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skeletal
10-06-2013, 01:22
Hello folks,

I don't know about others but I'm finding myself trying to think up really cool things to bring the Wood Elves into a new era of Warhammer.I would not only like to see Wood Elves get abit darker as some sort of mad celtic woodland warriors but also see a option to do full forest spirit armies.I'd love to see the return of some old favourites like Beastmasters.I was thinking this could be modeled around the Dark Eldar Beastmaster.He could be mounted on a Eagle with the choices of hounds(kymera),war hawks(razorwings) or bear(clawed fiend).I'd love to know if anyone else would think this would work and what sort of other general wishlisting the wood like to see from Woodies.Old characters?Stag Rider?Chariots?More Forest spirits?

zoggin-eck
10-06-2013, 02:01
Bringing back beastmasters would be a great addition, the old models are still pretty cool. I'd love to see some forest critters that aren't tree spirits. So long as they make bears, I think lots of people would be happy!

(Um, why don't you hit the space bar at the end of a sentence? It makes it pretty awkward to read.)

Veshnakar
10-06-2013, 02:05
I was actually kind of bummed when I saw the skycutter for high elves, as a chariot like that would be SO much more fitting for wood elves.

Phoenix Blaze
10-06-2013, 03:11
I too am hoping the next Wood Elf release pushes the feral aspect of the Asrai. The pagan/Celtic/druid aspect seen with the Wild Riders in Orion is spot on how I want the entire faction to be!

As for a beastmaster, yes! It'd be excellent if they had an innate connection to the beasts rather than "I've got a whip, do what I say".

Kakapo42
10-06-2013, 03:44
Actually, I'd rather not have them be made darker or more feral. I do not want my Asrai feral at all, and will be very unhappy if that's what happens. They may live in a magical forest and mercilessly slaughter any interlopers, and they may be mystically tied into the seasons, but they are still elves at heart. I actually really really like their background just as it is, it's really dark enough already with all the faerie allusions in it.

If they really must add to the background, then I'd prefer they went down the Faerie/dark fairytale route more than the pagan/feral route.

As for unit additions, I'm actually pretty happy just as they are. Rework some of the rules a bit and I'm sorted. A new Spellsinger/Spellweaver model that doesn't have blown-up 'super-saiyan' style hair wouldn't go amiss though...

Incidentally, you already CAN make all-forest spirit lists with the current army book. Treeman ancients and Branchwraiths for your lords and heroes, Dryads for core, Treekin for specials and Treemen for rares. It's quite light on the shooting but it's very doable.

Charistoph
10-06-2013, 06:39
If they really must add to the background, then I'd prefer they went down the Faerie/dark fairytale route more than the pagan/feral route.

There's room for all in the Wood Elf Lore and models. On one side you have the basic Elves that are working for survival (Glade Guard, Eternal Guard, Waywatchers?). Then you have the Forest Spirits and the Elves who become lost on their paths (Dryads, Treekin, Wild Riders). Then there are those who become part of the forest, but are closer to the animals than the others, like the Alter Kindred and Warhawk Riders.

For a Beastmasters unit, we could easily be looking at an archer and/or spear unit mixed with wolves and bears. The elves would be more leaders and guides to the beasts rather than tamers or drivers, speaking to them in their own language, etc.

popisdead
12-06-2013, 19:51
There was a rumour that WE are getting Beastmasters back. I look forward to it to use my classic Beastmasters.

Spiney Norman
13-06-2013, 15:07
I was actually kind of bummed when I saw the skycutter for high elves, as a chariot like that would be SO much more fitting for wood elves.

Sorry to be contradictory, but isn't Athel Loren landlocked? I can't imagine a flying chariot that can only land in water would make much sense in an army which lives in a landlocked forest with no substantial bodies of water in it. I mean do you expect every skycutter in Loren to land and take off from the crystal mere?

Beast packs would be a cool and exciting way to take Wood elves, and bring back the zoats!!!

