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T10
17-06-2013, 12:23
On paper it seems pretty over-powered, at least undercosted since it does at least the same thing as a Magic Resistance (5) item (which should cost 75 points), plus the bonus effects of granting saves against magical attacks an not only spells.

I've not had the opportunity to se it in use yet. How does it work in actual play?

-T10

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 13:08
It works in actual play like it does on paper. Its a very powerful item. Against demons, if the elf player has bunkered a massive unit into the banner and is not using a bsb to carry the banner, it is for the most part a kill switch.

SteveW
17-06-2013, 13:09
If your opponent is forced to use magic against the unit its OP as anything has ever been. I have yet to play deamons with the new book but im sure there would be tears.

Shadeseraph
17-06-2013, 14:01
No, please, not yet another "BotWD is broken!" thread... We already got like 3 of those, one of them about 60 pages long.

I realize that's not the point of the OP, but I'm quite sure this is going to be derailed -fast-.

Please. Pretty please.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 15:51
this thread is new and refreshing *rolleyes*

anyway it will always comes down to the point that all the raging people should just learn to use redirectors instead of crying about that they cant use their favorite derpstar or horde unit and move them forward for a win.

and BTW, magic resistance is not worth the points you pay for it in the current book.

Tarian
17-06-2013, 15:55
Like most other things in the books, it depends on how you play it, as well of your opponents. If you see you're across Demons and pour 75% of your points into a unit shielded by the banner... then you deserve the derision that will probably come your way. If you're more reasonable and have a solid unit without going 'lol demons', then the other player shouldn't complain too much about it.

It's a game with multiple people, and people need to realize that stripping your opponent of fun by pulling silly stunts does nothing but damage the hobby and strip them of games. As someone else said before, the point of the game is the win. The object of the game is to have fun. If one side is not having fun, then neither side will.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 16:12
Like most other things in the books, it depends on how you play it, as well of your opponents. If you see you're across Demons and pour 75% of your points into a unit shielded by the banner... then you deserve the derision that will probably come your way. If you're more reasonable and have a solid unit without going 'lol demons', then the other player shouldn't complain too much about it.

It's a game with multiple people, and people need to realize that stripping your opponent of fun by pulling silly stunts does nothing but damage the hobby and strip them of games. As someone else said before, the point of the game is the win. The object of the game is to have fun. If one side is not having fun, then neither side will.
if someone uses that many points for such a unit it is a free win. my 50 points units will play cat and mouse with his super duper skillstar while I demolish 625 points of his core =D

Tarian
17-06-2013, 16:15
if someone uses that many points for such a unit it is a free win. my 50-80 points units will play cat and mouse with his super duper skillstar while I demolish 625 points of his core =D

Until they castle in the corner and play points denial while magicking whatever comes within reach to get their 100 points. There's a reason people complain about the banner, and its not because they get a free win.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 16:22
Until they castle in the corner and play points denial while magicking whatever comes within reach to get their 100 points. There's a reason people complain about the banner, and its not because they get a free win.
castling only works when you have enough tough units on the table to cover each other and have enough fire power to get rid of everything annoying. such a HE list has 3 units on the table (where only one of it is really tough) and almost zero support. in turn 2 I will park my chaff infront of the skillstar and clear the entire core units while the skillstar cannot move at all.

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 16:24
I've watched the castle in the corner trick. It works quite well. You can play cat and mouse all day with this super duper skillstar, because it doesn't want to go anywhere. And, as the rest of the army is sitting back there as well, charging and "demolishing" the other 625 points means that you will be in range of being hit by the skill banner unit. And while you play cat and mouse with the skillstar, it will be using its magic to blast your chaffe units which are easy points, and in a game wehre to win you only need a +100 point advantage, that can be pretty killer.

Redirecting, cat and mouse, etc... only works if the unit is actively trying to engage you and come after you.

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 16:25
castling only works when you have enough tough units on the table to cover each other and have enough fire power to get rid of everything annoying. such a HE list has 3 units on the table (where only one of it is really tough) and almost zero support. in turn 2 I will park my chaff infront of the skillstar and clear the entire core units while the skillstar cannot move at all.

A battle report demonstrating this awesome counter would be appreciated then.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 16:25
charging and "demolishing" the other 625 points means that you will be in range of being hit by the skill banner unit.
because the deathstar can magically jump over redirectors and you suddenly can cast spells of all types into combat, right? oh wait...

Tarian
17-06-2013, 16:28
do you even play warhammer? because the deathstar can magically jump over redirectors and you suddenly can cast spells of all types into combat, right? oh wait...

Do you? Because this game doesn't always deploy at 90 Degree angles. Deploy wide and angle it so the edges are too close to the table edges to get around. Sprinkle some archers in for core to shoot, let anything that touches the unit die. Max mages and 6-dice, because miscast? Oh well for the most part. You only need 100 points. That's one of your "redirectors" that can probably be picked off by a single hero with the Reaver bow over 6 turns.

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 16:31
I don't know what you are hyperboling about... no one talked about jumping over redirectors and casting all types of spells into combat.

If you "park in front of the unit" then you can be charged. You can flee and redirect all you want, you still run the chance of being caught. Then the unit reforms after combat and nothing much has changed.

If by "park in front of the unit" you mean come out about 8" or so, then why bother charging in the first place and just sit there and keep magic and shooting the chaffe units until they go away. Redirection is an obvious ploy. If you don't want to fall for it... you don't charge.

If you are parking in front of the unit so that they cannot move and can only charge then the unit in question can either charge, or simply just nail you with the ranged elements in their army as most redirectors are weak chaffe units that die to arrows and bolt throwers and magic missiles pretty easily.

So I'd like to see specific examples of what you are talking about. I am not talking about magically jumping over anything. I'm talking about castling, which means not charging unless I have to. That's the point of castling. Redirectors largely don't work against someone that is castling. If they come charging out of the corner, they are no longer castling.

I've watched about a dozen high elf games now with a skill banner castling in the corner. You can try to run at the other points all day long, and while its not impossible, it certainly isn't as easy as you are making it out to be.

"do you even play warhammer?" - and drop the tool attitude. It's not going to get you far and only succeeds in locking threads down. No one gets a gold medal here for being a prick and being the warhammer champion. It's a discussion forum wherein we discuss, not berate or attack each other.

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 16:32
obviously some of you have not mastered proper redirecting yet and do not know that some spells do not allow saves :rolleyes:


You can flee and redirect all you want, you still run the chance of being caught. Then the unit reforms after combat and nothing much has changed.
there are ways to prevent this.

Tarian
17-06-2013, 16:36
obviously some of you have not mastered proper redirecting yet and do not know that some spells do not allow saves :rolleyes:


there are ways to prevent this.

Yes, since there's how many spells that deny saves that matter at all to high I elves? And what are the mages doing, dispelling fireball or something? You obviously are stuck in your own imaginary world where everything works for you. Good luck with that, I suppose.

Tarian out.

underscore
17-06-2013, 16:41
Of course the fact that there IS a High Magic spell which will allow a unit to leap over redirectors makes this all particularly amusing.

GlenMorray
17-06-2013, 16:45
Oh jesus, so one 64 page thread wasn't enough, we need another one aie?

cptcosmic
17-06-2013, 16:47
Of course the fact that there IS a High Magic spell which will allow a unit to leap over redirectors makes this all particularly amusing.
too bad it does not allow you to pass through units :rolleyes:


Oh jesus, so one 64 page thread wasn't enough, we need another one aie?
nope, it is pretty amusing to read about their phantasy strategy and tactic in their perfect hello kitty world when they do not even know how to redirect properly.

T10
17-06-2013, 16:54
So far a single post in this thread is along the lines of "I've seen this in action!", an that one was kinda thin on the details. Surely the banner does not make the unit immune to warmachines? Chariots? Charging Knights and characters that invest in non-weapon items?

underscore
17-06-2013, 16:56
too bad it does not allow you to pass through units :rolleyes:

Ah, so it doesn't. Hexwraiths broke me brane.

Tarian
17-06-2013, 17:01
How does work in actual play?

Units with magical attacks/magic weapons avoid it like the plague, as killing the unit is incredibly hard. Those that don't have those features treat it like every other unit, as the banner won't affect them much. Its best use against non heavy-magical attack armies is the 2++ against a large portion of the miscast table.

So barring magical warmachines, they can still blast the unit to pieces, etc. Standard tactics against HE elite infantry still works as long as the unit doesn't have magic weapons. Forces certain characters to either not engage the unit, or shift to using mundane gear as standard, which hurts them against other units/armies.

AmaroK
17-06-2013, 17:11
My experience against it, as I stated in the rules subforum, is that it promotes 6 dicing too mucho. Having a 2+ ward for the unit and the character casting it makes even the high strenght templates do nothing to those units and only loosing magic levels or being sucked into the warp are the problems. In my last game against HE, a big template affected 22 swordmasters in the misscast, but my rival just lost 3 of them :p Only because of this, the banner should cost way more than 50 points (the staff that makes you rerol the misscast is 25 points and just one use). But giving also that ward vs magic weapons and direct damage spells makes it beyond good. If GW rewrites the faq making the effect of misscasta non magical (so banner wouldnt apply) Id be more or less ok, even id it still would be too good. And before someone say that is not logical nor fluffy, is the same as magic resistance not being usable to resist magical misscasts. Its about game balance.

Baluc
17-06-2013, 17:12
Against standard armies it keeps characters safe from deathsnipes, and the new breed of power spells (bad moon and the like), and blender vamp lords, though I'm not sure why people don't just take cheapo lances on their vamp lords. But that is besides the point. The unit still for has tradition elf weaknesses, dwellers, chariots, doom divers. I won't say that they are weak to stone throwers as generally its going to be on White lions that have a 3+ save against non-magical throwers, only the treb really scares white lions at all.

Now Daemons have somewhat of an issue with it, but for some reason Daemon players refuse to use some of the best units pretty regularly. I don't know how many times I've asked players why they don't have a unit of 8 Beast of Nurgle to get the response. "... I don't know."

That being said I only have one army list with the banner, and its my least powerful list, so take that for what it is worth. I found in a 4 round event or when I just show up to the store its pretty much a waste of a banner spot. (notice I did not say it was a wast of points, just that I can use the banner spot for other banners)

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 17:17
Now Daemons have somewhat of an issue with it, but for some reason Daemon players refuse to use some of the best units pretty regularly. I don't know how many times I've asked players why they don't have a unit of 8 Beast of Nurgle to get the response. "... I don't know."

Because not everyone plays the game as a min/max exercise. If I didn't play nurgle I also would not use them, and the response wouldn't be "I don't know" it would be "because they don't adhere to the mark that I have chose to run with".

Currently I use four, and the reason I use four instead of eight is because "I don't enjoy min/maxing my armies and neither do my opponents". The banner of skill is not an issue in our group simply because the Tamurkhan list is available to use and if I'm playing against high elves my demon army will be dropping a unit of plague bearers for some chaos warriors and knights with unsorcelled (non magical) weapons.

Daenerys Targaryen
17-06-2013, 17:22
Now Daemons have somewhat of an issue with it, but for some reason Daemon players refuse to use some of the best units pretty regularly. I don't know how many times I've asked players why they don't have a unit of 8 Beast of Nurgle to get the response. "... I don't know."

So, does this mean that all you High Elf players are thus willing to help us unskilled Daemon players fund the $238.00(can) price tag for that single unit of 8 Beasts? Just asking...

Captain Collius
17-06-2013, 17:27
No Banner of the Neverending Nerdrage does not protect against basic versions of chariots, warmachines, and infantry.

Does BotWD break demons in combat. Yes.

Is it going to be changed. Probably not.

Do we need another thread that covers the same well worn ground again. Nope.

Tarian
17-06-2013, 17:28
So, does this mean that all you High Elf players are thus willing to help us unskilled Daemon players fund the $238.00(can) price tag for that single unit of 8 Beasts? Just asking...

Nope, but I'm more than happy to either leave it on a small/medium sized unit or leave the banner at home completely.

Captain Collius
17-06-2013, 17:36
Nope, but I'm more than happy to either leave it on a small/medium sized unit or leave the banner at home completely.

This is what most players are doing in my experience. Except for the one kid at our store who last edition ran 50 spearmen, characters, 5 Dragon Princes and 30 Swordmasters and Teclis or if he was feeling generous a lvl 4 with the old book of hoeth. Guess what his list looks like.

I for example run it on my unit of 20 White Lions with a noble. by no means is it broken.

Baluc
17-06-2013, 17:42
My response to you guys is. If your playing with half the book, expect half the results. I can't complain about MCav and 1+ armour if I don't take the tools to deal with it because of fluff or I can't or won't spend the money to deal with it.

If its a fluff exercise spend the time and money to convert a unit that fits your fluff, if its money well at the end of the day who has the money has been the deciding factor to many hobbies and games. Starting way back in the day with magic.

Daenerys Targaryen
17-06-2013, 18:07
My response to you guys is. If your playing with half the book, expect half the results. I can't complain about MCav and 1+ armour if I don't take the tools to deal with it because of fluff or I can't or won't spend the money to deal with it.

If its a fluff exercise spend the time and money to convert a unit that fits your fluff, if its money well at the end of the day who has the money has been the deciding factor to many hobbies and games. Starting way back in the day with magic.
Except that Daemons are special case, as our book tends to force us into a mainly mono-god build due to our laughably craptastic General & BSB rules... Using a full-on pantheon list is actually a massive disadvantage if you play Daemons!

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 18:16
And that youre still only using not even half the book. Cherry picking the best units leaves you using a tiny fraction of the overall book.

Damocles8
17-06-2013, 18:31
Until they castle in the corner and play points denial while magicking whatever comes within reach to get their 100 points. There's a reason people complain about the banner, and its not because they get a free win.

That's when you charge them with a terror causing unit, use abilities/spells to lower leadership and giggle when they fail

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 18:36
So far a single post in this thread is along the lines of "I've seen this in action!", an that one was kinda thin on the details. Surely the banner does not make the unit immune to warmachines? Chariots? Charging Knights and characters that invest in non-weapon items?

Against demons yes it does. Against other armies, its largely used to counter heroes.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2013, 18:38
In practice? I pack up and walk away, and it doesn't involve any nerdrage as some simpletons believe. :)


obviously some of you have not mastered proper redirecting yet and do not know that some spells do not allow saves :rolleyes:

there are ways to prevent this.

Then why don't you start listing them, all two dozens? You've been asked a couple of times now to present any glimpse of evidence - and yet you only continue to sneer.

Into which unit do I properly redirect my charge then, hmm? Diverting is impossible and useless, and I have indeed no idea which spells you're talking about.

Daenerys Targaryen
17-06-2013, 18:38
That's when you charge them with a terror causing unit, use abilities/spells to lower leadership and giggle when they fail
Except that if they're castling in a corner, then pretty much everything relevant is in range of the BSB + General. And if you're Daemons and they don't book it home from that Terror check, your big scary 500+ points monster runs into a 2++ brick wall and then explodes to Instability wounds...

theunwantedbeing
17-06-2013, 18:39
That's when you charge them with a terror causing unit, use abilities/spells to lower leadership and giggle when they fail

And to those of us who didn't bother with anything that causes terror or taking the tiny handful of things that lower leadership are of course silly for not altering our lists mid-game.

Lord Inquisitor
17-06-2013, 18:40
I've only faced it once, using my Ogres. Only one magic weapon in the army, was slightly annoying to neuter my tyrant when he got into combat but fair enough for 50 points I suppose.

If I'd played that same army with my daemons it would certainly have been a different game and I would have had to play hit and run. But the banner of the world dragon was in a big unit of archers so I would have been taking fire all game unless I simply hid in the opposite corner. Which, given that it was an ETC-style team tournament, if I'd been playing Daemons that's probably exactly what I would have done.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-06-2013, 18:41
Yeah, some of these arm-chair general types act as if one usually first peruses the opponent's list and then leisurely picks the ideal counters while the other guy leaves everything as is. Clever, so clever.

AmaroK
17-06-2013, 18:41
No Banner of the Neverending Nerdrage does not protect against basic versions of chariots, warmachines, and infantry.

Does BotWD break demons in combat. Yes.

Is it going to be changed. Probably not.

Do we need another thread that covers the same well worn ground again. Nope.

Changing the banner itself is not realistic with the book being so recently released.But changing the faq that states that misscasts damage is magical is very easy, and reverting a faq is not unusual either. Taking out the protection against misscast maybe wont fix the whole issue with the banner, but it would help to avoid 6 dicing with bunkered/deathstarred units.

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 18:49
I don't think it would stop 6-dicing. 6-dicing will be used so long as the miscast table is so aenemic. It is vastly worth more to six dice a spell and get the #6 spell off and wipe out a unit than the minor chance that something bad will happen to your wizard. Typically he *may* take a wound. If he's bunkered in a unit not threatened, he will have at least 2 wounds, and if he's the level 4 then he will have three wounds so its' not that big a deal.

Daenerys Targaryen
17-06-2013, 18:58
Yeah, some of these arm-chair general types act as if one usually first peruses the opponent's list and then leisurely picks the ideal counters while the other guy leaves everything as is. Clever, so clever.

Add to it that everyone who's trying to claim Daemons aren't royally ********* by the banner have almost certainly not even read the new DoC army book and thus have 0 clue what they're even trying to talk about...

Baluc
17-06-2013, 19:22
And that youre still only using not even half the book. Cherry picking the best units leaves you using a tiny fraction of the overall book.

My HE army uses 10 different units... this isn't 40k spam isn't a real thing. And to be more exact, the quote should be. "If you're only willing to picking units from from half the units in the book, you should expect half the results."


Except that Daemons are special case, as our book tends to force us into a mainly mono-god build due to our laughably craptastic General & BSB rules... Using a full-on pantheon list is actually a massive disadvantage if you play Daemons!

Thats mostly not true, unless you are taking a GD herald LD isn't much better than unit LD. Secondly as long as your main combat blocks are covered by the bsb, in this case plague bearers and beast of nurgle, the rest can be mitigated by in game play. Its not like Daemons are taking fear or panic tests, that suddenly need to be re-rolled. And when you look at the support units that tend to be priced in such a way that the expectation is that they may actually be without character support. See; Skullcannon

If you diversify your army the reign of chaos table is still less damaging to you than it is to the enemy, and you are provided with more roll players. Things like fast support units, and tougher combat blocks than anyone one god can supply. This all adds up to say that mono-god builds hold a dubious statistical advantage over a more holistic role playing(in terms of battlefield elements) that a mixed army would present. I don't know if you've seen what a burning chariot does to support units but its not pretty.

Captain Collius
17-06-2013, 19:24
6 dicing is a problem but it is a problem with the ruleset more so than BotWD. BotWD just makes the effect far less likely.

Also its a magical energy that is out of control. why wouldn't it be magical.

The problem is people need to use the banner in a sensible way. Like I said mine is on a frontline combat unit that has no casters and i get along just fine.

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 19:36
My HE army uses 10 different units... this isn't 40k spam isn't a real thing. And to be more exact, the quote should be. "If you're only willing to picking units from from half the units in the book, you should expect half the results."

So, with respect, it seems that you are saying "if you play anything but an optimal list, expect to be mauled". I can't argue that that is a false statement since if you take a non optimal list against an optimized one, the optimized list is head and shoulders more powerful. However, with chaos... there is a definite theme with the marks. That's arguing something different though (not really arguing actually just commentary)

My response was to the comment about how you should take max beasts of nurgle units because they are the best, and whenever a demon player is asked why he doesn't he says "i don't know..."

IcedCrow
17-06-2013, 19:44
6 dicing is a problem but it is a problem with the ruleset more so than BotWD. BotWD just makes the effect far less likely.

Also its a magical energy that is out of control. why wouldn't it be magical.

The problem is people need to use the banner in a sensible way. Like I said mine is on a frontline combat unit that has no casters and i get along just fine.

Yes I agree wholly. Six-dicing has existed long before the skill banner and will exist after so long as you have spells that win you the game if cast.

The banner in a sensible unit is not an issue. It can be fun to face, even with demons. The issue is when people game the game with it, but that's like anything really.

AmaroK
17-06-2013, 20:40
Yes I agree wholly. Six-dicing has existed long before the skill banner and will exist after so long as you have spells that win you the game if cast.

The banner in a sensible unit is not an issue. It can be fun to face, even with demons. The issue is when people game the game with it, but that's like anything really.

Sure, 6 dicing exists because of brb problems, but the banner only make it worse. Almost nullifying the effects in an expensive and elite army like HE is golden. You put your mage around expensive prince dragons or silverhems, even in 2nd line? no worries, you can six dice without many risks. Same goes for elite infantery. Hell, even with spearmen or archer bunkers is a sensible thing, because a big loose in them can make your bunker vulnerable or loose the look out in your enemys next turn. Maybe for other massed armies it wouldnt be a big deal, but for HE, misscasts effects on troops are very problematic and the banner almost cancel those problems.

Kahadras
17-06-2013, 20:56
The banner in a sensible unit is not an issue. It can be fun to face, even with demons. The issue is when people game the game with it, but that's like anything really.

This.

The banner really isn't an issue unless the HE player deliberatly goes out of his way to drop the bannerstar on a DoC player.


Almost nullifying the effects in an expensive and elite army like HE is golden. You put your mage around expensive prince dragons or silverhems, even in 2nd line? no worries, you can six dice without many risks. Same goes for elite infantery. Hell, even with spearmen or archer bunkers is a sensible thing, because a big loose in them can make your bunker vulnerable or loose the look out in your enemys next turn. Maybe for other massed armies it wouldnt be a big deal, but for HE, misscasts effects on troops are very problematic and the banner almost cancel those problems.

It's only really 'worthwhile' if place the Archmage with one of the special choices that allow the banner to be carried in the unit (even then you're risking your magic caster by placing him in a combat unit and tipping your opponant off to were the BotWD is). Spearmen, Archers and Silver Helms would mean you'd need to take a BSB Noble to carry the banner so you're throwing over 150 points extra into a bunker for questionable returns.

Kahadras

Captain Collius
17-06-2013, 21:23
Yes I agree wholly. Six-dicing has existed long before the skill banner and will exist after so long as you have spells that win you the game if cast.

