably take the option of making grey knights less elite and more cool toys in order to get money as mentioned before.

To me, draigowing was never tough. So few models.

But Grey Knights are still crazy good. Strike Squads and nemesis dreadknights shunting are crazy good in an addition of foot slogging ruling this edition. All their shooting is way good. Psy ammo all over the place. Entire squads of force weapons. Auto-win button against daemons.