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Kurisu313
19-06-2013, 16:50
There's been some discussion over GW's recent use of one-click bundles. The idea that you can buy five or so items at the same time, but gain absolutely zero discount for doing so. I was curious as to how effective that has been, so I made a poll!

Basically, I want to know if you've used the one click bundle on a spur of the moment thing. I mean, if you were going to buy everything anyway, then why not?

EDIT: Please no price discussions!

Vazalaar
19-06-2013, 16:55
No, and I will never do it.
I don't see the benefit in getting everything right away. You can only assemble/paint 1 thing at the time.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
19-06-2013, 17:48
I wonder if the guy who thought up this no-deal bundle deal got a promotion.

Hendarion
19-06-2013, 17:53
24:0.
Wow. I wonder what number it might reach before it hits X:1.

Wintermute
19-06-2013, 19:07
The op specifically requested not to make comments about pricing.

His request was ignored.

Therefore I am making the same request and if anyone ignores me I'll take action.

Wintermute

drakken
19-06-2013, 19:09
4-5 years ago they did some Epic Armageddon bundles which actually cost more than buying them individually

Dryaktylus
19-06-2013, 19:42
None of the bundles are only consisting of stuff I actually want, so no. Some of them are kinda reasonable, others not.

If there's a bundle with new plastic Techmarines and Servitors, I MAY be tempted, though a few clicks more won't kill me either.

Nymie_the_Pooh
19-06-2013, 19:46
I haven't bought any one click bundles, but I did buy some of the older bundles. There's a big box of Chaos Warriors sitting right here actually that was released alongside the Storm of Chaos book.

Konovalev
19-06-2013, 20:14
BAM! I'll be that brave 1. I bought a leman russ bundle some years ago when I was starting my IA Armoured Company. I don't remember if the bundle stemmed from the release of Apocalypse, Reloaded, or Spearhead, but it was back in '04 I think. I seem to remember there being something of a discount in the bundle but perhaps not as the recent bundles have no discounts, did they ever? I had been planning to buy a company of Russes anyway. Already had the chimeras and steel legion troops.

jack da greenskin
19-06-2013, 20:24
No. And I'm very unlikely to in future - I generally buy from online retailers or a local store offering discount, unless I'm buying a single paint or similar.

But we're not GW's target audience. They keep doing these bundles so there must be some people buying them - Parents I assume. I'd think these are really easy to talk people who were spending a lot anyway into buying, eg presents etc.

jack da greenskin
19-06-2013, 20:25
BAM! I'll be that brave 1. I bought a leman russ bundle some years ago when I was starting my IA Armoured Company. I don't remember if the bundle stemmed from the release of Apocalypse, Reloaded, or Spearhead, but it was back in '04 I think. I seem to remember there being something of a discount in the bundle but perhaps not as the recent bundles have no discounts, did they ever? I had been planning to buy a company of Russes anyway. Already had the chimeras and steel legion troops.

I think the OP is talking about these new style bundles - "Buy X, Y and Z... For the price of X, Y and Z!". Buying an apocalypse bundle is different - There was an inherent discount, and a nice one I believe.

Angelwing
19-06-2013, 22:12
New style bundles? Not a chance. Old style apoc bundles or back of WD battle report bundles from over a decade back? Yes I have.

Dr Zoidberg
19-06-2013, 22:25
No. But I must admit that I did look at the Eldar launch bundle and think "If I had the cash lying around, I'd possibly buy that".

Mastodon
19-06-2013, 22:37
I dont think this is the forum that will gather anything but a negative response to this poll.

I personally know of 2 people that have used the 1 click collections, but thats entirely because they wanted all of the new things and it was easier to click that than add them all.

effbomber
19-06-2013, 23:07
There must have been a lot of people out there thinking "I wish I could buy £800 worth of eldar, but I just don't have time to CLICK ALL OF THE THINGS" before GW came along and changed the freaking world forever...