The banner in a sensible unit is not an issue. It can be fun to face, even with demons. The issue is when people game the game with it, but that's like anything really.

Quite true the only way to deal with that kind of person is just don't play them. Sadly that is the only real option.

AmaroK
17-06-2013, 21:29
I gave the example of core units to ilustrate how it would be effective in core troops, even if its not the most optimal thing to do. But if we consider that scenario, it doesnt have to be an investment for your mage and bsb in the archer/spear unit, but more a place where they finish their days after leaving (and protecting) more valuable units when they decide to go into close combat. And from there, they could be still protected and able to 6 dice with minimum risks.

Kahadras
17-06-2013, 21:57
I gave the example of core units to ilustrate how it would be effective in core troops, even if its not the most optimal thing to do.

It just isn't effective though. It's just a massive waste of points and potential IMO.

Kahadras

Daenerys Targaryen
17-06-2013, 23:02
This.

The banner really isn't an issue unless the HE player deliberatly goes out of his way to drop the bannerstar on a DoC player.

Kahadras You don't need a bannerstar to ruin a DoC player's day though... something like 21 White Lions with all the army's characters slapped into it and the rest of the HE army deployed around it is enough to "game the system."

SteveW
17-06-2013, 23:19
In my last game I miscast in a unit with the banner and forgot that I had it and lost all but one of my 20 White Lions and my mage was sucked into the warp :(

Fanatik
17-06-2013, 23:31
I have run with the banner in 4 games now (21 man WL unit). All at 2500 pts, 1 game each againt WOC, Ogres, Daemons, and Tomb Kings. In three of the games it has saved me 3 white lions, total, and in the WOC game I was able to have my WL champ hold off his BSB. In all 4 games I felt it was of minimal benefit.

Against the Daemon player, I admittedly placed the WL unit too far to my flank and he simply kept that unit out of the fight until the last turn of the game, which by then I was overrun by Bloodletters.

The simple answer is that yes, it's a nice item to help with the miscast table and those challenge fights. It could be taken to extremes against Daemons, if you know you're going to be facing them. If you're making an all comers list for a tournament or a local club gathering, you're not going to makeing the Lionstar unit. And if you do make the alleged Lionstar unit, you're one spell away from losing half your army. If you're a Daemon player in a local club or group and your HE player is being a rectal oriface and making said Lionstar unit, you need to stop playing him/her.

theunwantedbeing
17-06-2013, 23:32
In my last game I miscast in a unit with the banner and forgot that I had it and lost all but one of my 20 White Lions and my mage was sucked into the warp :(

With the Dimensional Cascade miscast result, the banner won't protect the mage against getting sucked into the realm of chaos.
That being said, it's quite impressive that you managed to hit 20 white lions with the template though.

ewar
17-06-2013, 23:36
You don't need a bannerstar to ruin a DoC player's day though... something like 21 White Lions with all the army's characters slapped into it and the rest of the HE army deployed around it is enough to "game the system."

Huh?

Sorry, if you can't deal with 21 guys with 1 attack, even if it is at S6 then your opinion about what is or isn't OP is slightly moot.

When did DoC players go from being insufferable power gamers to insufferable whiners!? ;)

FWIW this thread needs to be put out of it's misery swiftly and painlessly. I'm fairly sure we plumbed the depths of nerdrage in the other mega thread - for anyone who missed this, please see here (I would ask anyone to read the whole thing from start to finish before adding to this thread, but I wouldn't want to inflict that on anyone!):

Beware ye, all mortals who enter here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?371080-Banner-of-World-Dragon-OP-Broken-Strong-Lame-your-take&highlight=world+dragon)

SteveW
17-06-2013, 23:46
With the Dimensional Cascade miscast result, the banner won't protect the mage against getting sucked into the realm of chaos.
That being said, it's quite impressive that you managed to hit 20 white lions with the template though.

My loremaster was in the middle front rank of a unit 7x3, there were probably a few casualties already when it went off but you get the idea.

Kahadras
18-06-2013, 00:40
You don't need a bannerstar to ruin a DoC player's day though... something like 21 White Lions with all the army's characters slapped into it and the rest of the HE army deployed around it is enough to "game the system."

If you're playing at 1000 points that might be getting close to making things difficult for DoC. Otherwise they concentrate on taking off the rest of the HE army while minimising the damage that the White Lions can do.

Kahadras

Daenerys Targaryen
18-06-2013, 00:58
If you're playing at 1000 points that might be getting close to making things difficult for DoC. Otherwise they concentrate on taking off the rest of the HE army while minimising the damage that the White Lions can do.

Kahadras

Hence why a smart HE player deploys the Lions w/banner in the dead center of their army. There's no avoiding it at that point because going after the units you can hurt inevitably brings you within the threat range of the banner unit you can't scratch. All a Daemon player can do at that point is play avoidancehammer like a champ and try to play for the last turn charge to reap VP's. Makes for an infuriatingly boring game.

HurrDurr
18-06-2013, 01:09
I think taking a normal match up, then slapping a 2+ ward on unit from one side for a relatively small fee is unbalanced. It is too cost effective when it has to worry about less dangers other units have to, imo.

Kahadras
18-06-2013, 01:25
Hence why a smart HE player deploys the Lions w/banner in the dead center of their army. There's no avoiding it at that point because going after the units you can hurt inevitably brings you within the threat range of the banner unit you can't scratch. All a Daemon player can do at that point is play avoidancehammer like a champ and try to play for the last turn charge to reap VP's. Makes for an infuriatingly boring game.

Then as a smart Daemon player you work the flanks. The HE player then has to decide does he sit still and wait for the weakened Daemon center to move up or does he wheel and support either of his flanks. Which ever flanks he supports he leaves the other one without the support of the banner unit which you can then jump. On the flank he does move up to support you can fade back while using chaff units to slow him down and prevent him from going back to help his other flank.

Kahadras

Gustav Kohn
18-06-2013, 01:56
In my O&G game against the new HE the banner saved my opponent. My blender Lord couldn't do anything but one wound in 3 rounds against his BSB. His mage was safe from my sniping spells and his miscasts. I couldn't target his biggest unit (20+ WL with the warrior mage thing and a BSB).

It was very useful for him but not OP IF COSTED CORRECTLY. It is, however, not costed correctly because his BSB didn't even have to have the banner (and didn't).

Kahadras
18-06-2013, 02:08
In my O&G game against the new HE the banner saved my opponent. My blender Lord couldn't do anything but one wound in 3 rounds against his BSB. His mage was safe from my sniping spells and his miscasts. I couldn't target his biggest unit (20+ WL with the warrior mage thing and a BSB).

Him set up his Mage in the unit should have been an indication that he is going to be rocking the banner. If it's the first time you've gone up against the HE then just take it as a learning experience (as I did when I went up against the new Ogre book where my opponant was rocking a Gutstar, Mornfang and x2 Ironblasters). He had Paper (BotWD) against your rock (blender lord). Next time take scissors (great weapon as your striking after him anyway).

Kahadras

m1acca1551
18-06-2013, 03:17
To awnser the OP, it plays like most cheesey under costed magical items do, it simply creates a situational unfair advantage against certain units, builds and a complete army.

Is it unbeatable? God no
Are you pushing poop uphill?? Hell yeah!!

I've seen it beaten, yet to do so myself but it can be done with enough firepower and simply drowning he unit with enough mundane attacks to make the unit break. There in lies the problem that many have with the skill banner of derp is that it takes a huge amount of resources to kill, whilst the unit itself is extremely dangerous both in combat and as a house of 6 dice skill hammer.

Gustav Kohn
18-06-2013, 04:35
Him set up his Mage in the unit should have been an indication that he is going to be rocking the banner. If it's the first time you've gone up against the HE then just take it as a learning experience (as I did when I went up against the new Ogre book where my opponant was rocking a Gutstar, Mornfang and x2 Ironblasters). He had Paper (BotWD) against your rock (blender lord). Next time take scissors (great weapon as your striking after him anyway).

Kahadras

Well, in actuality I should have beaten him in any case. However, 18 Wounds after ward saves on my savage orcs from his Str.4 spell hitting the entire unit (he rolled 24 wounds) killed me. Then I whiffed attacks on his phoenix, which would have given me flank on the WL, and he failed to run.

In all, I didn't want my blender Lord in there that turn. I wanted it the turn before, but it was my only chance at that point since I would have been charged in his turn.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-06-2013, 05:17
Sorry, if you can't deal with 21 guys with 1 attack, even if it is at S6 then your opinion about what is or isn't OP is slightly moot.


If you can't deal with critique not even levelled at you what are you even doing in this thread? I'm fairly sure no-one's holding a gun to your face - just get out of here and your small world might be whole again.


Then as a smart Daemon player you work the flanks. The HE player then has to decide does he sit still and wait for the weakened Daemon center to move up or does he wheel and support either of his flanks.

In which way is that a problem? Normal HE can win games, crush or protect flanks too. The HE player just decides, and that's that. The fact that you believe the Demon player has to be exceptionally smart and his capability has to be explicitly mentioned speaks volumes.


Add to it that everyone who's trying to claim Daemons aren't royally ********* by the banner have almost certainly not even read the new DoC army book and thus have 0 clue what they're even trying to talk about...

That's what it sounds like, indeed.



The banner really isn't an issue unless the HE player deliberatly goes out of his way to drop the bannerstar on a DoC player.


The Banner can shut down a magic or a shooting phase and delete units of Skullcrushers. How's that not an issue? That's what happens in practice, too.

DaemonReign
18-06-2013, 06:56
It might be somewhat 'balanced' if 3 times as expensive.
And still a very poorly constructed mechanic - i.e. for its uneven effect on different opponants (making its true value impossible to set) and basically for creating problems where there previously were none.

As someone who don't face High Elves (and would be facing decent opponants even if I did) this is a very simple conclusion to draw.
Trying to make this issue one of relatives and circumstance is, I guess, what you do if you want to feel justified in using this crutch.

Figment187
18-06-2013, 07:47
T10


To answer your OP my roomate and I play quite a bit and his favorite army is the HE. On his first time with the new book I knew he was going to run a cheese army so I played a massive dwarven gunline and re-cheesed him right back. Predictably it was an extremely boring game of me shooting a million times and smashing a giant unit of WL's with the everqueen.

After that he agreed to leave the banner out and the HE's are a tough army without the banner.

On a side note he played it one other time against another friend of mine and killed Karl Franz in a duel with only a noble. That is just insane and should tell you that something is wrong with the banner.

Anyone that says it's not overpowered is either a HE player or has not ran against it. Even my roomate says it's overpowered and he is diehard HE.

Rakariel
18-06-2013, 08:15
Not a fan of the banner at all. It sure as hell is not a balanced item, if it would be there wouldn`t be so much talk about it. I`m not as affected by it (not really playing Daemons, only now and then for fun as the whole book is lackluster) but still thinking its a rather poor design overall.

cptcosmic
18-06-2013, 09:11
first of all, the banner being unbeatable and too cheap are two different glasses of beer. it might be too cheap but it is for sure not unbeatable.

obviously many of those whiners have not played with and against banner lists at all. it is actually alot harder to win if the HE player runs a more balanced list with the banner than with big derpstar containing 75% of his points. big derpstar means low amount of support units thus easy redirection (and no, you dont redirect into a combat block, you redirect into another chaff unit to double flee :rolleyes: ) and voila you have free 600 points of core units to demolish. kill 600 points of core, sacrifice 300 points of chaff => you won. if the HE player thinks he is clever and charges out his noble, shot him down with warmachines and magic, free points after all.

it is really funny, HE used to play this avoidance game all the time in 8th before the new army book against pretty much everyone, now HE also got their skillstar and everyone cries. god forbid that everyone else also has to use strategy and redirectors to win against HE now instead of moving their horde units forward. :rolleyes:

Banville
18-06-2013, 09:37
Here's something that works. Play on a bigger table. You can avoid the thing and chaff units can actually work as they are supposed to.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-06-2013, 10:04
None of those "arguments" hold up to even cursory scrutiny, and all of them are based on false premises. Let's start with the most glaring insolence: It is not unbeatable. I say insolence because truisms like this are just empty words used to gloss over any given situation and ignore the details. Does anything need to be physically actually be unbeatable to be considered game-breaking? Playing 1k vs 2k doesn't make the latter unbeatable either...and we can all come up with completely skewed situations where this holds true - but as a matter of fact, that's a pretty hollow claim on its own.

Secondly, there is the deathstar. The assumption that deathstars are unsupported, that they cannot win the chaff war, or that everything but can be killed at your leisure is preposterous. That definition of a deathstar is simply cartoonish. I can easily make a deathstar with a couple of factions that includes more than enough hounds, bats, eagles, detachments, magic, shooting or whatnot to offer all the support I need. High Elves are no different. Like everyone else, they've got to fill core, and archers are good enough at killing those tigers and hounds.

Thirdly, "redirecting". Did you think that through? Did you notice the arguments against it? I don't know because you never answer such questions except with yet another arrogant remark. There are ways to deal with diverters other than to blindly charge a DS into them. Moreso, you actually need to force the DC to charge. It's easy to claim to be able to do that but a statement like "a free 600 points of core" is simply silly.

I'm actually sorry that the sparks are already flying again but pretending to know precisely how the future looks and games will inevitably run and acting as if your playing against someone as passive as a lamp post AND claiming that everything is great just because it's beatable regardless the (side)effects and conditions is plainly ridiculous.

Kahadras
18-06-2013, 13:29
In which way is that a problem? Normal HE can win games, crush or protect flanks too. The HE player just decides, and that's that. The fact that you believe the Demon player has to be exceptionally smart and his capability has to be explicitly mentioned speaks volumes.

Sorry I just though it was talking common sense. I've been in plenty of games where I've had to face down a unit that I can really deal with. The idea of minimising the amount of damage it can do is a good move. If a 'smart' High Elf player sets up his 21 strong White Lion block in the center then a 'smart' Daemon player doesn't fling his best units up the middle.


The Banner can shut down a magic or a shooting phase and delete units of Skullcrushers. How's that not an issue? That's what happens in practice, too.

Becase it's one shooting attack (that's magical) or one magic spell (that causes direct damage) or one combat (and only then with units that have magical attacks). As a DoC player pushing your Skullcrushers into a unit of White Lion without acertaining whether they have the banner is asking for trouble.

Kahadras

IcedCrow
18-06-2013, 13:39
If there are white lions on the table and my opponent has stuffed his arch mage in there along with other characters, I pretty much assume that the banner is in that unit as well.

cptcosmic
18-06-2013, 14:36
None of those "arguments" hold up to even cursory scrutiny, and all of them are based on false premises. Let's start with the most glaring insolence: It is not unbeatable. I say insolence because truisms like this are just empty words used to gloss over any given situation and ignore the details. Does anything need to be physically actually be unbeatable to be considered game-breaking? Playing 1k vs 2k doesn't make the latter unbeatable either...and we can all come up with completely skewed situations where this holds true - but as a matter of fact, that's a pretty hollow claim on its own.

Secondly, there is the deathstar. The assumption that deathstars are unsupported, that they cannot win the chaff war, or that everything but can be killed at your leisure is preposterous. That definition of a deathstar is simply cartoonish. I can easily make a deathstar with a couple of factions that includes more than enough hounds, bats, eagles, detachments, magic, shooting or whatnot to offer all the support I need. High Elves are no different. Like everyone else, they've got to fill core, and archers are good enough at killing those tigers and hounds.

Thirdly, "redirecting". Did you think that through? Did you notice the arguments against it? I don't know because you never answer such questions except with yet another arrogant remark. There are ways to deal with diverters other than to blindly charge a DS into them. Moreso, you actually need to force the DC to charge. It's easy to claim to be able to do that but a statement like "a free 600 points of core" is simply silly.

I'm actually sorry that the sparks are already flying again but pretending to know precisely how the future looks and games will inevitably run and acting as if your playing against someone as passive as a lamp post AND claiming that everything is great just because it's beatable regardless the (side)effects and conditions is plainly ridiculous.
beside the fact that some of your statements do not makes sense (or maybe you actually didnt read carefully what some people wrote on purpose), you just summarized a nice post that can be turned against you, your own arguments and all the banner of world dragon whiners without even knowing it :) you just saved me few minutes of my time, thank you! :rolleyes:

PS: I do not need to know how the future looks like but when the enemy has only 3 units on the table where one is worth more than half his of his points (and it is super obvious that this banner will be in that unit too) I can easily plan ahead. I would really like to see how you win that "chaff war" when you have almost no points left after the WL/PG/SM horde, 3-4 characters and mandatory core which is all T3 easy to kill type of core. you easily get outdropped & outplayed in the movement phase and as already mentioned a balanced list with the banner is alot stronger than one with a deathstar. I would also like to see how your big deathstar moves around when 300 points of chaff is dancing around it and no, I dont need to force charges from the deathstar, I want to prevent charges on my combat units and once I am in combat with the rest of your army (round 2 or 3) I am save from magic and shooting.

fact is, there are many ways to deal with this and your well disguised rage posts only indicate that you are terrible :)

Soundwave
18-06-2013, 15:06
This has been debated,continuously now for quite some time...my personal thoughts are if you "are" fielding three units with one hugging the banner you are going to war with a lion missing its teeth!Movement is the key and hard hitting for high elves,as a player "of" and opponent "against" i would prefer not to use the banner,but against sure,,,enter the lions gate!

Baluc
18-06-2013, 16:24
And that youre still only using not even half the book. Cherry picking the best units leaves you using a tiny fraction of the overall book.


Except that Daemons are special case, as our book tends to force us into a mainly mono-god build due to our laughably craptastic General & BSB rules... Using a full-on pantheon list is actually a massive disadvantage if you play Daemons!


None of those "arguments" hold up to even cursory scrutiny, and all of them are based on false premises. Let's start with the most glaring insolence: It is not unbeatable. I say insolence because truisms like this are just empty words used to gloss over any given situation and ignore the details. Does anything need to be physically actually be unbeatable to be considered game-breaking? Playing 1k vs 2k doesn't make the latter unbeatable either...and we can all come up with completely skewed situations where this holds true - but as a matter of fact, that's a pretty hollow claim on its own.

Secondly, there is the deathstar. The assumption that deathstars are unsupported, that they cannot win the chaff war, or that everything but can be killed at your leisure is preposterous. That definition of a deathstar is simply cartoonish. I can easily make a deathstar with a couple of factions that includes more than enough hounds, bats, eagles, detachments, magic, shooting or whatnot to offer all the support I need. High Elves are no different. Like everyone else, they've got to fill core, and archers are good enough at killing those tigers and hounds.

Thirdly, "redirecting". Did you think that through? Did you notice the arguments against it? I don't know because you never answer such questions except with yet another arrogant remark. There are ways to deal with diverters other than to blindly charge a DS into them. Moreso, you actually need to force the DC to charge. It's easy to claim to be able to do that but a statement like "a free 600 points of core" is simply silly.

I'm actually sorry that the sparks are already flying again but pretending to know precisely how the future looks and games will inevitably run and acting as if your playing against someone as passive as a lamp post AND claiming that everything is great just because it's beatable regardless the (side)effects and conditions is plainly ridiculous.

Lord the argument being put forth is an army with 75% of its points in the one special unit. Leaving only 25% of the points for core. Its a pretty extreme example and does more to disprove the OP of the banner than anything.

That being said what kind of HE deathstar is possible really, sadly that white lion unit can't handle several units that are part of the meta, starting with WofC chariots, hell even a single frost phoenix can deal with the white lion bunker. Both these solutions don't even require a spell to be cast.

That being said a Daemon player's best course of action is going to be to ascertain if the banner is on the unit. and then do your best to not mitigate the unit. Too many people are getting caught up on DofC being able to kill the unit. In the context of WHFB from the book, that army is severely punished by almost all the scenarios but battleline. Is it GWs responsibility to balance a game in which players actively don't use parts of.

Fanatik
18-06-2013, 16:26
I guess it's an issue of "fair" or "balance". I suppose if DoC players don't want us to use it, that fine. But by the same token it would be fair for HE players to ask DoC player to not use something, right? Say, Skullcannons for instance?

IcedCrow
18-06-2013, 16:27
Lord the argument being put forth is an army with 75% of its points in the one special unit. Leaving only 25% of the points for core. Its a pretty extreme example and does more to disprove the OP of the banner than anything.

That being said what kind of HE deathstar is possible really, sadly that white lion unit can't handle several units that are part of the meta, starting with WofC chariots, hell even a single frost phoenix can deal with the white lion bunker. Both these solutions don't even require a spell to be cast.

That being said a Daemon player's best course of action is going to be to ascertain if the banner is on the unit. and then do your best to not mitigate the unit. Too many people are getting caught up on DofC being able to kill the unit. In the context of WHFB from the book, that army is severely punished by almost all the scenarios but battleline. Is it GWs responsibility to balance a game in which players actively don't use parts of.

This does not apply to an "all comers" high elf army. Most high elf players are not going to deathstar a banner unit at a tournament because that will likely see them thrashed.

THis only applies when you know you are about to face a demon army and you tailor for it.

thesoundofmusica
18-06-2013, 17:07
This does not apply to an "all comers" high elf army. Most high elf players are not going to deathstar a banner unit at a tournament because that will likely see them thrashed.

THis only applies when you know you are about to face a demon army and you tailor for it.

If we're tailoring then I guess spamming Transmutation or Dwellers and a panic after.
Sure the Deathstar will reach combat but will have a really hard time making its points back and on the other side of the table smashing a single unit will win you the game.

Rough match-up. I enjoy the challenge.

Edit: from a DoC perspective.

NemoSD
18-06-2013, 17:07
Here is the funny thing, talking to a lot of HE players, we find the Banner of the World Dragon underwhelming, and really only use it if we have the points, are a couple of dragons, because fleeing dragons suck hard core.

Here is why: We are, in general, more concerned with our units being able to kill. A Phoenix Guard unit with a Razor banner gains a lot of teeth, Swordmaster with Alarielle's banner, receiving life spells and speed of light, etc... help bump them back to the extremely fast killers we are used to, plus the life spells help prevent the unit being wiped out because we rolled bad in our to hits. So on, so forth.

