PDA

View Full Version : SoB GK



JC1
11-06-2013, 07:20
Why are Sisters and Grey Knights allies of convenience and not battle brothers?

Fluff wise it would make sense for them to be brothesr (well siblings i suppose :P), as they share pretty much the same ideology. Rules wise it wouldn't particularly give either army a huge boost. Quite frankly sisters currently have one of the weakest codexes and only one true ally.

CrownAxe
11-06-2013, 07:47
did you not read GK fluff?

GK literally murdered a sister covenant to anoint themselves in their corpses for more divine protection against chaos. GK don't make friends

Muad'Dib
11-06-2013, 08:05
did you not read GK fluff?

GK literally murdered a sister covenant to anoint themselves in their corpses for more divine protection against chaos. GK don't make friends
I don't think this is something that is known about in 40K universe; if that would be the case I'd say they'd be desperate allies.

Vet.Sister
11-06-2013, 13:17
From a background standpoint, Crownaxe offers up a good point. There are MANY reasons individual factions within the Imperium simply don't trust one another. Not to mention that Battle Sisters are very xenophobic AND they don't trust any of the space marines, since each group differs on their view of the Emperor. From a table-top view point, many people have already pointed out that the allies table doesn't make sense and/or missed opportunities. I think GW intentionally kept the amount of Battle Bros. results limited because they don't want to give easy access to many, many armies. They gave it to a few that they thought made sense and left it at that.

NOTE; What GW thinks 'makes reasonable sense' does not usually translate into what their player base/community think 'makes reasonable sense'.

Graystoak
11-06-2013, 13:27
I thought it was simply because the Ecclesiarch (who the sisters serve), venerate the Emperor as a God, while the Grey Knights (& all marines for that matter), view him as a Martyr and mortal.
Kinda the way Jesus is in the Christians and Jewish faith.

A.T.
11-06-2013, 13:32
NOTE; What GW thinks 'makes reasonable sense' does not usually translate into what their player base/community think 'makes reasonable sense'.Kor'sarro Khan leading a squad of fire warriors? YES.
Ecclesiarchy priest leading a unit of wolf guard? YES.
Ordo hereticus inquisitor leading a unit of celestians? NO.
Vinculus Crusade list? HELL NO.
Templars and eldar? SURE, WHY NOT.

Any idea who wrote the table and when? It was out some time before the 6th ed rules because they were using it in tournaments for doubles pairings.

Charistoph
11-06-2013, 15:42
One of the Sisters' roles is to hunt Mutants, especially Psykers. What are Grey Knights? And they don't know they are an Ordos force when they first meet, usually, and definitely not after.

M@L@L
11-06-2013, 16:38
Probably best not to question the logic of the allies matrix... Because in several cases, there is no logic to question.

Vet.Sister
11-06-2013, 16:41
I thought it was simply because the Ecclesiarch (who the sisters serve), venerate the Emperor as a God, while the Grey Knights (& all marines for that matter), view him as a Martyr and mortal.
Kinda the way Jesus is in the Christians and Jewish faith.

Yes, this is something I alluded to in my response.

A.T.
11-06-2013, 17:45
I thought it was simply because the Ecclesiarch (who the sisters serve), venerate the Emperor as a God, while the Grey Knights (& all marines for that matter), view him as a Martyr and mortal.The same is true of the imperial guard and marines - the imperial cult is the official state religion and worship of the god emperor is mandatory for all citizens.

As the Emperors sons the marines get something of a free pass (a long standing agreement to disagree on some points) and the attitude of the marines themselves vary quite substantially - for instance in M37 Saint Basilius exiled no less than 30 chapters of marines on a penitent crusade (in the wake of the age of apostasy where many of the chapters sat out as the imperium nearly collapsed underneath them). Saint Sabbat also led marines from two separate chapters at one point and the templars have been noted on occasion as taking inspiration from particularly hardline followers of the imperial faith.

At the other end of the scale you've got outright heretics like the space wolves and their spirits, and bloodthirsty psychotics like the flesh tearers and the sons of malar.

atlantis
11-06-2013, 18:00
there is also the key fact the GK are distrusting of anyone outside the chapter because they may come across the secrets of chaos that they want to keep, well secret

Glenn87
11-06-2013, 20:28
Hasn't anyone considered that GK's and SoB both are the militant forces of different Inquisition Ordo's??...
Knowing that the Ordo's are MAJOR Rivals (going as far as Inquisitors fighting among themselves), it's not THAT weird that they won't be hugging each other...

MikeyB
11-06-2013, 20:32
I thought it was simply because the Ecclesiarch (who the sisters serve), venerate the Emperor as a God, while the Grey Knights (& all marines for that matter), view him as a Martyr and mortal.
Kinda the way Jesus is in the Christians and Jewish faith.

Sorry to correct this but as a Jew i felt i had to. Jesus in the Jewish faith is at best "some mad dude" and at worst a heretic ;) We really couldn't care less about him ^_^

OT: As has been said the SoB hate psykers with a passion. They're really not gong to get on with an entire force of them even if they are space marines :P

Lord Damocles
11-06-2013, 20:32
did you not read GK fluff?

GK literally murdered a sister covenant to anoint themselves in their corpses for more divine protection against chaos. GK don't make friends
That's not actually what it says.

...but whatever...

Glenn87
11-06-2013, 20:39
Actually, where in the Codex: Grey Knights is this part of Blood-Bathing??

Graystoak
11-06-2013, 20:40
Sorry to correct this but as a Jew i felt i had to. Jesus in the Jewish faith is at best "some mad dude" and at worst a heretic ;) We really couldn't care less about him ^_^

OT: As has been said the SoB hate psykers with a passion. They're really not gong to get on with an entire force of them even if they are space marines :P

Correction accepted ;) and your example illustrates my point perfectly!

Forsworn
11-06-2013, 20:53
Actually, where in the Codex: Grey Knights is this part of Blood-Bathing??

It's in the "Historic Battles" section. Something about The Bloodtide.


on that note, **** that fluff. The Grey Knights series (not that Ben Counter hasn't committed his share of sins against the setting) has MUCH better Grey Knights fluff and is a superior source. In the original book (Grey Knights), the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle literally stop shooting each other as soon as they recognize each other. They then proceed to fist-bump and PWN the forces of the bad guy. The Sisters, Grey Knights and Deathwatch should be Battle Brothers. The only reason for this not being so is the same reason that Tau are Battle Brothers with Space Marines and Necrons are Battle Brothers with Blood Angels (that being that there IS no reason).

Also, while the chamber militants are of different Ordos, it's really only the Inquisitors themselves that perform infighting. The Deathwatch, Sisters of Battle, and Grey Knights are pretty much bros all around.

Glenn87
11-06-2013, 21:06
Necrons are Battle Brothers with Blood Angels (that being that there IS no reason).

Crons and Blood Angels aren't Battle Bro's...?

M@L@L
11-06-2013, 21:11
Crons and Blood Angels aren't Battle Bro's...?

I had to check as I was preparing for another laugh fest. Guessing he got the Crons confused with the Guard, who are right next to them in the grid.

JC1
11-06-2013, 21:58
Sorry to correct this but as a Jew i felt i had to. Jesus in the Jewish faith is at best "some mad dude" and at worst a heretic ;) We really couldn't care less about him ^_^


Islam would probably have been a better metaphor, in which he is regarded as a mere mortal who has divine powers granted upon him by a greater power (God).

Christians [SoB] say Jesus [Emperor] is God, Muslims [GK] say he is a mortal who has been gifted with special powers. Each claims the others belief is heresy.

War Corgi
12-06-2013, 00:07
I'm not sure any faction should be battle brothers with Grey Knights. Their tendency to slaughter any forces that see them in action, much less a full convent of sisters just so they can bathe in their blood, prevents the sort of trust building that is essential in creating relationships that result in the "battle brothers" rating.

Vet.Sister
12-06-2013, 00:08
The same is true of the imperial guard and marines - the imperial cult is the official state religion and worship of the god emperor is mandatory for all citizens.

As the Emperors sons the marines get something of a free pass (a long standing agreement to disagree on some points) and the attitude of the marines themselves vary quite substantially - for instance in M37 Saint Basilius exiled no less than 30 chapters of marines on a penitent crusade (in the wake of the age of apostasy where many of the chapters sat out as the imperium nearly collapsed underneath them). Saint Sabbat also led marines from two separate chapters at one point and the templars have been noted on occasion as taking inspiration from particularly hardline followers of the imperial faith.

At the other end of the scale you've got outright heretics like the space wolves and their spirits, and bloodthirsty psychotics like the flesh tearers and the sons of malar.

Wasn't there a Space Marine Chapter that was Excommunicated because they worshipped the Emperor as some kind of divine being? the Imperial Heralds?

Spare Change
12-06-2013, 00:20
That's not actually what it says.

...but whatever...

They murder loyalist forces, so that they can bathe in their blood to create a protective ward, to protect them from a Bloodthirster. Please- please, do not attempt to defend this fluff.

I'm done with the Ward loathing as much as anyone, but this is one thing you cannot attempt to justify. For the children.

Forsworn
12-06-2013, 00:46
I'm not sure any faction should be battle brothers with Grey Knights. Their tendency to slaughter any forces that see them in action, much less a full convent of sisters just so they can bathe in their blood, prevents the sort of trust building that is essential in creating relationships that result in the "battle brothers" rating.
Blame Mat Ward. No, REALLY. He's the one who gave us Grandmaster Mary Sue (who fell to Chaos), Grandmaster Ghostbusters (who should have been executed), and a Necron Terminator with Psychic abilities (should have been shot into the Sun). He ALSO gave us Khornate Grey Knights. Before, it was literally THEIR FAITH ALONE that was such an amazing shield (and why none of them ever fell to Chaos). This is exemplified in the Grey Knights series where a Justicar is stripped of his armor, wargear, and battle brothers, then stranded on a daemon world, and STAYS LOYAL to the emperor. Thanks to Ward, the Grey Knights are less "shining beacons of purity" and more "Silver Ultramarine Sociopaths". It used to be that the Inquisition would execute the people who saw the Knights, usually after the Grey Knights were a few sectors away. Even then, it was only Guardsmen. Sisters of Battle, specialists (such as guard engineers/psykers/etc), Storm Troopers, and Marines were all given the "gentle mind-wipe". Any Imperial citizens were generally dead if the Grey Knights were involved, so they never had civilian casualties. Yes, I hate his fluff.

