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Fade6
12-06-2013, 19:54
When looking at the nephilim jetfighter in comparison to the last two releases Tau and Eldar flyers, is it all that bad anymore. Excluding the Helldrack, for a 6th edition release flyer is it all that bad. Or do people still think it is crap.

Hendarion
12-06-2013, 20:07
I'm not sure which of these are questions and which are just statements. Considering the points of the Hemlock, I'd rather say the Nephilim really isn't bad at all.

Lord Damocles
12-06-2013, 20:09
It's not as bad as it seems to have a reputation for being.

It pumps out a lot of S6 shots, which makes it a decent anti-flier unit as long as you're not facing the absurd (AV12) Helldrake/Storm Raven. It'll also chew up light/medium vehicles like nobodies business.

Zanzibarthefirst
12-06-2013, 20:23
If it had access to the same avenger bolt cannon as the Avenger fighter from FW it would be a lot better.
Compared to the hemlock I think most flyers looks pretty.

Hendarion
12-06-2013, 20:31
Compared to the hemlock I think most flyers looks pretty.
It does look pretty - better than the bunny-ears-Nightshade at least. But the rules compared to the point-cost are just a bizarre WTF-moment.

Horus Lupercal
12-06-2013, 20:38
Im likely to add one to my Dark Angles on look alone. It is just badass. Got to have one in my army.

Grand Master Raziel
12-06-2013, 21:00
It's a bit overpriced, and it's rules don't line up with its fluff - it'd struggle to take down the AV12 flyers in the system. Both of these are relatively easily correctable - the points could be brought down, and its missiles could have their strength buffed. The former might even happen via errata. All that said, it's a gorgeous model. I've got one, and I intend to field it despite what I consider to be it's drawbacks, just because the model is so sexy.

Zanzibarthefirst
12-06-2013, 21:41
oh yeah I forgot at the crappy missiles. Give them hellstrike missiles and be done with it; maybe not as good as blood missiles IIRC but still better than what they've got now.

Grndhog89
12-06-2013, 22:08
Just make the Blacksword missiles a variant of flakk missiles (Str 7 AP 4) and I'd be happy.

Is the Hemlock really that bad, rules and points-wise? I thought the Nephilim couldn't have its crown of "worst flyer ever" taken from it. Whats wrong with the Eldar flyer? I don't play Eldar so I haven't paid much attention to this release.

Ozendorph
13-06-2013, 01:00
Hemlock mission is completely different. Anti-troops and psychological warfare. It forces moral tests, removes fearless, forces re-rolls of successful moral tests, causes pinning (D-scythes pin, right?)...

Vedar
13-06-2013, 01:09
The Hemlock you really need to build your army around and it might do ok. Even the mighty Space Marines can be pinned or fear can make them run away,.. they just always regroup. The Eldar can put out a lot of pinning checks, Snipers, missiles, powers. I'd say it should probably be 40 points cheaper or have some kind of way to survive wanting to be 12" from the enemy. I myself will never field one as I want my Hunter to blow other aircraft out of the sky or smoke a land raider every turn.

NemoSD
13-06-2013, 01:16
Just make the Blacksword missiles a variant of flakk missiles (Str 7 AP 4) and I'd be happy.

Is the Hemlock really that bad, rules and points-wise? I thought the Nephilim couldn't have its crown of "worst flyer ever" taken from it. Whats wrong with the Eldar flyer? I don't play Eldar so I haven't paid much attention to this release.

The Hemlock does not kill all who stand before it, thus it is bad according the internet. It is one of our more unique units, and one that is good. It is not super killy, although it can be, and it can work a number at scaring dudes off objectives, or getting rid of bubble wraps so your assault charge can get to the creamy filling.

Wiseman
13-06-2013, 03:30
I've been running a pair of Nephillim, and they work great together I've been finding.

Grndhog89
13-06-2013, 03:44
Wouldn't those valuable FA slots be better spent on a unit of Black Knights and Dark Shroud?

Kakapo42
13-06-2013, 03:54
I think the problem with the Nephilim is that people expect it to be a superweapon that can bring down anything that flies, instead of what it is: a fighter. In real life during the cold war most fighter jets weren't designed to engage everything successfully, instead some (I'm looking at you MiG 25) were meant to shoot down big slow-turning bombers, others were meant to go after smaller more agile fighters, while others still were fighter-bombers that weren't the most effective at either but could do some ground-attack work at the same time. I think the 6th edition design idea is the same. Some aircraft, like the Nephilim, aren't meant to go after big AV12+ fliers, instead their role is to engage lighter aircraft and leave the Helldrakes and Stormravens for the heavier ground-based AAA. That's always been my take on it at least.

EDIT: Also, can't the Nephilim be given a hefty strength 9 lascannon to crack open AV12?

Tzeentch Loyalist
13-06-2013, 04:05
TL lascannon coms standard. AMB is an upgrade.

Surgency
13-06-2013, 04:18
Wouldn't those valuable FA slots be better spent on a unit of Black Knights and Dark Shroud?

some people don't worry about what the intarwebz says is the most efficient units in each slot, and sometimes we (I identify with the aforementioned people) want to play things that are different than what the aforementioned intarwebz says is the only things we should play

MagicHat
13-06-2013, 05:37
Some aircraft, like the Nephilim, aren't meant to go after big AV12+ fliers, instead their role is to engage lighter aircraft and leave the Helldrakes and Stormravens for the heavier ground-based AAA. That's always been my take on it at least.