The banner's number one use, at least for me, is pissing off people who spout internet wisdom. When I know I will be playing one of them, I stick somewhere in the army, let them know, (Normally my Silver Helm with a Noble BSB) because then they don't charge it, and I get to charge into them. It is better than the cloak of beards in creating fear in your enemy :-p

Shadeseraph
18-06-2013, 18:37
How does it work in actual play?

One starts a thread about it, and warseer explodes in flames.

Scammel
18-06-2013, 19:27
Here is why: We are, in general, more concerned with our units being able to kill. A Phoenix Guard unit with a Razor banner gains a lot of teeth, Swordmaster with Alarielle's banner, receiving life spells and speed of light, etc... help bump them back to the extremely fast killers we are used to, plus the life spells help prevent the unit being wiped out because we rolled bad in our to hits. So on, so forth.


Pretty sure Alarielle in a chunky unit of White Lions with the banner easily sits on par with those. Just sit there a 6-dice Dwellers like a pro whilst handily munching pretty much anything in combat.

I have to say, looking at the quality of some of the arguments being presented here, it's pretty clear which side needs to 'L2P'. Rebuttals like these:


beside the fact that some of your statements do not makes sense (or maybe you actually didnt read carefully what some people wrote on purpose), you just summarized a nice post that can be turned against you, your own arguments and all the banner of world dragon whiners without even knowing it you just saved me few minutes of my time, thank you!


do not paint a fantastic image of the Warseer community.

dagreenmoonboyz
18-06-2013, 20:09
beside the fact that some of your statements do not makes sense (or maybe you actually didnt read carefully what some people wrote on purpose), you just summarized a nice post that can be turned against you, your own arguments and all the banner of world dragon whiners without even knowing it :) you just saved me few minutes of my time, thank you! :rolleyes:

PS: I do not need to know how the future looks like but when the enemy has only 3 units on the table where one is worth more than half his of his points (and it is super obvious that this banner will be in that unit too) I can easily plan ahead. I would really like to see how you win that "chaff war" when you have almost no points left after the WL/PG/SM horde, 3-4 characters and mandatory core which is all T3 easy to kill type of core. you easily get outdropped & outplayed in the movement phase and as already mentioned a balanced list with the banner is alot stronger than one with a deathstar. I would also like to see how your big deathstar moves around when 300 points of chaff is dancing around it and no, I dont need to force charges from the deathstar, I want to prevent charges on my combat units and once I am in combat with the rest of your army (round 2 or 3) I am save from magic and shooting.

fact is, there are many ways to deal with this and your well disguised rage posts only indicate that you are terrible :)

With 600 points of HE core and magic phases, I am unable to elucidate a method of eliminating your 300 points of chaff....:angel:

IronShark
18-06-2013, 21:16
In my area, we generally use 'all comer' type lists, and from that perspective, the Banner is unbalanced. Note I didn't say overpowered; over multiple games against multiple opponents, it'll average out. However, in some situations, it can be nigh game-breakingly good, and in other situations it's 50pts and a slot for a banner down the drain, and in yet other situations, it's about balanced.

For example, let's say you're playing against DE with Shadow. Maybe they've got a character with a magic weapon in there, but there are no other magic attacks, and the spells are mostly Augments/Hexes or nukes that ignore saves.

Against, say, Brettonia, with Life, they're a lot more likely to have some combat character's with magic weapons, and it'll ruin Grail Knights. In the magic phase, it's about Augments and Dwellers, so it's not doing anything there. It's about balanced against an average Bret list; the Bret player has to work to avoid it with the units it ruins, and the HE player has to work to bring it into combat with those units.

And then there's Daemons. Can a Daemon player win against HE with the banner? Yes. But it's still clearly overpowered in this situation and if two players are of roughly equal skill it's enough to tilt things solidly into the HE players advantage.

Havock
18-06-2013, 21:28
One starts a thread about it, and warseer explodes in flames.

TO be fair, most of the sane criticiscm was that it is less a case of broken and more a case of 'hilariously bad game design'.

Daenerys Targaryen
18-06-2013, 21:55
TO be fair, most of the sane criticiscm was that it is less a case of broken and more a case of 'hilariously bad game design'.
Bad games design for sure, but it does pretty much break both Daemons & Wood Elves, since outside of bow fire pretty much everything else being flung about is a magical attack. So it is heinously broken vs 2 entire armies. What's worse, for those Daemon players who endured the Durp Knights farce in 40k, this is now the second time Ward has outright destroyed our entire army! (or 3rd I guess, if you count the craptastic excuse of an army book we got handed...)

Tau_player001
18-06-2013, 23:18
Here is the funny thing, talking to a lot of HE players, we find the Banner of the World Dragon underwhelming, and really only use it if we have the points, are a couple of dragons, because fleeing dragons suck hard core.

What ? It's an autoinclude on any of my lists, even msu ones for my archmage bunker.

Lord Inquisitor
18-06-2013, 23:28
Here is the funny thing, talking to a lot of HE players, we find the Banner of the World Dragon underwhelming, and really only use it if we have the points, are a couple of dragons, because fleeing dragons suck hard core.

I attended the Bragging Rights team tournament in the NE USA last weekend. Teams from all over the USA competed with a very high standard of players. There were 6 high elf players and all 6 had the banner of the world dragon. I'd dispute that it isn't a competitive choice.

AmaroK
18-06-2013, 23:59
I attended the Bragging Rights team tournament in the NE USA last weekend. Teams from all over the USA competed with a very high standard of players. There were 6 high elf players and all 6 had the banner of the world dragon. I'd dispute that it isn't a competitive choice.

Well, I dont want to repeat myself, but if we consider the staff to rerol the miscasts is one use only, helps the mage only and it is half of the points of the banner, it is a no brainer choice even if you only want an insurance policy for misscasts, mage and troops. That aspect alone can be used in any game and against any enemy, and considering the price of 1 use wards for mages, or the regular ones, that people often use to protect their casters, it worth the inclusion. As a cherry on top, it gives a brutal edge against certain armies, normal to others... but the whole pack is very appealing... too appealing Id say

Daenerys Targaryen
19-06-2013, 00:19
What ? It's an autoinclude on any of my lists, even msu ones for my archmage bunker.

Agreed. In 5 games vs High Elves I have yet to see anyone not include the Banner of UltimateSkill Dragon. The miscast protection alone is worth the cost and the banner slot, as is the ability to simply laugh at Death sniping attempts.

DaemonReign
19-06-2013, 00:52
There will always be players reacting like this. I can somewhat relate. It sure wasn't fun coming into the Forums as a new Daemon player at the end of 7th. After a while it just felt personal and it's funny the tricks the mind can play on you at that point.
So you'll find Dark Elf players who don't 'really' rate the War Hydra or the Pendant, DoC players who would downplay having 40 Power Dice against 10 Dispel Dice in 7th Edition, and now, of course, people convincing themselves tBoTWD ain't busted..

If it was just 55pts these whine-threads wouldn't be a quarter as lengthy or common. It's the fact that you can stick it on a regular rnf-flag - completely out of reach - that makes it completely and utterly busted.
If you could only put it on a BSB it'd still be abyssmally bad design.. But then there's been a lot of that going around lately so again the length and frequency of these complaints probably wouldn't stand out at all.

Tau_player001
19-06-2013, 01:12
There will always be players reacting like this. I can somewhat relate. It sure wasn't fun coming into the Forums as a new Daemon player at the end of 7th. After a while it just felt personal and it's funny the tricks the mind can play on you at that point.
So you'll find Dark Elf players who don't 'really' rate the War Hydra or the Pendant, DoC players who would downplay having 40 Power Dice against 10 Dispel Dice in 7th Edition, and now, of course, people convincing themselves tBoTWD ain't busted..

If it was just 55pts these whine-threads wouldn't be a quarter as lengthy or common. It's the fact that you can stick it on a regular rnf-flag - completely out of reach - that makes it completely and utterly busted.
If you could only put it on a BSB it'd still be abyssmally bad design.. But then there's been a lot of that going around lately so again the length and frequency of these complaints probably wouldn't stand out at all.

Not really, the banner is just bad design, even on 55 pts i would use it, since well, i even use on it on a BSB depending on who is going to be my archmage bunker. Yes BSB can be sniped, but a BSB with the banner is very hard to be sniped by most ranged weapons that can snipe them. Close combat is different, but HE have the tools to help with that. The banner should be a 4++ or 5++. Then it would still be quite powerful, but not hilarious, and also would promote high magic mages instead of the BRB lores.

Btw my bad, because i actually didn't read your last phrase before answering, which pretty much says what i am saying at the beginning of my post. And we still get that, look at LM players deffending their slanns because "it's the only thing they can do".

IcedCrow
19-06-2013, 01:14
i think the brb lores are their way of competing with warmachine and thus they want to promote them.

Havock
19-06-2013, 03:04
i think the brb lores are their way of competing with warmachine and thus they want to promote them.

What do you mean? Competing with warmachines in game or competing with Warmachine the Privateer press game, because I don't think GW has quite un-stuck their head from ground/ass enough to see that they must 'compete'.

Baluc
19-06-2013, 03:23
And how did they place?

IcedCrow
19-06-2013, 03:34
What do you mean? Competing with warmachines in game or competing with Warmachine the Privateer press game, because I don't think GW has quite un-stuck their head from ground/ass enough to see that they must 'compete'.

Competing as in the playstyle where an uber caster dominates the game with uber spells, just like in warmachine. To me, in my little world, these nasty uber powerful spells are a direct result of them trying to attract the people that like warmachine for that playstyle (uber spell casting devastating the opposing force and having such a heavy impact)

Even if the directive wasn't to actually compete with privateer, I feel mat ward, the man whose name is on the brb, paid tribute to that game and influence when he unleashed hell with the #6 spells.

Daenerys Targaryen
19-06-2013, 03:56
Competing as in the playstyle where an uber caster dominates the game with uber spells, just like in warmachine. To me, in my little world, these nasty uber powerful spells are a direct result of them trying to attract the people that like warmachine for that playstyle (uber spell casting devastating the opposing force and having such a heavy impact)

Even if the directive wasn't to actually compete with privateer, I feel mat ward, the man whose name is on the brb, paid tribute to that game and influence when he unleashed hell with the #6 spells. I think you're giving Ward too much credit honestly... I mean, we're talking about the guy who first of all made the 7th ed Orcs & Gobbos completely suck because "I don't like Greenskins and didn't want this project", but then broke the game entire with Daemons because "they're Daemons - they should be over-powered.":wtf: The guy is simply a bad fanboy with little to no oversight keeping him in line, or as Tyrion would put it, "it's hard to leash a dog once you've put a crown on its head!"

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2013, 06:14
Sorry I just though it was talking common sense. I've been in plenty of games where I've had to face down a unit that I can really deal with. The idea of minimising the amount of damage it can do is a good move.

Oh, that's true enough. However, White Lions are usually considered rather fragile, and a unit of 21, even if it can be nasty will often still go down to enough attacks, in whichever phase. They don't look any different, so you simply don't know at deployment which drastically different type of unit they actually are. I mean their damage output is unchanged but being impervious to a vast range of attacks is quite bothersome. What's more, finding out if anyone has the Banner and who will stretch already stretched ressources even more. I find it rather difficult to throw a magic missile at everyone not only before combat is joined but before I can do anything about a potentially bad matchup.


beside the fact that some of your statements do not makes sense (or maybe you actually didnt read carefully what some people wrote on purpose), you just summarized a nice post that can be turned against you, your own arguments and all the banner of world dragon whiners without even knowing it :) you just saved me few minutes of my time, thank you! :rolleyes:


More slurs, still no palpable arguments. Who do you think you are going to convince of that PoV?

m1acca1551
19-06-2013, 06:17
[QUOTE=Daenerys Targaryen;6815110]I think you're giving Ward too much credit honestly... I mean, we're talking about the guy who first of all made the 7th ed Orcs & Gobbos completely suck because "I don't like Greenskins and didn't want this project", but then broke the game entire with Daemons because "they're Daemons - they should be over-powered.":wtf: The guy is simply a bad fanboy with little to no oversight keeping him in line, or as Tyrion would put it, "it's hard to leash a dog once you've put a crown on its head!"[/]

Ward is a fanboy of that there is no argument, he like what he likes and that has shown in a host of books he's done for good or for worse. I think iced crow was eluding to the fact that Ward had to include a nuke system in the magic phase, wether he was directed to by GW HQ or did it off his own back we will never really no.

I do have some faith in GW designers in that during play testing death staring would have been touched on, now what's easier? Redoing the whole premise of 8th being about hordes of troops or add an easy counter In the magic phase? Nuke spells were simply the easier choice, no fiddling around with unit cap and the like.

Unfortunately ward in his wisdom has created the anti counter in this banner, and priced it to a point to well it breaks elements of the game, nothing more, pure and simple poor ruling, I don't think it was maliciously intended other wise you would see other aspects of the book broken.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2013, 06:23
Lord the argument being put forth is an army with 75% of its points in the one special unit.


Oh, that was an argument? Whoops, that's kinda hard to see. ;) What does it say, that you can build a crappy list with the book? Sorry for the flippancy but I don't see how "tiny portion of the book" or "[something about Demons]" translates into "using 75 % of my HE points in one unit".

For the actual train of thought this "argument" is insubstantial anyways. The claim that the Banner makes it easier to get points from Elves is amusing but false.

cptcosmic
19-06-2013, 08:23
I attended the Bragging Rights team tournament in the NE USA last weekend. Teams from all over the USA competed with a very high standard of players. There were 6 high elf players and all 6 had the banner of the world dragon. I'd dispute that it isn't a competitive choice.
I bet they also used double frost phoenix. your point is?


Oh, that was an argument? Whoops, that's kinda hard to see. ;) What does it say, that you can build a crappy list with the book? Sorry for the flippancy but I don't see how "tiny portion of the book" or "[something about Demons]" translates into "using 75 % of my HE points in one unit".

For the actual train of thought this "argument" is insubstantial anyways. The claim that the Banner makes it easier to get points from Elves is amusing but false.
you just havent read what the initial "arguments" of those whiners were and you just havent read where I just said that a proper balanced list the the hard list to beat, not the one with a big giant herohammer unit. you were just posting for the sake of posting something and made yourself look stupid :rolleyes:

Kahadras
19-06-2013, 09:05
I find it rather difficult to throw a magic missile at everyone not only before combat is joined but before I can do anything about a potentially bad matchup.

Well unless you are playing very big games the location of the banner is probably fairly limited. Looking at the army book the units that can take the banner are...

BSB
White Lions
Swordmasters
Phoenix Guard
Dragon Princes

From then on you can start to figure out what the most likely units are. A small unit of Dragon Princes or the Phoenix Guard are going to be fairly unlikely candidates while a big unit of Dragon Princes or White Lions are probably your best bet. A unit from the above options that contains a combat Lord/Hero or an Archmage leans even futher towards being the unit carrying the banner. Deployment and movement of units could also be important in granting hints as to where the banner might be as well (which unit is he keen to match up against the 'best' unit in your army, which unit is he worried about you slowing down etc). You can probably boil the list of potential targets down to two or three units. From this hit the faster units first (Dragon Princes, Silver Helms with mounted BSB) and worry about the foot slogging stuff in later tunrs as it'll take them a couple of turns to get into charge range.

Kahadras

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2013, 10:16
I totally see where you're coming from but I fear our interpretation of "fairly limited" might be a bit different. Every unit that can have a banner or which can be joined by the BSB could have it. I don't think that the size of it is a good indicator. It could be on a big unit in order to protect it, or it could turn a small unit into a serious roadblock. 5 Silverhelms, a bus of Spearmen or a horde of White Lions are all potential candidates and the former can be pretty certain to hold up a unit of Skullcrushers or Knights and take it out of the game.



you just havent read ...and you just havent read ... you were just posting... you made yourself look stupid :rolleyes:

That's an unusually impressive and elaborate chain of arguments for you but we're still all aching from uncontrolled bursts of hilarity from your other posts. :)

GrandmasterWang
19-06-2013, 11:52
Have you actually played against the banner cptcosmic? If so would you mind giving some real world examples of what you are saying. Also what armies are you using?

I haven't played any tournament games since high elves so haven't experienced it at its 'best'

Playing a 1500 pt game as daemons I got rolled by a 5 man Dragon prince unit rocking the banner (opponent is chilled. knows banner is op. only uses it on small units).

playing friendly games as high elves I have yet to use it (I'd need some epic looking banner with a Dragon which I don't currently have)

More game examples please like the topic says.

to the person who dwarven gunlined the lion banner star. What did you shoot it with? handguns/ cross bows? unruned war machines? if the latter did you know prior what you were facing beforehand?

Dwarfs are my main army and I can't see the best way of taking out the bannerstar before it hits (non tailored).

Does the anvil movement stooge stop the high elf movement spell working properly?

Kahadras
19-06-2013, 17:52
I totally see where you're coming from but I fear our interpretation of "fairly limited" might be a bit different. Every unit that can have a banner or which can be joined by the BSB could have it. I don't think that the size of it is a good indicator. It could be on a big unit in order to protect it, or it could turn a small unit into a serious roadblock. 5 Silverhelms, a bus of Spearmen or a horde of White Lions are all potential candidates and the former can be pretty certain to hold up a unit of Skullcrushers or Knights and take it out of the game.

Every unit can have the banner but only one unit will have the banner. If your opponant sets up a unit of 5 Silver Helms with a BSB across from your Skullcrushers or your Knights it would be the perfect candidate to lob a magic missile into on the first turn. Dragon Prince blocks or Silver Helm blocks with BSB need to be the first to worry about as they have the mobility to quickly close with units with magical attacks that you opponant wants out of the game. To be frank though WoC have plenty of things to deal with small units of HE knights. Stuff like Chariots and Chimera will chew them up and have the mobility to get the charge.

If the Banner is in one of your opponants block units then again just weigh up where it's going to be. A bus of spearmen is only going to have the banner if the BSB is with them. Your Skullcrushers and Knights are far more mobile than all of the HE infantry choices so you'll usualy be commiting to the combat rather than the other way round. It might mean that you have to use your Skullcrushrs and Knights to go after units that can't have the banner while deploying your mundane attacks against those units which could potentialy have it.

Kahadras

Lord Inquisitor
19-06-2013, 18:01
I bet they also used double frost phoenix. your point is?

The statement put forward by NemoSD was that most competitive players don't even bother with the banner or only if they have points spare, implying that overall the banner was not worth more than the points associated with it. My point was that this doesn't seem to be the case or we wouldn't see it in highly optimised lists.

And no, they didn't all use the frost phoenix. There was quite a bit of variety in HE lists although most did have the BotWD on a horde of white lions.

Scammel
19-06-2013, 18:10
As an aside, one of my regular opponents regularly uses a pair of Firehearts to redirect and even those he's pretty bad at it (often redirecting pointless things or doing it at an unfavourable angle) the fact that they're likely to explode right of top of the unit that's just killed them (provided the unit being redirected is 'ard enough) or potentially even pop right back up to do the whole thing all over again.

Gradek
19-06-2013, 19:38
After having played about half a dozen games against the banner with both my Empire and WoC, I am going to reiterate VERY BROKEN. The thing is, 8th edition was already the deathstar edition and deathstars are still highly competitive choices (ie, all the arguments about how easy it is to redirect and what not are moot, since those apply to all deathstars). The banner doesn't really force you to change army comp at all, as it goes into what was already likely to exist (ie a deathstar of WL or PG) with the only potential difference being the placement of the archmage (now in the deathstar for miscast protection). This banner effectively creates a huge points denial against many armies and a virtual trump card against others at essentially no cost (to either comp or points). While yes, one can potentially win by avoiding the banner (notwithstanding the elves ethereal movement spell), that assumes the rest of the army is a pushover (it is definitely not) and that the elf player sucks (again not necessarily true). The reality of the banner is that against a number of armies the game effectively gives the opponent a max potential VP of 800 less than the elf player, thus giving the elf player an enormous advantage.

Kahadras
19-06-2013, 20:12
While yes, one can potentially win by avoiding the banner (notwithstanding the elves ethereal movement spell), that assumes the rest of the army is a pushover (it is definitely not) and that the elf player sucks (again not necessarily true). The reality of the banner is that against a number of armies the game effectively gives the opponent a max potential VP of 800 less than the elf player, thus giving the elf player an enormous advantage.

The only army that needs to avoid the bannerstar is the army that only has magical attacks (DoC). An army like Empire should just laugh at it. All of their basic warmachines don't have magical attacks, all of their shooting isn't magical, they can generate a ton of close combat units that don't have magical attacks and they have access to the magic lores that bypass the BotWD's 2+ ward save.

Kahadras

Gradek
19-06-2013, 20:17
The only army that needs to avoid the bannerstar is the army that only has magical attacks (DoC). An army like Empire should just laugh at it. All of their basic warmachines don't have magical attacks, all of their shooting isn't magical, they can generate a ton of close combat units that don't have magical attacks and they have access to the magic lores that bypass the BotWD's 2+ ward save.

Kahadras

Simply not true. It's not like the banner is on a small unit of slaves, it is going to be in a decent sized unit of otherwise good elven elite troops. Many armies normal counter to that would include magical attacks (WoC, Wood Elves, Vampires, etc). The reality of the banner is that it is a huge points denial against many armies and it can still roll over many units in it's own right.

Scammel
19-06-2013, 20:23
I think the strengths of the item go deeper than that. The miscast protection that it affords allows almost all caution to be thrown to the wind and a wizard squatting in the unit can quite happily 6-dice kill spells all day. Kill spells like Dwellers, which Alarielle has access to - the same Alarielle who also gives her unit a 5+ ward against non-magical attacks, covering the 'weakness' of the banner pretty well. The fact that the unit in question is likely to be a tough one that you might usually depend on your own magic or characters to help deal with compounds the issue for opponents.

ewar
19-06-2013, 22:49
If you can't deal with critique not even levelled at you what are you even doing in this thread? I'm fairly sure no-one's holding a gun to your face - just get out of here and your small world might be whole again.

Whoops - another bad day at the office LSP?

I don't even know why you're replying to my post, it was directed as someone who not only complains BOTWD is OP, but apparently everything in the whole book is OP. Which, you know, kind of renders their critical reasoning suspect. In much the same way your commentary does here by the way.