Azazyll
13-06-2013, 15:26
Sorry to be contradictory, but isn't Athel Loren landlocked? I can't imagine a flying chariot that can only land in water would make much sense in an army which lives in a landlocked forest with no substantial bodies of water in it. I mean do you expect every skycutter in Loren to land and take off from the crystal mere?

Beast packs would be a cool and exciting way to take Wood elves, and bring back the zoats!!!

I don't mean to be rude, Norman, but it's a magic flying chariot. Who says it touches down at all? Maybe it just hovers. Where the giant pigeon on the front goes when this happens is a good question. He's certainly not a water bird - I've never seen a raptor bobbing along on the water.

I still feel it was better for HE however.

Rakariel
13-06-2013, 16:19
Maybe the bird is just chilling when the chariot hovers, like on a children`s swing? :D

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2013, 16:41
I can't imagine a flying chariot that can only land in water would make much sense in an army which lives in a landlocked forest
:rolleyes: Yes because that was exactly the reason why he wanted Wood Elves to get it.

Nothing to do with it being a flying chariot pulled by a big eagle/warhawk.
No, it was definitely the fact that it can only land on water.



As for the actual topic at hand...
Wood Elves could definitely use beastmasters in the army as an additional troop type, along with things like Forest Swarms, both regular and Forest Spirit types.
Mixed unit type, on foot with various beasts available to purchase, basically like the dark eldar ones from 40k.

Hopefully they'll get that rather than some monstrous cavalry unit (they already have warhawk riders as MC anyway!).

Spiney Norman
13-06-2013, 18:10
:rolleyes: Yes because that was exactly the reason why he wanted Wood Elves to get it.

Nothing to do with it being a flying chariot pulled by a big eagle/warhawk.
No, it was definitely the fact that it can only land on water.



As for the actual topic at hand...
Wood Elves could definitely use beastmasters in the army as an additional troop type, along with things like Forest Swarms, both regular and Forest Spirit types.
Mixed unit type, on foot with various beasts available to purchase, basically like the dark eldar ones from 40k.

Hopefully they'll get that rather than some monstrous cavalry unit (they already have warhawk riders as MC anyway!).

That wasn't quite what I meant, the sky-cutter is a flying boat with a bird strapped to the front, nothing about that says 'wood elf' to me, its much more appropriate for the sea-faring high elves and their poncy big helmets.

I think a light, land-based chariot would be much more wood elfy (and more celty), if you want a comparison to the high elves; more tiranoc, less flying boat. I can't see a good reason why not, wood elves used to have a horse drawn chariot in 5th/Hordes era, so putting it back in wouldn't be a problem at all. Maybe as a dual kit it could also make a monstrous chariot pulled by a stag or unicorn and crewed by Wardancers/wild riders.

I think spite swarms would be cool too, ethereal swarms who have low strength and poison (say S2), but ignore armour saves, it would also give me a good use for the dozens of plastic spites I have knocking around from the various plastic sprues wood elves have. I'm not sure about animals swarms, snakes, spiders, killer bunny rabbits and whotnot, the problem is that there are several armies that have access to that kind of unit (Lizardmen, tomb kings) and I've never seen them used which says to me their a bit of a non-choice.

Ender Shadowkin
13-06-2013, 18:20
I used to love my units of bears. Of course now I would need to model laser beams comming out of the eyes.

They would need to do something Dryads don't do now..

Charistoph
13-06-2013, 18:55
They would need to do something Dryads don't do now..

What if Dryads did something different so the Beasts can do something?

Of course, if the Beast unit wasn't Skirmish, it's already doing domething different.

Why
14-06-2013, 06:10
What if Dryads did something different so the Beasts can do something?

Of course, if the Beast unit wasn't Skirmish, it's already doing domething different.

Or if Dryads lost skirmish. Which I fully expect to happen come the update, even if I would need a good cry to get over it;)

Charistoph
14-06-2013, 07:54
Or if Dryads lost skirmish.

That's what I was intimating with the first sentence. Dryads rank up, and the Beast unit becomes a relatively cheap Skirmish hitter much like the Dryads are now.