EDIT: Also, can't the Nephilim be given a hefty strength 9 lascannon to crack open AV12?

The heavier ground-based AA is Flakk missile devastators. Or Quad/Icarus guns.
Really not great options for anti AV12. If you have a quad, 4 flakk missiles and a Nephilim, you have a reasonable shot at downing a Heldrake in one round. The Heldrake have a good chance of taking down the devastators or the Nephilim. (or both in the same turn...)
AV10-11 is a lot more reasonable to deal with though.

It doesn't help that the DA fliers are the only 6th edition fliers with no way to circumvent the mobility limitations without sacrificing firepower. The tau and the heldrake have turrets, the eldar fliers have vector dancer.

Individual8580
13-06-2013, 05:41
It's lame against older flyers which everyone fields and decent against the newer flyers which no-one fields.

Hendarion
13-06-2013, 06:08
The Hemlock you really need to build your army around and it might do ok. Even the mighty Space Marines can be pinned or fear can make them run away,.. they just always regroup. The Eldar can put out a lot of pinning checks, Snipers, missiles, powers. I'd say it should probably be 40 points cheaper or have some kind of way to survive wanting to be 12" from the enemy. I myself will never field one as I want my Hunter to blow other aircraft out of the sky or smoke a land raider every turn.
How can you fear Space Marines? They aren't fearless, so the Hemlock can't remove that rule. ATSKNF makes Marines ignore Fear. That's a totally different rule. And for nearly 200 points, I think that isn't even worth thinking of at AV10 all around. The special "re-roll successfull LD's" is also only within 12" and that's the death-zone for an AV-10 flyer.

NemoSD
13-06-2013, 06:32
How can you fear Space Marines? They aren't fearless, so the Hemlock can't remove that rule. ATSKNF makes Marines ignore Fear. That's a totally different rule. And for nearly 200 points, I think that isn't even worth thinking of at AV10 all around. The special "re-roll successfull LD's" is also only within 12" and that's the death-zone for an AV-10 flyer.

ATSKNF only means they automatically regroup if they break from a fear test/leadership/morale.

Wiseman
13-06-2013, 07:15
ATSKNF also means they ignore fear entirely.

Hendarion
13-06-2013, 07:18
ATSKNF only means they automatically regroup if they break from a fear test/leadership/morale.
You might want to re-read it. It makes them ignore Fear entirely.

Spiney Norman
13-06-2013, 07:24
I think the problem with the Nephilim is that people expect it to be a superweapon that can bring down anything that flies, instead of what it is: a fighter. In real life during the cold war most fighter jets weren't designed to engage everything successfully, instead some (I'm looking at you MiG 25) were meant to shoot down big slow-turning bombers, others were meant to go after smaller more agile fighters, while others still were fighter-bombers that weren't the most effective at either but could do some ground-attack work at the same time. I think the 6th edition design idea is the same. Some aircraft, like the Nephilim, aren't meant to go after big AV12+ fliers, instead their role is to engage lighter aircraft and leave the Helldrakes and Stormravens for the heavier ground-based AAA. That's always been my take on it at least.

EDIT: Also, can't the Nephilim be given a hefty strength 9 lascannon to crack open AV12?

The problem with the Lascannon is you're relying on a single shot (twin-linked though it might be) to take out the opposing flyer before it turns around and blows you out of the sky. The Nephilim isn't awful, but you have to get very lucky with the Lascannon to take out an enemy flyer, especially when most other enemy flyers pack enough firepower to bring down a plane in a single round. The missiles are a joke btw, if you get one glance between the lot of them you're doing well. If they'd made the S7/8 the Neph would have been a competent choice, but at the end of the day it is basically a flying Icarus for twice the points.

The flyers I see most commonly are Necron scythes, chaos bale drakes and IG vendettas, even though the bale drake doesn't have any weapons that can hurt flyers its vector strike is usually enough to end my Nephilim, and it doesn't stand a chance against the St 7 volley from night scythes or the triple las of a vendetta. Likewise the crimson hunter puts out 4 st8 shots, which is good even vs A11.

NurglesRot
13-06-2013, 08:00
The flyers I see most commonly are Necron scythes, chaos bale drakes and IG vendettas, even though the bale drake doesn't have any weapons that can hurt flyers its vector strike is usually enough to end my Nephilim, and it doesn't stand a chance against the St 7 volley from night scythes or the triple las of a vendetta. Likewise the crimson hunter puts out 4 st8 shots, which is good even vs A11.

The Heldrake can pump out 4 S8 shots also, but no one ever takes the Hades Autocannon because it's not the 'optimal' choice. I've tried a Heldrake a few times with the cannon and it can be quite brutal - when it hits. The BS3 can really hurt sometimes, especially when you need the shots to count.

Throw in Daemonforge and the Heldrake can shoot 4 shots at S8 rerolling armour pen. Quite reliable to take down a flyer, Tau and Eldar flyers cringe at the thought. Also, I've found that when people see a Heldrake without the Baleflamer they just shrug it off and ignore it becuase it can't hurt their marines in cover - which they soon regret when their flyers and tanks are all dead :p

Kakapo42
13-06-2013, 08:25
The problem with the Lascannon is you're relying on a single shot (twin-linked though it might be) to take out the opposing flyer before it turns around and blows you out of the sky. The Nephilim isn't awful, but you have to get very lucky with the Lascannon to take out an enemy flyer, especially when most other enemy flyers pack enough firepower to bring down a plane in a single round. The missiles are a joke btw, if you get one glance between the lot of them you're doing well. If they'd made the S7/8 the Neph would have been a competent choice, but at the end of the day it is basically a flying Icarus for twice the points.