Not a single new thought or opinion has been brought to this thread that hasn't been hashed out a thousand times before. I find it baffling that the same people can be bothered to post over and over again - we're at the point now that we may as well just copy and paste the contents of the previous thread to save the wear and tear on our keyboards.

Tau_player001
19-06-2013, 22:54
The only army that needs to avoid the bannerstar is the army that only has magical attacks (DoC). An army like Empire should just laugh at it. All of their basic warmachines don't have magical attacks, all of their shooting isn't magical, they can generate a ton of close combat units that don't have magical attacks and they have access to the magic lores that bypass the BotWD's 2+ ward save.

Kahadras

Look, the uses of the banner aren't just to laugh at demons while they pillow fight you. Talking about X armies which can deal just fine with it, isn't also a good point, because we can talk about the lists/armies which actually rely on magical attacks to get things done. But also, the banner gives you a free pass to 6dice all the time. There is no backdraw to it. You say only deathstar units of white lions or dragon knights may use it, but that's far from the truth, any unit also containing an archmage can also use it, and while the BSB isn't the perfect option, it's optimal on different army lists where you want your archmage on a different bunker (like on a unit of archers), a unit that normally won't see combat, and synergize pretty well with ockham razors (which you can 6 dice and not worry about it thanks to the banner) is perfectly a fine bunker for the archmage. Not every army has ranged mundane attacks, neither warmachines or access to magic lores with 6th spells that doesn't check on iniative, and even then, look out sir is still accessible plus dragon armour, so the BSB is resilient enough.

The banner, is an autoinclude on every list i can think of. Mind you, not because i need it to win, but because the protection it brings to the table for its price is too good to pass on.

And i am not saying it's not better spent on X units, i am saying that for the point cost, it's just too good to pass on so it doesn't matter. Y army has no problems with the banner doesn't make Z army not have a problem with it, and for its point cost, you are not really giving away anything that the Y army opponent will "just laugh at you for getting the banner" (i know you didn't say this, i am just trying to formulate my point).

The banner should be a 4++ and 50 points only accessible to prince dragons imho, or +75 with the 2++, only prince dragons too. If you deathstar that unit, it will cost you a lot.

NemoSD
20-06-2013, 01:17
The statement put forward by NemoSD was that most competitive players don't even bother with the banner or only if they have points spare, implying that overall the banner was not worth more than the points associated with it. My point was that this doesn't seem to be the case or we wouldn't see it in highly optimised lists.

And no, they didn't all use the frost phoenix. There was quite a bit of variety in HE lists although most did have the BotWD on a horde of white lions.

Do not misquote me, I said most HE players in my area, that does not translate to "most competitive" which is used to refer to the tournament scenes. This is not a tournament centric game, and this when I analyze rules and such, I do so from the spirit of a complex board game.

I even prefaced it with a warning that this was anecdotal.

HurrDurr
20-06-2013, 01:41
People forget that a miscast usually drains a lot of PD, some RnF dying is usually the least of a players worries, I think the strongest factor is the 2+ wardsave.

I think it's more of, say the banner was in any way a good idea, and you're a troll. But if all it does vs some armies is "gives your unit a 2+ ward save vs miscast dmg" then woohoo so imba.

m1acca1551
20-06-2013, 02:37
The only army that needs to avoid the bannerstar is the army that only has magical attacks (DoC). An army like Empire should just laugh at it. All of their basic warmachines don't have magical attacks, all of their shooting isn't magical, they can generate a ton of close combat units that don't have magical attacks and they have access to the magic lores that bypass the BotWD's 2+ ward save.

Kahadras

Yes this true, yet... We have to look at the fact that the star is not the only unit the elves will bring to the party, the same argument is used for dwarfs with there shooting, now granted empire arty lines are not magic dependant but the following counters them to well.

- flying units eagles phoenixes are able to tie up cannons turn 2
- offensive magic targets our chaff and cannons with impunity
- access to cheap and very effective archers picking off arty crew and chaff
- there HE very good magic defence
- yay lets 6 dice our way to victory!!! OMG I'm such a clever cunning skilled general

Combat is well... A certain way and empire can ground and pound, yet even out elites wether it be knights or great swords are mere novices against elven elites backed up lord and heroes toting magical weapons of can opening nastiness.

I'm not arguing that it can't be done, just pushing crap uphill unless you wish to fight cheese with cheese. Horde armies have the best chance to deal with them as they have cheap tarpit unit to feed the enemy.

Figment187
20-06-2013, 03:50
GrandmasterWang

The gunline I used was all non-magical, most of my core were quarellers with great weapons, 2cannons, 4 bolt throwers, 1 grudgethrower, named anvil( which does indeed slow the unit with the banner regardless of damage dealt and any flyers you can target) I also brought a unit of miners to take care of his bolt throwers. I also knew before hand he was going to take the banner and the everqueen in the same unit. I basically focus fired that unit and kept it slowed, shooting any flyers getting to close. It was a boring game but just wanted to prove the cheesy army build to him. I also used runesmiths to dispel and eat spells and for extra dispel dice. We usually play a 2250 game.

Don Zeko
20-06-2013, 05:12
Every unit can have the banner but only one unit will have the banner. If your opponant sets up a unit of 5 Silver Helms with a BSB across from your Skullcrushers or your Knights it would be the perfect candidate to lob a magic missile into on the first turn. Dragon Prince blocks or Silver Helm blocks with BSB need to be the first to worry about as they have the mobility to quickly close with units with magical attacks that you opponant wants out of the game. To be frank though WoC have plenty of things to deal with small units of HE knights. Stuff like Chariots and Chimera will chew them up and have the mobility to get the charge.

If the Banner is in one of your opponants block units then again just weigh up where it's going to be. A bus of spearmen is only going to have the banner if the BSB is with them. Your Skullcrushers and Knights are far more mobile than all of the HE infantry choices so you'll usualy be commiting to the combat rather than the other way round. It might mean that you have to use your Skullcrushrs and Knights to go after units that can't have the banner while deploying your mundane attacks against those units which could potentialy have it.

Kahadras

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, Kahadras, but I think this line of reasoning is a pretty common error people make when they're arguing that such-and-such isn't actually as imbalanced as it seems: it mostly ignores the fact that there's a guy on the other side of the table who is trying to get the most out of the banner. So let's take the example of an army with some units that are totally dependent upon magical attacks, while others are all mundane (WoC maybe, or perhaps VC fits the bill). It's certainly true that you can narrow down the banner location to two or three units very quickly, and then use magic missiles or whatever to confirm your hunch. But the thing is, if you're discovering it with a magic missile on turn 1 or turn 2, there's likely not any time left to actually do anything about it. You've deployed, the other guy has deployed, and he knew full well which unit he wanted to fight your Vampire Lord holding a magic sword, while you didn't know which unit to avoid.

Saying that an item or unit is no big deal so long as you pick which unit engages it and how is almost entirely meaningless. Almost the entirety of a game of Warhammer consists of two players disputing which units will fight each other and in which context. To assume that you get the match-up you want is to assume that you win the game. You might as well just say that the Banner is terrible if your opponent rolls 1's all the time. it's true, but irrelevant for determining how the banner effects the balance of the game when played between two skilled generals.

Kahadras
20-06-2013, 09:25
Yes this true, yet... We have to look at the fact that the star is not the only unit the elves will bring to the party, the same argument is used for dwarfs with there shooting, now granted empire arty lines are not magic dependant but the following counters them to well.

- flying units eagles phoenixes are able to tie up cannons turn 2
- offensive magic targets our chaff and cannons with impunity
- access to cheap and very effective archers picking off arty crew and chaff
- there HE very good magic defence
- yay lets 6 dice our way to victory!!! OMG I'm such a clever cunning skilled general

The star might not be the only unit the High Elves bring but it will be a big chunk of what he brings. There are things you could try in responce. Flying units might tie up your cannons on turn two but you can shoot at them on turn one. His Archers might be good but yours are cheaper (as are your crossbowmen). His Magic defence might be pumped by the book but Empire get access to far more channeling attempts (cheaper wizards, warrior priests) and stuff like the Hurricanum/Luminark.


I don't mean to pick on you in particular, Kahadras, but I think this line of reasoning is a pretty common error people make when they're arguing that such-and-such isn't actually as imbalanced as it seems: it mostly ignores the fact that there's a guy on the other side of the table who is trying to get the most out of the banner. So let's take the example of an army with some units that are totally dependent upon magical attacks, while others are all mundane (WoC maybe, or perhaps VC fits the bill). It's certainly true that you can narrow down the banner location to two or three units very quickly, and then use magic missiles or whatever to confirm your hunch. But the thing is, if you're discovering it with a magic missile on turn 1 or turn 2, there's likely not any time left to actually do anything about it. You've deployed, the other guy has deployed, and he knew full well which unit he wanted to fight your Vampire Lord holding a magic sword, while you didn't know which unit to avoid.

Saying that an item or unit is no big deal so long as you pick which unit engages it and how is almost entirely meaningless. Almost the entirety of a game of Warhammer consists of two players disputing which units will fight each other and in which context. To assume that you get the match-up you want is to assume that you win the game. You might as well just say that the Banner is terrible if your opponent rolls 1's all the time. it's true, but irrelevant for determining how the banner effects the balance of the game when played between two skilled generals.

Looking at it from the other way it's easy to say an item is overpowered by ignoring the fact that there is a guy on the other side of the table looking to minimise the impact that the banner carrying unit has on the game. Although the High Elf player has the initial advantage in knowing where the banner is this can be quickly lost and the opposing player can then gain a benefit from knowing where it is. Even at the start of the game the High Elf player can't take full advantage of knowing where the banner is by making his desire for the match up between his banner unit and the Vampire Lord (for instance) too obvious. Warhammer is all about the match ups. The whole idea of the High Elf player getting his banner into the Vampire Lord is to make the Vampire Lords combat ability meaningless.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't a closed deal. Saying that the Banner is good against magical attacks is fine but it's ignoring the game that goes on around getting that match up. Let's also not forget that Vampire Lords don't need to take magic attacks. The High Elf player is also relying on his opponant keeping his side of the 'deal' and running with units he can take advantage of.

Kahadras

Lord Solar Plexus
20-06-2013, 10:12
Whoops - another bad day at the office LSP?


Nah, just wondering about why you need to complain about something that doesn't need to bother you in the first place. Admittedly you're not the only one but that doesn't make it any more plausible. It's your choice to participate here, and if you don't like to, what's the problem?



I don't even know why you're replying to my post


*I* don't know why you're replying to anything in a thread you hate to read.



Not a single new thought or opinion has been brought to this thread that hasn't been hashed out a thousand times before.

So once you've concluded that everyone on Warseer is supposed to shut up? Doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Once more: If you're that bored or aggravated or whatever, you have the option to read something else. The solution is just one click away. Why pick on people who are still interested?

theunwantedbeing
20-06-2013, 10:49
Long story short.
Defend this banner, and you're a troll.

That is the popular opinion.

That being said, unless you over-rely on magical attacks the banner really isn't particularly problematic.

underscore
20-06-2013, 12:43
That being said, unless you over-rely on magical attacks the banner really isn't particularly problematic.
There it is though; it would be fine if it wasn't for a lot of armies out there having some level of reliance on magical damage and the fact that it's such an absurdly hard counter to them all.

IcedCrow
20-06-2013, 13:18
Campaign game last night: banner sat in a unit of 22 white lions led by a prince(ess) and bsb. Only mage was on the sun dragon.

Had no effect in the game because the chaos player knew it would be there and declined to take any magical weapons.

However the white lions diced up his warrior unit quite badly ;) ( battle report forthcoming)

Gradek
20-06-2013, 13:30
Campaign game last night: banner sat in a unit of 22 white lions led by a prince(ess) and bsb. Only mage was on the sun dragon.

Had no effect in the game because the chaos player knew it would be there and declined to take any magical weapons.

However the white lions diced up his warrior unit quite badly ;) ( battle report forthcoming)

Actually it had a huge effect on the game, since the Chaos player had to take a list with no magic weapons and thus fight with a sub-par list. And of course it's biggest effect was pre-game, since it completely altered the list of the player (who obviously knew ahead of time, something that won't be the case in many games).

IcedCrow
20-06-2013, 13:39
i guess it depends on your environment (in ours, you typically know who you are playing ahead of time) but yes it does alter list construction quite a bit because no one wants to be stuck with a unit that has magic weapons that are made out of nerf material.

N1AK
20-06-2013, 14:34
That is the popular opinion.

That being said, unless you over-rely on magical attacks the banner really isn't particularly problematic.

That isn't true. If you don't use offensive magic, don't mind your opponent being able to 6 dice everything and have virtually no magic attacks then it isn't overly problematic. MR5 alone is worth 30pts+, add on miscast protection and virtual immunity to most characters attacks, then stack immunity to a wide range of units that would normally be good counters and 50pts looks like a huge mistake.

I honestly can't understand why people don't see it as the best choice in the book. Even if you didn't run magic having a unit nearly immune to it and virtually invulnerable to characters (who almost all have magical attacks) is crazy good.

theunwantedbeing
20-06-2013, 14:46
There it is though; it would be fine if it wasn't for a lot of armies out there having some level of reliance on magical damage and the fact that it's such an absurdly hard counter to them all.

A lot of armies take the banner that gives you flaming attacks.
Yet dragon princes don't appear to be overpowered and unstoppable against such players.

They(DP) get a 2+ ward vs that unit.
Clearly they are overpowered and unfair.....right?

IcedCrow
20-06-2013, 14:47
That isn't true. If you don't use offensive magic, don't mind your opponent being able to 6 dice everything and have virtually no magic attacks then it isn't overly problematic. MR5 alone is worth 30pts+, add on miscast protection and virtual immunity to most characters attacks, then stack immunity to a wide range of units that would normally be good counters and 50pts looks like a huge mistake.

I honestly can't understand why people don't see it as the best choice in the book. Even if you didn't run magic having a unit nearly immune to it and virtually invulnerable to characters (who almost all have magical attacks) is crazy good.

I think the fact that most competitive lists as of now seem to universally feature the banner is a strong indicator that in reality most elf players know its crazy good for what it does.

underscore
20-06-2013, 15:22
Clearly they are overpowered and unfair.....right?
They would be if various armies reliance on flaming attacks were comparable with their reliance on magical damage.

Rakariel
20-06-2013, 15:27
i guess it depends on your environment (in ours, you typically know who you are playing ahead of time) but yes it does alter list construction quite a bit because no one wants to be stuck with a unit that has magic weapons that are made out of nerf material.

Same here. As much as I dislike the banner due to its bad design I wouldn`t break a sweat because people in my gaming environment take mostly not very powerful lists anyway therefore that one banner hardly makes alot of difference (atleast for me).

Lord Inquisitor
20-06-2013, 15:43
A lot of armies take the banner that gives you flaming attacks.
Yet dragon princes don't appear to be overpowered and unstoppable against such players.

They(DP) get a 2+ ward vs that unit.
Clearly they are overpowered and unfair.....right?

Well it is unfair. In the same vein that ethereals are unfair against mundane attacks. It's not really fair from the perspective that units that are fairly costed in general have a big mismatch if they encounter each other.

These are tolerated because this sort of "paper-rock-scissors" part of the game is very minor. There's a reason ethereal-heavy armies are typically comped in tournaments and it isn't just because it is powerful but because who wants to play a three hour round of rock paper scissors?

The big issue with the BotWD is that we're talking about protection against big chunks of the game including a whole army. If chaos warriors had flaming attacks across the board you might well have big issues with a unit of 2+ flame ward guys.

Borgomos
20-06-2013, 15:58
A lot of armies take the banner that gives you flaming attacks.
Yet dragon princes don't appear to be overpowered and unstoppable against such players.

They(DP) get a 2+ ward vs that unit.
Clearly they are overpowered and unfair.....right?

Are we seriously comparing the prevalence of flaming attacks vs magical attacks, considering the latter encompasses spells, magic weapons, miscast results etc etc...?
Not taking a Flaming Banner hardly gimps your army.

I do not really think of it as a god-awful-broken item, but it is just plain undercosted and the design concept just irks me.

Vipoid
20-06-2013, 16:21
A lot of armies take the banner that gives you flaming attacks.
Yet dragon princes don't appear to be overpowered and unstoppable against such players.

They(DP) get a 2+ ward vs that unit.
Clearly they are overpowered and unfair.....right?

Not particularly.

1) This may vary a little between armies, but generally Flaming attacks tend to be rarer than Magic Attacks. In the magic phase, all direct damage spells are magic, but only a small minority are flaming. Likewise, when equipping a Lord or Hero, there might be 1 or 2 magic weapons that grant flaming attacks, but all magic weapons bestow magic attacks. Bear in mind that, whilst it's easy to say "don't give him a magic weapon." some lords don't have any options for mundane weapons. So, a 2+ ward against flaming will maybe knock 1 or 2 weapons off the list. The banner knocks every weapon off the list.

2) Flaming Attacks rarely correlate with strong attacks. On the other hand, it's often the case that magic attacks are more effective than non-magic ones in a particular army. The point being, a lot of attacks that can penetrate dragon prince armour aren't flaming. On the other hand, quite a few of those will be magical.

3) Characters that join the knights won't instantly gain a 2+ ward vs. flaming, simply for being in the same unit. The same can't be said for the banner. Of course, the characters could well end up with a 2+ ward vs. flaming by other means, but that's another matter. :p

Tau_player001
20-06-2013, 16:31
Dragon princes's rule is only really useful against lore of metal, and maybe dwarf warmachines depending on their rune setup (the banner would help against both, btw, do you start to see where your analogy falls apart ?). And with the current state of the game, name one single army that rely only on metal lore to kill T3 2+ armor save cavalry.

N1AK
20-06-2013, 16:31
A lot of armies take the banner that gives you flaming attacks.
Yet dragon princes don't appear to be overpowered and unstoppable against such players.

They(DP) get a 2+ ward vs that unit.
Clearly they are overpowered and unfair.....right?

Oh analogies are always fun. I never realised that the flaming banner made you virtually immune to all magic and protected your mage and the unit from miscasts!... Oh wait, it doesn't? :rolleyes:

Kahadras
20-06-2013, 17:48
Oh analogies are always fun. I never realised that the flaming banner made you virtually immune to all magic and protected your mage and the unit from miscasts!... Oh wait, it doesn't?

On the other hand I didn't realise that the Banner of the World Dragon made you immune to all magic and offered complete protection from the miscast table.

I have every sympathy for Daemon players and I agree that they have a valid complaint against the item as there's no real way to get around it apart from avoiding the unit (which the HE player can make really difficult just by putting the banner in a unit of Dragon Princes). What I'm not so sure about are people who are complaining that their Skullcrushers with ensorcelled weapons suddenly can't run over everything in the High Elf army or that there's a target that all those runed up Dwarven cannons can't deal with or that the blender Vampire Lord occasionaly doesn't blend anymore.

Kahadras

spagg
20-06-2013, 18:10
I have absolutely no hate for the High Elves and i am happy they got a good book. However, the banner is grossly under costed.

Don Zeko
20-06-2013, 18:14
The High Elf player is also relying on his opponant keeping his side of the 'deal' and running with units he can take advantage of.

Sure, but many of the things that teh banner protects you from are also some of the stronger choices available. If a 50-point banner starts dissuading your VC opponents from taking Terrorgheists, prompts your dwarf opponents to take their war machines with no runes, and gets your WoC opponents to forgo ensorcerelled weapons on skullcrushers or a Daemon prince, that banner has done quite a bit for you, even if you never take a save with it. And then there's Daemons, where I think we can almost all agree that the banner is completely unreasonable.

Kahadras
20-06-2013, 18:50
Sure, but many of the things that teh banner protects you from are also some of the stronger choices available. If a 50-point banner starts dissuading your VC opponents from taking Terrorgheists, prompts your dwarf opponents to take their war machines with no runes, and gets your WoC opponents to forgo ensorcerelled weapons on skullcrushers or a Daemon prince, that banner has done quite a bit for you, even if you never take a save with it.

It's almost as though it's an item that's there to disuade people from packing their list with Terrorgheists, runed up warmachines and tooled up Skullcrushers. I would have thought that people would be a bit happier that people are now having to concider whether they can just spam the 'stronger choices' of their list.

Kahadras

Lord Inquisitor
20-06-2013, 19:09
It's almost as though it's an item that's there to disuade people from packing their list with Terrorgheists, runed up warmachines and tooled up Skullcrushers. I would have thought that people would be a bit happier that people are now having to concider whether they can just spam the 'stronger choices' of their list.

Kahadras
Oh I see its a clever bit of design. Make these magical things too good then put the banner in to counter them! Much better than just costing these magical things properly. Clearly it's meant to make me think twice about taking magical attacks! Like... the entire daemon army.

Kahadras
20-06-2013, 19:24
Oh I see its a clever bit of design. Make these magical things too good then put the banner in to counter them! Much better than just costing these magical things properly. Clearly it's meant to make me think twice about taking magical attacks! Like... the entire daemon army.

Not a clever bit of design in the slightest. However complaining because the item means you can't just push a unit of tooled up Skullcrushers into the unit and win doesn't make the item broken. The BotWD doesn't work as a magic item because of DoC. It's not OP because it protects a unit from direct damage spells, it's not OP because it minimises potential casualties from miscasts and it's not OP because it means the blender Vampire Lord won't blend that particular unit.

Kahadras

theunwantedbeing
20-06-2013, 19:39
Sure, but many of the things that teh banner protects you from are also some of the stronger choices available. If a 50-point banner starts dissuading your VC opponents from taking Terrorgheists, prompts your dwarf opponents to take their war machines with no runes, and gets your WoC opponents to forgo ensorcerelled weapons on skullcrushers or a Daemon prince, that banner has done quite a bit for you, even if you never take a save with it.

Terrorgheists can scream at something else or maybe just fight the unit in combat.
Dwarven runic artillery can shoot something else
Chaos Knights, Daemon Princes & Skullcrushers can attempt to fight something else
etc....

The presence of the banner doesn't screw over those things, it just means they have a target that is very difficult for them to deal with and are best used to combat something else.