The point is, everything we are discussing for why the Grey Knights are the way they are is because Matt Ward has no self-control when writing a Codex in 40k and fails to understand that people like their armies to be unique. And yes, I still hate his Codex: Silver Ultramarines.

KhornateLord
12-06-2013, 02:12
There's worse problems in the allies list.
Legion chaos allied with renegades from a current or recently imperial astartes force? Not on your life! But they can ally with dark eldar because dark eldar really really love the chaos gods, and because heresy era marines were super xeno-friendly.
Chaos allied with the Imperial Guard forces they've had since the heresy? Apparently not battle brothers.

Then there's things like Ahriman, the head diviner of a legion excommunicated for divination doesn't have access to divination spells.

Theocracity
12-06-2013, 02:50
They murder loyalist forces, so that they can bathe in their blood to create a protective ward, to protect them from a Bloodthirster. Please- please, do not attempt to defend this fluff.

I'm done with the Ward loathing as much as anyone, but this is one thing you cannot attempt to justify. For the children.

I don't think Damocles is trying to defend it - just pointing out that what was said did not match the original passage. Warseer has a bad habit of distorting things over time, so that fluff that anyone would agree is poorly written takes on a hyperbolic life of its own.

Personally, I think it had a small kernel of an interesting idea that was mangled by brevity and poor writing (in addition to the hyperbolic reaction of the Internet). Lets be honest - if that was the climax of a novel (where the nature of the bloodtide was explained better, the stakes were well defined, the characters and motivations were interesting, and the tragedy / utility of their decision was apparent), it might have been an interesting read. As it is, with almost no context, it's lousy. Usually the lack of context is intended for us to make our own in the games, but this one was so tone deaf without context that no one wants to.

Either way it has nothing to do with the GK / SoB alliance chart. That's purely the fact that the SoB don't trust Psykers, the GK don't trust anyone, and the alliance chart is kind of a mess in general.

Spare Change
12-06-2013, 04:47
I don't think Damocles is trying to defend it - just pointing out that what was said did not match the original passage.

Not so.


did you not read GK fluff?

GK literally murdered a sister covenant to anoint themselves in their corpses for more divine protection against chaos. GK don't make friends

This is the post he corrected. The Grey Knights did murder a group of sisters, and use their remains to create a 'holy ward' against Chaos.

How is that some hyperbolic version of events? Have you read the story? :confused:

Theocracity
12-06-2013, 06:27
Not so.



This is the post he corrected. The Grey Knights did murder a group of sisters, and use their remains to create a 'holy ward' against Chaos.

How is that some hyperbolic version of events? Have you read the story? :confused:

My experience with Damocles is that he's a textualist. He's very specific about what is said in the fluff, and is excellent with his references. While that summary is a little less hyperbolic than the usual versions of the story, it is, as he said, not quite what was in the codex. And I've read the piece in question, yes.

The context and presentation of a piece of information is very important, and can seriously change the way a piece of story can be received. For example, if the concept of Exterminatus wasn't a well-known piece of the setting, a negative way to describe it might be "Humanity's greatest heroes would rather commit genocide on innocents than bother with a hard fight." Sounds like some awful writing, right? But with context it's not so bad. (Edit to clarify: Exterminatus is still awful as a concept, but as a storytelling device it's not bad :p)

The Bloodtide piece was seriously botched and lacked the necessary context to make it even halfway interesting, but summaries of it that gloss over what little context there is make it worse than it needs to be.

A.T.
12-06-2013, 09:42
Hasn't anyone considered that GK's and SoB both are the militant forces of different Inquisition Ordo's??...
Knowing that the Ordo's are MAJOR Rivals (going as far as Inquisitors fighting among themselves), it's not THAT weird that they won't be hugging each other...Except that the ordo hereticus inquisitors are part of the GK book, not the sisters book.
That's really more the problem, while it's reasonable for the GKs to not be close allies with anyone they've dragged the inquisition with them - sisters can't even join Karamazov and he was a special character from their codex.

The sisters battle brother list should be guard, templars, and potentially vanilla marines (and definitely not space wolves :p)



Wasn't there a Space Marine Chapter that was Excommunicated because they worshipped the Emperor as some kind of divine being? the Imperial Heralds?Imperial Heralds was the original name of the Word Bearers wasn't it?

Litcheur
12-06-2013, 12:52
on that note, **** that fluff.
Once upon a time, there used to be a fifth god of Chaos. Malal, also known as Malice, the Renegade God.
God of Chaos, god of Anarchy, god of "screw you all, including me and my fellow gods".

Malal's champions were only dedicated to the slaughter of the four Chaos Gods minions. Sounds familiar ?

Malal's best champion was called "God Slayer" and wandered in the warp, killing deamons and trolling the gods themselves. Sounds familiar ?
And his name was Kaldor Kaleb Draigo Daark.



Why are Sisters and Grey Knights allies of convenience and not battle brothers?
Because the Sisters only like real men. :o

Vet.Sister
12-06-2013, 14:23
Imperial Heralds was the original name of the Word Bearers wasn't it?

Yes. after some light reading... before the Imperial Heralds were Excommunicat for falling to Chaos, they were rebuked by the Emperor himself because they worshipped the Emperor as a deity. So, yeah there are some storyline blurbs about the Space Marines & Primarchs venerating the Emperor but NOT worshipping him as a deity. So a sharp point of contention between Sisters and all other Marines. Marines do get (grudging) acceptance from the Sororitas because the Emperor created them to protect humanity etc, etc, and so on, but the Sisters keep an "eye" upon them... which most Adeptus Astartes don't really like as it questions their loyalty!

So if they RETCON the Black Templars or some such to actually worship the Emperor as a Deity... perhaps Sisters might be Battle Bros. with those Marines. I won't be holding my breath. :shifty:

Lord Damocles
12-06-2013, 15:01
They murder loyalist forces, so that they can bathe in their blood to create a protective ward, to protect them from a Bloodthirster. Please- please, do not attempt to defend this fluff.
1) We don't know what the Sisters thought about the situation. We're not told that the Grey Knights 'murder' the Sisters at all ('...the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle'). For all we know the Sisters were in on the plan - it's not like they were having much success stopping the Bloodtide, after all; and they're all about martyrdom.

2) The Grey Knights don't 'bathe' in the blood ('The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons').

3) Anointing weapons/armour isn't a new idea at all. See the descriptions of Unguents of Warding/Anointed Weapons/Nemesis Force Weapons from Codex: Daemonhunters. I'm pretty sure Counter's Grey Knights books specifically feature a blood/oil anointing mix too.


Is the 'Bloodtide Returns' background well written? Hell no. And I'm not defending the quality of the writing.
(It could have been quite cool and grimdark (if the blood isn't actually required for the wards to work, but is superstitious mumbo-jumbo, for example))

But from what you see in comments about it, the Grey Knights rock up on Van Horne, yell 'Blood for the Blood God!' butcher the Sisters of Battle who had the situation under control, and then wallow in bathtubs of gore; and repeated (deliberate?) misrepresentation of the scenario doesn't help matters.

A.T.
12-06-2013, 15:09
So a sharp point of contention between Sisters and all other Marines. Marines do get (grudging) acceptance from the Sororitas because the Emperor created them to protect humanity etc, etc, and so on, but the Sisters keep an "eye" upon them...I'm not aware of an instances of the sororitas investigating or attack the astartes of their own volition, or anything suggesting an adversarial position between the two other than with specific chapters such as the wolves and flesh tearers (and only the latter after the sisters witnessed them slaughtering the loyalist civilian population in a blood rage).

Besides the astartes and the ecclesiarchy as a whole have a long standing agreement on the subject - the rosarius each chaplain carries is a gift from the ecclesiarchy to symbolise the link between the two (pg50, SoB codex 2nd ed)



So if they RETCON the Black Templars or some such to actually worship the Emperor as a Deity... perhaps Sisters might be Battle Bros. with those Marines.Templar codex, p18 (chaplains) - "The central shrine where prayer and worship is conducted" ... "containing the chapter's most holy relics" ... "the banner carried by Captain Navarre at the Siege of the Imperial Palace" (aka the one with the ecclesiarchy symbol on it) ... "the fires of battle are places of worship, the roar of bolters are prayers and the slaughter of foes an offering to the Emperor"

The templars are very big on Emperor worship - there is even one instance in their codex of a marshal leading his command staff to a world purely to take inspiration from the populations potent display of faith.

A.T.
12-06-2013, 15:13
3) Anointing weapons/armour isn't a new idea at all. See the descriptions of Unguents of Warding/Anointed Weapons/Nemesis Force Weapons from Codex: Daemonhunters. I'm pretty sure Counter's Grey Knights books specifically feature a blood/oil anointing mix too.I think much of it comes from the codex doing the whole "greyknights are utterly pure and can never be corrupted ... and they have purifiers who are even more pure than pure ... and then this guy who is purer still!"

If they were portrayed as having to do terrible things to protect themselves then it's all good, but instead it reads like superman using a human shield - he's bulletproof anyway, but now he's 'more bulletproof!'

Lord Damocles
12-06-2013, 15:24
If they were portrayed as having to do terrible things to protect themselves then it's all good, but instead it reads like superman using a human shield - he's bulletproof anyway, but now he's 'more bulletproof!'
True - Codex: Grey Knights is poorly written.

That doesn't excuse the constant misquoting of it though.

A.T.
12-06-2013, 15:47
That doesn't excuse the constant misquoting of it though.Well to accurately quote it - a daemon trapped within a stasis prison is accidentally freed and corrupts all around, save for a few sisters of battle, creating orgies of bloodletting and sacrifices. At some point thereafter the grey knights arrive, their first act being to spill the blood of the innocent in order to avoid the (non existent according to the rest of the book) risk of corruption. Ultimately one of the grey knights is sacrificed in an unspecified manner to defeat the daemon and before it can escape into the warp the grey knights bravely ... cast it into the warp.

Hang on, cast it back into the warp? Wasn't it an imprisoned daemon? Did the grey knights just let the guy go? ... did they just help him escape?

Vet.Sister
12-06-2013, 15:50
I'm not aware of an instances of the sororitas investigating or attack the astartes of their own volition, or anything suggesting an adversarial position between the two other than with specific chapters such as the wolves and flesh tearers (and only the latter after the sisters witnessed them slaughtering the loyalist civilian population in a blood rage).