This is true, however penetrating AV12 on a 4+ (and glancing on a 3) and AP2 means that any shots that do manage to connect with the enemy flier are likely to do some serious damage. I see it as a bit like using the old pre-update Broadsides as anti-air units. The railguns might lack skyfire, making them inaccurate, but if they do manage to hit then the flier is in for a world of hurt. Perhaps the same applies for the Nephilim's lascannon?

Spiney Norman
13-06-2013, 09:32
This is true, however penetrating AV12 on a 4+ (and glancing on a 3) and AP2 means that any shots that do manage to connect with the enemy flier are likely to do some serious damage. I see it as a bit like using the old pre-update Broadsides as anti-air units. The railguns might lack skyfire, making them inaccurate, but if they do manage to hit then the flier is in for a world of hurt. Perhaps the same applies for the Nephilim's lascannon?

I guess that's true, but you only have a 33% chance of actually destroying the enemy flyer, in any other situation it can fly off the table to reappear and apha strike you next turn, unless you do get that coveted 5+ all you've really done is strike a hull point (unless weapon destroyed). Dark Eldar flicker fields and the drakes natural resilience to damage complicate it even further. Still, even assuming a hit, a 50% chance of pen, compounded by a 33% chance of destroying means any given las cannon shot has a 1/6 chance of killing the enemy flyer, before you take into account any saves etc. For me that just isn't good enough compared to the quantity of AA shots on other flyers in the game. The crimson hunter is case in point, 20pts cheaper and 4 str 8 shots, two of them lances.

I think what hurts the most is that the storm talon has the same primary weapon, with a far superior secondary weapon, and the same armour but costs a whole lot cheaper.

OuroborosTriumphant
13-06-2013, 14:45
Yes, the Nephilim is still pretty bad. Even if you take away the 4 big "problem fliers" which most people concede as being a bit too good (the Vendetta/Valkyrie, Stormraven, Helldrake and Night-Scythe/Doom Scythe), the Nephilim is still a notable cut below the Stormtalon and the Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar fliers (which seem to me to be pretty well-balanced as a set, within reason). The Razorshark is probably the weakest of the non-Nephilim fliers and it notably out-performs the Nephilim against AV11 and 12 targets, and matches it, more or less, against AV10 targets, while being cheaper.

The Nephilim is simply very bad. I wonder if it at one point in playtesting it had a real Avenger and proved too powerful so got over-nerfed. Gorgeous model though.

Haravikk
13-06-2013, 15:54
The lineup of flyers (excluding 5th edition holdovers) is actually pretty interesting; the Helldrake is really just a tough Flamestorm cannon delivery system, but it pays quite a lot of points for that trick and against terminators or hordes its not quite as good, its ability to fight other flyers is also very limited though vector strike is certainly better than nothing.
The Dark Talon is a really good support flyer for hitting ground targets, as hurricane bolters + Strength 5 blast can really mince hordes, and still has a good chance of putting some hurt on other units, plus you've got the stasis bomb for good synergy with another unit charging in. The Nephilim is more of a general purpose flyer than strictly an anti-flyer, but it is however very effective against Dark Eldar and Eldar flyers, but otherwise it seems most useful against more elite ground targets.
The new Eldar flyers are true glass cannons, though I don't really understand why they have no defensive options at all, but D-Scythes on the Wraith Fighter and strong shots on the Crimson Hunter make them both very good, if they can survive. Their main vulnerability is bolter/slugga spam.

Borgnine
13-06-2013, 17:21
I think the nephilim is fine. I think the biggest problem is the pre-sixth edition flyers and heldrakes being too good. When compared to the Tau and Eldar flyers, the DA flyers look just fine.

Mack
13-06-2013, 17:50
I like the model. I want to use the model instead of the crappy flying box the rest of the marines get., but with the WYSIWYG...that shoots that option down.

Jericho
13-06-2013, 18:14
I like the model. I want to use the model instead of the crappy flying box the rest of the marines get., but with the WYSIWYG...that shoots that option down.

It can be converted to be a Storm Talon (ie, leave the wings off). If you want heavy bolter/assault cannon it's easy, the other ones obviously take a slight amount of work. Lascannon/assault cannon could be done without too much trouble, placing the lascannon where the heavy bolters usually go. Or put a Terminator cyclone launcher on it as either a chin mount or roof rack.

FWIW, I think the Nephilim would have been fine if they gave the stupid missiles a USR to make up for the low strength and "missile lock" error. S6 Armorbane would've been fine, and gives it something different from the standard flak. As it stands, the 36" S6 AP4 missiles are a joke.

Spiney Norman
14-06-2013, 21:30
I think the consensus is that the Nephilim is pretty lacklustre, it has insufficient weapons to fulfill its stated purpose to any great degree and costs more points than many of us would be willing to spend on it.

But what about the Dark Talon? It is slightly cheaper, which immediately makes it more palatable, and while it is completely useless for taking down enemy flyers that isn't its purpose. It does have a few fancy tricks like the stasis bomb and the blind cannon, but are those tricks worth it? The hurricane bolters would be great in range of the devastation standard, but does that still make it a viable option?

Blempoll
15-06-2013, 01:32
When looking at the nephilim jetfighter in comparison to the last two releases Tau and Eldar flyers, is it all that bad anymore?