Just like if you took the Banner of Eternal Flame on a unit and found you were facing Dragon princes.
You can fight them anyway and complain at how unfair dragon princes are, or you can attempt to fight something else and use a different method to deal with those dragon princes.

Djekar
20-06-2013, 19:53
It's not OP because it protects a unit from direct damage spells, it's not OP because it minimises potential casualties from miscasts and it's not OP because it means the blender Vampire Lord won't blend that particular unit.

I believe that those things together do make it OP. When MR3 costs 45 and has to be taken on a character, the banner is ridiculous on it's face.

DaemonReign
20-06-2013, 21:08
Well you could put it like this:
The 'miscast-protection' alone is pretty much worth 50pts.
Not that you can actually buy 2+ Wardsave from the BRB, and even if you could it'd be on a single mage and not his entire unit..
But for the sake of argument let's say "2+ Wardsave for the character and his unit against Damage Caused by Miscasts " is worth 50pts - keep in mind this is just 'for the sake of argument' cuz in reality it's worth more..
Still, Everything else you're getting with tBotWD is pure bona-fide bonus.
Add to this how it royally screws certain Army Books while leaving others virtually untouched and you're looking at probably the biggest design-blooper in relevant memory.

Sure it's all been said Before but *hey now* trolls keep trolling who are we not to feed them?? ;)
Besides, with something as blatant as this there's really no way of overstating things.. It can't be pointed out enough how much sloppy design like this ruins a game that we all love. We shouldn't shut up about it. We shouldn't ever accept it. It's not 'ok' in any way.

Shadeseraph
20-06-2013, 21:17
TO be fair, most of the sane criticiscm was that it is less a case of broken and more a case of 'hilariously bad game design'.

No, I agree with that. But we already have 4 other threads about this same banner, all of them with an age of, at most, a month, and a minimum of 10 pages. One of them is 67 pages long.

And then we have this thread, which is already 8 pages long and is just rehashing the same battered arguments than the other threads.

This banner is Troll/Flame War bait in its purest state.

Lord Inquisitor
20-06-2013, 21:18
Not a clever bit of design in the slightest. However complaining because the item means you can't just push a unit of tooled up Skullcrushers into the unit and win doesn't make the item broken. The BotWD doesn't work as a magic item because of DoC. It's not OP because it protects a unit from direct damage spells, it's not OP because it minimises potential casualties from miscasts and it's not OP because it means the blender Vampire Lord won't blend that particular unit.

Kahadras

Well, OP and unbalanced are two different things. If it costed 150 points it would still be just an unbalanced as now, but much less likely to be considered overpowered.

I'm a fan of less unbalanced stuff in the game and 8th in general seems to have headed more in the direction of rock-paper-scissors style design with flaming attacks for everyone but fire wards for everyone, much increased regen availability (compared with say 6th edition). HE have a whole host of such rock-paper-scissors elements like teh everqueen giving wards against mundane and multiple units with firewards and so on.

FWIW I also happen to think it is undercosted. I think if it were a "BSB-only" item it would be a lot more maneagable but for the current cost I expect to see it in every competitive HE list because why the hell wouldn't you take it. It has a lot more applications beyond just shoving it on a horde of white lions. A mounted deathstar is a lot more viable thanks to the banner for example, a mage in the unit isn't a knight-killing timebomb and it would protect them from a lot of spells that threaten cavalry.

Don Zeko
20-06-2013, 21:22
I believe that those things together do make it OP. When MR3 costs 45 and has to be taken on a character, the banner is ridiculous on it's face.

Exactly. It's like looking at the skullcannon and saying that hey, there's nothing OP in general about a flaming magical cannonball, or about a chariot with its statline that gets wounds back. The points value matters. Similarly, if the BotWD was 100 points it wouldn't be a problem for anyone besides Daemons (meaning that, in a tournament environment, it would be fine for Demons too, since nobody would take it). Unfortunately it's not, and even against armies with practically no magical attacks at all, it's potentially worth it for the miscast protection alone. An item like this simply shouldn't be in the game at all.

Sexiest_hero
20-06-2013, 21:56
Can we just close this thread. It's been done to death and we all know what will be said.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-06-2013, 05:52
It's almost as though it's an item that's there to disuade people from packing their list with Terrorgheists, runed up warmachines and tooled up Skullcrushers. I would have thought that people would be a bit happier that people are now having to concider whether they can just spam the 'stronger choices' of their list.


*Consider*? What is there to consider? It's either or, take it or leave it. You either know your opponent because it's your little brother or you could just flip a coin. Cautious consideration and particular pondering is not going to lead anywhere. It remains rather game-breaking in all respects.



The presence of the banner doesn't screw over those things


Of course it does. Perhaps if you play with open lists or are a very smart person it won't affect you that much. I personally am not much for guessing games. Oh, wrong guess, take unit off. What some might consider a clever ploy I find just hugely annoying. To me, it feels like rolling a die for each of these units at the start and take them off on some results.


Can we just close this thread. It's been done to death and we all know what will be said.

No, "we" cannot close threads simply because you do not like them. I will give you the very same, very obvious practical tip I gave Ewar: You have the option to read something else instead of wasting your and everyone else's time here with the same stupid remarks - we've heard those on p. 1 already, too, you know, and we're just as weary reading them. Same pretty obvious advice goes to Shadeseraph - you're free to ignore any thread you like.

Kahadras
21-06-2013, 11:15
*Consider*? What is there to consider? It's either or, take it or leave it.

Well concider the amount of magical attacks your shoving into your army. If you take a ton of runed up warmachines or a big unit of Skullcrushers or a blender Vampire Lord then you have to have concidered what could happen if you run up against a bannerstar.


I believe that those things together do make it OP. When MR3 costs 45 and has to be taken on a character, the banner is ridiculous on it's face.

MR is badly costed. Yes the banner is really good but I look at it and just see how an average game of Warhammer will go. The first time I declare I'm using the banner (either against a spell or a magical cannonball or to save some models in my unit from miscast explosions) then that's it. My opponant won't target that with any spells/warmachines that I can use my ward save on. Against a Daemon player or somebody who takes a lot of magic attacks I can probably set up a combat but if he knows where the banner is he's going to be doing his best to avoid it (or hit the banner unit with one of his mundane attack units if he's not playing DoC). I can still benefit from the miscast explosion protection (if I have my magic caster in the same unit) but I'm not a big fan of rolling on the miscast table to begin with. For myself the concerns in the table are being sucked into the Warp, losing power dice and losing Wizard levels/spells. Losing a handful of Spearmen/Archers/Seaguard from my Archmage's bunker unit isn't that big a deal.

Kahadras

N1AK
21-06-2013, 12:10
I don't know why I keep getting involved in these debates. Lists at actual tournaments are showing that the banner is basically auto-include for HE and comp packs in the UK at least are starting to write it out or nerf it so 90% of the time it won't matter to me any way.

GrandmasterWang
21-06-2013, 14:26
thanks for answering my questions those posters that I asked.

to don zeko. if the banner was 100 points I doubt the daemon players would hate it that much. Snipe the bsb and banner gone. Greatly reduces its utility in many ways. Of course people would still complain but the threads wouldn't last this long.

Like many have said.... it is a terribly designed item when you look at it as a whole. Truly a Mat Ward item.

I play dwarfs who are rumored to be getting a new book soon. I'd hate them to have an item like this (anti magic is their thing remember ) or on a similar power level. This banner is a power gamers wet dream and I do not like it one bit. Things like this make me worried for the future of 8th which I personally have found wonderful

Yowzo
21-06-2013, 14:30
I don't know why I keep getting involved in these debates. Lists at actual tournaments are showing that the banner is basically auto-include for HE and comp packs in the UK at least are starting to write it out or nerf it so 90% of the time it won't matter to me any way.

I'm attending a local tournament where close combat attacks from core and special choices from the daemon book ignore botwd ward saves.

IcedCrow
21-06-2013, 14:56
thanks for answering my questions those posters that I asked.

to don zeko. if the banner was 100 points I doubt the daemon players would hate it that much. Snipe the bsb and banner gone. Greatly reduces its utility in many ways. Of course people would still complain but the threads wouldn't last this long.

Like many have said.... it is a terribly designed item when you look at it as a whole. Truly a Mat Ward item.

I play dwarfs who are rumored to be getting a new book soon. I'd hate them to have an item like this (anti magic is their thing remember ) or on a similar power level. This banner is a power gamers wet dream and I do not like it one bit. Things like this make me worried for the future of 8th which I personally have found wonderful

If the banner was bsb only I'd have no problems with it (coming as a demon player) because you would have some answers for it. Also if it was bsb only it would not be auto-include for every high elf player as it seems to be now.

Sexiest_hero
21-06-2013, 15:31
*Consider*? What is there to consider? It's either or, take it or leave it. You either know your opponent because it's your little brother or you could just flip a coin. Cautious consideration and particular pondering is not going to lead anywhere. It remains rather game-breaking in all respects.



Of course it does. Perhaps if you play with open lists or are a very smart person it won't affect you that much. I personally am not much for guessing games. Oh, wrong guess, take unit off. What some might consider a clever ploy I find just hugely annoying. To me, it feels like rolling a die for each of these units at the start and take them off on some results.



No, "we" cannot close threads simply because you do not like them. I will give you the very same, very obvious practical tip I gave Ewar: You have the option to read something else instead of wasting your and everyone else's time here with the same stupid remarks - we've heard those on p. 1 already, too, you know, and we're just as weary reading them. Same pretty obvious advice goes to Shadeseraph - you're free to ignore any thread you like.

You misunderstand it's not the thread I don't mind the op posted a question, that people instantly ignored and took to attacking each other. Dragging what could have been an interesting thread down in the same flames as the last three.

Baluc
21-06-2013, 15:36
If the banner was bsb only I'd have no problems with it (coming as a demon player) because you would have some answers for it. Also if it was bsb only it would not be auto-include for every high elf player as it seems to be now.

It would instead be unplayable, against other armies an Daemons still couldn't deal with it. In terms of "driving the narrative" is that a better option. If at comped events you want to exclude it fine, but now your responsible for finding a way for HE to deal with Daemons, because I'm going to be honest HE don't have a unit that can fight Nurgle anything. Even with Banner, Daemons can consistently get more points off HE than the opposite in a competitive environment.

IcedCrow
21-06-2013, 15:39
It would instead be unplayable, against other armies an Daemons still couldn't deal with it. In terms of "driving the narrative" is that a better option. If at comped events you want to exclude it fine, but now your responsible for finding a way for HE to deal with Daemons, because I'm going to be honest HE don't have a unit that can fight Nurgle anything. Even with Banner, Daemons can consistently get more points off HE than the opposite in a competitive environment.

Having seen nurgle demons vs high elves several times now, and nurgle chaos warriors vs high elves in action, I will say that this is very inaccurate. High elves have plenty of ways to deal with nurgle. High elves without the banner can still do very well against demons. Wed night I just watched a unit of white lions led by a prince and bsb emasculate and shred a unit of nurgle chaos warriors. And chaos warriors are a step above any nurgle troops. True, high elf spearmen would have had a harder time, but the high elf elite units are quite powerful and capable of going toe to toe with anything chaos has to offer.

It wouldn't be unplayable. It would be less of a sure thing. Less of a sure thing is not unplayable. I may be misunderstanding you but I interpreted what you just said as "without the banner, high elves can't fight demons and compete against them"... which I must say I am completely not in agreement with at all.

DaemonReign
21-06-2013, 16:02
Things like this make me worried for the future of 8th which I personally have found wonderful

Exactly. They were on to something great at the advent of this Edition. With the last 3 Army Books (Daemons in particular) things have really taken a dive in terms of the general design-quality that one can expect. With such damage already done one can only hope that they sober up for the sake of whatever's left to release in this Edition.. not to mention for the sake of 9th Edition..


If the banner was bsb only I'd have no problems with it (coming as a demon player) because you would have some answers for it. Also if it was bsb only it would not be auto-include for every high elf player as it seems to be now.

It'd move it from breaking the scales to 'only' being busted. Yes.

Baluc
21-06-2013, 16:16
Having seen nurgle demons vs high elves several times now, and nurgle chaos warriors vs high elves in action, I will say that this is very inaccurate. High elves have plenty of ways to deal with nurgle. High elves without the banner can still do very well against demons.

It wouldn't be unplayable. It would be less of a sure thing. Less of a sure thing is not unplayable. I may be misunderstanding you but I interpreted what you just said as "without the banner, high elves can't fight demons and compete against them"... which I must say I am completely not in agreement with at all.

A t3 4+ armour 6+ parry model isn't going to be my bsb, end of story.

As to HE vs nurgle lets math it out.

White Lions Lets say 7*4 against against a common Plague bearer horde with 5+ poison. The comparion includes character because that's the unit, and in terms of points the white lions still require more points to even see the field.

White lions go first:
Pass fear

22 attacks = 11 hits = 9.13 wounds = 6 kills with a 2.58% chance of a 7th wound (PG Kill 4 Plague Bearers, with a 45% of a 5th kill)

Plague bearers fight back

29 attacks = 14.5 hits (9.57 auto wounds)= 12.82 wounds = 10 kills with a 64% chance of a 11th kill (Kill 5 PG with a 32% chance of a 6th kill)

White lions 7 kills, standard, 1 rank, charge = 9 (Pg = 4 kills + 2 ranks + banner = 7)

Plague Bearers = 11 kills, standard, 2 ranks = 13(5 kills + 3 ranks + standard = 8)

White lions Stubborn 9 likely. (PG test on 8)
Lets for arguments sake say we add a cavalry unit to support the charge (10 silver helms) A cheap and effective core support unit.

Silver helms 10 attacks = 3 wounds with a 27% chance of a 4th wound.

Plague bearers get 3 attacks = 1.5 wounds(1 poison) = 1.33 wounds = 0 kills with a 44% chance of 1 wound

HE total is now 9+4=13 (11)
DofC is now 13-ranks = 11(6)

The problem now is the White lions have lost 5 attacks, the Daemons are going to be there next round. On average they lose one model to instability. And this combat only gets worse if you make it against Beast of Nurgle or if they have any kind of support. A Skullcannon into the flank of the Silver Helms ends this game.

Vs WofC is different because I can weight the odds to such a point that I break the unit and have a chance to run them down.

Lets say for arguments sake that the white lions have BoftheWD. They only lose 4 models, and win combat by 9(6). And the unit is losing 2d6+1 (2D6-2) models basically. However they are still in combat, skullcannon goes into silver helms and wins the combat for the daemon player. Because the HE still can't kill any models really.

On top of that, this is all assuming that the White Lions pass their fear test which is in the Daemons players ability to influence. Not to mention that they have other methods of forcing the enemy to only hit on 6's, and you can start to see why this becomes a daunting prospect for the HE general. Who if you play from the brb has gained no VPs, but has risked/lose 230 (or in the case of PG 635) to a flank charging Skullcannon.

This is another example as to how changing something as innocuous as VP conditions can change the game entirely.

IcedCrow
21-06-2013, 16:39
Your example assumes everything in a vaccum, which is the problem with assuming everything in a vaccum. This is why I do not live and die by mathhammer.

Your example demonstrates a perfect scenario for the demons vs a white lion unit where the demons have taken no casualties at all to shooting, magic, etc... and are at full strength when slamming into the high elf line... which would be indicative to me (in a vaccum without any battle report or pregame knowledge of how this happened) of a poor high elf player.

The examples I have witnessed involve the high elf armies holding back and targeting the main threats to them with magic and shooting, and then combine arming what's left (typically the infantry). Typically by the time plague bearers get to the line, they are not dealing with a single unit of white lions. They are dealing with support units such as phoenixes, sky cutters etc... that are trying to pin them in place while the lions or other infantry hit a flank or rear and pop them due to insane CR at the end of combat.

While that is also not guaranteed... the high elves are in no way shape or form totally outclassed and outmatched without that banner. The banner is, however, a giant crutch that makes winning vastly easier.

I have seen the banner in action against demons both as an observer and as the demon player. It is OP. In a smaller unit its not as big a deal because its not locking the entire army up. The demon player just has to run away from the unit... which is poor game design IMO. I'd be saying that if it were wood elves having to run from empire spearmen too. Having to guess which unit has the banner of invulnerability and then hoping you don't guess wrong is going to frustrate people. Frustrating people is not good design. It is an example of a hard counter to an entire army... making winning against the army easier... but again... bad game design. No one would volunteer to play the scenario where the opposing army gets to take any unit they want, put as many characters as they want in it, and then say "it now has a 2+ ward save against anything that you can do".

Not wanting it on a BSB because the BSB is T3 highlights why people would have to choose between taking it... because it makes it a tough choice. As opposed to an auto take. It is currently an auto take pretty much universally save a couple of examples that I have read about. If it is an auto take then it is very much bad design.

Also in every elf match I've seen, the BSB has been present and has done fairly well. Nothing should be absolutely certain. I understand that in competitive games we seek to build armies that only have one hard counter against them and hope that we don't cross paths with that army and that an elf BSB is obviously much worse than being able to take an unkillable standard bearer in a pool of 30+ wounds. That is also...IMO...bad game design, but now I am drifting off target.

Vipoid
21-06-2013, 16:59
With regard to making the BotWD BSB-only, I really don't see how that would make it at all unplayable.

I mean, consider this:

1) Yes, your BSB is T3 with a 4+/6+ save. However, outside of combat (which I'll get to), his unit will be taking hits, rather than him. So, for the most part, his toughness and save won't even matter.

2) I believe the most common way to kill a BSB outside of combat is with a Death spell like Spirit Leech. Ok, so now you're BSB is in trouble right? I mean, he only has a 4+ armour save. And, you know, a 2+ ward save vs. spells. So, against any attempts to snipe him, he'll have a 2+ ward save that your opponent can't do anything about. And, if he wants to use Spirit Leech, he'll most likely be against Ld10, so no advantage there. Caress and Fate of Bjuna are a little better, but even both of those together will only average a single wound (and that's assuming neither are dispelled). So, if your opponent goes this route, he's basically wasting 2 magic phases trying to kill your BSB. Not really seeing the squishiness here.

3) Ok, onto combat - where your BSB's toughness and armour finally comes into play. Sort of. For a start, your opponent will generally be limited in how many models he can actually attack you with. A horde will get a maximum of 9 models attacking him, although if he's on the edge of a unit it's more likely to be 6 or 3. In addition, ok, he's T3 with 4+ armour... but he's still got a 2+ ward against your opponent's attacks. Depending on what he's fighting, it could easily be a few rounds of combat before he succumbs. So, how many models does he need to save in order to be worth his points? And, if your opponent can't get through his save, then he's trapped in combat and can barely hurt your unit.

4) "Aha!" I hear you say (or it could just be one of the voices in my head, who knows.) "But what about mundane attacks?" That's true, T3 and a 4+/6+ save starts to look a bit more iffy. Assuming, of course, that it has no other bonuses (e.g. regen/toughness from Lore of Life, penalties to your opponent's strength from Lore of Shadow or a Frost Phoenix etc.). Although, even then, his death is hardly guaranteed - a lot of units aren't strong enough to reliably take him down in one round - even in horde formation. And, thanks to ASF on elves, there's a good chance that they'll be able to shred any small, suicidal chaff unit that tries to run in and kill him in combat. But, if he does die to a horde of mundane attacks, is it even that great a loss? The BSB might be a pain, but his banner couldn't have been doing you much good in that situation.

5) What about defending your BSB/Banner tactically? You could have unit 5-6 wide, and fill the front gaps with other characters - thereby allowing your BSB to safely sit in the second rank. If your opponent is coming towards you with a unit of non-magical attacks, why not have the BSB jump ship? His banner won't make any difference to the combat, so have him jump into a different unit, before your opponent can charge and pin him in place. And, that's not even counting the possibility of protecting/healing him with spells.

Yes, having the banner on a BSB makes it more vulnerable than if it's in a unit (which is basically the point). However, I just don't think the difference is enough to make the banner unplayable. I mean, BSB-banners are always vulnerable, but the BotWD actually helps mitigate this by giving your BSB a 2+ ward against magic attacks. He couldn't get anything like that even if he was allowed magic wargear.

In addition, I really don't think killing him is as simple as people suggest. If they can kill him and his unit with mundane attacks, then the banner was of no concern anyway. If their best chance against that unit is a unit with magic attacks, then they're still left with a difficult decision. Yes, they could charge in and allocate attacks against the BSB, but what if he makes his save? Now their strongest attacks are trapped against an enemy with a 2+ ward save against them - meaning there's a good chance they'll lose combat or leave themselves open to flanking.

Soundwave
21-06-2013, 18:06
Mmm,another much highly contested and may i add "well thought out"debate by highly intelligent people here on warseer! A couple of massive factors or well the three primary points are;
1:The original!!! I loathed this banner and its reancarnation is by far worse!!!Not only can you standardise it!(haha a pun) but it can be combined!!!With a bsb...now this is unfair!
2:It can be glued upon all the elite high elven infantry...unless broken this unit WILL keep skiping round to pick it up time and time again.
3:Well the cost!!!It is way out of wack! We can all understand that yes the high elves are masters of forgeing beautifull arcane products and have always had the cream but this is just stupid!(bending fluffy points to far!To the point of fury!)!
Also whilst we are at it @T-10 where are you here to respond?

Don Zeko
21-06-2013, 18:44
Mmm,another much highly contested and may i add "well thought out"debate by highly intelligent people here on warseer! A couple of massive factors or well the three primary points are;
1:The original!!! I loathed this banner and its reancarnation is by far worse!!!Not only can you standardise it!(haha a pun) but it can be combined!!!With a bsb...now this is unfair!
2:It can be glued upon all the elite high elven infantry...unless broken this unit WILL keep skiping round to pick it up time and time again.
3:Well the cost!!!It is way out of wack! We can all understand that yes the high elves are masters of forgeing beautifull arcane products and have always had the cream but this is just stupid!(bending fluffy points to far!To the point of fury!)!
Also whilst we are at it @T-10 where are you here to respond?

Don't drink and post, kids.

Makaber
21-06-2013, 19:23
So far a single post in this thread is along the lines of "I've seen this in action!", an that one was kinda thin on the details. Surely the banner does not make the unit immune to warmachines? Chariots? Charging Knights and characters that invest in non-weapon items?