Of course, if Dryads Ranked Up, then Eternal Guard would need a job besides being a Stubborn bunker for Lords.

popisdead
15-06-2013, 16:19
Of course, if Dryads Ranked Up, then Eternal Guard would need a job besides being a Stubborn bunker for Lords.

Not really different from any Elf Spearmen unit. Just make them cheaper.

Doommasters
15-06-2013, 22:39
Could be cool if they were hero choices that control a beast and if one dies so does the other.

boli
15-06-2013, 23:04
Coming from a skaven perspective (rat ogres, pack masters) beast masters will fail unless cleap and/or extremely powerful.

If it is neither, they'll never be used.

ivrg
15-06-2013, 23:12
No one says anything about what beasts they should be controlling. Bears, eagles,stags?
Maybe a giant squirrel?

Bears stags and eagles seems like a good options. Maybe some huge hunting cat.
I always wanted to put my wildriders on tigers as night elfs in wow.

Doommasters
16-06-2013, 00:51
Beast master could be in unit controlling a beast within 24" to keep him safe and usable. He could be in a unit of dryads or gladeguard fir example with this massive beast protecting them. Then have abilities he can use to enhance the beast each combat phase (I.e not using power dice). If the beast master dies or gets out of 24" it goes feral and starts killing anything close to it.

Could even be a lord level character that can summon monsters to fight for him.

Savage wolves or bears would be cool as beasts but would need to be pretty killy if they were to have those downsides.

MyNameDidntFit
16-06-2013, 04:54
I think something like a hidden counter-charge unit would be awesome. It could work as calling forth a pack of wolves to stall a charge instead of Stand and Shoot, or it could work like Shapeshifters where the charging unit suddenly finds out that a few of those hapless elven archers are actually giant bears.

popisdead
19-06-2013, 22:28
Coming from a skaven perspective (rat ogres, pack masters) beast masters will fail unless cleap and/or extremely powerful.

If it is neither, they'll never be used.

What if they had great synergy with the army and as part of a army worked well and filled a gap?

Myster2
19-06-2013, 23:45
Actually, I'd rather not have them be made darker or more feral. I do not want my Asrai feral at all, and will be very unhappy if that's what happens. They may live in a magical forest and mercilessly slaughter any interlopers, and they may be mystically tied into the seasons, but they are still elves at heart. I actually really really like their background just as it is, it's really dark enough already with all the faerie allusions in it.

This a hundred million percent. It really bothers me that GW wants to go to the "dark side" of the wood elves and have them eat hearts and follow dark pagan rituals. This sounds exactly like.... dark elves? Now they are just more dark elves in the woods? Are they going to give us a "Wood Elf Hydra" then as well (comes in green finecast, looks exactly the same as the DE hydra).

They need to be more along the lines of "life" and druidic (not eveil druidic but nature lovers druidic). I really don't care that GW has a fetish with evil looking stuff or the 12 year olds that run GW feel that evil is "cool." There are enough skulls on everything to begin with.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Charistoph
20-06-2013, 00:04
They need to be more along the lines of "life" and druidic (not eveil druidic but nature lovers druidic).

Wilder doesn't necessarily mean darker. They are just closer tied to the animalistic side of nature instead of the hugging tree side.

And a forest hydra has potential, I would think.

Kakapo42
20-06-2013, 01:48
Wilder doesn't necessarily mean darker. They are just closer tied to the animalistic side of nature instead of the hugging tree side.

I'd much rather have them closer to the hugging tree side then. In my mind the Wood Elves are the hugging tree side of nature and the Beastmen are the animalistic side of nature, and the two contrast each other.

Charistoph
20-06-2013, 03:19
I'd much rather have them closer to the hugging tree side then. In my mind the Wood Elves are the hugging tree side of nature and the Beastmen are the animalistic side of nature, and the two contrast each other.

So, being an animal is "chaotic and evil" compared to the "ordered" existence of being a plant? From that perspective, I wouldn't either.