Besides the astartes and the ecclesiarchy as a whole have a long standing agreement on the subject - the rosarius each chaplain carries is a gift from the ecclesiarchy to symbolise the link between the two (pg50, SoB codex 2nd ed)


Templar codex, p18 (chaplains) - "The central shrine where prayer and worship is conducted" ... "containing the chapter's most holy relics" ... "the banner carried by Captain Navarre at the Siege of the Imperial Palace" (aka the one with the ecclesiarchy symbol on it) ... "the fires of battle are places of worship, the roar of bolters are prayers and the slaughter of foes an offering to the Emperor"

The templars are very big on Emperor worship - there is even one instance in their codex of a marshal leading his command staff to a world purely to take inspiration from the populations potent display of faith.

Well, I have not stated my thoughts clearly. (no big surprise for those that know me :rolleyes: )
The Adepta Sororitas does not officially 'keep track of' or 'keep tabs upon' the Adeptus Astartes, Battle Sisters are on the constant look out for Heresy. If there is a group that is part of the Imperium but does not worship the Emperor according to the cult that the Ecclesiarchy supports... well, they should be watched. Technically that Includes Space Marines, AND Battle Sisters are very zealous. So that kind of thought/action is hard to keep quiet IMO because Battle sisters are so zealous. Most Marines are probably too busy with their devotion to martial perfection and protecting the imperium of man to notice, but if they did... I really don't think they'd be very understanding. They may not destroy the Sisters, but the lack of respect would certainly mean (to return to the start) that Space Marines and Battle Sisters would not be Battle Bros.

As for the Black Templars, well that's what I get for not having their codex and then making remarks about them in the interwebz. :evilgrin:
Still, I haven't read anything about the Black Templars openly worshipping the Emperor as a Diety! Perhaps not much of a difference, but still a difference.

just my opinion, which is not necessarily correct :)

Cheers!

A.T.
12-06-2013, 16:38
Still, I haven't read anything about the Black Templars openly worshipping the Emperor as a Diety!They are certainly praying to someone.

The templars have all kinds of stuff in their book - cenobyte servitors tasked with carrying "chapter relics, holy tomes or other such religious artifacts", the orbs of antioch "empowered with the holy wrath of the emperor", the sacred standards, holy relics, blessed armour - their most revered chaplain Grimaldus even has three servitors tasked with dragging pieces of the 'Temple of the Emperor Ascendant' into battle with him.

To my knowledge they never actually refer to him as a god by name, they just carry all the trappings of it - they refer to the emperor as Him (capitalised) in their vows and prayers and there are mentions of 'sacred duty to the Emperor', 'trust in Him to intercede and protect', and bringing faith to the ignorant and so on.


The sisters are the more humane, moderate, forgiving, and considered of the two (and it's worth noting in fluff that sisters have stood in defence of marines - notably Canoness Setheno who was a raving fanatic by sororitas standards but still sided with the heavily mutated black dragons on the grounds that they were loyal to the emperor)

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
12-06-2013, 17:12
They are certainly praying to someone.
Well, I don't know. There are religions without gods. See Jainism for instance. And the Black Templars are supposed to be very close to the no-God-Emperor, pre-Codex Astartes Imperial Fist.


The sisters are the more humane, moderate, forgiving, and considered of the two
Tell that to repentia. They'll love to hear it. Well, they are the more humane, because they don't spit acid. But moderate ? Forgiving ? Seriously ? They can't even forgive their own slightest sins, and self-mutilation to that level, with berserk rage added on top, isn't exactly moderation.

A.T.
12-06-2013, 17:56
Tell that to repentia. They'll love to hear it. Well, they are the more humane, because they don't spit acid. But moderate ? Forgiving ? Seriously ? They can't even forgive their own slightest sins, and self-mutilation to that level, with berserk rage added on top, isn't exactly moderation.Repentia can be forgiven - it's kind of the point, they want to be forgiven for their actual/perceived failings.
Besides repentia are the exception, not the rule and self mutilation isn't an integral part of it, sadly I can't remember the source but it was noted (by a sororitas IIRC) that self punishment for its own sake is an affront to the emperor.

The sisters day to day work is focussed around protecting the physical and spiritual well being of others - there are entire orders dedicated to treating the sick, caring for the young, and various scholarly pursuits and the bulk of the militant orders are tasked with guarding pilgrim routes and holy sites. Both they and the templars do the whole kill the witch/heretic/alien bit but the sisters have a few more strings to their bow.

Beyond that the sisters are just more frequently repulsed, concerned, or generally shown to care about the loss of civilian lives than marines in general, though that varies from chapter to chapter and templars are relatively 'friendly' as far as these things go.

Forsworn
12-06-2013, 18:52
Battle Sisters are very zealous.

I think Commissar Cain stated the best explanation of the Sisters of Battle:
- "Point them in the direction, should 'Heretic' and watch the fireworks."

He even goes as far as to question their abilities on the battlefield; not because they are not great soldiers or badly equipped, but because they have the tactical capabilities of The Knights in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

A.T.
12-06-2013, 22:57
I think Commissar Cain stated the best explanation of the Sisters of BattleIt's written from his skewed view, and he's still miffed about losing to them at scrumball :p

They are after all trained at the same school and to the same standards as the commissars and the storm troopers - including Cain himself - and then recieve additional tactical and military training above and beyond his own.

Spare Change
12-06-2013, 23:19
1) We don't know what the Sisters thought about the situation. We're not told that the Grey Knights 'murder' the Sisters at all ('...the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle'). For all we know the Sisters were in on the plan - it's not like they were having much success stopping the Bloodtide, after all; and they're all about martyrdom.

Ah- so you genuinely believe it's possible that the Sisters were in on the plan? Your speculation is a lot less likely than them 'disliking it'.

The Sisters - who have a history of butting heads with astartes of all shades, including Black Templars, who share their religious views - sacrificed themselves to make a 'holy ward', to protect the 'incorruptible' Grey Knights from corruption.


2) The Grey Knights don't 'bathe' in the blood ('The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons').

So they didn't fill up a bath-tub and reach for their duckies, they just smeared it onto their armor and weapons. Clearly, this drastically shifts the entire tone of the tale, truly. How one goes about the application of the blood of innocents is the key- a common misconception.


3) Anointing weapons/armour isn't a new idea at all. See the descriptions of Unguents of Warding/Anointed Weapons/Nemesis Force Weapons from Codex: Daemonhunters. I'm pretty sure Counter's Grey Knights books specifically feature a blood/oil anointing mix too.

They created it on-scene, using loyalist forces.


But from what you see in comments about it, the Grey Knights rock up on Van Horne, yell 'Blood for the Blood God!' butcher the Sisters of Battle who had the situation under control, and then wallow in bathtubs of gore; and repeated (deliberate?) misrepresentation of the scenario doesn't help matters.

Yours is the most hyperbolic version we've seen thus far in the thread.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-06-2013, 00:19
Repentia can be forgiven
Yes they can. But it's not easy. Are you telling me that some marines decide one day that they can't be forgiven for their sins, and therefore commit suicide or something ?

The sisters day to day work is focussed around protecting the physical and spiritual well being of others
No, it's training and praying. Explicitly mentioned in about any and every source of fluff about them.

there are entire orders dedicated to treating the sick, caring for the young, and various scholarly pursuits
These are no Sisters of Battle orders. Because they don't do battle. They are Sororitas, but not from the militant orders. Don't get the same training, don't do the same thing.

and the bulk of the militant orders are tasked with guarding pilgrim routes and holy sites.
Doesn't make them more moderate or forgiving in any way !

Beyond that the sisters are just more frequently repulsed, concerned, or generally shown to care about the loss of civilian lives than marines in general, though that varies from chapter to chapter and templars are relatively 'friendly' as far as these things go.
Mainly because they are more “humane”, i.e. they can actually relate to civilians in a way that acid-spitting marines can't.
On the other hand, many Sisters wouldn't have any problem about butchering even innocent civilians for the heresy of their rulers.

Theocracity
13-06-2013, 01:19
Yours is the most hyperbolic version we've seen thus far in the thread.

That's not what hyperbolic means.

The point was that despite what you say there's a large amount of context and story that can be built around what's provided in the codex. The set of assumptions you're making about it don't exist in the text any more than Damocles' assumptions do, even if you pretend that your version of the story is more valid than his.

The ambiguity of context is important and is the way almost all codex fluff is written. If you want, you can interpret a very obviously stupid story out of it. But why do that, unless you like being aggravated? Either ignore it or build something a bit more palatable out of the context (as difficult as it is, considering how poorly its written in the first place).

Spare Change
13-06-2013, 03:31
That's not what hyperbolic means.

How so? His claim of how it's supposedly being presented in this thread, was far more outrageous than any slight variance from the actual story we put forth.


The point was that despite what you say there's a large amount of context and story that can be built around what's provided in the codex. The set of assumptions you're making about it don't exist in the text any more than Damocles' assumptions do, even if you pretend that your version of the story is more valid than his.

That could have been, but wasn't.

I never pretended anything. Damocles was the first to speculate as to the author's intent behind the work, and the mind-state of the Sisters. You'd have noticed that, had you not been blindly defending him, without actually reading what has been written in the thread.

Dismount from thine steed, sir White Knight. I assure you, your maiden will survive. ;)


The ambiguity of context is important and is the way almost all codex fluff is written. If you want, you can interpret a very obviously stupid story out of it. But why do that, unless you like being aggravated? Either ignore it or build something a bit more palatable out of the context (as difficult as it is, considering how poorly its written in the first place).

The story is quite clear, and lacks any depth. Saying that it 'could have' been grimdark, or 'could have' had depth is a moot point.

I get that you two are in the Ward defense league, and have trusty decoder rings and the whole deal, but you're struggling here.

Death Company
13-06-2013, 03:37
If you want, you can interpret a very obviously stupid story out of it.

That's what most people - with even the most limited of educations probably would do - as it's exactly what it is.

It's not the communities job to flesh out depth that isn't there, just to make poor writing redeemable. To imply that it's negativity on the part of a hobby enthusiast, for calling poor writing poor, is bizarre.

Spare Change
13-06-2013, 03:40
That's what most people - with even the most limited of educations probably would do - as it's exactly what it is.