I faced it two or three times in a five game doubles tournament, so it's certainly popular. I say "probably", because out of those three games, it only really had an impact in one of them. The other times the units with it didn't see action in any significant way (being run down after fleeing a charge, and ending up in a corner of the battle and not seeing action, respectively). When I had to face it, though, it was a bit of a pain in the ass: A unit of Swordmasters got Earthblood cast on it, which I'd normally counter with Flaming Sword, but couldn't because that would turn a 5+ Regen into a 2+ Ward due to the banner. Charging them with Witch Elves, that regeneration probably swung the battle in his favor, since (in my book) Witch Elves should happily chomp up a comparable unit of Swordmasters any day of the week.

Is it good? Definitely. Is it worth spending all this time being concerned about? I don't think so. Playing against it, it's extremely predictable and you can tell where it is right away (and since everybody takes it, you can be sure it's in there somewhere), so your magic is going elsewhere, freeing up your mundane shooting for the Banner unit. In the above game (with Swordmasters vs. Witch Elves) I lost, but probably more because I didn't make trimming down the Swordmasters with my shooting beforehand a higher priority.

Its sheer existence still annoys me, though, especially because it's so cheap. You're giving up very little by taking it, so why not?

yeknoMehT
21-06-2013, 19:29
A t3 4+ armour 6+ parry model isn't going to be my bsb, end of story.

As to HE vs nurgle lets math it out.

White Lions Lets say 7*4 against against a common Plague bearer horde with 5+ poison. The comparion includes character because that's the unit, and in terms of points the white lions still require more points to even see the field.
.

I might suggest you go away and think about how many points are in a 'horde of plague bearers + herald/locus'. Also, remember PBs are on 25mm bases, to the HE 20mm bases, so the 7-wide WL unit is only engaging 7 PBs (so the maximum attacks they can get, even with hero+champ, is 24)
This means, by my calcs, that to get even the 24 attack maximum back, the PB unit needs to be 33 strong, which equates to around 600 points. The unit of WL comes in below 400.

Also, your maths is incorrect (on top of the usual inaccuracies associated with the whole Math-hammer method).

Sexiest_hero
21-06-2013, 20:58
I faced it and won a while back, with daemons. It's a mess of an item but not 7th edition broken.

scoutbike
21-06-2013, 22:03
I'm probably going to echo what iced crow has said here (and I think has put forward well), but hopefully I will be a little more concise.

It is irrelevant to post in this thread pointing out theoretical counters and builds, or otherwise math-hammering into oblivion. None of that is the issue at heart.

The way to identify if something is unbalanced or not - and this applies to any multi-player game in any format - is whether it forces a player into an adapt or die situation.
This is not the same as saying someone shouldnt adapt by choice, in order to gain an advantage.

If there is any situation where a player in any game has to build a certain way just to exist in the game (before that player even thinks about how they may gain an advantage), then you have an issue.

So, I am not in the camp of saying that Banner of the World Dragon is overpowered against everything. I am in the camp of saying it is overpowered against Daemons. And the solution to that is not to say "well dont play Daemons against High Elves then". That is not a solution.

So, the item itself is not the problem. The problem is that there is no thought given to the impact it has regarding an opponent.
There are two ways this item could have been balanced, but keeping its abilities.

1) There would be a possible counter-build in Daemons. But there isnt
2) Give a potential downside to taking the item. Perhaps it is extraordinarily expensive, perhaps it can only be fielded in a particular way if you are prepared to sacrifice other elements of your list. Perhaps there is a side-effect to the item. Unfortunately, it has none of these. It is cheap, has no downside, can be flexibly fielded, and is a solid default choice for any army with its wide-reaching utility.

Now, to deal with many posters here who may wish to say "but you can build the daemon list like this, and deploy it like this, and then avoid that, and then go for this" etc etc. That is not a solution. All you are doing is saying that if you can do a, b, c, x, y and z, then you can (potentially) win.
All you are doing is levelling the playing field, and that's where you have the imbalance. To say that one army must build a certain way so that it could beat the other army is not a fair game.
The High Elf player on the other hand takes no such choices. There is no 'gimped' build if you like. They do not make several concessions in order to field something very powerful. They choose to field something that is useful and has it's up sides and down sides for almost all armies, but is a near guaranteed victory against one particular army.

An example of a powerful balanced build in action would be if you decided you were going to go full out Light magic, because you wanted to be really good against undead and daemons. You then have an inherent downside in that Light magic isnt so great as a default against every other army, and that there are several potentially 'better' choices. So you have made a choice there with a build, that has its good points, and its bad points.

Hmm, dont think I was more concise :(

Lord Inquisitor
21-06-2013, 22:08
I think that's a valid benchmark for things that are unbalanced. If you think about single units that have influenced how your average competitive list is or was built - T10 steam tanks, pendant lords, Ld bomb, chosenstar, mournfang, abombs, K'daai destroyers. Anything that makes you say "I need to take a counter to THAT because if I run into it I'll be hosed"

IcedCrow
21-06-2013, 22:19
What I put forward in our campaign groups is simply this: the campaign is built for strong lists but not over powered lists. The definition is hard to define, but I basically said this very morning on our facebook group that if your army list requires a hard counter to it to be effective, and if that hard counter is not presented then you will likely win, that the army is probably not one for the campaign because it is a bit too hard for what we are after. Essentially what you guys just said. I think we are in agreement.

Its an extreme version of paper/rock/scissors... and to me it sucks the very soul out of the game.

scoutbike
21-06-2013, 22:19
I think that's a valid benchmark for things that are unbalanced. If you think about single units that have influenced how your average competitive list is or was built - T10 steam tanks, pendant lords, Ld bomb, chosenstar, mournfang, abombs, K'daai destroyers. Anything that makes you say "I need to take a counter to THAT because if I run into it I'll be hosed"

Although even those aren't as bad. Yes, they are each very very powerful, but none of them are necessarily an "i win" button. They do have their counters.

Conversely there is no daemon counter to Banner of the World Dragon, there is simply a means by which a daemon player could build a list that wont necessarily be an automatic loss, which is far removed from being able to think about a list that might win.

scoutbike
21-06-2013, 22:25
What I put forward in our campaign groups is simply this: the campaign is built for strong lists but not over powered lists. The definition is hard to define, but I basically said this very morning on our facebook group that if your army list requires a hard counter to it to be effective, and if that hard counter is not presented then you will likely win, that the army is probably not one for the campaign because it is a bit too hard for what we are after. Essentially what you guys just said. I think we are in agreement.

Its an extreme version of paper/rock/scissors... and to me it sucks the very soul out of the game.

Yeah, it's often difficult to define what is and isnt acceptable. Everyone knows it in their head (even if it's someone who is using something broken, they still know it is, deep down), but to get everyone to agree on it openly is something else.

I often find the best rule in this situation (and again this works across all games, not just Warhammer) is the:

"Dont be a dick"

rule. Everyone knows what it means.
It's the same thing that stops me showing up to my club with >100 crossbowmen, a peg lord, dagger sorceress, dual hydras and 40 corsairs with >6 dice mindrazor.

Vipoid
21-06-2013, 22:54
Everyone knows it in their head (even if it's someone who is using something broken, they still know it is, deep down), but to get everyone to agree on it openly is something else.

I disagree.

The problem is, people consider units broken for different reasons. For a start, the armies you play (especially if you only play 1 or 2) can create innate bias. There's a tendency for some people to overlook broken units in their own army. In addition, peoples' armies give them different perspectives on what units/items in their opponents' army are unbalanced. For example, a VC player may well consider the Hellheart broken - it can take out their general with no real counter on their part, and can wipe out swathes of models around their characters. On the other hand, a Dwarf or Khorne player would be far less likely to see any issue with it. Likewise, the armies you face can warp your opinion on an item or unit. Ogre players who frequently face VCs (or other armies that use multiple wizards) will likely rate the aforementioned Hellheart much higher than Ogre players who face Dwarves or armies with 1 (or no) wizards.

My point is, people don't always know "deep down" that they're using a broken item. Their own army along with the armies they regularly face will strongly affect what they consider broken. In addition, people may have very different opinions in general on when a unit becomes 'broken'. Even the term is ambiguous - some may consider a unit broken only when it actually breaks the game, whilst others may use the term on any unit they perceive to be undercosted/overpowered.


I often find the best rule in this situation (and again this works across all games, not just Warhammer) is the:

"Dont be a dick"

rule. Everyone knows what it means.

Indeed - it means nothing.

It is a completely useless term that is entirely subjective and utterly meaningless.

theunwantedbeing
21-06-2013, 23:56
First off, I am in no way saying that the banner is the least bit reasonable against Daemons.
It isn't, no army should have a 2+ ward save for a unit.


Conversely there is no daemon counter to Banner of the World Dragon, there is simply a means by which a daemon player could build a list that wont necessarily be an automatic loss, which is far removed from being able to think about a list that might win.

No hard counter to the banner.

There are ways to get around the problem the banner creates.

scoutbike
22-06-2013, 00:01
I disagree.

The problem is, people consider units broken for different reasons. For a start, the armies you play (especially if you only play 1 or 2) can create innate bias. There's a tendency for some people to overlook broken units in their own army. In addition, peoples' armies give them different perspectives on what units/items in their opponents' army are unbalanced. For example, a VC player may well consider the Hellheart broken - it can take out their general with no real counter on their part, and can wipe out swathes of models around their characters. On the other hand, a Dwarf or Khorne player would be far less likely to see any issue with it. Likewise, the armies you face can warp your opinion on an item or unit. Ogre players who frequently face VCs (or other armies that use multiple wizards) will likely rate the aforementioned Hellheart much higher than Ogre players who face Dwarves or armies with 1 (or no) wizards.

My point is, people don't always know "deep down" that they're using a broken item. Their own army along with the armies they regularly face will strongly affect what they consider broken. In addition, people may have very different opinions in general on when a unit becomes 'broken'. Even the term is ambiguous - some may consider a unit broken only when it actually breaks the game, whilst others may use the term on any unit they perceive to be undercosted/overpowered.



Indeed - it means nothing.

It is a completely useless term that is entirely subjective and utterly meaningless.


Vipoid, I think you greatly under-estimate and may even completely ignore the fact that many people possess the abilities of reason, and self reflection. You shouldnt assume that everyone is automatically biased and will obviously only be favourable of things that benefit their playstyle of choice, and against things that hinder it. That's a very simplistic view, and slightly immature. I'd really only expect kids and a handful of maladjusted adults to fall foul of what you describe.

Really, you're passing judgement before you've even understood anyone else's viewpoint, if you're accusing someone of the things you describe. You arent setting off from a point of just listening/reading their point and then making a judgement based on its individual merit; you're starting having already pre-judged them to be biased towards another personal agenda and are therefore looking for a hidden meaning or motive behind everything they put forward on the basis that it surely must contain some level of malice or misdirection in there somewhere.

I've looked at the banner, I've gone back and forth in my own mind about the arguments for and against it, and i think that on balance, it was poorly thought out in terms of daemons.
GW are not immune from making bad decisions. They frequently publish errata or even rules changes where these have occurred.

As for the "dont be a dick" rule, it's in wide use and is there to simplify what otherwise gets easily overcomplicated. I've seen it referenced already in several tournament comps, and indeed GW used it at Throne of Skulls, although I recall they used another word instead :)

scoutbike
22-06-2013, 00:04
There are ways to get around the problem the banner creates.

Yeah, but unfortunately those ways involve structuring your army just to get to a point where you are then able to start the game on a slightly more level playing field.

Don Zeko
22-06-2013, 00:18
As for the "dont be a dick" rule, it's in wide use and is there to simplify what otherwise gets easily overcomplicated. I've seen it referenced already in several tournament comps, and indeed GW used it at Throne of Skulls, although I recall they used another word instead :)

The trouble here is that what "don't be a dick" really means is "play within the bounds of reasonable behavior as defined by the gamers that I regularly come in contact with." That definition usually works well enough, but the specifics of it are quite malleable, and therefore not a very good way to guide your behavior if you don't already have a sense of what is expected and permitted by the particular gaming subculture in which you're operating. In other words, it's like saying "do the right thing" or "be a good sport." There might some informational content in the phrase, but it leaves all of the actual difficult questions unanswered.

IcedCrow
22-06-2013, 01:16
Some people see min maxing and taking advantage of the rules as fine.

Dont be a dick is subjective to each person. Expected behavior needs to explicitly laid out for an event. Hoping that everyone will abide by dont be a dick in my experience fails.

Tau_player001
22-06-2013, 02:48
As for the "dont be a dick" rule, it's in wide use and is there to simplify what otherwise gets easily overcomplicated. I've seen it referenced already in several tournament comps, and indeed GW used it at Throne of Skulls, although I recall they used another word instead :)

I would be a dick if i didn't bring the banner, since we mostly play for practice for tournaments (since that's how we have fun) and they know they will face it anyways.

See where the flaw on your logic is ?

Lord Solar Plexus
22-06-2013, 07:35
Mmm,another much highly contested and may i add "well thought out"debate by highly intelligent people here on warseer!

And what are you doing here? :eek: :wtf:

DaemonReign
22-06-2013, 09:26
So, I am not in the camp of saying that Banner of the World Dragon is overpowered against everything.

But it most certainly is.
I mean Christ people forget about Daemons. Against that army this banner is an unacceptable crutch almost regardless of what you do with it. This invalidates its design from the first get-go, but in the aftermath (if we look beyond Daemons) the Picture isn't pretty at all.
The miscast-protection alone is Worth more than the cost of the banner. Everything else you *might* be getting against any other opponant is basically a 'free' advantage.
- Characters with Magic Weapons? Ranged attacks endowed with Magical Attacks? Essentially all but one spell in the game (unless it's HE vs HE in which case of course it's 'fair game' but that's moot as hell).
So that flag is 50pts. Merely upping that cost by 1pt would make a World of difference. Being forced to stick that flag on a T3 squishy 2-wound BSB is the 'bare minimum' drawback High Elf players should have to concider with this flag. It would still be far removed from being properly costed though. Make it 100pts and we're starting to get, at least, into the viscinity of 'fair' against all armies except Daemons - and for Daemons??.. well lol.. it becomes unserious cuz you'd have to pretty much double (or more!) the cost once more in order to make it a relevant 'choice'.

This assumes of course you're not looking to use tBotWD in a friendly (i.e. 'sub-par') fashion. It's assuming you do stick the flag into a largish horde of Elven Specials, with your Level 4 and a few other characters in there as well. I.e. the deathstarring that parts of the Community is already weary of.
Now.. if you stick the flag on some chaff-unit of Knights, or if you start your 12-dice magic phase by six-dicing your first spell, or if you play blindfolded or whatever.. Then, you know, that's on you..
The banner is still busted. No playtesting required. At all.

GrandmasterWang
22-06-2013, 10:22
Just to say that the post by Baluc was some of the more wacky math hammering I have seen in my time here.

I'd be curious to see a proper math hammer between a lion horde and a plague horde with 5+ poison.

Isn't the point of math hammer to put up 2 equally costed units against each other in a vacuum?

If one side has a huge points advantage (as Baluc post did) then what is the point? If the hammer is to show the lower points unit trouncing the higher points unit I can understand but not the other way. (yep the math shows that a varghulf will eat a unit of 10 goblins. vampire counts are op)

Excluding the banner I don't think Nurgle daemons give high elves fits at all. I think the magic and movement advantage to the elves is quite significant. My regular high elf opponent certainly doesn't hold a severe fear of my plague horde... more like a wary caution.

I also don't think it is always obvious where the banner is in a balanced list. In the game example i gave before I was wrong footed by the banner (call me a noob if you like lol). 2 units of Dragon princes and a unit of white lions. Opponent tricked me with the banner on the small prince unit (well played to him). The banner doesn't need to be in a deathstar to be very effective.

Scammel
22-06-2013, 10:29
I actually don't think the banner is particularly overpowered outside of the Daemon matchup. I know I've commented on the synergy it has with Alarielle and it is certainly very good, but I don't think we should begrudge a book having good things in it. It's annoying to play against - as it should be, you don't buy 50pt magic items to give your opponent a good time. I know there's a comparison to be made with the 45pt MR3 from the BRB, but I'm not sure it's a relevant one considering no-one takes it.

But Daemons do exist and thus it's ridiculous.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2013, 10:44
Isn't the point of math hammer to put up 2 equally costed units against each other in a vacuum?

Nope.
Mathhammer is there to determine what can beat what, without the need for endless playtesting.

Vipoid
22-06-2013, 11:41
Vipoid, I think you greatly under-estimate and may even completely ignore the fact that many people possess the abilities of reason, and self reflection.

I don't believe I have.


You shouldnt assume that everyone is automatically biased and will obviously only be favourable of things that benefit their playstyle of choice, and against things that hinder it. That's a very simplistic view, and slightly immature.

No, it's a very logical view, and one I do not believe is at all immature.

If you think I'm wrong, have a look at some of the threads (Fantasy or 40k) where someone has asked if a particular army is overpowered. People who play that army will often defend it's supposedly overpowered units/equipment to the death, whilst those who constantly face such stuff will call it out as overpowered/undercosted. However, also pay attention for those who say that their army has no trouble against it - they're usually far less concerned by the army being overpowered. After all, why should they be? It's hard to see things as overpowered when you beat them almost every game.

Note that this is not the same as intentional bias. It's not (always ;)) about people wanting a broken army to stay broken or somesuch. It's the fact that peoples' environments and playgroups causes them to see units and items in different lights. If you favour cavalry, monsters and heavy-infantry then you may well consider the Terrorgheist badly broken. On the other hand, if your army is one with a lot of infantry and bolt throwers or cannons, then the terrorgheist probably looks like overpriced target-practice.

I don't see how you can call this in any way simplistic or immature.

If anything, saying that everyone knows exactly which of their units are broken regardless of their group, the armies they face and the builds that they use (or have used against them) is laughably simplistic and, frankly, wrong.


Really, you're passing judgement before you've even understood anyone else's viewpoint, if you're accusing someone of the things you describe.

Accusing? That's a very strong word, and not one which relates to what I was saying.

If anything, you're the one doeing the accusing - because you're accusing people of knowing exaclty which items/units in their army are broken, and then being a dick by using them anyway.

Also, what viewpoint have I failed to understand?


You arent setting off from a point of just listening/reading their point and then making a judgement based on its individual merit; you're starting having already pre-judged them to be biased towards another personal agenda and are therefore looking for a hidden meaning or motive behind everything they put forward on the basis that it surely must contain some level of malice or misdirection in there somewhere.

I can only assume that you're projecting here; because I never said or even hinted at anything of the sort. :wtf:

My thoughts are based partially on the posts and debates in this thread, but that doesn't mean I immediately look at every post and mentally scream 'BIAS!!!', or assume that every poster is a malicious bastard out to further himself. It means if you read a lot of the threads - especially ones about an army/unit/item being broken, and ones about how to "fix" a army/unit/item, you'll see a pattern emerge that I described above.

Also, once again, I did not say intentional bias. Someone does not have to be pushing an insidious objective to be biased - nor do they even have to know that they're biased. In addition, you seem to think that bias of any kind somehow makes you a bad person. Natural bias doesn't make you bad - it makes you human. Like it or not, people are influenced considerably by their environment in a multitude of ways. Why should warhammer by any different? Are you really saying that the army(s) you play, the armies you play against, the builds you favour, the builds your opponent's favour, where you play, and whether you play mainly friendly or competitive/tournament games has no effect whatsoever on your views? To me, *that* sounds like a far more simplistic - even naive - view.

Furthermore, by your logic, how can these debates even exist? If everyone already innately knows which items are biased (because apparently humans have a Hive-Mind), shouldn't these debates read:

"I believe XXXXX is broken."
"I agree."
"I concur."
"As do I."
"You are correct."

There would be no need for anyone to explain to anyone else why an item is broken because, according to you, we'd already know. Or, are you saying that everyone who defends an item is just trolling? :eyebrows:

In any case, if you disagree with my theory so strongly, how about actually presenting your own evidence instead of resorting to argumentum ad hominem and Poisoning the Well.



As for the "dont be a dick" rule, it's in wide use and is there to simplify what otherwise gets easily overcomplicated.

But surely complication is precisely the issue? Where exactly do you draw the line in terms of being a dick?

It's easy to look at the extremes and say that a person is/isn't being a dick for fielding a particular army, but what about the more intermediate lists?

For example, let's take the list you presented in your previous post:



It's the same thing that stops me showing up to my club with >100 crossbowmen, a peg lord, dagger sorceress, dual hydras and 40 corsairs with >6 dice mindrazor.

Let's assume that it's agreed that this list equates to 'being a dick'.

What exactly do you have to remove/change in this list before you stop being a dick?

The Low King
22-06-2013, 13:36
really long post

You spent far too much time writing that :p

But it is very intelligently written and I completely agree.

yeknoMehT
22-06-2013, 16:11
Just to say that the post by Baluc was some of the more wacky math hammering I have seen in my time here.

I'd be curious to see a proper math hammer between a lion horde and a plague horde with 5+ poison.

Isn't the point of math hammer to put up 2 equally costed units against each other in a vacuum?

If one side has a huge points advantage (as Baluc post did) then what is the point? If the hammer is to show the lower points unit trouncing the higher points unit I can understand but not the other way. (yep the math shows that a varghulf will eat a unit of 10 goblins. vampire counts are op)

Excluding the banner I don't think Nurgle daemons give high elves fits at all. I think the magic and movement advantage to the elves is quite significant. My regular high elf opponent certainly doesn't hold a severe fear of my plague horde... more like a wary caution.

I also don't think it is always obvious where the banner is in a balanced list. In the game example i gave before I was wrong footed by the banner (call me a noob if you like lol). 2 units of Dragon princes and a unit of white lions. Opponent tricked me with the banner on the small prince unit (well played to him). The banner doesn't need to be in a deathstar to be very effective.

Well, lets see - how about a 30 strong unit of PB + herald + 5+ poison locus, which comes in at 550pts, is equivalent points to a unit of 40 WLs.