But I don't see it that way. Nature simply is chaos and order operating in harmony. There are some very ordered animals and very chaotic plants (look up Kudzu).

Beastmen represent nature beyond limits and out of balance with itself. The Wood Elves represent the free flow of life in it's intended form with rage and elegance balanced on a bodkin's point.

And besides all that you miss my earlier point, in that there are Asrai who operate along all sides of nature, the botanical, the animalistic, and the sentient. Right now, only 2 characters represent the animalistic (maybe a unit if you include the Wild Riders), so why should it be wrong to add a unit to that mix just because it doesn't operate on chlorophyll?

Myster2
20-06-2013, 17:53
Nature i believe encompasses both plants and wildlife. There is nothing wrong with having beasts and trees together.

I just really didn't like the interview with GW about the possibility of the new WE book being on the "darker side" of the elves vested in evil pagan rituals.

As silly as this sounds it made me start writing a new WE book as so many people have done before. I hope to have it done by end of July and I think the ideas in it include the monster side and the nature side and tie everything together well.

Why
20-06-2013, 18:06
I think I would like it if wood elves became more sinister and dark. As long as it is well executed, which is unlikely unless one of the "better" authors does it, E.G. not Matt Ward or Crudace:)

Charistoph
20-06-2013, 18:25
Darkness is already present, it just doesn't have a dominating presence. There is a section of Loren that is completely off limits to the Elves. This is where Dryads and Treemen driven mad dwell and anything that is not Forest or Spirit is in constant danger. Isn't that the point of the Dyad SC?

But like the Empire, what darkness is there doesn't wholly define them (or shouldn't), but be there to provide an avenue for a Dark Dryad force if you choose to build one.

Myster2
20-06-2013, 18:50
Darkness is already present, it just doesn't have a dominating presence. There is a section of Loren that is completely off limits to the Elves. This is where Dryads and Treemen driven mad dwell and anything that is not Forest or Spirit is in constant danger. Isn't that the point of the Dyad SC?

But like the Empire, what darkness is there doesn't wholly define them (or shouldn't), but be there to provide an avenue for a Dark Dryad force if you choose to build one.

I'm not really up on the fluff but I thought according to the book the treeman that was driven mad had to be destroyed as he was allied with the beastmen invading. It seems like the WE are constantly fighting that darkness, not allying with it.

Charistoph
21-06-2013, 00:10
I'm not really up on the fluff but I thought according to the book the treeman that was driven mad had to be destroyed as he was allied with the beastmen invading. It seems like the WE are constantly fighting that darkness, not allying with it.

He didn't ally with the Beastmen, but he will attack any WE that comes near him. Last I remember, he's cordened off in his own little corner. But you missed my point that it's useful for people who want to play a Dark Dryad army/story like Drychna.

cyberspite
21-06-2013, 00:32
As far as I'm aware they're not mad, just more xenophobic. The forest isn't good or evil, it's a force of nature that just fights to protect itself, except some parts still see the elves as intruders rather than allies. There are some places the elves don't go, but I should think the whole place would still be pretty dangerous, any elf wandering about would certainly have to watch their back.

And the elves don't control the forest, if anything the forest controls them. The whole tragic theme of the elves slowly being turned into forest spirits and knowing it but not being able to do anything about it is something I quite like and does add a darker, wilder element to them. Or that's my take on it at least, I'm all for darker woodies as long as it's done in an interesting way.

On topic, beastmasters are one of my big hopes for the new book, and there are so many ways they could do them. There are a lot of interesting ideas floating around but I would like to see them rework the alter kindred into a proper beastmaster with access to different beasts that perform different roles, either providing buffs / debuffs or just getting stuck in. A bear, a pair of wildcats, flock of ravens, swarm of spites etc would all be pretty cool, as well as the option to upgrade to a level 1 / 2 beasts mage. There's so much scope they could do almost anything.

Why
21-06-2013, 02:25
Maybe the alter kindred could be a 45$ box. Comes with the elf form, a bear form, a hawk form and a wolf form. All different models tat your alter can change into during the game.