Yes.

Saw it fielded earlier and 5 shots seems good, then you take into account cover saves and against a 6man FW squad (sarge dead and drones dead) with Ethereal in there (not using the FnP), it took the Neph 3 turns to wipe them out.

As an anti flyer? its just as dreadful. Despite taking the last HP off the Sunshark, it was only because it got lucky with those sub par missiles, all of them shot, only glanced once, taking last HP left after 20 RF bolter DA had their way.

cuda1179
15-06-2013, 04:37
Although it is called a "fighter" what it really is is a ground attack craft. With Strafing Run it is basically BS5 against anything but a fighter or skimmer. That twin linked lascannon now has a 97.2% chance of hitting. That can REALLY tear stuff up when hitting side armor. Even if you are shooting at lighter vehicles it's fine, then at least the heavy bolters and missiles can find a use. It almost guarantees a kill on that pesky Basilisk, Vindicator, or battlewagon that you can't get to.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2013, 07:58
Yes.

Saw it fielded earlier and 5 shots seems good, then you take into account cover saves and against a 6man FW squad (sarge dead and drones dead) with Ethereal in there (not using the FnP), it took the Neph 3 turns to wipe them out.

As an anti flyer? its just as dreadful. Despite taking the last HP off the Sunshark, it was only because it got lucky with those sub par missiles, all of them shot, only glanced once, taking last HP left after 20 RF bolter DA had their way.

To be honest I can't really see a point in the avenger bolt cannon, if you're wanting a bunch of high strength anti-infantry fire then black knights are better use of points with their TL plasma, and St6 is insufficient to damage vehicles unless it is buffed by rending or armourbane. IMHO the Nephilim is all about its Lascannon for AA/AV and its just not very good at that.

Btw I'm still interested in what you guys think of the talon

Bergen Beerbelly
15-06-2013, 08:07
The Nephilim is much better than what I've been hearing online from people. It has a lascannon that is twin linked on a platform that can change any weapon destroyed result into an immobilized result.

So if you roll a 4 with any of the weapons on the damage table after punching, then it automatically goes to a 5. So you have now immobilized a vehicle or locked velocitied a plane, and caused one hull point. If you happen to have gotten into another flyers back arc and punched with those strength 6 missiles and rolled another 4 on the damage table, you have just killed that plane. You will have caused one hull point for the initial shot, and one extra hull point because it already had locked velocity from the first penetrating hit.

Yes, they can take down other planes and mess with enemy vehicles quite nicely if you play them right and remember the Unrelenting Hunter rule.

Unrelenting Hunter on a twin linked AP 2 Lascannon is pretty deadly.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2013, 08:41
The Nephilim is much better than what I've been hearing online from people. It has a lascannon that is twin linked on a platform that can change any weapon destroyed result into an immobilized result.

So if you roll a 4 with any of the weapons on the damage table after punching, then it automatically goes to a 5. So you have now immobilized a vehicle or locked velocitied a plane, and caused one hull point. If you happen to have gotten into another flyers back arc and punched with those strength 6 missiles and rolled another 4 on the damage table, you have just killed that plane. You will have caused one hull point for the initial shot, and one extra hull point because it already had locked velocity from the first penetrating hit.

Yes, they can take down other planes and mess with enemy vehicles quite nicely if you play them right and remember the Unrelenting Hunter rule.

Unrelenting Hunter on a twin linked AP 2 Lascannon is pretty deadly.

It really isn't that bad, the situation you describe above relies on you scoring a penetrating hit with a St6 missile, even on armour 10 the odds are less than 50% (assuming a successful hit), and the vast majority of flyers in the game are A11, with the most frequently seen ones being armour 12. You need an absolute miracle of dice rolling to take down an enemy flyer in one round with the Nephilim, and immobilised really isn't that bad for flyers because locked vel rarely makes much difference, in the vast majority of cases its always better to knock a gun off than it is to vel lock it, esp since the flyer's speed has no effect on the number of weapons it can fire.

Unrelenting hunter is a fluffy gimmick more than a useful special rule, granted its a little better vs non-flyer vehicles, but not by much. It would maybe have some value if the Neph had more than one single shot weapon that could pen an enemy vehicle, but it doesn't.

Blempoll
15-06-2013, 15:17
To be honest I can't really see a point in the avenger bolt cannon, if you're wanting a bunch of high strength anti-infantry fire then black knights are better use of points with their TL plasma, and St6 is insufficient to damage vehicles unless it is buffed by rending or armourbane. IMHO the Nephilim is all about its Lascannon for AA/AV and its just not very good at that.

Btw I'm still interested in what you guys think of the talon

The guy was using a LGS's model to play test it. It was built with the Avenger, no BK either, just a Libby in TDA, a Dev squad and 2 10man bolter marines.

Bergen Beerbelly
15-06-2013, 15:34
It really isn't that bad, the situation you describe above relies on you scoring a penetrating hit with a St6 missile, even on armour 10 the odds are less than 50% (assuming a successful hit), and the vast majority of flyers in the game are A11, with the most frequently seen ones being armour 12. You need an absolute miracle of dice rolling to take down an enemy flyer in one round with the Nephilim, and immobilised really isn't that bad for flyers because locked vel rarely makes much difference, in the vast majority of cases its always better to knock a gun off than it is to vel lock it, esp since the flyer's speed has no effect on the number of weapons it can fire.