BTJ
19-06-2013, 23:12
Honestly, if I could afford to, and there was one I liked, I'd either order from Wayland for a significant saving, or 'settle' for a measly ~10% off at the LGS and not have to wait on shipping across the Irish Sea.

Little Joe
19-06-2013, 23:31
No, since it is a bad deal and for just one click I expect a good deal.

Hawkkf
19-06-2013, 23:40
If I had already been saving for exactly what is in a given bundle, then I would have voted yes. But the odds of any bundle being exactly what I am looking for diminishes with the amount of items added.

Konovalev already mentioned the old leman russ company deal that came out with apocalypse. Anyone looking to start an armoured company would be interested and the discount at that time was enough to make many people on the fence get it. The problem is without a discount you have to look at exactly what you are getting. For instance, if the same player already had a russ and wanted an armoured company then the bundle still may be of interest as the discount may pay for the a russ. Without a discount there is zero need for the extra russ.

On the other hand, the guard battle force has a solid start to a guard army and includes a very little used sentinel. It is still consider by people I know as a great way to start or supplement a guard force, even if you may never use the sentinel due to survivability in a game. (I am not sure if the battle forces have a discount or not, so I will not factor that in.)

So in my mind any bundle that helps start an army or is a good supplement still has value even if there is no discount, but an entire army at once has less utility. Even then if it is a full playable army it may have some use at the release of the main army codex. Many of those interested in the Iyaden force problably picked up a wraithknight or wraithguard when the main codex dropped, which makes a whole army bundle less desired if you already bought some of the components seperately..

As someone on the other thread stated, if they used WD to show a starter force and highlited it as a usable list, then it has a great value for players new to that army (Specially if they add in a codex to the mix). I.E. white dwarf comes out and shows the new units and a starter army including all of the new toys, then when pre-orders go up a limited time one-click bundle with that same list is much more desireable, price non-withstanding. n contrast this current GW offer of 'hey now that you have bought some stuff lets spend a whole bunch more at once' has little value to most of thier customers.

loveless
19-06-2013, 23:44
The best part of these is when something similar shows up on eBay at the usual retailer discount (and I still find it too expensive in one blow :shifty:)

Does it count as buying a one-click bundle if I buy the same bundle from Joe's Discount Wargaming Extravaganza for 20% less than GW Direct? I'm assuming Joe is offering the same exact bundle, but at a lower cost, so no need to do all that extra pesky mouse-clicking.

effbomber
20-06-2013, 00:18
Games workshop are really catering to the significant minority of consumers who just hate clicking stuff. And it's about time.

Wiseman
20-06-2013, 01:24
I've not, but i do know a few people that did for the new edition of 40k. They also got a whole bunch of extra collectors items in it that wasnt mentioned, such as cards of each books, a certificated, a mug and other bits and pieces, ill see if i can find out exactly what it was.

Fizzy
20-06-2013, 02:31
Wow 1 "Yes but I planned on getting them anyway" and 113 "No". I think that tells us what we need to know. GW start doing discount deals!

Scaryscarymushroom
20-06-2013, 03:18
Wow 1 "Yes but I planned on getting them anyway" and 113 "No". I think that tells us what we need to know. GW start doing discount deals!

And judging by the posts in this thread, the 1 yes was a person referring to the old apocalypse bundle packs, which were not actually "1-click bundles."

m1acca1551
20-06-2013, 03:21
Nope, never, no way In hell!!! Well maybe if I win lotto and even the. I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of actually selling one :)

Gerod253
20-06-2013, 06:48
As they are, not happening. Nice thought, but poor execution. Also, receiving an email today about at 'One Day Only' 1 click bundle honestly got on my nerves. I just don't see a reason for it. If I'm going to pay full retail then I'll support my FLGS. Now, maybe if they included a small discount in the bundles, and made them available to retailers to sell, I'd be interested in more guard infantry. Happily, buying GW products in not my favorite Hobby.

avien
20-06-2013, 08:22
. Happily, buying GW products in not my favorite Hobby.

I see what you did there! Ha!