It's not the communities job to flesh out depth that isn't there, just to make poor writing redeemable. To imply that it's negativity on the part of a hobby enthusiast, for calling poor writing poor, is bizarre.

Thank you.


These Ward apologists had me feeling as if I was taking crazy pills! :p

Forsworn
13-06-2013, 03:47
These are no Sisters of Battle orders. Because they don't do battle. They are Sororitas, but not from the militant orders. Don't get the same training, don't do the same thing.


Sisters of Battle is the common name for the Adepta Sororitas. Same as Space Marines being the common name for Adeptus Astartes.

On that note, the entire BASIS of the Sisters of Battle is Martial Orders. Read any book about them. They have orders like The White Rose, The Flaming Rose, The Crimson Rose. . . yeah, they like roses for some reason. O.o
Also, there are Sisters Hospitaller. They receive the same martial training, but also medical training. They are rarely deployed to the battlefield because they are far more useful keeping people alive than dying on the front lines.

A.T.
13-06-2013, 10:08
Yes they can. But it's not easy. Are you telling me that some marines decide one day that they can't be forgiven for their sins, and therefore commit suicide or something ?Repentia don't just up and commit suicide, and they believe they can be forgiven - just not through lesser means. And plenty of space marines seek glorious/absolving death in battle for differing reasons - lone wolves, death company, arguably Dorn and the whole iron cage incident.


No, it's training and praying. Explicitly mentioned in about any and every source of fluff about them.Codex WH: The orders militant.
On a day-today basis, the duties of the Orders Militant are many and varied (snip) The sisters provide a visible presence, guarding holy sites, escorting hierarchs, ensuring that the common citizen is suitably deferential in the presence of the great and good of the Ecclesiarchy, and that the coffers are filled at collection time.
The Imperium is criss-crossed by a complex network of pilgrim routes and the Sisters are responsible for maintaining the safety of those that travel upon them.

Yes they pray, train, and fight in wars - but they are not space marines or imperial guard, they have other duties to be getting on with.


These are no Sisters of Battle orders.Irrelevant - the orders militant are better at killing you, but all sororitas are held to the same moral standards learnt as children in the same schools. The sisters of battle don't get given some extra list of heresies that the others aren't privy to.


On the other hand, many Sisters wouldn't have any problem about butchering even innocent civilians for the heresy of their rulers.Care to provide an example? I can certainly provide one of the sisters being aghast and shocked by the butchery of innocent civilians by other imperial forces.

Theocracity
13-06-2013, 13:36
How so? His claim of how it's supposedly being presented in this thread, was far more outrageous than any slight variance from the actual story we put forth.


Why is it necessarily outrageous? Does it contradict the text that's been provided? Or does it contradict the context of the story you've assumed exists around it?

If it's the second, then you need to realize that what you're arguing for is in your own mind. You're assuming actions and motivations on the part of the SoB, actions and motivations on the part of the GK, and the context of the Bloodtide in general. Are those reasonable assumptions? Sure, if you want them to be. But they're not supported by the text, and another conclusion could be drawn if you wanted to make lemonade out of lemons. You seem to want to just throw the lemons at people.

I admit, Ward's crap writing doesn't make it easy to like, but what's in the codex does not necessarily tell the whole story.



That could have been, but wasn't.

I never pretended anything. Damocles was the first to speculate as to the author's intent behind the work, and the mind-state of the Sisters. You'd have noticed that, had you not been blindly defending him, without actually reading what has been written in the thread.


Someone hasn't been reading this thread if you assume I'm blindly defending anything. You also seem to be blind to the assumptions you automatically make as a reader.


Dismount from thine steed, sir White Knight. I assure you, your maiden will survive. ;)

Yeah, clearly I have no agency in discussing a topic just because someone agrees with me. Are you Death Company's fair maiden then? :p




The story is quite clear, and lacks any depth.

Not as clear as you're pretending it is.


Saying that it 'could have' been grimdark, or 'could have' had depth is a moot point.

I could take any cool, grimdark story and write a summary of it so that it seems lame and shallow. I could also take any lame and shallow piece of Ward-style summary and flesh it out with interesting grimdarky short story that fits the setting.

You can do this too. We're supposed to do the latter with 40K fluff. We do it every time we flesh out a Second Founding chapter that's little more than a name, or create a campaign based on a neat sector that gets mentioned in a timeline. That's part of the hobby and part of the fun. The Bloodtide piece was spectacularly mishandled on Ward's part, but I can see the kernel of an interesting idea that it started from (and was subsequently bungled).


I get that you two are in the Ward defense league, and have trusty decoder rings and the whole deal, but you're struggling here.

Do you actually read my posts, or do you just assume you know my argument and disregard the things I actually say?



That's what most people - with even the most limited of educations probably would do - as it's exactly what it is.

It's not the communities job to flesh out depth that isn't there, just to make poor writing redeemable. To imply that it's negativity on the part of a hobby enthusiast, for calling poor writing poor, is bizarre.

Nice ad hominem there.

As mentioned above, it is certainly our job to flesh out otherwise shallow content in 40k. The better or more evocative it's written, the easier it is to do this, and with this piece of fluff it's pretty hard to get engaged. I've fully admitted - many times in this thread and others - that it's a crap piece of writing that doesn't do anything for me.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-06-2013, 14:54
Sisters of Battle is the common name for the Adepta Sororitas. Same as Space Marines being the common name for Adeptus Astartes.
Nope. Sisters of Battle is the name of the militant orders, i.e. those that focus on putting bolts or throwing promethium to the face of others, not those that focus on making big family trees or translating stuff. Because making big family tree or translating stuff is not really linked to battle in any way.
I'm not at home, so I can't quote a direct source, but here's lexicanicum for you :
“The terms "Adepta Sororitas" and "Sisters of Battle" are commonly assumed to mean the same thing, but the latter title technically refers only to the Orders Militant - the military arm of the organisation which is the largest and the best-known part of the Sororitas. ”
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

On that note, the entire BASIS of the Sisters of Battle is Martial Orders. Read any book about them. They have orders like The White Rose, The Flaming Rose, The Crimson Rose. . . yeah, they like roses for some reason. O.o
Also, there are Sisters Hospitaller. They receive the same martial training, but also medical training. They are rarely deployed to the battlefield because they are far more useful keeping people alive than dying on the front lines.
I have no idea what you are speaking about. But I'm sure as hell that Famulous orders, or Pronatus orders, for instance, have absolutely no presence on the battlefield and no duties linked in any way to war.

Repentia don't just up and commit suicide
Yes. I was just trying to see how Marines can be less forgiving than the Repentias. And that's the only thing I could think of. But they don't do that.

And plenty of space marines seek glorious/absolving death in battle for differing reasons - lone wolves, death company, arguably Dorn and the whole iron cage incident.
Lone wolves don't look to absolve themselves, they just feel lonely and want revenge. How does that makes them unforgiving ? Though I agree it's not moderate. But not less moderate than running around almost naked and full of self-mutilations while brandishing a giant two-handed chain-sword.
As for Death Company, it's irrelevant : theses guys are just killing because it's the only thing they are capable of anymore. It's not a choice, it's a mental disease.

Irrelevant - the orders militant are better at killing you, but all sororitas are held to the same moral standards learnt as children in the same schools.
The same morals ? Yes. The same mindset ? Hell no ! Even between different orders there are small differences. How do you expect an active battle sister to have the same mentality as a sister pronatus ?

Care to provide an example?
Of course. In Faith and Fire, it happens after
the Sisters assault and capture the stronghold of whatever-his-name, the aristocrat who made a pact with Vaun.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-06-2013, 15:04
It's written from his skewed view, and he's still miffed about losing to them at scrumball :p
And beside that, this guy beat the crap out of Khornate space marines while shouting at them he didn't knew Khorne was for sissies.
He hardly ever praise his or others tactical abilities. But I guess that's because he kind off have very high standards.

A.T.
13-06-2013, 15:57
Yes. I was just trying to see how Marines can be less forgiving than the RepentiasI was wondering why you sisters are not forgiving? They go out of their way to seek redemption and forgiveness for others, even those who didn't ask for it.

Marines on the other hand? Heretic - shoot them, repentant heretic - shoot them, potentially repentant heretic - shoot them. They never even stop to consider the merits of nailing one to a penitent engine or the like.

You also need to stop focussing on just the repentia as the sororitas is a large and varied organisation. Really it's no different that stating that marines more bloodthirsty than dark eldar based purely on the flesh tearers chapter - it's just not representative.



Of course. In Faith and Fire, it happens afterThe attack on Metis? You mean the civilians that the sisters were explicitly ORDERED to kill by a lord deacon?

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-06-2013, 16:12
I was wondering why you sisters are not forgiving? They go out of their way to seek redemption and forgiveness for others, even those who didn't ask for it.

Marines on the other hand? Heretic - shoot them, repentant heretic - shoot them, potentially repentant heretic - shoot them.
So basically, Marines and Sisters do the same. Because that's the way they bring redemption and forgiveness to others…

They never even stop to consider the merits of nailing one to a penitent engine or the like.
Yep, only the priest do it.

You also need to stop focussing on just the repentia as the sororitas is a large and varied organisation. Really it's no different that stating that marines more bloodthirsty than dark eldar based purely on the flesh tearers chapter - it's just not representative.
Completely different. The different militant orders are much much more similar than the different chapters, and the repentia are a global phenomenon present among all orders. They are just the most obvious embodiment of how Sisters are extreme and unforgiving.

The attack on Metis? You mean the civilians that the sisters were explicitly ORDERED to kill by a lord deacon?
[SPOILER] exists for a reason !
And it doesn't really seem very unusual or disturbing to them.

A.T.
13-06-2013, 16:40
So basically, Marines and Sisters do the same. Because that's the way they bring redemption and forgiveness to others…What? I don't? ... What?
Marine chapters are not deployed to bring forgiveness and redemption to others!


And it doesn't really seem very unusual or disturbing to them.Why would it? They aren't innocent civilians in the sisters eyes as they have been declared heretic and traitor by the ecclesiarchy.


How did this line of the topic even start? (peers back through the posts).
Ah right, noting that the templars zeal was more bloodthirsty and extreme than that of the sisters on the whole.

Forsworn
13-06-2013, 16:48
And beside that, this guy beat the crap out of Khornate space marines while shouting at them he didn't knew Khorne was for sissies.
He hardly ever praise his or others tactical abilities. But I guess that's because he kind off have very high standards.