If we assume that they are both in horde formation, maximising both lots of attacks, then the WL will get 41A, hitting on 4s (presuming they pass fear)
The expected number of hits is 20.5, which leads to 17.1 wounds, of which 11.4 will be unsaved (assuming none directed at herald - which is a bit optimistic for the plaguebearers).

This leaves 20 PBs + herald to attack back with 24A, hitting on 4s (5+ poison), wounding on 3s (if not poison), saving on 6s - which gives 12 hits (8 of which are poisoned), 2.7+8 wounds, 8.9 dead elves.

That's if the WLs ignore the herald. If they can kill the herald (leaving a couple of extra PBs alive), the number of poisoned hits drops to 4, giving only 7.7 dead elves.

So even on averages, the WLs come out pretty well on the first turn, even if they get charged - still have 2 ranks, banner + 11 kills, to the PBs 9 + 1 rank, banner, charge - who lose by two (and possibly lose a handful more dudes).

If they manage to pass their test, the second round of combat would be similar: 33A from the elves leading to 9.2 dead PBs, leaving just 11 PBs + herald to strike, with their 15A causing 5.6 unsaved wounds. Now it's approx 2 ranks, banner, 9 wounds vs no ranks, banner, 6 wounds - leaving the PBs testing at Ld3 (or 4 if a lord is hanging close by). It's safe to say there won't be any left after the next round.

So, on average, the WLs will demolish the PBs (of equal cost) entirely in 3 rounds of combat, having taken less than half their starting strength off, even if they get charged. Being stubborn, they are also highly resilient to statistical variations resulting in a lost round of combat.

Far from the picture painted by Baluc...

Edit: I ignored the S5 on the herald, but it would make very little difference to the numbers - maybe one extra dead elf across the three rounds...

NemoSD
22-06-2013, 16:22
I'm going to say, I think the main reason a lot of High Elf players are jumping up to defend this, is for two books now, we get to watch everyone else have their OP unit/item without the massive cry that you should never play them. We have watched Teclis, now our banner, be comped, while everyone elses broken crap gets at most whined about.

Talk about about bias. The banner is a really really really good item. It is, in my opinion, an item that I use if I happen to have 50 extra points. It does not work well with MSU, which I favor. I don't deathstar because it is boring. Even though I do not run the banner often, I do resent being told "No you can never touch it, or forever more you will be the King Dick of DOuchelandia." It just makes me want to run it more.

Scammel
22-06-2013, 16:52
We have watched Teclis, now our banner, be comped, while everyone elses broken crap gets at most whined about.

Just... wrong. Plenty of other items have been comped. Pendant, Hellheart, Doom Rocket, Cupped Hands, Crown of Command, the list goes on. Talk about bias.

Vipoid
22-06-2013, 16:55
I'm going to say, I think the main reason a lot of High Elf players are jumping up to defend this, is for two books now, we get to watch everyone else have their OP unit/item without the massive cry that you should never play them. We have watched Teclis, now our banner, be comped, while everyone elses broken crap gets at most whined about.

I'm afraid I don't understand this. Are you saying that Teclis and the High Elf banner are the only things that are ever comped? No other army has any comp restrictions at all?


You spent far too much time writing that :p

I'm aware...

I have a Life on order, but it's yet to be delivered. ;)


But it is very intelligently written and I completely agree.

Thank you. :)

IcedCrow
22-06-2013, 16:56
I think its more that players in general like when they have broken things in general period.

DaemonReign
22-06-2013, 23:40
We have watched Teclis, now our banner, be comped, while everyone elses broken crap gets at most whined about.

If only this was true. Teclis in the previous book and now this banner are after all the two most busted individual entries in an Army Book that we've seen for about fifteen years.


It does not work well with MSU, which I favor. I don't deathstar because it is boring.

The fact that you refuse to use this item to its true strength doesn't diminish the fact that the strength is there.
Just like someone could six-dice a spell with 12 Dice in his pool and then complain that tBotWD doesn't protect against Miscast-ramifications as well as the interwebs says it does.

GrandmasterWang
23-06-2013, 06:56
If only this was true. Teclis in the previous book and now this banner are after all the two most busted individual entries in an Army Book that we've seen for about fifteen years.



The fact that you refuse to use this item to its true strength doesn't diminish the fact that the strength is there.
Just like someone could six-dice a spell with 12 Dice in his pool and then complain that tBotWD doesn't protect against Miscast-ramifications as well as the interwebs says it does.

I agree with you on the banner but teclis can't touch the old masque in terms of brokenness. Teclis at least is a complete pleb in combat and cost enough points to make you alter army composition. Old masque (and skulltaker to a lesser extent) were so broken and cheap you could pretty much throw them into any army. 8th did weaken the taker but in 7th.... shudder.

I can't agree with your post at all Nemo. People are complaining about the banner for a reason, just like they complained about the Pendant of Khaeleth while the dark elf cheese mongers defended it ("it's an ok item at best, don't know if I can spare the points and it doesnt work on everything anyway")

;)

DaemonReign
23-06-2013, 15:58
I agree with you on the banner but teclis can't touch the old masque in terms of brokenness.

Fine. The Masque should never have existed either that's certainly true.

EDIT
Never really understood what the big deal with Skulltaker was seeing as opponants could Always see him coming a mile away (why run your character into him? why accept the challange?) but that's just an armchair assessment as my Group stopped playing with SC's in 4th Edition.
But the Masque was problematic to say the least (more obviously so, compared to Skulltaker imo), Kairos was near-Teclis level of OP with the only 'excuse' of not being welcome inside units, Master of Sorcery should have been twice as expensive, Siren Song became totally busted with random charge-distances, where-as conversely the Power Dice generation of Horrors in 7th was probably the biggest insult of that entire book when it came out.
So there are a lot of culprits, and a surpricing share of these have Matt Ward's signature written on them.
I can't really say that any single entry has stood out the way that tBotWD does though, that's not equated to saying High Elves as an army are necessarily broken (not at all).
I suppose it would have to be the Masque with her grossely low cost... But; she was all part of the dreaded ld-bomb shennanigans that Daemons could run in 7th - including a no-brain (but none-the-less carefull) set-up of the Banner of Despair etcetera.
The World Dragon flag is just 50pts no questions asked, no further conciderations to be made - shut down Daemons, give half the other factions serious problems, and get a more-than-valuable protection for your Level 4 against the rest of them..
And it must be said once more than merely upping the cost by 1pt (thus making it BSB-only) would have made it hardly noticeable. We'd still grinn about it, but we wouldn't shake our heads in shame..

Baluc
23-06-2013, 18:00
Just to say that the post by Baluc was some of the more wacky math hammering I have seen in my time here.

I'd be curious to see a proper math hammer between a lion horde and a plague horde with 5+ poison.

Isn't the point of math hammer to put up 2 equally costed units against each other in a vacuum?

If one side has a huge points advantage (as Baluc post did) then what is the point? If the hammer is to show the lower points unit trouncing the higher points unit I can understand but not the other way. (yep the math shows that a varghulf will eat a unit of 10 goblins. vampire counts are op)

Excluding the banner I don't think Nurgle daemons give high elves fits at all. I think the magic and movement advantage to the elves is quite significant. My regular high elf opponent certainly doesn't hold a severe fear of my plague horde... more like a wary caution.

I also don't think it is always obvious where the banner is in a balanced list. In the game example i gave before I was wrong footed by the banner (call me a noob if you like lol). 2 units of Dragon princes and a unit of white lions. Opponent tricked me with the banner on the small prince unit (well played to him). The banner doesn't need to be in a deathstar to be very effective.

That's because most people have no idea how to use stats. When was the last time you and your friends told each other you were allowed to use equally costed units? Not to mention that the White Lion unit needs core before it can even see the field, creating a secondary source of victory points.

The point of the exercise was to show that even in idea situations where the HE with BotWD unit fought alone as to be the only unit to be attacked, the difference still wasn't game deciding as some people seem to think. And when use in conjunction with a support unit could quite easily lose the fight as the support unit is not protected and provides a source of combat resolution for the Daemon player to harvest.

You can however be forgiven for seeing the tree and missing the forest.

Lord Inquisitor
23-06-2013, 18:15
I typically saw the old versions of Teclis, Masque and Kairos banned from even those tournaments with otherwise no restrictions.

Daenerys Targaryen
23-06-2013, 23:20
I think its more that players in general like when they have broken things in general period.
+1 this. People claim to want balance, but what they really want most of all is to be on the winning side of things. Crutches are fun when they're yours and typically only seen as broken when they're not.

Maoriboy007
24-06-2013, 00:35
But it most certainly is.
I mean Christ people forget about Daemons. Against that army this banner is an unacceptable crutch almost regardless of what you do with it. This invalidates its design from the first get-go, but in the aftermath (if we look beyond Daemons) the Picture isn't pretty at all.
The miscast-protection alone is Worth more than the cost of the banner. Everything else you *might* be getting against any other opponant is basically a 'free' advantage.
- Characters with Magic Weapons? Ranged attacks endowed with Magical Attacks? Essentially all but one spell in the game (unless it's HE vs HE in which case of course it's 'fair game' but that's moot as hell).
So that flag is 50pts. Merely upping that cost by 1pt would make a World of difference. Being forced to stick that flag on a T3 squishy 2-wound BSB is the 'bare minimum' drawback High Elf players should have to concider with this flag. It would still be far removed from being properly costed though. Make it 100pts and we're starting to get, at least, into the viscinity of 'fair' against all armies except Daemons - and for Daemons??.. well lol.. it becomes unserious cuz you'd have to pretty much double (or more!) the cost once more in order to make it a relevant 'choice'.

This assumes of course you're not looking to use tBotWD in a friendly (i.e. 'sub-par') fashion. It's assuming you do stick the flag into a largish horde of Elven Specials, with your Level 4 and a few other characters in there as well. I.e. the deathstarring that parts of the Community is already weary of.
Now.. if you stick the flag on some chaff-unit of Knights, or if you start your 12-dice magic phase by six-dicing your first spell, or if you play blindfolded or whatever.. Then, you know, that's on you..
The banner is still busted. No playtesting required. At all.As much as I tend to disagree with Demonreign;) , the "oh well its only OP against Demons" argument is a fallicy, its a pretty powerful/underpriced item on what is already a good army without it.

The Low King
24-06-2013, 01:41
That's because most people have no idea how to use stats......etc.

I have to agree with GrandmasterWang, your mathhammer is a bit dodgy.

1) Why is the White lion unit so significantly smaller/cheaper? All that is telling you is that a unit can kill something half its price...the white lions are special, but the core choices are hardly weak. If you want to say that the comparison includes the core the HE player has to buy, then factor in two turns of archer bombardment on the unit or something.

2) Don't mix average dice rolls with probabilities. Saying they do an average of 6 kills with a 2.58% chance of an extra wound does not make sense, you either calculate averages (in wich case you say 6.0258 wounds) or you use binomial probabilities (in which case you say there is a ~60% chance of doing 6 or more wounds).

3) Plaguebearers are on 25mm bases rather than the 20mm you seem to be using in your calculations, that means only 7 models in contact with the WL unit and therefore only 23 attacks (20+ 3 from herald). That is a significant damage reduction, down to 8.52 wounds rather then 10.74 for the WL and 4.25 for the PG.

4) Your maths is actually slightly off, I suspect because you used 0.33 or 0.66 rather than 1/3 and 2/3 in your calculations, try not to as it can cause errors.

Using the corrected maths the Plague bearers win by 1 against the WLs (they take 2 less casualties and maintain their second rank compared to your maths) whilst the PG draw the combat (they actually technically win by 0.3).

If a unit of Silver helms is part of the fight, I assume in the flank (CR of Flank, breaking 2 ranks and 3 extra kills) would mean the WLs win by 5 and the PG by 6. That means that in the second round of combat they will start losing attacks.

5) On that note, wouldn't the Silver helms be a unit of 15 in three ranks in order to make use of martial prowess?

6) Banner of the World Dragon gives the WLs a 2+ ward against the Plaguebearers attacks, that means they only lose 1.42 models, not the 4 models you suggested. That means they win combat by 7 normally and by 13 if the Silver helms are supporting them.



For some maths of my own:

A unit of 7x4 White lions with Banner of the World Dragon is in combat with the aforementioned horde of Plaguebearers to the front AND to the rear (somehow).
The white lions do a total of 8 wounds (6 to the front, 2 to the rear).
The Plaguebearers combined do 3 wounds.
PBs have 3 ranks, rear, banner and 3 wounds. WL have 8 wounds and a banner. Drawn combat.
Without the banner the WLs take 18 wounds, hold only because they are stubborn and are destroyed by the next turn.
With the banner the WLs manage to draw the first combat and will be stubborn for the next 8 rounds, by which time one of the other elf units will have got involved (or you know, some of that magic the elves are famous for).

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2013, 05:54
for two books now, we get to watch everyone else have their OP unit/item without the massive cry that you should never play them.


Hardly. We had a very similar thread about the DP and the 3++ Lord with re-rolls. What was the other book, DoC? What exactly would you like to cry about here?


I think its more that players in general like when they have broken things in general period.

Or you could play with people with less adolescent behaviour. Could really shatter your unfettered cynicism.


+1 this. People claim to want balance, but what they really want most of all is to be on the winning side of things.


Ah. Does that include the Wood Elf, Beastmen and TK players? As a matter of fact, there is no antagonism between wanting balance and preferring to win, and no direct logical connection between the latter and OP items. Don't let the debate cloud your outlook.

yeknoMehT
24-06-2013, 10:30
That's because most people have no idea how to use stats.

From the look of your post, that includes you...


When was the last time you and your friends told each other you were allowed to use equally costed units? Not to mention that the White Lion unit needs core before it can even see the field, creating a secondary source of victory points.

Well, you do generally use equally sized armies. The most fundamental flaw with math-hammer is that it does not incorporate any contribution from outside (or has no rigorous means of doing so at best). You have to therefore assume that the remaining X points of the army are busy dealing with each other - effectively assuming that the support/buffs of both sides cancel out, thereby leaving two equally costed units to fight in a vacuum. You can of course tip the scales and see where the balance point is, but that is different than saying 'which unit is going to win'.


The point of the exercise was to show that even in idea situations where the HE with BotWD unit fought alone as to be the only unit to be attacked, the difference still wasn't game deciding as some people seem to think. And when use in conjunction with a support unit could quite easily lose the fight as the support unit is not protected and provides a source of combat resolution for the Daemon player to harvest.

You can however be forgiven for seeing the tree and missing the forest.
Noting the errors in your calculations (you seem to have been using a 2/3 survival probability for the BotWD, not 5/6) it does have a rather clear message. The ideal situation for the daemons (if they have to engage the BotWD unit at all that is) is to be flanking the HE unit on both sides. Even then, they struggle to actually kill much and are relying on the WLs failing a break test on stubborn Ld9 (maybe even with reroll and/or Ld10).

The idea of having combat resolution for the daemon player to 'harvest' is precisely why it won't happen very often. The high elf player should know that it is highly unlikely the unit with the banner will go anywhere, and will at worst tie up the big unit it has engaged for a few rounds of combat. The support units are then able to concentrate on the rest of the army. The daemon player should never be in a position to charge both the banner unit and a support unit, so the only way it will occur is for the banner unit to charge in as support - in which case it is likely in a flank.

As a side note, you make reference to losing 2D6+1 daemons to combat res - the Ld cannot be modified below 0 any more, so the worst you can lose is 2D6 (unless you roll a 12, then... poof!)

theunwantedbeing
24-06-2013, 11:17
A horde of 40 WL, with the BotWD & musician. 590pts
vs
A horde of 44 Plaguebearers, with banner and musician. 592pts

Head on.
White Lions go first, kill 11.11.
PB fight back, kill 1.78
Pretty clear they lose. (although they'll be there for a round or two)

Change the formation to a much narrower one of just 5 frontage for the plaguebearers.
Head on.
White lions go first, kill 7.78.
PB fight back, kill 0.54.
Pretty clear they still lose, but not by so much and they get to be steadfast at least. (although the elves will be reforming to a deeper formation to negate steadfast earlier but retain maximum killing power).

In a Flank however.
WL go first, kill 1.11
PB fight back, kill 0.65
PB actually win this fight due to ranks, with a meagre 27.77% chance to break (on ld8, with no re-roll)
The WL then have a 72.22% chance to reform where they will then win the fight from then on.

Clearly hitting the flanks is the superior tactic as you actually win the combat.
Hit both and the WL unit is stuck grinding you down at a piddly couple of wounds a turn (you won't grind them down but that's not the point).

The only issue now is to find such units within your own army, as cheaply as possible.

IcedCrow
24-06-2013, 12:29
Or you could play with people with less adolescent behaviour. Could really shatter your unfettered cynicism.

You only need to read forums. Ulthuan.net was an orgy of guffawing and l2p newb after the banner was released, with at first being its not really that bad, and then turning into "well demons were broken for so long that this is sweet karma"

Yes there are always some rational voices in the mix but so many were clucking at the thought of getting to use it because "its our turn".

Not to be limited to elf players. Grey knights players have long held the mantle, as were there a chorus of demon players chanting l2p when they were broken, and smug eldar players that would espouse how when their codex was broke that only the pinnacle of tactical geniuses could figure out how to play the army correctly.

Has nothing to do with my group. My group doesnt run things like that, and the guys that do that arent in our group will usually acknowledge that its broken and in a tournament thats the point.

One only needs to read forums to get that, at least the vocal majority, enjoy broken items when they are given to their army.

DaemonReign
24-06-2013, 12:37
The high and low, old and Young, serious and trolling - all coming together on a public forum where it's very difficult to tell who's who.
I know for a fact that there are people (and Groups) who values 'balance' above specific AB's being fired up and down the Power-pendulum.. I know this for a fact because, despite being a Daemon player (hehe) I'm one of these people.
On the other hand: Would I have attained such integrity fifteen years ago? I'd like to Think so, of course.. As we all would, I'm sure. :)

IcedCrow
24-06-2013, 13:31
I do think there are people that strive for balance. No question!

I just think that there are equal number of people that value their win/loss record more than balance and that when their army is given a crutch, that they embrace the crutch and then pooh pooh it with things like "it's not THAT bad... there are ways to counter it, demon players just need to learn to redirect like we have had to for YEARS" or by trying to convince people its not that good of an item and will ONLY be taken if the extra points can possibly be found for it (despite all of the competitive lists featuring it).

While a lot of people don't even post on forums, so you can't get their take, going by just what you read on message boards, I would say there are as many people that want broken things as there are that want balance. In my own personal area, I know there are people that also want broken things. They are typically the tournament only guys and they tend to stick with armies that have something broken about them and when that army gets balanced, they sell their army off for a new army that has something broken in it.

I'd say the camps are fairly even in number. The forums reflect that as well. So I stick by my statement... I think that its just that there are people that want broken crutches because it helps their win/loss record which is their current priority.

I think that broken items like this are put in the game intentionally to cater to that. That's not cynicism, that's demonstrated in the real world and on forums and its not restricted to just one game system (40k, or fantasy, or whatever), or one race (its pretty much any race's fans that get a broken item, they tend to embrace it and fight off any that insinuate its a little over powered with a variation of "l2p").

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 13:39
A horde of 40 WL, with the BotWD & musician. 590pts
vs
A horde of 44 Plaguebearers, with banner and musician. 592pts

Head on.
White Lions go first, kill 11.11.
PB fight back, kill 1.78
Pretty clear they lose. (although they'll be there for a round or two)

Change the formation to a much narrower one of just 5 frontage for the plaguebearers.
Head on.
White lions go first, kill 7.78.
PB fight back, kill 0.54.
Pretty clear they still lose, but not by so much and they get to be steadfast at least. (although the elves will be reforming to a deeper formation to negate steadfast earlier but retain maximum killing power).

In a Flank however.
WL go first, kill 1.11
PB fight back, kill 0.65
PB actually win this fight due to ranks, with a meagre 27.77% chance to break (on ld8, with no re-roll)
The WL then have a 72.22% chance to reform where they will then win the fight from then on.

Clearly hitting the flanks is the superior tactic as you actually win the combat.
Hit both and the WL unit is stuck grinding you down at a piddly couple of wounds a turn (you won't grind them down but that's not the point).

The only issue now is to find such units within your own army, as cheaply as possible.

Is that suppossed to be a counter argument or something ? Not only withing your army, but fulfilling a meaningful role against other armies aside HE would be required, and that's taking it into the vacuum where the HE let you flank him in the first place, which is highly unlikely for a army with access to nice sweet chaff.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2013, 13:57
You only need to read forums. Ulthuan.net was an orgy of guffawing and l2p newb after the banner was released, with at first being its not really that bad, and then turning into "well demons were broken for so long that this is sweet karma"


Yes, you're right, I saw it with my own eyes. Same thing happened when IG came out with its Valks and monster templates and melta spam. It's just...I don't know. Perhaps I just don't want to accept that people are actually so unfair when at the end of the day it is just a game. :o

theunwantedbeing
24-06-2013, 13:57
Is that suppossed to be a counter argument or something ?
Sure, it can be if you want.


Not only withing your army, but fulfilling a meaningful role against other armies aside HE would be required,
You're saying nobody would ever take ranked daemons of any kind?


and that's taking it into the vacuum where the HE let you flank him in the first place, which is highly unlikely for a army with access to nice sweet chaff.
Who says the HE player let himself get flanked?
Who says it's impossible to flank anything in a high elf army?
Please list this "nice sweet chaff" the high elf player has access to that will render the enemy daemon list 100% impotent.

:rolleyes:

Lord Solar Plexus
24-06-2013, 14:08
No, he says that the prerequisites for your scenario are extremely hard to meet. Flanking a unit on both sides with two ranked units as cheaply as possible...square peg, round hole. It's likely a third of an army which is now exposing itself to a lot of undue attention on it's own flanks.

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 14:12
Sure, it can be if you want.
Against what exactly ? I see mathhammers of two units equally priced against each other, were the WL's just curbstomp them. Then you say that with the involvement of other units, which is funny because not only you are forgetting about any kind of support the HE player has to stop this from happening and even if you happen to flank them, and losing a +3 per rank, it's highly unlikely that you will win a combat against that unit, with whom, you are tying more points than his for a sure loss in VP's. If that's what you consider a counter argument on the strenght and cheapness of the banner against daemons, consider me baffled.