Agreed. And to address the poll... No. Why on earth would anyone buy a bundle that offers nothing more than picking them individually as you need them .

See the quote above. I echo that sentiment.

MiyamatoMusashi
20-06-2013, 08:36
I dont think this is the forum that will gather anything but a negative response to this poll.

I'm curious why you think the group "spends a lot of time talking about 40K and Warhammer" is completely separate to the group "spends a lot of money on 40K and Warhammer".

If these bundles aren't intended for us, who are they intended for? Beginners? How many beginners are on the GW mailing list already, to even be aware of a bundle on offer for only 24 hours, with £400 to drop on it with no time to consider? Parents - same question?

Herzlos
20-06-2013, 08:51
I've not, but i do know a few people that did for the new edition of 40k. They also got a whole bunch of extra collectors items in it that wasnt mentioned, such as cards of each books, a certificated, a mug and other bits and pieces, ill see if i can find out exactly what it was.

Yeah I know of someone that did this and sold off all of the extra bits which essentially paid for the stuff he actually wanted.

On the bundle deals; I'd consider them if they had some significant discount, otherwise I'd pick them up piecemeal as I was ready for them.

Ebon
20-06-2013, 10:37
Not yet but I'm likely to in the future. In order to get me to buy a 1-click bundle, I have to A) want everything in the bundle and B) want it on the day of release and C) be willing to pay 20% extra to get it on release day. So far, none of the bundles have satisfied all three points.
However, Lizardmen are apparently due in August. I will be buying everything, will want it on release day and will be willing to pay extra to have it that day. So I'll probably be using the 1-click bundle for that.

nosebiter
20-06-2013, 10:47
No.

Just the marceting aspect of the "buy now or in 24 hours you have to click mouse 5 times"!! Is insulting.

theshoveller
20-06-2013, 10:53
No.

Just the marceting aspect of the "buy now or in 24 hours you have to click mouse 5 times"!! Is insulting.
It's not aimed at you. It's aimed at people who don't know what they're buying (i.e. people buying gifts).

theshoveller
20-06-2013, 10:59
I'm curious why you think the group "spends a lot of time talking about 40K and Warhammer" is completely separate to the group "spends a lot of money on 40K and Warhammer".

If these bundles aren't intended for us, who are they intended for? Beginners? How many beginners are on the GW mailing list already, to even be aware of a bundle on offer for only 24 hours, with £400 to drop on it with no time to consider? Parents - same question?
Parents/grandparents/whathaveyou who have bought from the online store in the past may well be on the mailing list (since you only need to forget to click one thing to end up on it). The email arrives in your inbox, you remember that Little Timmy's birthday is coming up, a few clicks later you're a hundred quid poorer but have sorted a birthday present with minimal effort. This is all fairly standard online marketing stuff. Whether or not the 24-hour limit works to galvanise impulse buyers is a matter of debate, but GW loses nothing by trying it.

The Marshel
20-06-2013, 11:03
It's not aimed at you. It's aimed at people who don't know what they're buying (i.e. people buying gifts).

how many people spend $800 aus on a gift if they don't fully understand what they're buying?

Angelwing
20-06-2013, 11:11
GW start doing discount deals!

They currently have 1 click discount deals going for 40k bikes. eldar vipers, eldar jetbikes, space marine bikes / scout bikes, chaos bikes, necron destroyers and tau crisis battle suits.

SlaughterSun
20-06-2013, 11:12
Haven't bought any deal and considering that these offer no value whatsoever when compared to purchasing the minis individually I will definetelly not buy one.

The Marshel
20-06-2013, 11:21
They currently have 1 click discount deals going for 40k bikes. eldar vipers, eldar jetbikes, space marine bikes / scout bikes, chaos bikes, necron destroyers and tau crisis battle suits.

no so much a deal as it is a new box set, at least for the bikes and suits (not sure about vipers). They aren't limited release bundles and wont be going away. Still a positive to see the discount, but they aren't 1 click bundles

ac4155
20-06-2013, 11:23
I've considered getting some, but it would only be for things I was buying anyway.