I remember it being more of a:
he barely held off a wounder berzerker while thinking "oh, s*** oh, s*** oh, sh***", then threw himself out of the way so his aide could fry it with a Meltagun
then agian, I might be wrong but I can always check the book. :)

Also, I thought that Sisters of Battle was interchangeable with Adepta Sororitas because that's how its always used (sort of like Space Marine with Adeptus Astartes). There *is* a mention in the fluff somewhere that all of the Sororitas receive basic combat training. The only two real big divisions I've ever found for the Sororitas are the medical orders (like the Sisters Hospitaller) and militant orders (Sisters of Battle). Never heard or read of Sisters of Research or Sisters of Keeping the Library Quiet (which, strangely enough, are regarded as FAR scarier than any of the actual Sisters of Battle).

A.T.
13-06-2013, 17:06
Never heard or read of Sisters of Research or Sisters of Keeping the Library Quiet (which, strangely enough, are regarded as FAR scarier than any of the actual Sisters of Battle).Lots of minor orders which contain combatant and non-combatant sisters to differing degrees - and there are more than one of many (that is to say that there are many orders of hospitallers, etc)

There are minor militant orders split off from the major orders for a specific purpose - i.e. it's possible for a militant order to exist purely to defend a particular site or route.

The Dialogus are language specialists, also highly skilled in analysis and logical tasks - similar to some branches of the adeptus terra but far more likely to be found using their skills in practice rather than simply maintaining and archiving data.
The Famulous are dedicated to the organisation of imperial households, serving as advisers, directing businesses and generally ensuring the ecclesiarchy keeps a tight hold over powerful households. The Famulous also arrange and track breeding in the noble houses - they are essentially the 40k bene gesserit.

Beyond those you get down to the smaller orders, such as the pronatus (recovery of artefacts and technology), the sisters sabine (individuals who infiltrate primative human cultures and prepare them for assimilation)

An extreme example of a minor order would be the Order Vespila - a small group of hopsitallers tasked with sanctification of bodies prior to burial on a single world, but also know as extremely skilled forensic investigators.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-06-2013, 21:14
Marine chapters are not deployed to bring forgiveness and redemption to others!
Neither are Sisters. They are deployed to further the goals of the Ecclesiarchy, whatever those goals are. It's usually defending something, or protecting some peoples, or killing a bunch of guys.

Why would it? They aren't innocent civilians in the sisters eyes as they have been declared heretic and traitor by the ecclesiarchy.
Because of no fault of them, just because of their rulers' decision. Doesn't strike my as a forgiving and moderate definition of guilt, really.

How did this line of the topic even start? (peers back through the posts).
Ah right, noting that the templars zeal was more bloodthirsty and extreme than that of the sisters on the whole.
Your exact words were about Sisters being more forgiving and moderate. I personally kept focused on that ;). Well, let's agree to disagree on the subject, but I still think the Sisters are neither actually.

I remember it being more of a:
he barely held off a wounder berzerker while thinking "oh, s*** oh, s*** oh, sh***", then threw himself out of the way so his aide could fry it with a Meltagun
then agian, I might be wrong but I can always check the book. :)
I happen to have it, but the French translation.
Berserk charge Cain, bunch of guards shoot Berserk with lasguns, Berserk avoids most of them, those that hit just leave small marks on his armor, Cain wake up at lost moment from his stupor, parry the first chainsaw strike, Cain tease with something along the lines of “Is that the best you can do ?”, Cain hit the berserker in the chest, Cain tease “I thought Khorne adepts were warriors, not sissies”, Berserker tease “I will make you eat your own guts”, Berserker tries to hit Cain, Cain makes Berserker hit his own foot!, Cain tease “As if I haven't heard that one before”, Cain get out of the way, Jurgen melta Berserker away.

Of course, Cain couldn't go through the power armor with a mere chainsword and non-augmented muscle, so he couldn't administer the finishing blow, but really, it looks just like Cain is toying with the marine ! He pretends to be scared in the comment, but he always do anyway…
I don't know about you, but I call that an big humiliation :P.

Also, I thought that Sisters of Battle was interchangeable with Adepta Sororitas because that's how its always used (sort of like Space Marine with Adeptus Astartes).
Don't worry, it's a natural error that's even been made in the official stupid WDex. It actually comes mostly from the awesome White Dwarf 293 (UK, I have the French one but I can't remember the number and I don't have it with me) :
172330
So, yeah, quite old and not very broadly available fluff. But sadly, it's one of the only two worthwhile piece of fluff on the Sisters and the Ecclersiarchy I've found, along with… the v2 codex.

Never heard or read of Sisters of Research or Sisters of Keeping the Library Quiet (which, strangely enough, are regarded as FAR scarier than any of the actual Sisters of Battle).
You've not read each and every fluff article of each and every white dwarf ? Shame on you :p. It's pretty cool fluff, actually. I wish they developed it more.

A.T. : Where did you get this Order Vespilla ? I'm quite interested :D. One of the RPG ?

Lord Damocles
13-06-2013, 21:37
Posts
Since you've not been able to show that the Grey Knights murdered the Sisters of Battle, or that they bathed in their blood, you've still failed to counter my assertion that your description of the Bloodtide incident is inaccurate.

Death Company
13-06-2013, 22:31
Are you Death Company's fair maiden then? :p

Negative- but you could be. I like 'em sassy.


Nice ad hominem there.

It wasn't intended as a jab, just the truth.


As mentioned above, it is certainly our job to flesh out otherwise shallow content in 40k. The better or more evocative it's written, the easier it is to do this, and with this piece of fluff it's pretty hard to get engaged. I've fully admitted - many times in this thread and others - that it's a crap piece of writing that doesn't do anything for me.

See, here's the problem- you're attempting to make your personal love of adding depth to mediocre writing the norm, and painting those who call out mediocre work as being somehow being negative; that's the problem we have.

"The Emperor killed Steve, and used his entrails to protect himself from Doom VanBadguy, eater of entrails."

That's bad writing. There's no depth, no context to properly shape the story, nothing. We're given a small snippet of stupidity, and you feel it's on the part of the hobbyist to create some meaningful fluff. That's not how this works. This isn't a 'choose your own adventure' codex, where I add to the work, and create something salvageable. It's a vague story, that's poorly written. The end.

You'd make for quite possibly the poorest literary critic in existence.

Theocracity
13-06-2013, 23:05
It wasn't intended as a jab, just the truth.


So because I can imagine a slightly more interesting story by creating some context with the information that's been given, I'm uneducated. Sure, that's not a jab.


See, here's the problem- you're attempting to make your personal love of adding depth to mediocre writing the norm, and painting those who call out mediocre work as being somehow being negative; that's the problem we have.

So because I'm engaged with the storytelling aspect of the hobby, and occasionally get irritated when people repeat reductive blather over and over again, I'm the bad guy?


"The Emperor killed Steve, and used his entrails to protect himself from Doom VanBadguy, eater of entrails."

That's bad writing. There's no depth, no context to properly shape the story, nothing. We're given a small snippet of stupidity, and you feel it's on the part of the hobbyist to create some meaningful fluff. That's not how this works. This isn't a 'choose your own adventure' codex, where I add to the work, and create something salvageable. It's a vague story, that's poorly written. The end.

You'd make for quite possibly the poorest literary critic in existence.

I have no problem with criticizing the quality of the writing. It's crap, and I've said so many many times (as I apparently have to keep repeating). But let's not pretend that it's any different in purpose from any other particular piece of codex fluff. By your standards, even a well written snippet of fluff is useless to create games or scenarios around, because it's not our job to create something meaningful out of it.

Codex fluff - even the bad examples of it - is just there to provide a kernel or a spark that the players build something around. They're not works of art - they're just evocative bits to explain why faction X wants to beat up faction Y, with a lot of information left out so that the players can build their own stories around it. That's what it all boils down to.

A lot of people apparently feel the need to interpret this particular piece of badly written, tone-deaf fluff in its most absurd light, and then treat that as if it's inviolably true with no possible other interpretation. That's a silly view, to me, not only because it ignores the point of codex fluff in the first place but it's also self-damaging. Do you like feeling negative about it, and ranting about how terrible it is? If that's enjoyable, great, I'm glad Mat Ward has given you some joy in the world. If not, you can just what I do with fluff that doesn't fit my personal tastes - ignore it, because it doesn't matter.

Edit: Also, for the record:


"The Emperor killed Steve, and used his entrails to protect himself from Doom VanBadguy, eater of entrails."

Change the uninspired names and you have a brief synopsis of many a fantasy RPG. Kill a dragon, use its bones to make armor that kills bigger dragons :P. Anything can sound dumb or shallow when it's subjected to reducto ad absurdum.

A.T.
13-06-2013, 23:43
A.T. : Where did you get this Order Vespilla ? I'm quite interested :D. One of the RPG ?Dark Heresy sourcebook 'Blood of Martyrs', page 97, alternate hospitaller starting package.

Theocracity
13-06-2013, 23:57
Since you've not been able to show that the Grey Knights murdered the Sisters of Battle, or that they bathed in their blood, you've still failed to counter my assertion that your description of the Bloodtide incident is inaccurate.

Missed this post earlier, making my point in a much more succinct way. I don't have much to add beyond that, so I'll stop adding my portion of crap to the otherwise nice discussion of SoB fluff going on. :)

The Red Pilgrim
14-06-2013, 00:27
"They murdered them!"
"NUH UH, THEY WANTED TO DIE!"
"PROVE IT!"
"NO YOU!"
"WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS, AND IMAGINE TOGEEEEETHER!? /unicorndust"

172332

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
14-06-2013, 00:31
That's bad writing. There's no depth, no context to properly shape the story, nothing. We're given a small snippet of stupidity
Funny : it's exactly how I feel about the mention in Codex Necron that Trazyn the Infinite owns Sebastian Thor's head. But I got bashed into oblivion the last time I complained about it. If there was more detail, it could be cool or something. Here, it's such a bare-naked nothing it's useless, except to make the Ecclesiarchy and the Sisters look even worse…
The siege of Fenris by some Sisters that was in the Space Wolves codex is also so piece of bare-naked nothing, but I don't find it as irritating, though.
Why are they giving us so much hollow fluff ?

Dark Heresy sourcebook 'Blood of Martyrs', page 97, alternate hospitaller starting package.
Thanks !