Unrelenting hunter is a fluffy gimmick more than a useful special rule, granted its a little better vs non-flyer vehicles, but not by much. It would maybe have some value if the Neph had more than one single shot weapon that could pen an enemy vehicle, but it doesn't.

An absolute miracle? How do you figure that? Nephilims have a Lascannon that require a 4 to punch armour 12. But you even admit that most flyers are armour 11. So that means the Lascannon will need 3's to punch. Against Eldar flyers they will need 2s to punch.

Think about that for a moment. That lascannon can punch any flyer very easily. And then it happens to be AP 2 on top of the fact that it has Unrelenting Hunter, which by the way is no gimick. It is a deadly weapon on that thing that makes it very dangerous to other flyers.

If I am using a Nephilim to shoot at your armour 11 flyer, punch it with the lascannon and roll a 3 on the table I have just sent that flyer into locked velocity. Locked Velocity may not seem dangrous to you but look what happens on the damage table if I do that to you again with even one of my weapons. I will kill any flyer in the game with two penetrating shots if I can roll a 3 on the damage table with the lascannon, and a 4 on the damage table with the missiles. I only need two shots to kill a 3 hull point flyer.

Think about that lascannon this way too. If I shoot your flyer with the Lascannon and I roll a 4 on the damage table, I change that roll to a 5 for Unrelenting Hunter, and AP 2 then brings it to a 6, killing the flyer.

Sure, someone can try to jink it away but usually jink is only a 5+ so good luck with that.

I would call that very dangerous to any flyer in the game.

NemoSD
15-06-2013, 16:05
An absolute miracle? How do you figure that? Nephilims have a Lascannon that require a 4 to punch armour 12. But you even admit that most flyers are armour 11. So that means the Lascannon will need 3's to punch. Against Eldar flyers they will need 2s to punch.

Think about that for a moment. That lascannon can punch any flyer very easily. And then it happens to be AP 2 on top of the fact that it has Unrelenting Hunter, which by the way is no gimick. It is a deadly weapon on that thing that makes it very dangerous to other flyers.

If I am using a Nephilim to shoot at your armour 11 flyer, punch it with the lascannon and roll a 3 on the table I have just sent that flyer into locked velocity. Locked Velocity may not seem dangrous to you but look what happens on the damage table if I do that to you again with even one of my weapons. I will kill any flyer in the game with two penetrating shots if I can roll a 3 on the damage table with the lascannon, and a 4 on the damage table with the missiles. I only need two shots to kill a 3 hull point flyer.

Think about that lascannon this way too. If I shoot your flyer with the Lascannon and I roll a 4 on the damage table, I change that roll to a 5 for Unrelenting Hunter, and AP 2 then brings it to a 6, killing the flyer.

Sure, someone can try to jink it away but usually jink is only a 5+ so good luck with that.

I would call that very dangerous to any flyer in the game.

It changes the effect not the number on the die, thus a natural 4 roll gets bumped up the effect table by the AP2, BEFORE the Unrelenting hunter comes in to play.

Bergen Beerbelly
15-06-2013, 16:12
How do you figure?

The effect on the table is a title. So Weapon Destroyed results get modified to Immobilized. And Immobilized means a 5 on the table. You cannot just take part of the damage table and assume the number on the side of the table doesn't mean anything. The entire table has to be taken into account. When you modify it that most definitely means it goes to a 5.

Also, where does it say that AP 2 happens first?

NemoSD
15-06-2013, 16:23
How do you figure?

The effect on the table is a title. So Weapon Destroyed results get modified to Immobilized. And Immobilized means a 5 on the table. You cannot just take part of the damage table and assume the number on the side of the table doesn't mean anything. The entire table has to be taken into account. When you modify it that most definitely means it goes to a 5.

Also, where does it say that AP 2 happens first?

Because it is you "Treat as" not "Change to."

Bergen Beerbelly
15-06-2013, 16:26
There is no difference in treat as and change to. It means the same thing. If I treat it as, then reading the damage table, I have just treated it as a 5 on the dice, which means AP 2 makes it a six.

And again, where does it say AP 2 comes first?

Spiney Norman
15-06-2013, 17:00
An absolute miracle? How do you figure that? Nephilims have a Lascannon that require a 4 to punch armour 12. But you even admit that most flyers are armour 11. So that means the Lascannon will need 3's to punch. Against Eldar flyers they will need 2s to punch.

Think about that for a moment. That lascannon can punch any flyer very easily. And then it happens to be AP 2 on top of the fact that it has Unrelenting Hunter, which by the way is no gimick. It is a deadly weapon on that thing that makes it very dangerous to other flyers.

If I am using a Nephilim to shoot at your armour 11 flyer, punch it with the lascannon and roll a 3 on the table I have just sent that flyer into locked velocity. Locked Velocity may not seem dangrous to you but look what happens on the damage table if I do that to you again with even one of my weapons. I will kill any flyer in the game with two penetrating shots if I can roll a 3 on the damage table with the lascannon, and a 4 on the damage table with the missiles. I only need two shots to kill a 3 hull point flyer.

Think about that lascannon this way too. If I shoot your flyer with the Lascannon and I roll a 4 on the damage table, I change that roll to a 5 for Unrelenting Hunter, and AP 2 then brings it to a 6, killing the flyer.

Sure, someone can try to jink it away but usually jink is only a 5+ so good luck with that.

I would call that very dangerous to any flyer in the game.