You're saying nobody would ever take ranked daemons of any kind?
I am saying that the same tricks you are applying against the HE can be used against you, and HE actually have the edge since you are the one who has to come to them.


Who says the HE player let himself get flanked?
Who says it's impossible to flank anything in a high elf army?
Please list this "nice sweet chaff" the high elf player has access to that will render the enemy daemon list 100% impotent.

You are saying it, doing the mathhammer of a very unlikely scenario, where even then, the WL with the banner are more than likely to wipe out the whole unit in a few turns, with almost no losses, winning sweet VP's while tying more points than yours. It's not impossible, but unlikely and harder than the HE getting the flank on you.

I didn't say 100%, but you know, eagles and reavers are pretty nice, didn't you know ? What exactly does the demon use to prevent the HE from stopping him from reforming with eagles/ light cav ? How exactly does the demon place his horde in a position to flank a horde unit of WL's ? You are opening a can of worms just when you use a IF scenario.


:rolleyes:

Indeed.

yeknoMehT
24-06-2013, 14:36
I think you're getting a little over-excited here Tau_player.

The purpose of the analysis of the 'double flank' scenario is to illustrate how in this 'absolute best case' for daemons, it's still problematic to get rid of the unit with the banner.

From the sound of things, you're pretty doom and gloom about the banner, which seems to be somewhat where theunwantedbeing is coming from (if from a slightly more optimistic standpoint). Maybe you could take comfort in the fact that you are both arguing that the banner is very tough to deal with?

theunwantedbeing
24-06-2013, 14:42
I didn't say 100%, but you know, eagles and reavers are pretty nice, didn't you know ? What exactly does the demon use to prevent the HE from stopping him from reforming with eagles/ light cav ? How exactly does the demon place his horde in a position to flank a horde unit of WL's ? You are opening a can of worms just when you use a IF scenario.

The point was more than to beat that WL horde with the Banner, you flank it, with a ranked unit.
And provided you can deny it a re-roll to the ensuing break test, you stand a small but not unreasonable chance to break it.
To prevent it turning and flatting said flanker, you then need a second unit to prevent that.

The question now is how exactly do you manage that?

Well, you need a ranked unit (easy enough, all the core units are)
You need a second unit (A greater daemon would do, as would some furies or similar)

Now you need to make sure that they survive past the great eagles and reavers.
Or rather, you need something that can beat reavers and eagles without dying....which is frankly every choice in the daemon army.

If we're going all nurgle.
Nurglings, 80pts+ per unit (upto 3 units)
Beasts, 60pts+ per unit (upto 3 units)
Furies of Nurgle, 70pts+ per unit (upto 3 units)
Plague Drones, 165pts+ per unit (upto 2 units)

Take all of them and that's 960pts in total (630 without the plague drones).
How many points are getting spend on these eagles and reavers?

sigmarus
24-06-2013, 14:43
Trying to stay on topic here, one thing that I like was a modified ruling for the banner of the world dragon at a local tournament. The banner only gave a 4++ save vs magic, not a 2++. it makes it still good, but not broken. I have been a high elf player for 10 years, and I honestly liked this ruling.

IcedCrow
24-06-2013, 14:45
A 4++ save for 50 points would be reasonable.

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 14:48
Trying to stay on topic here, one thing that I like was a modified ruling for the banner of the world dragon at a local tournament. The banner only gave a 4++ save vs magic, not a 2++. it makes it still good, but not broken. I have been a high elf player for 10 years, and I honestly liked this ruling.

Yep it's reasonable enough to make it work. I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming FAQ listed the 2+ as an errata.

yeknoMehT
24-06-2013, 14:51
Also worth pointing out that you don't need to double flank with two ranked up units. A Nurgle Soul grinder or a great unclean one can work just as well to keep the unit from reforming. This does mean that an exceptionally large chunk of the army is at risk, but if GUO has lore of death, Doom and Darkness might tip the balance enough to keep combat short (if you get it, and can cast it successfully on the turn it matters).

This greatly reduces the difficulty in actually managing this. In fact, the GUO can potentially withstand being to the front as well for a turn or two without giving away massive CR:

Say 12A against him (you'd get him on the same side of the unit as the PBs so the elves have to choose - and they'll likely be going for the easier target of the PBs), hitting on 5s (or 6s if failed fear), wounding on 5s, saving on 5s is going to average 0.89W per round assuming they pass fear. Taking into account fear being failed 10/36 for Ld8 (no rerolls) this takes the expectation down to 26/36*0.89 + 10/36*0.44 = 0.765W.

Even if all 16A go against the GUO, that's approx 1W per turn (and none to the PBs).

It's tough going, and unlikely to appear often as an option, but perhaps a HE player assuming the unit is invulnerable might inadvertently leave themselves open to such a maneouver.

Vipoid
24-06-2013, 15:24
Yep it's reasonable enough to make it work. I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming FAQ listed the 2+ as an errata.

I fear if they intended to make such a drastic change in an faq, they would have already done so.

Lord Inquisitor
24-06-2013, 18:33
I saw the Banner of the World Dragon at a local tournament. This was on a unit of 50 white lions with alarielle and the BotWD. I didn't play against this list but I did watch the outcome of his games. He drew against two daemon players. One was able to run circles around the unit. I believe he scored a minor loss (close to a draw) against the high elves by running around and trying to pick up points on core. The next was obliterated by the white lions. Lastly the HE player went up against Bretonnians who again had nothing to threaten this unit but were able to largely avoid the unit and pick up on points elsewhere. The Brets lost also but again a minor win only for the HE.

So in conclusion the "giant block of WL with alarielle and BotWD" build won all three games but it wasn't able to dominate sufficiently to win the tournament even with two daemon opponents.

Sexiest_hero
24-06-2013, 18:44
Thats what I've seen. It's a gimmick that only works if you feed it. It's a lot of points to have a 11-9 or 10-10, then get rolled by stone throwers and dwellers.

IcedCrow
24-06-2013, 19:04
Yeah. The banner is not that big a deal in tournaments where you must erase your opponent to win the tournament. In events and games where a win is a win regardless of if its 2000-0 or not, it becomes more of an issue.

Lord Inquisitor
24-06-2013, 19:53
Thats what I've seen. It's a gimmick that only works if you feed it. It's a lot of points to have a 11-9 or 10-10, then get rolled by stone throwers and dwellers.
Well, even then it's pretty resistant to stone throwers (3+ armour and 5+ ward) and dwellers (S4).

You either smash this unit convincingly or you leave it the hell alone.


Yeah. The banner is not that big a deal in tournaments where you must erase your opponent to win the tournament. In events and games where a win is a win regardless of if its 2000-0 or not, it becomes more of an issue.
Well our tournament did actually work on a win/loss ratio as the criteria for victory, the margin of victory only mattered as the tie breaker. As it happened he and I both got three wins so it went to total victory points as the tie-breaker and I won out there.

I'd like to try out against this army both with my ogres and with my daemons just to see what I could do against it.

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 20:37
Yeah, i bet the games were also a lot of fun. I am going to test tomorrow and from this week the alarielle with light lore (having played with her since the book release). Not thrilled about it, but gotta know.

BattleofLund
24-06-2013, 20:44
On paper it seems pretty over-powered, at least undercosted since it does at least the same thing as a Magic Resistance (5) item (which should cost 75 points), plus the bonus effects of granting saves against magical attacks an not only spells.

I've not had the opportunity to se it in use yet. How does it work in actual play?

-T10

Well... this is probably off the end of the chart, but. I finally met the Banner last weekend.

Opponent had seven Dragon Princes with BSB and Mage (lvl2). Decide to charge house with ten Shades 'Because he couldn't let them sit there all game shooting 20 dice a turn'. Champion has +2Str sword, BSB has +1Str sword. Kill one Shade each. Remaining guys kill four Shades. Four Shades kill Mage. Steadfast, cavalry bounces back.

I had no idea they had the Banner, decide to cast my only damage magic on them - my lvl2 Metal has the number six spell. IF. Kill BSB, couple guys. The four Shades remaining in the house spend two turns executing last survivors while same canter away futilely trying to save their points. When removing last cavalryelf, my opponent reveals they had the Banner.

Yours truly still loses big, because a) the Lord on Biggest Dragon I couldn't touch, and b) eventually my cheesed-out Sorceress Lord General blew herself into the Realm of Chaos, as is ultimately the destiny of all magicky types who don't get dead otherwise.

Lesson? No. Well... no, not really. I mean, I was aware that the Banner could be there. But since I was even more aware that the Dragonrider and Phoenix could beat any magic weapon of mine quite thorougly, I hadn't any.

yeknoMehT
24-06-2013, 20:46
I'd like to try out against this army both with my ogres and with my daemons just to see what I could do against it.

Agreed - I'm quite looking forward to a game against it, as it does pose something of a challenge, although if I'm using a Slaanesh/Tzeentch list (or one of those mono-god) I suspect I may struggle to do anything except avoid them...

Kahadras
24-06-2013, 22:10
So in conclusion the "giant block of WL with alarielle and BotWD" build won all three games but it wasn't able to dominate sufficiently to win the tournament even with two daemon opponents.

I must say that I'm not really suprised. I mean in a situation where the BotWD/Alarielle/White Lion block got an amazing draw (two DoC players which is pretty close to an optimal situation) the High Elves still didn't manage to win.


I had no idea they had the Banner

This is probably going to be the case for many players out there.

Kahadras

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 22:26
I must say that I'm not really suprised. I mean in a situation where the BotWD/Alarielle/White Lion block got an amazing draw (two DoC players which is pretty close to an optimal situation) the High Elves still didn't manage to win.


Awesome situation for the demons too :p.

Kahadras
24-06-2013, 22:39
Awesome situation for the demons too

Well the Daemon players got one hard game each. The High Elf player got two games which, according to internet wisdom, they should have just crusied through.

Kahadras

Daenerys Targaryen
24-06-2013, 22:39
I must say that I'm not really suprised. I mean in a situation where the BotWD/Alarielle/White Lion block got an amazing draw (two DoC players which is pretty close to an optimal situation) the High Elves still didn't manage to win.


Kahadras
Or rather, 50 White Lions is moronic and simply overkill. 30 on the other hand would have left some pts left for decent chaff removers and/or other supports which would make the list hit a lot harder.

Kahadras
24-06-2013, 22:47
Or rather, 50 White Lions is moronic and simply overkill. 30 on the other hand would have left some pts left for decent chaff removers and/or other supports which would make the list hit a lot harder.

Well the more points you deploy out of the 'unkillable' Bannerstar is more points you give up to the armies that rely on magic/magical attacks. In addition it makes the 'Bannerstar' easier prey to the armies out there that don't rely on magical attacks.

Kahadras

Lord Inquisitor
24-06-2013, 23:21
I should add that I did not know the High Elf player personally, I've no idea whether he was a good player or not. I know that his opponents were daemons (decent player), daemons (very new to 8th) and brets (good player).

Let's not extrapolate too far about what this means for the power level of the Banner of the World Dragon. After all, perhaps the HE player was a poor player with a netlist that was carried to three wins by the list? Or maybe it isn't all it is cracked up to be and the HE player is simply a good player? Let's not get too carried away with a sample size of one...

I do think it illustrates the issues that TOs will have with this banner though. That is a list I would have a hard time beating with my daemons no matter who is running it. Not impossible, but hard going and extremely difficult to get a big win out of on a 20-0 system, depending on how many points aren't in that big unit.

Kahadras
24-06-2013, 23:35
Let's not extrapolate too far about

Well no lets not. I just find it amusing that a High Elf player went into two games in a three game tournament against an army which I've been assured by 'internet wisdom' that they should be able to stomp all over with almost no effort. From the way some people have hyped the banner you'd think this kind of thing would have been impossible to happen.


I do think it illustrates the issues that TOs will have with this banner though. That is a list I would have a hard time beating with my daemons no matter who is running it. Not impossible, but hard going and extremely difficult to get a big win out of on a 20-0 system, depending on how many points aren't in that big unit.

In addition it also needs to be concidered how the banner does against armies that don't care that the unit has a 2+ save against magical attacks. As a player who fields almost pure mundane attacks I'd be campaigning for the banner to be manadatory in all High Elf tournament list (except mine of course)

Kahadras

Gradek
25-06-2013, 00:00
Well no lets not. I just find it amusing that a High Elf player went into two games in a three game tournament against an army which I've been assured by 'internet wisdom' that they should be able to stomp all over with almost no effort. From the way some people have hyped the banner you'd think this kind of thing would have been impossible to happen.



In addition it also needs to be concidered how the banner does against armies that don't care that the unit has a 2+ save against magical attacks. As a player who fields almost pure mundane attacks I'd be campaigning for the banner to be manadatory in all High Elf tournament list (except mine of course)

Kahadras

What you are intentionally leaving out is that the BotWD is an auto include in every HE list at virtually no opportunity cost to the HE player. When it does nothing at all (which will be rare considering it provides miscast protection too) against a magic-less army, it only cost 50 points a hardly game breaking number. But when it goes up against any magic wielding army, it is going to get more than its points back every time and against daemons it is essentially unfair.

Which brings me to why this should be banned in all tournaments, because it completely takes the fun out of games vs certain armies. It does this to such a level that it is going to create a bad experience and waste of time for many players at tournaments. Playing a game where you have to run away the whole time isn't a fun time in order to just get a draw.

Kahadras
25-06-2013, 00:09
What you are intentionally leaving out is that the BotWD is an auto include in every HE list at virtually no opportunity cost to the HE player. When it does nothing at all (which will be rare considering it provides miscast protection too) against a magic-less army, it only cost 50 points a hardly game breaking number. But when it goes up against any magic wielding army, it is going to get more than its points back every time

It costs points. It fills up a banner slot. If you want the 'miscast protection' you have to put your magic caster in the same unit and it won't save your Archmage from being sucked into the Warp, losing magic level and hemorraging power dice. It won't make it's points back unless you manage to throw enough miscasts and roll 'well' enough on the miscast table (i.e big explosions) to ensure that, if not for the banner, the Archmage would have died or unit would have been tabled.

Kahadras

Lord Inquisitor
25-06-2013, 00:28
There is a fallacy there that something needs to "make it's points back" every game to be effective. I often take the rune maw banner, that takes up a BSB slot, costs 60 points and it only moves the spell effect onto another unit. I know that if I go up against dwarfs or any army with minimal magic, or one that uses vortecies or augments it is not only wasted points but wasting the combat potential of my bruiser. Fundamentally it very rarely actually comes into play at all as most players don't bother trying to cast spells on that unit. Is it not worth the points then when it can save my bacon against a devastating spell once in a while?

grumbaki
25-06-2013, 00:31
Here's a solution.

If you are a daemon player, say to any high elf player in a friendly game: "The Banner of the World Dragon is far too OP against my army. If it is in your list, would you mind not taking it? I'll give you a few minutes to redo your list if you like."

If they refuse, then say "Alright. Can we agree that the banner only works against spells and my heroes then? That's still really powerful, and it gives me a fighting chance."

If he still refuses, find someone else to play against.

---

If you are in a tournament, then if you really feel like being a dink, hide your entire army. Put them against the far table edge. Hide them behind trees and hills. Do your best to not get into any combat, and go for a straight draw. ;)

Kahadras
25-06-2013, 00:46
Is it not worth the points then when it can save my bacon against a devastating spell once in a while?

If the Banner of the World Dragon saves a few of your models from a miscast or protects the unit from a direct damage spell or a magical ranged attack in a game does that make it as broken as the Runemaw banner?

Kahadras

dagreenmoonboyz
25-06-2013, 01:09
If the Banner of the World Dragon saves a few of your models from a miscast or protects the unit from a direct damage spell or a magical ranged attack in a game does that make it as broken as the Runemaw banner?

Kahadras

I was entirely unaware that the runemaw banner was considered broken. Inquisitor was stating that an item can be worth its points even if it functions some of the time. The BotWD functions in a lot of situations (some more impactful than others...) and only takes a banner slot on a unit making it very efficient for its points, an opinion which has be restated a few hundred times over these perpetual debates.

DaemonReign
25-06-2013, 01:28
Trying to stay on topic here, one thing that I like was a modified ruling for the banner of the world dragon at a local tournament. The banner only gave a 4++ save vs magic, not a 2++. it makes it still good, but not broken. I have been a high elf player for 10 years, and I honestly liked this ruling.

It's reasonable, yes. Still a bit harsh on Daemons.. Still a bit too good for being an rnf-flag. Make it 55pts (thus BSB-only) and 4++ and you've got yourself a pretty balanced item I'd say.
However, merely making it 4++ (like your local tourney did) is 'reasonable' in the sense that it no longer sticks out compared to other things in other books, so to speak..
So that's a very sane house-rule all things concidered.

Lord Solar Plexus
25-06-2013, 05:34
Well the more points you deploy out of the 'unkillable' Bannerstar is more points you give up to the armies that rely on magic/magical attacks.

Hardly. You do not simply hand your opponent those points. To be frank, I'm surprised that you would put forward such a notion at all.

Daenerys Targaryen
25-06-2013, 23:24
Well the more points you deploy out of the 'unkillable' Bannerstar is more points you give up to the armies that rely on magic/magical attacks. In addition it makes the 'Bannerstar' easier prey to the armies out there that don't rely on magical attacks.

Kahadras
Sure, because Silverhelms drop like flies and Bolt Throwers are simple things to charge by turn 2... 30 White Lions is still no easy brick to kill for most armies, especially considering they hold up to missile fire almost as well as heavy cav.

Yowzo
26-06-2013, 09:47
It's reasonable, yes. Still a bit harsh on Daemons.. Still a bit too good for being an rnf-flag. Make it 55pts (thus BSB-only) and 4++ and you've got yourself a pretty balanced item I'd say.

It could still be carried by dragon princes, though.

Shadeseraph
26-06-2013, 12:47
It could still be carried by dragon princes, though.

And that would be the only reason I'd use it in that incarnation. I mean, I agree the banner in its current state is nuts, but nerfing it to a situational 4++ that can only be taken on the BSB and precludes him from using any other magic item... Well, I would still not use the banner, but for completely different reasons. I'd rather get the loremaster cloak back, at least that way I could still get an enchanted shield and a luckstone along it, it grants a decent spell protection, and it's not restricted to just BSBs, so a mage could still use it.

stonehorse
26-06-2013, 12:55
My Dwarfs & Ogres struggle against it... it is too powerful for it's points cost.

I may not have faced it in battle yet, but doing the armchair math hammer in my head I can't see how my Ogres are going to beat it, nor my Dwarfs. It is as if GW are making items that make me re-evaluate my army builds. As if I can't just turn up with the same army list time and time again and expect the same outcome, madness.

Sorry, I'm being a bit of a sarcastic bugger here. It isn't broken, powerful against Daemons of Chaos, but against all other armies it is a 'meh' item.

Vipoid
26-06-2013, 13:04
And that would be the only reason I'd use it in that incarnation. I mean, I agree the banner in its current state is nuts, but nerfing it to a situational 4++ that can only be taken on the BSB and precludes him from using any other magic item... Well, I would still not use the banner, but for completely different reasons. I'd rather get the loremaster cloak back, at least that way I could still get an enchanted shield and a luckstone along it, it grants a decent spell protection, and it's not restricted to just BSBs, so a mage could still use it.

If it was 4++, I don't think it would need to be BSB only.

Saying that though, the Flag of Blood Keep (4+ ward against ranged attacks) is 75pts for Blood Knights, with no option to be taken on any other unit or the BSB. So, limiting a 4++ BotWD to BSBs and Dragon Princes hardly seems like the end of the world in comparison.

N1AK
26-06-2013, 13:29
If the banner had been 3++ (not protecting against miscasts) then even at the same price point it wouldn't have caused nearly as much of a storm. Phoenix Guard already have a 4++ ward (and can get it to 3++) and no one cares. Yes it would still be very effective against Daemons, but even in that match up it would be twice as easy to kill them and they couldn't use it as the perfect mage bunker.

Yowzo
26-06-2013, 13:44
If it was 4++, I don't think it would need to be BSB only.Saying that though, the Flag of Blood Keep (4+ ward against ranged attacks) is 75pts for Blood Knights, with no option to be taken on any other unit or the BSB. So, limiting a 4++ BotWD to BSBs and Dragon Princes hardly seems like the end of the world in comparison.

For DPs I'd rather have a 4++ ward against hellblaster/organ cannon/bolt throwers, etc. than a 2+ against magical attacks. Even at 75 points.

Lord Inquisitor
26-06-2013, 13:57
Hellcannons are magical now aren't they?

In terms of artillery protection the BotWD does a good job against dwarf, skaven, DoC and tomb king artillery. That's a sizable chunk out of the armies with artillery. Who actually has non-magical artillery? O&G, empire, ogres?

theunwantedbeing
26-06-2013, 14:05
Hellcannons are magical now aren't they?

In terms of artillery protection the BotWD does a good job against dwarf, skaven, DoC and tomb king artillery. That's a sizable chunk out of the armies with artillery. Who actually has non-magical artillery? O&G, empire, ogres?

Dwarves, Dark Elves, High Elves, Beastmen (Cygor), Bretonnians.

Daenerys Targaryen
26-06-2013, 14:05
Hellcannons are magical now aren't they?

In terms of artillery protection the BotWD does a good job against dwarf, skaven, DoC and tomb king artillery. That's a sizable chunk out of the armies with artillery. Who actually has non-magical artillery? O&G, empire, ogres?

Don't forget Brets & their S5 trebuckets.

N1AK
26-06-2013, 15:17
My solution to the banner:
1/ In friendly games I ask my opponent if he is willing to not take it; if they want the option to I bring fully optimised lists with slightly limited risk from it (2 huge units of Horrors, huge Ghoul horde, dual Terrorgheist, mundane weapon on Lord etc) if they agree not to then I take a less optimised build (drop one TG, smaller Ghoul unit, one unit of Horrors).
2/ Local tournaments have banned or nerfed it so far, I'm running one later this year and the banner will either be banned outright (the only outright ban in my comp) or increased to 100pts (I don't change rules in comp because it can be confusing for players). I'd like to avoid banning anything so I'll watch how things develop through the rest of summer.