Craftworld
14-06-2013, 01:34
"They murdered them!"
"NUH UH, THEY WANTED TO DIE!"
"PROVE IT!"
"NO YOU!"
"WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS, AND IMAGINE TOGEEEEETHER!? /unicorndust"

172332

The greatest recap ever to grace the pages of Warseer- 10/10, would read again.

Death Company
14-06-2013, 02:08
So because I can imagine a slightly more interesting story by creating some context with the information that's been given, I'm uneducated. Sure, that's not a jab.

You're reading into it too much. I assume that it must be that overabundance of creativity you have.


So because I'm engaged with the storytelling aspect of the hobby, and occasionally get irritated when people repeat reductive blather over and over again, I'm the bad guy?

If you're truly ''engaged with the story'', you should defend the setting when it's defiled by mediocre authors.

You're making yourself the bad-guy, because you're painting anyone who doesn't share your ''the fluff is what we make of it!'' hippie stance, as jaded, negative gamers. When a story lacks depth, or any context explaining what seems like extreme behavior, it's poorly done. You keep repeating that you dislike it, and that it's bad, but then in the same breath, you defend it, saying that when it's fleshed out more - by us as a community, of all things - it's apparently alright. The problem is, your 'fleshing out' is absolutely no different than the Chaos guys speculation, as to the Sisters stance regarding the incident.


I have no problem with criticizing the quality of the writing. It's crap, and I've said so many many times (as I apparently have to keep repeating). But let's not pretend that it's any different in purpose from any other particular piece of codex fluff. By your standards, even a well written snippet of fluff is useless to create games or scenarios around, because it's not our job to create something meaningful out of it.

Meaningful fluff doesn't require creative spins.


Codex fluff - even the bad examples of it - is just there to provide a kernel or a spark that the players build something around. They're not works of art - they're just evocative bits to explain why faction X wants to beat up faction Y, with a lot of information left out so that the players can build their own stories around it. That's what it all boils down to.

No, they're 'absolute fact' statements made by in-universe sources to give us a view of the setting, and ways to gauge the information we're given.


A lot of people apparently feel the need to interpret this particular piece of badly written, tone-deaf fluff in its most absurd light, and then treat that as if it's inviolably true with no possible other interpretation. That's a silly view, to me, not only because it ignores the point of codex fluff in the first place but it's also self-damaging. Do you like feeling negative about it, and ranting about how terrible it is? If that's enjoyable, great, I'm glad Mat Ward has given you some joy in the world. If not, you can just what I do with fluff that doesn't fit my personal tastes - ignore it, because it doesn't matter.

You're welcome to your opinion- as I'm welcome to think you're wrong.

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 05:24
The problem is, your 'fleshing out' is absolutely no different than the Chaos guys speculation, as to the Sisters stance regarding the incident.

Correct. Everyone is free to interpret the context of the fluff their own way. The difference is that the 'popular' interpretation is that the Grey Knights actions were indefensible and absurd, which is then followed by much griping about how absurd it is. My interpretation is that there is a possibility for a more complex story behind their actions, albeit one I've yet to be particularly interested in fleshing out in my personal hobby.

I just get annoyed when people pretend that their interpretation is the only one that exists.


Meaningful fluff doesn't require creative spins.

Sure it does. If I wanted to play a previously unmentioned regiment serving in the Third War of Armageddon, it would require creative spins even though that's a relatively well-written piece of fluff.


No, they're 'absolute fact' statements made by in-universe sources to give us a view of the setting, and ways to gauge the information we're given.

That's just not true on multiple levels. GW has said several times that their in-universe sources are unreliable. Plus, the ultimate point of GW writing anything about their factions is to get you interested enough to buy more plastic toys. At its root level, the Bloodtide is designed to provide a possible reason why a GK player would fight an SoB player.


You're welcome to your opinion- as I'm welcome to think you're wrong.

Let's agree to disagree :).

(sorry for continuing to crap on the thread :p).



Why are they giving us so much hollow fluff ?


Probably the same reason the Heavy Metal paint jobs seem to have gone downhill - because it's quicker and cheaper to do hackwork and spend the rest of the budget on the CAD designs and plastic molds. Just because I can see the intent behind the writing doesn't mean I can't call it out for what it is :P.

Death Company
14-06-2013, 06:10
I'll address the one thing worth doing so from your post, to keep this discussion short.


GW has said several times that their in-universe sources are unreliable.

Cite your source. Should be relatively easy, given that they said so 'multiple times'.

Keep in mind that this is not an in-game character source, but a narrator, with infinite knowledge.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 07:58
Cite your source. Should be relatively easy, given that they said so 'multiple times'.

Keep in mind that this is not an in-game character source, but a narrator, with infinite knowledge.
Is Gav Thorpe (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/) good enough for you?

To wit:


I think that Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 have a unique advantage in the realm of tie-in backgrounds: they exist to allow personal creativity. Both are backdrops, nothing more. They were created to allow people to collect armies of toy soldiers and fight battles with them. They were conceived with the idea of the player’s creative freedom being directed but not restricted.

...

Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy.

...

Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

Emphasis added.

Vet.Sister
14-06-2013, 14:48
Is Gav Thorpe (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/) good enough for you?

To wit:

I think that Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 have a unique advantage in the realm of tie-in backgrounds: they exist to allow personal creativity. Both are backdrops, nothing more. They were created to allow people to collect armies of toy soldiers and fight battles with them. They were conceived with the idea of the player’s creative freedom being directed but not restricted.

...

Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy.
...

Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

Emphasis added.

Don't mind me while I hijack this to return to the original posters question.
GK & SoB aren't Battle Brothers because the guidelines that GamesWorkshop produce/promote don't have them that way. Feel free to take GamesWorkshop's advice and "House Rule" it.

Death Company
14-06-2013, 17:23
Is Gav Thorpe (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/) good enough for you?

No, he really isn't.

Gav Thorpe is not Games Workshop, nor has he been involved in codex creation in some time.

Virulentus
14-06-2013, 17:35
Is Gav Thorpe (http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/) good enough for you?

That scumbag Thorpe would write some cop-out like that, to shift blame off of himself for that trashtastic Chaos codex he wrote.

I'm still blown away that he had the nerve to blame others in the codices development for the terrible book, he was 'just a victim'. The guy's a tool.

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 18:06
No, he really isn't.

Gav Thorpe is not Games Workshop, nor has he been involved in codex creation in some time.

Serious question here: in your opinion, what is GW's purpose, as a hobby modeling and wargame company, in hiring writers to write fluff? What good does it serve them as a business?

I'm asking because regardless of whether Gav currently works at GW or not, what he wrote speaks to the role of the background narrative as a business tool. The hobby aspect of GW's business has always meant that the customer has to put in creative work to get the full effect of the game. By making the background fluff a flexible element that can be modified to suit a player's preferences, they're allowing more personal engagement with the product as a whole - which leads to more driven and engaged customers (and therefore more money). I know I wouldn't be as interested in putting work into this hobby if I couldn't tell the story I wanted to tell, in the same way that I'd be less interested if I couldn't convert and paint my models how I want.

Gav was speaking to that idea - getting players involved by giving them ideas and then letting them tell their own stories. People are likely to spend more time (and money) on something they feel personally involved in. I think that's representative of GW's intentions, whether or not Gav in particular is writing for them.

Do you have a different view of why GW spends time writing fluff?

Death Company
14-06-2013, 18:30
Serious question here: in your opinion, what is GW's purpose, as a hobby modeling and wargame company, in hiring writers to write fluff? What good does it serve them as a business?

Serious question: Where are those quotes I asked for? Surely, you wouldn't have just talked out your *** to make a point, right?

Once you have show the common courtesy of replying to my question, I'll do the same regarding yours.

Perhaps your pal Damocles can help you out, he's adept at citing sources I hear.

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 18:34
Serious question: Where are those quotes I asked for? Surely, you wouldn't have just talked out your *** to make a point, right?

I didn't feel the need to requote them. Whether or not you like Gav Thorpe as a person, he was a senior figure in GW and his comments are indicative of their ethos.

Edit: He's pretty good at that, yes, but I have a feeling he's lost interest in replying to your trolling attitude.

Death Company
14-06-2013, 18:39
I didn't feel the need to requote them. Whether or not you like Gav Thorpe as a person, he was a senior figure in GW and his comments are indicative of their ethos.

Edit: He's pretty good at that, yes, but I have a feeling he's lost interest in replying to your trolling attitude.

Considering the extent of my posting has been calling you out, for your amusing view on my supposed responsibilities as a hobbyist, I can't imagine how I'm trolling.

Especially given that this entire discussion was started by his 'That's not what it said actually' baiting, his opinion couldn't mean less, as of the moment.


Nice attempt to shift the weight of proof off of yourself though. Another poster cites an outdated relic of the hobby, whose most recent blog post is even specifically noting how he feels like an outsider in the hobby, given that he's no longer an insider- but he's clearly a reliable, trusty-worthy source for Games Workshop's stance regarding codex fluff.

I've grown tired of this mediocre argument, Theo. I'd advise that you don't make claims that you can't readily back up from now on. It can be problematic when you're asked for proof.

That said, I'll let this 'argument' die.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 18:44
Gav Thorpe is not Games Workshop, nor has he been involved in codex creation in some time.
Is a longtime senior writer an insufficient source when it comes to representing Games Workshop's policy towards canon?

Do you think Gav Thorpe misrepresented Games Workshop's policy towards canon during his time there?

Do you have evidence that Games Workshop's policy towards canon has changed since Gav Thorpe was a senior writer?

Death Company
14-06-2013, 18:50
Is a longtime senior writer an insufficient source when it comes to representing Games Workshop's policy towards canon?

Did you miss where I said as much? He hasn't been involved in the inner-workings of the company since Chaos' fourth edition codex.


Do you think Gav Thorpe misrepresented Games Workshop's policy towards canon during his time there?

Absolutely.


Do you have evidence that Games Workshop's policy towards canon has changed since Gav Thorpe was a senior writer?

I don't require evidence, as the weight of proof isn't on me.

Theo clearly stated that Games Workshop has specifically noted their intent regarding codex fluff as a company, "many times". Still waiting on that.


You can't be a stickler for proper citation when it's serving your argument, then become flippant, and avoid a straight answer when it's requested of you. Hypocrisy doesn't fly here.