First point, "I will kill any vehicle in the game if I can cause two penetrating hits" the Nephilim only has one single shot weapon that can be expected to penetrate armour (the Lascannon), the missiles have a 16% chance of penning an A11 flyer and no chance of penning an A12 flyer. That is the principle problem with the Neph, you need two to actually make one of them work, and most DA players are not going to want to commit 2/3 of their fast attack slots to the cause when there are a wealth of better units in that section. Not to mention the odds that even if you do bring two Nephilims there is a reasonable chance that they might not both come on in the same turn, letting your opponent take one of them down before the second arrives.

Also, regarding your messing around with the dice scores, I think I see where you're confused.

You don't get any result on the vehicle damage chart until you reach your final modified dice score, so if you roll a 3, you get +1 for being AP2, which gives you a final dice score of 4, which means you achieve a weapon destroyed result (which can then be exchanged for an immobilised result because of unrelenting hunter).

What you absolutely cannot do is roll a 4, convert it to a result (weapon destroyed), upgrade it to immobilised because of UH, then convert it back to a dice score (5) and then add +1 for being AP2 before taking the 6 as your final result. Full marks for trying though ;)

AP2 adds one to the dice score, so it must take place before any result on the table is generated, and because unrelenting hunter only allows you to exchange one result for another it must take place after the final, modified dice result has been determined. If UH was a flat +1 on the damage chart it would have gone a long way towards making the Neph a viable choice. P. 74 details the process of determining damage from a penetrating hit, you always apply any modifiers to the dice roll before looking up the damage result on the chart, and you can only apply the unrelenting hunter rule after you have looked up the damage result.

Bergen Beerbelly
15-06-2013, 17:25
Thank you Spiney Norman. I am not a man that is afraid to admit that he is wrong, after all, that is how we learn.

NemoSD
15-06-2013, 18:00
There is no difference in treat as and change to. It means the same thing. If I treat it as, then reading the damage table, I have just treated it as a 5 on the dice, which means AP 2 makes it a six.

And again, where does it say AP 2 comes first?

Actually there is a really big difference between 'treat as' and 'change to.' I want to make that point clear, because it comes up a lot in many systems, and even real world legal circumstances. The most obvious case where is different is actually when a minor is tried as an adult.

For the purposes of the case, they are treated as an adult. They are not changed to an adult. What this means is that the minor individual may be tried for one offense as an adult, but other such cases do not occur.

To change is to shift the value of the acted on object.
To treat as is to assign an attribute associated with a different value without changing the object.

Carnelian
15-06-2013, 20:31
Saw it fielded earlier and 5 shots seems good, then you take into account cover saves and against a 6man FW squad

i'm not saying it's great by any means but on top of an output of 7 strength 6 shots each turn (when firing two missiles), it's also got a twin linked heavy bolter ... all at BS5 against ground targets because of USR strafing run.

This is really effective against some targets - e.g. AV 10 vehicles, like Eldar warwalkers or the backs of IG vehicles.

And let me tell you, units of warwalkers are even more annoying after the new Eldar codex but one round of shooting from the nephilim can easily destroy two and destroying 3 in one turn is not unusual (even with their 5+ invulnerable).

in fact when firing against AV11, I think you are likely to take off 2.5 HP on average with one of those also being a penetrating hit. (i assumed three HB hits, which have an average of .5HP taken off and then 6 strength 6 hits causing one glancing and one penetrating).

Also, SWEET model.

Blempoll
15-06-2013, 21:28
all at BS5 against ground targets because of USR strafing run.



which matters not when you have a 4+ cover or better depending on the terrain.

The instance i saw them fight, they failed to do anything worthwhile, the Arvus lighter is better than it.

Carnelian
15-06-2013, 22:55
which matters not when you have a 4+ cover or better depending on the terrain.

apart from fairly uncommon cover-removing weapons, high rate of fire weaponry is the best weaponry against cover saves

Spiney Norman
15-06-2013, 23:25
apart from fairly uncommon cover-removing weapons, high rate of fire weaponry is the best weaponry against cover saves

The issue is you can get 8-10 TL Plasma talon shots from a black knight squad for around the same points cost as the Nephilim, and they start the game on the table. I understand wanting to run the Neph as a purely anti-infantry role by equipping the bolt cannon, but IMO there is a wealth of more efficient Anti-infantry/light armour in our list, and the bolt cannon Neph is useless vs flyers.

Losing Command
16-06-2013, 04:11
I would very much have liked it if all flyers were like the Nephilim.

(As in : with such a heavy point cost it hard to justify their use outside of Cool factor ;))

Spiney Norman
16-06-2013, 08:33
I would very much have liked it if all flyers were like the Nephilim.

(As in : with such a heavy point cost it hard to justify their use outside of Cool factor ;))

Indeed, if that were so the Nephilim wouldn't look so bad.
The problem with flyers is that they are very easy to counter for someone who is equipped to deal with them (a single aegis is usually enough) but virtually invulnerable to most conventional weaponry. Aside from the aegis the most efficient way to counter flyers will always be another flyer, because they effectively get to choose whether or not to Skyfire for free, whereas most ground units have to pay through the nose for that ability, which is completely wasted points if your opponent turns up with no flyers.

Carnelian
16-06-2013, 13:07
The issue is you can get 8-10 TL Plasma talon shots from a black knight squad for around the same points cost as the Nephilim, and they start the game on the table.

You are right that the Neph will not feature in the most efficient DA builds. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't feature in the more "narrative driven"/non-beat stick tournament games that a lot of people play. While 4 and a quarter bikes cost the same amount, they put out slightly lower rate of fire and are shorter range and are bikes instead of flyers, so have a whole different set of rules.