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 18:53
Considering the extent of my posting has been calling you out, for your amusing view on my supposed responsibilities as a hobbyist, I can't imagine how I'm trolling.

Especially given that this entire discussion was started by his 'That's not what it said actually' baiting, his opinion couldn't mean less, as of the moment.


I apologize. I didn't realize that having a different perspective on the hobby was somehow trolling.



Nice attempt to shift the weight of proof off of yourself though. Another poster cites an outdated relic of the hobby, whose most recent blog post is even specifically noting how he feels like an outsider in the hobby, given that he's no longer an insider- but he's clearly a reliable, trusty-worthy source for Games Workshop's stance regarding codex fluff.

I've grown tired of this mediocre argument, Theo. I'd advise that you don't make claims that you can't readily back up from now on. It can be problematic when you're asked for proof.

So someone beats me to punch with providing the quote overnight, and because I didn't feel like spamming the thread by repeating it and instead want to move along and discuss the merits of its content, the proof doesn't exist? I know you're not that dense.


That said, I'll let this 'argument' die.

I'm still interested in discussing the topic of GW's purpose in writing fluff, if you like to stop evading my question.

Edit:


Theo clearly stated that Games Workshop has specifically noted their intent regarding codex fluff as a company, "many times". Still waiting on that.

You can't be a stickler for proper citation when it's serving your argument, then become flippant, and avoid a straight answer when it's requested of you. Hypocrisy doesn't fly here.

I may have exaggerated a bit with 'many,' but I considered several comments by a former senior member (which are consistent with GW's practices before and after his term with the company) revealing. Whether you agree or not is different, and that's what I was trying to elaborate on.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 18:57
Absolutely.
Care to expand on that?

Death Company
14-06-2013, 18:58
I apologize. I didn't realize that having a different perspective on the hobby was somehow trolling.

You just made that very claim a moment ago about me, because I don't share your stance. Your hypocrisy is reaching staggering new heights.


So someone beats me to punch with providing the quote overnight, and because I didn't feel like spamming the thread by repeating it and instead want to move along and discuss the merits of its content, the proof doesn't exist? I know you're not that dense.

Someone made a mediocre argument on your behalf, and you clung to it like a bloody life-raft, hoping that I'd stop asking for citation that you don't have.


I'm still interested in discussing the topic of GW's purpose in writing fluff, if you like to stop evading my question.

The only thing that interests you, is avoiding what's asked of you.

As said before, you cannot expect others to behave one way, while you behave another. Cite - your - sources.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 19:17
I don't require evidence, as the weight of proof isn't on me.
Actually, it is.

You've been provided with the citation you asked for. Since you've rejected it, the ball is in your court as to why. So far your only valid reason is that its author no longer works for GW. But you've provided no evidence that policy has changed in the interim. Your assertion that Thorpe "absolutely" misrepresented policy also requires evidence not in the record.

It is hypocritical- not to mention impolite- to continue to demand what has already been provided without proper reason.


Someone made a mediocre argument on your behalf, and you clung to it like a bloody life-raft, hoping that I'd stop asking for citation that you don't have.
Do you have an argument in there?

Spare Change
14-06-2013, 19:32
You've been provided with the citation you asked for.

Er, what?..

That's not what he asked for, at all. He asked for a quote - or one of the many, that Theorcracity claimed exist out there - by Games Workshop, regarding that their codex fluff scales wildly from mediocre to excellent, and they're ok with that, because it's your job to pick and choose what is real and not, and to add depth to the blurbs.

You, however, linked the blog of a writer - of arguably worse writing skill than Mat Ward - to represent the stance of the company as a whole. This is akin to asking William King for his views on where they're taking the Heresy novels.

There was a thread a year ago or so, where Aaron Dembski-Bowden admitted that his stance regarding the Blood Ravens origins was admittedly of little worth, because as it's not the company's official stance, it's nothing more than the biased opinion of an employee. Some thing you seem unable to grasp.

TL;DR - Thorpe's views are as relevant as Tom in accounting.

Challenge Accepted
14-06-2013, 19:40
I think both parties need to step back, and realize that they're fighting over something that is based entirely on opinion, and no source will matter either way.

Theocracity wants to make-up depth, and pretend the fluff doesn't suck. Let him.

Spare Change wants to trash talk poorly written work; he's free to.

Why do either of you expect to win a 'debate' regarding something that has no right answer?

Spare Change
14-06-2013, 19:49
I think both parties need to step back, and realize that they're fighting over something that is based entirely on opinion, and no source will matter either way.

Theocracity wants to make-up depth, and pretend the fluff doesn't suck. Let him.

Spare Change wants to trash talk poorly written work; he's free to.

Why do either of you expect to win a 'debate' regarding something that has no right answer?

They're welcome to search for depth that isn't there- that's on them. I have no issue with that at all.

This entire thread has become absolutely bizarre. Theocracity and Damocles informed Crown and I that we're not allowed - or 'doing the hobby right', apparently - when we speculate negatively about poorly written fluff; it's only 'correct' when it's positively done, and you're seeking depth that doesn't exist naturally.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 19:55
That's not what he asked for, at all. He asked for a quote - or one of the many, that Theorcracity claimed exist out there - by Games Workshop, regarding that their codex fluff scales wildly from mediocre to excellent, and they're ok with that, because it's your job to pick and choose what is real and not, and to add depth to the blurbs.

You, however, linked the blog of a writer - of arguably worse writing skill than Mat Ward - to represent the stance of the company as a whole. This is akin to asking William King for his views on where they're taking the Heresy novels.
I would submit that your standard of evidence is unreasonable, and based on an obtuse reading of Theocracity's argument. Games Workshop is composed of its employees. Rejecting the statements, unofficial or not, of those employees re: company policy requires one to assert that they do not understand their own job, or that they are misleading us. Theocracity accepts those statements; you do not. I am curious why not, other than your opinions on the quality of Thorpe and Ward's prose.


There was a thread a year ago or so, where Aaron Dembski-Bowden admitted that his stance regarding the Blood Ravens origins was admittedly of little worth, because as it's not the company's official stance, it's nothing more than the biased opinion of an employee.
That's irrelevant, as there are portions of fluff that are fixed. The origin of the Blood Ravens may well be one of them. I don't know myself.


TL;DR - Thorpe's views are as relevant as Tom in accounting.
Whence cometh fluff, if not from the writers?

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 19:56
They're welcome to search for depth that isn't there- that's on them. I have no issue with that at all.

This entire thread has become absolutely bizarre. Theocracity and Damocles informed Crown and I that we're not allowed - or 'doing the hobby right', apparently - when we speculate negatively about poorly written fluff; it's only 'correct' when it's positively done, and you're seeking depth that doesn't exist naturally.

I took issue with the 'absolutist' view that there is only one possible interpretation of the fluff. I apologize for offending anyone who took that as some kind of critique of their interests.

I am interested in the purpose behind the fluff, though. All writing has an audience and a purpose, and isn't judged the same way - which is why children's books aren't held to the same standards as Nobel-prize literature. My personal view is that GW writes fluff in order to give hooks for players to build on along with their hobby (whether its well written or not is irrelevant - the purpose of writing and the quality of the output are not linked). At least one senior personality at the company has said as much, and I think it' a reasonable view from a business perspective.

If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it.

Lord Damocles
14-06-2013, 19:57
This entire thread has become absolutely bizarre. Theocracity and Damocles informed Crown and I that we're not allowed - or 'doing the hobby right', apparently - when we speculate negatively about poorly written fluff; it's only 'correct' when it's positively done, and you're seeking depth that doesn't exist naturally.
No I didn't.

You didn't present any speculation - you simply misquoted/mis-represented the 'Return of the Bloodtide' background paragraph; stating as fact that the Grey Knights 'murderd' the Sisters of Battle and 'bathed in their blood' - claims which you have been unable to support.

I really have no other interest than to illustrate that the claims made about the piece of background in question do not match what the background actually says.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 20:01
This entire thread has become absolutely bizarre. Theocracity and Damocles informed Crown and I that we're not allowed - or 'doing the hobby right', apparently - when we speculate negatively about poorly written fluff; it's only 'correct' when it's positively done, and you're seeking depth that doesn't exist naturally.
Neither of those things were said.

edit: post 420.

Spare Change
14-06-2013, 20:18
I would submit that your standard of evidence is unreasonable

That's not all that surprising, given that it's a source that you provided, that is being regarded as moot.


I took issue with the 'absolutist' view that there is only one possible interpretation of the fluff. I apologize for offending anyone who took that as some kind of critique of their interests.

I argued that Crown Axe's version of the events wasn't far off the actual story- as they weren't.

Damocles decided to split hairs, and argue that the Sisters apparently wanted to die - or at least, we can't say for certain as to the opposite - so therefore, we can't justify arguing that they were murdered. Now, I don't know about you, but should I enter your home, and 'turn my blade upon' your loved ones, you'd probably not give much consideration to me claiming that you 'couldn't prove' that they didn't want it done. It's a pretty bizarre argument to take, and seems to be one made out of spite, for having been called out for defense of the work.


No I didn't.

You didn't present any speculation - you simply misquoted/mis-represented the 'Return of the Bloodtide' background paragraph; stating as fact that the Grey Knights 'murderd' the Sisters of Battle and 'bathed in their blood' - claims which you have been unable to support.

I really have no other interest than to illustrate that the claims made about the piece of background in question do not match what the background actually says.

Le sigh.

Craftworld
14-06-2013, 20:26
Damocles decided to split hairs, and argue that the Sisters apparently wanted to die - or at least, we can't say for certain as to the opposite - so therefore, we can't justify arguing that they were murdered. Now, I don't know about you, but should I enter your home, and 'turn my blade upon' your loved ones, you'd probably not give much consideration to me claiming that you 'couldn't prove' that they didn't want it done. It's a pretty bizarre argument to take, and seems to be one made out of spite, for having been called out for defense of the work.

As an outsider, with no dog in this fight, I kind of saw it this way as well.

Lord Damocles painted this picture as if the representation put forth was outlandish, and hyperbolic. When shown that it's almost identical to the actual blurb, he looks for the absolutely smallest differences to base an argument upon. The application process of the blood, and the unknown factor of mind-state, regarding the sisters before they were killed.

Makes for a poor debate all around. The rest of this thread has been people feeling salty, puffing up their chests, actually saying very little, with a LOT of text.