IMHO the Neph is not as bad as assumed (note that I'm not saying it's great!) and can be a fun unit to play with.

Spiney Norman
16-06-2013, 13:38
You are right that the Neph will not feature in the most efficient DA builds. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't feature in the more "narrative driven"/non-beat stick tournament games that a lot of people play. While 4 and a quarter bikes cost the same amount, they put out slightly lower rate of fire and are shorter range and are bikes instead of flyers, so have a whole different set of rules.

IMHO the Neph is not as bad as assumed (note that I'm not saying it's great!) and can be a fun unit to play with.

I'd argue that the st7 and AP2 makes the BKs superior to the Neph despite a slightly lower rate of fire. MeQ armies (by far the most common) will shrug off most of the Neph's shooting whatever its strength.

How would you say the Neph compares to the alternative build: the Dark talon?
For me the Neph is pretty much dead as a fluffy choice because its so bad at its fluff-role, it is not an AA threat by any estimation, however good its potential vs ground targets might be. The dark talon is a much cooler concept IMHO, with its mysterious arcane technology rift cannon and 'what STC?' Stasis bomb.

OuroborosTriumphant
16-06-2013, 19:58
I've found that the Dark Talon is mediocre, rather than bad. It's probably not top-tier tournament optimal, but it puts out a fair amount of anti-horde shooting and has a funky bomb. Unlike the Nephilim, it does do things you can't get elsewhere- not essential things, but stuff that might be a little unexpected.

Not a must-add, but significantly better than the Nephilim.

Blempoll
16-06-2013, 20:49
Personally, if I was ever to get a Neph, I'd proxy it as a Storm Talon in Pre-heresy themed loyal armies. As i hate that flying bumblebee.

Carnelian
16-06-2013, 20:53
Has anyone ever used the Hover Strike on the Dark Talon? Seems unwise to get the +1 BS at the cost of losing flyer status

Spiney Norman
16-06-2013, 22:01
Has anyone ever used the Hover Strike on the Dark Talon? Seems unwise to get the +1 BS at the cost of losing flyer status

I suppose it could be useful late game if you want to spin it round and waste a unit with the hurricane bolters (preferably under the SoD), just as long as you don't expect it to still be there at the end of your opponents next shoot phase. I certainly wouldn't do it before I'd dropped the bomb though.

The way I see it, the main reason to activate hover strike is not for the strafing run rule, it is to allow you to turn the talon to face any direction you like and deliver its full payload at a target of your choice (scouring an enemy unit off an objective for instance). I can definitely see the usefulness of being able to turn it on a dime because its so damn difficult to get a flyer to face the way you want it to without constantly planning 4 turns ahead, but you do have to understand that you're giving up the kill point by activating hover mode. IF it somehow manages to survive the next shoot phase that's a bonus, nothing more.

Boreal
16-06-2013, 23:16
Thank you Spiney Norman. I am not a man that is afraid to admit that he is wrong, after all, that is how we learn.

If only everyone on Warseer had this attitude :)

Mauler
17-06-2013, 12:23
You might want to re-read it. It makes them ignore Fear entirely.

Where's that stated? I don't remember seeing it under the ATSKNF section...

jackers
17-06-2013, 12:45
I proxied a Nephilim with the avenger mega bolter in a big game against daemons on Saturday. It did alright, but wasn't anything special; took 2 HP off a soul grinder, wounded a daemon prince and killed 10 daemonettes. I will try it out in a few more games and try the Dark Talon aswell, because I did enjoy using it, and I love the model, so I would love to be able to take either the Nephilim or the Dark Talon in my army. I'm not a very competitive player, so I don't mind if it isn't the most effective use of a FA slot, as long as it can do something.
Also, realising that the Dark Talon has Hurricane bolters makes me very tempted to try that out next, as I have lots of bikes and the banner of devastation in my main list, so the DT would synergise really well.

Hendarion
17-06-2013, 16:35
Where's that stated? I don't remember seeing it under the ATSKNF section...
Last sentence:
"Additionally, a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is immune to Fear."
The unit does not have the rule "Fearless", so the Hemlock can't affect such a unit, because it does not remove or affect ATSKNF.

Bergen Beerbelly
17-06-2013, 18:30
Actually, Hemlocks can most certainly affect units with ATSKNF, admittedly not by making them susceptible to fear but by making them immediately take a morale check. ATSKNF does not prevent pinning or morale checks, just takes away the Fear special rule.

Marines would still have to test, and if within 12 of the Hemlock, they would have to re roll any passed morale checks. If they fail one, then they would fall back, but then immediately re-group.

NemoSD
17-06-2013, 18:55
Actually, Hemlocks can most certainly affect units with ATSKNF, admittedly not by making them susceptible to fear but by making them immediately take a morale check. ATSKNF does not prevent pinning or morale checks, just takes away the Fear special rule.

Marines would still have to test, and if within 12 of the Hemlock, they would have to re roll any passed morale checks. If they fail one, then they would fall back, but then immediately re-group.

Thank you, I do not argue with people who do not understand ATSKNF etc... in my experience, most people who only play marines have NO idea how the morale system works and is normally pointless to argue with them.

Losing Command
17-06-2013, 20:44
If you take 2 Dark Talons, first drop da statisbomb with the 1st on a unit and then shoot the stained-glass cannon of the 2nd on the same unit, would that unit have to do a blind test with -3 Initiative ? Would be a good way to blind a unit you really don't like with a decent chance of them failing the blind test. It would be 320 points and 2 FA slots to blind a unit (or two) for 2 game turns, but it sounds like a nice suprise tactic (nobody expects DA flyers to do anything)

Hendarion
17-06-2013, 21:06
Actually, Hemlocks can most certainly affect units with ATSKNF, admittedly not by making them susceptible to fear but by making them immediately take a morale check. ATSKNF does not prevent pinning or morale checks, just takes away the Fear special rule. True. But causing a single moral-check per turn is... truely meh for nearly 200 points. Especially because ATSKNF units rarely come below LD 9.

Ozendorph
17-06-2013, 21:13
True. But causing a single moral-check per turn is... truely meh for nearly 200 points. Especially because ATSKNF units rarely come below LD 9.

A moral check that has to be re-rolled on a successful result (if within 12"). Your point stands, but it's a bit better than stated

BigHammer
17-06-2013, 21:31
A moral check that has to be re-rolled on a successful result (if within 12"). Your point stands, but it's a bit better than stated

Also, the power happens in the movement phase. If the unit breaks and runs (and ATSKNF doesn't rally you immediately, it allows you to rally automatically at the usual time ie at the start of your turn), the two heavy d-scythes can potentially do enough damage in the shooting phase to force a morale test again which, because the unit is already broken, will be automatically failed, causing another fall back move. A tank shock (from a nearby grav-tank) will have the same effect, as will successive castings of Terrify from other sources (Farseers, Spiritseers, other Hemlocks etc). Every failed morale check is an immediate fall-back move.

Carnelian
17-06-2013, 22:26
If you take 2 Dark Talons, first drop da statisbomb with the 1st on a unit and then shoot the stained-glass cannon of the 2nd on the same unit, would that unit have to do a blind test with -3 Initiative ? Would be a good way to blind a unit you really don't like with a decent chance of them failing the blind test. It would be 320 points and 2 FA slots to blind a unit (or two) for 2 game turns, but it sounds like a nice suprise tactic (nobody expects DA flyers to do anything)

that's really interesting! should be able to -fairly reliably- blind 2 units a turn. That could be very effective against some armies - particularly Tau!

Only problem is getting your flyers to survive that long against them!

Mauler
18-06-2013, 06:14
Last sentence:
"Additionally, a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is immune to Fear."
The unit does not have the rule "Fearless", so the Hemlock can't affect such a unit, because it does not remove or affect ATSKNF.

Ahhhhh. I checked the codex three times last night, thought it was odd to have two people insist the same thing without basis. Checked the FAQ, it pointed to the 6E BRB and there it is. Gotcha.

Grand Master Azrael
10-01-2014, 01:30
Sexy Nephilim Jetfighter......

FredrikR
10-01-2014, 10:29
The solution to most of the Nephilim issues could have been so easy.

Instead of GW deleting the "missile lock" rule (because face it, that entry must have been intended to do something to improve the missile), change it to "Flyerbane", ie Armourbane valid only against flyers. Immediately much fluffier, as it would then be much more of an interceptor...but noooo... :-(

ehlijen
10-01-2014, 11:41
Azrael, why did you raise this thread from the dead for just that?

Royals
10-01-2014, 13:21
Azrael, why did you raise this thread from the dead for just that?

Because it's so true. The Nephilim is my favorite model that GW produces by a long shot. The only thing that would top it is a plastic Thunderbolt or Maruader.

Nazguire
11-01-2014, 13:30
The Nephillim is probably going to enjoy shooting down Hive Crones and Harpys upon the Tyranid release. The Tyranid flyers will have a toughness value and doubtfully anything better than a 3+ save.

Spiney Norman
11-01-2014, 13:37
The Nephillim is probably going to enjoy shooting down Hive Crones and Harpys upon the Tyranid release. The Tyranid flyers will have a toughness value and doubtfully anything better than a 3+ save.

If they have better than a 4+ armour save they'll be all but immune to blacksword missiles and the Megabolter, of course the Lascannon will be useful! but it can only do one wound a turn on an MC.

If they had made those weapons AP3 they would at least have been useful against space marines, but sadly not...

OuroborosTriumphant
11-01-2014, 14:40
Both Tyranid FMCs have 4+ saves and T5. The Nephilim now has a worthy target. I still wouldn't take one, but yeah, a Nephilim will wreck a Hive Crone's day.

Mandragola
11-01-2014, 15:14
True. It is actually pretty good against nid FMCs.

A storm talon, with its assault cannon and skyhammer missiles, is also going to upset them. Actually, many things are. A quad gun, say.

I think it's possible we've just found a worse "flyer" than the nephilim. I haven't got the book yet. Wonder what their attacks do.

Silversage
11-01-2014, 16:00
From the sound of it, GW's business strategy is getting more and more ridiculous. I can just imagine what must've transpired... "Ok guys, we made an air superiority fighter (Nephilim) that utterly sucks balls in its fluff-described role. I've come up with a plan to fix this: Let's make something even crappier!" Good job dimwits.

For me, even if the Nephilim is not terrible versus some of the fliers (AV10 and AV11), as mentioned earlier, it is nothing compared to the most commonly used ones. If you're designing an air-superiority fighter, give it at least a fighting chance versus the other flyers in the game. A single twin-linked lascannon just simply doesn't cut it.

jackers
11-01-2014, 17:17
did this thread really need resurrecting? we all know that the Nephilim; isn't a very good flyer, has poor weapons, but does look nice.