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 20:33
I argued that Crown Axe's version of the events wasn't far off the actual story- as they weren't.

Damocles decided to split hairs, and argue that the Sisters apparently wanted to die - or at least, we can't say for certain as to the opposite - so therefore, we can't justify arguing that they were murdered. Now, I don't know about you, but should I enter your home, and 'turn my blade upon' your loved ones, you'd probably not give much consideration to me claiming that you 'couldn't prove' that they didn't want it done. It's a pretty bizarre argument to take, and seems to be one made out of spite, for having been called out for defense of the work.


In the movie 'Shawn of the Dead,' (spoiler alert), the main character shoots his own mother in the head with a rifle and kills her.

Now, the context of that moment was that she had been bitten by a zombie, and had been turned in to one. Since they were locked in a pub and surrounded by zombies, that was the only choice he had, and it was an emotional moment where he felt awful about it.

The context provides a better, deeper and more in-character description of what happened than the summary provided.

I'm fine with the summary of the Bloodtide being criticized as poorly written, and even that the way its written points towards a particularly tone-deaf conclusion. But it is not the only possible way that it can be determined, as it leaves out some very important details that can change it. My argument is that the ambiguity is intended in purpose if not in execution.

Spare Change
14-06-2013, 20:40
In the movie 'Shawn of the Dead,' (spoiler alert), the main character shoots his own mother in the head with a rifle and kills her.

Now, the context of that moment was that she had been bitten by a zombie, and had been turned in to one. Since they were locked in a pub and surrounded by zombies, that was the only choice he had, and it was an emotional moment where he felt awful about it.

The context provides a better, deeper and more in-character description of what happened than the summary provided.

I'm fine with the summary of the Bloodtide being criticized as poorly written, and even that the way its written points towards a particularly tone-deaf conclusion. But it is not the only possible way that it can be determined, as it leaves out some very important details that can change it. My argument is that the ambiguity is intended in purpose if not in execution.

It's an emotional moment, truly. Surprisingly so, for a comedy.

That being said, are you saying that you believe that the bloodtide, and other blurbs like it (Mortarion heart-carving, Draigo wandering the warp undefeatable) are done poorly, intentionally? As if being painfully tone-deaf and vague, is the only way to allow the reader to make their own version of events?

Do you think that Games Workshop thinks so little of our imaginations, that they need to offer us work of this quality?

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 20:43
That's not all that surprising, given that it's a source that you provided, that is being regarded as moot.
If you wish to continue simply asserting that my source is moot, without answering my questions why that might be, then I think we might be at an impasse.


The rest of this thread has been people feeling salty, puffing up their chests, actually saying very little, with a LOT of text.
the_internet_[FULL_HD1080].zip

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 20:46
It's an emotional moment, truly. Surprisingly so, for a comedy.

That being said, are you saying that you believe that the bloodtide, and other blurbs like it (Mortarion heart-carving, Draigo wandering the warp, undefeatable) are done poorly, intentionally? As it being painfully tone-deaf and vague allows the reader to make their own version of events?

Not at all. I think all codex fluff is written with the intent of ambiguity so that players can engage with their own creativity. That's the purpose. Whether its written in an evocative manner, or conforms to the reader's interests or expectations, is the execution. Ward's writing fails in the former and isn't popular in the latter - but GW's ethos advocates customizing fluff you don't agree with (which is in their business interests), which can resolve the latter. Doesn't do much for the former, though :p.

maze ironheart
14-06-2013, 20:54
I find it funny no one finds it weird orks and guardsmen can team up SUPER ULTRA FACEPALM TO THE FACE to the dum ass who came up with that one.

Spare Change
14-06-2013, 20:57
Not at all. I think all codex fluff is written with the intent of ambiguity. That's the purpose. Whether its written in an evocative manner, or conforms to the reader's interests or expectations, is the execution. Ward's writing fails in the former and isn't popular in the latter - but GW's ethos advocates customizing fluff you don't agree with (which is in their business interests), which can resolve the latter. Doesn't do much for the former, though :p.

This isn't simply ambiguous, though. These stories don't allow you to see anything past the poorly described scene that has just taken place. You're given bizarre version of events that clash with the rest of the setting as a whole.

There should be a slight grey-zone; it should not be blinding.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 20:57
I find it funny no one finds it weird orks and guardsmen can team up SUPER ULTRA FACEPALM TO THE FACE to the dum ass who came up with that one.
Ork freebooters and Blood Axe mercenaries- and the stupid/desperate/unscrupulous Imperial governors who sometimes hire them- have been an established part of the background for decades.

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 20:57
I find it funny no one finds it weird orks and guardsmen can team up SUPER ULTRA FACEPALM TO THE FACE to the dum ass who came up with that one.

What about Blood Axe Orks? ;)

Konovalev
14-06-2013, 20:59
I find it funny no one finds it weird orks and guardsmen can team up SUPER ULTRA FACEPALM TO THE FACE to the dum ass who came up with that one.

Which codex was that in? A Ward one? Because if Warseer has taught me anything, it's that only Matt Wards fluff writing is open to criticism. All other codex author fluff writings are sacrosanct.

maze ironheart
14-06-2013, 21:02
Really thats why Orks can team up with guardsmen cause one tribe is a mercenary tribe that is just lazy.

Formerly Wu
14-06-2013, 21:10
Really thats why Orks can team up with guardsmen cause one tribe is a mercenary tribe that is just lazy.
Okay.

We done here?

Theocracity
14-06-2013, 21:11
This isn't simply ambiguous, though. These stories don't allow you to see anything past the poorly described scene that has just taken place. You're given bizarre version of events that clash with the rest of the setting as a whole.

There should be a slight grey-zone; it should not be blinding.

Entirely agree. Ward's lousy execution only leaves us with a fig-leaf of ambiguity - but that's not the same as saying that its not there.

Personally, I prefer to spend the mental effort building out the 'unlikely' scenario than complaining about the 'bizarre' scenario. Or better, since I don't collect either army, mostly ignoring it.

Now that I've spent so much time thinking about it, though, I'm pretty sure I could write a decent story fragment that explains the situation in a 'cool' way without contradicting any of the provided text. I got the framework in my head already - maybe if I get some free time I'll bang it out :p.



Really thats why Orks can team up with guardsmen cause one tribe is a mercenary tribe that is just lazy.

If that's what you want to call it, sure. If you want a classic fluff example, look to the Third War of Armageddon (or maybe the Second now that I think about it), where the governor turned traitor and collaborated with Ghazzie.

The Red Pilgrim
14-06-2013, 23:45
Which codex was that in? A Ward one? Because if Warseer has taught me anything, it's that only Matt Wards fluff writing is open to criticism. All other codex author fluff writings are sacrosanct.

I've seen plenty of tears regarding Kelly's Wolves. It's just that Ward has a gift for writing terrible fluff, so naturally, you'll hear about it more often.

A.T.
15-06-2013, 11:34
Because if Warseer has taught me anything, it's that only Matt Wards fluff writing is open to criticism.Here is an example of why Wards fluff is open to criticism -

Miguel Caron (studio head): As an example we won’t have the Sisters of Battle at launch. We love them, but the reason why they won’t be playable at launch is because it’s almost impossible to make the kind of power they have fit the lore and make it fun at the same time. They always end up being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/



(in fairness the real reason is just going to be project scope - it's just a shame that wards crap is what floats to the surface for PR purposes)

maze ironheart
15-06-2013, 12:23
Okay.

We done here?

Not by a longshot I just find it stupid when they make an enemy team up with an enemy.


Entirely agree. Ward's lousy execution only leaves us with a fig-leaf of ambiguity - but that's not the same as saying that its not there.

Personally, I prefer to spend the mental effort building out the 'unlikely' scenario than complaining about the 'bizarre' scenario. Or better, since I don't collect either army, mostly ignoring it.

Now that I've spent so much time thinking about it, though, I'm pretty sure I could write a decent story fragment that explains the situation in a 'cool' way without contradicting any of the provided text. I got the framework in my head already - maybe if I get some free time I'll bang it out :p.




If that's what you want to call it, sure. If you want a classic fluff example, look to the Third War of Armageddon (or maybe the Second now that I think about it), where the governor turned traitor and collaborated with Ghazzie.

I find this stupid like I found it funny when I played a World eater army allied with a Tau army it was led by Kharn for goodness sake he would sooner cut the taus head of then join them.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-06-2013, 21:47
Miguel Caron (studio head): As an example we won’t have the Sisters of Battle at launch. We love them, but the reason why they won’t be playable at launch is because it’s almost impossible to make the kind of power they have fit the lore and make it fun at the same time. They always end up being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons.
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/
Oh really ? Gee, I guess I won't play their voluntarily unbalanced pay-to-win game, then. But anyway, we all know video game players love to be rolfstomped every time and come back for more, so we can be pretty sure you'll still find enough eldar player to outnumber space marines, right ? Else, since how guardian compares to space marine, and even aspect warrior against marine specialist, I'm pretty sure the tyranid are going to be very very attracted by space marines…

Theocracity
15-06-2013, 22:17
Oh really ? Gee, I guess I won't play their voluntarily unbalanced pay-to-win game, then. But anyway, we all know video game players love to be rolfstomped every time and come back for more, so we can be pretty sure you'll still find enough eldar player to outnumber space marines, right ? Else, since how guardian compares to space marine, and even aspect warrior against marine specialist, I'm pretty sure the tyranid are going to be very very attracted by space marines…

Heh, I was wondering the same thing. As soon as I heard it was based around PvP with four factions, I said to myself "So I guess this game's gonna be Space Marines vs Orks then...." :p. From the sounds of it though there are bots, so maybe they can just turn up the NPC spawns if a faction has trouble Oh I see what you mean by Tyranid, hadn't read that far in the interview.

As for why he's making cracks about the Sisters in his comments?


My team is made of true, true, true hardcore fans of the license....

Pretty sure it's because the dev team's been exposed to the same silly memes as all of us. Pretty sure they'll be a quest called "Drive me closer, I want to hit it with my sword" and a cutscene where an Ultramarine uppercuts an Avatar....

Swordsman
16-06-2013, 01:31
and a cutscene where an Ultramarine uppercuts an Avatar....

I demand this.

The Red Pilgrim
16-06-2013, 01:41
I demand this.

Every time you log in, an Avatar dies. This game will go places.