Though at the moment I'm currently buying things other than GW to just get a bit of variety. X-wing, Perry Miniatures, few mantic bits (Deadzone, Dreadball etc). I still make the odd GW purchase, but mainly special characters until I fully start my Tau army or crack on with my Space Marine army.

theshoveller
20-06-2013, 11:32
how many people spend $800 aus on a gift if they don't fully understand what they're buying?
I don't know any Australians, so I couldn't tell you. I do, however, have 30 years of people saying "you want what for your birthday?" under my belt.

Shadey
20-06-2013, 12:27
I dont think this is the forum that will gather anything but a negative response to this poll.

I personally know of 2 people that have used the 1 click collections, but thats entirely because they wanted all of the new things and it was easier to click that than add them all.

As opposed to which forum that would garner a positive response?

Chivs
20-06-2013, 12:40
When the One click bundles first came out, whilst they did appear to be rather a daft idea, it does have the legitimate reason of saving customers some time, and maybe convincing them that they might as well get that 'One more item' they were on the fence. Cynics however (self included) can view it as something masquerading as a discount, as most times when you see a bulk package there is a discount applied.

Making it a 1 day limited offer though does not have this. I can't think of any reason why you would make a bundle like this limited edition apart from to make people think that if they don't click, they'll be missing out on a discount. If the previous One Click Bundles were a borderline con, then I think this one has crossed the line. They may not be lying, but there's an underlying implication that GW are happy to let customers think they're getting.

As for the vote itself, a very resounding no. I don't buy anything GW related other than paint at less than a 20% discount, so there's no way that a bundle like that will appeal.

EmperorNorton
20-06-2013, 12:46
It's not aimed at you. It's aimed at people who don't know what they're buying (i.e. people buying gifts).

Does that make it less insulting somehow?

Chapters Unwritten
20-06-2013, 14:02
I got some during the awesome heyday of the Apocalypse bundles. Those were great value. I've often wondered if the future afterward, with things like designing old models into obsoletion and raising prices, factored in how those bundles must have maxed out so many people's collections/FOC.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Konovalev
20-06-2013, 14:04
Does that make it less insulting somehow?
Yes? How are you insulted by it? Are you insulted that grocery stores sell baby formula because you are not a baby?

DarthSte
20-06-2013, 14:17
I bought a couple of the Army Deals and Apocalypse sets 5+ years ago, when they had a discount, but can't see any reason to buy these new bundles, they seem a bit daft to me.

Mastodon
20-06-2013, 15:16
I'm curious why you think the group "spends a lot of time talking about 40K and Warhammer" is completely separate to the group "spends a lot of money on 40K and Warhammer".

If these bundles aren't intended for us, who are they intended for? Beginners? How many beginners are on the GW mailing list already, to even be aware of a bundle on offer for only 24 hours, with £400 to drop on it with no time to consider? Parents - same question?

Because the majority of GW general posters are people that have long ago stopped purchasing from GW. It would have been better to have placed it in the 40k/WFB forums where people are usually actively purchasing things from GW instead of complaining about box art being wrong.

Moralein
20-06-2013, 15:39
I can't see the point in these bundles. If there was a discount then I could see why people would buy them. As it is you're restricted to buying whatever GW think you should at the same cost as buying it individually. The only benefit is that you don't have to click the mouse button as many times!

Mastodon, perhaps you could introduce this into your store? Perhaps throw in a free plastic bag, after all you're saving customers from having to lift multiple boxes off the shelves!

I know it's a pretty common practice, supermarkets sometimes charge more for bulk packages (people buy it because they assume it's cheaper), even Amazon suggest that you buy what you've clicked on and related products for the same price as they would cost individually (but at least it might suggest something you hadn't thought of). However I can't see the point of a restrictive, pre-selected bundle that doesn't save you a penny.

EmperorNorton
20-06-2013, 15:50
It's not aimed at you. It's aimed at people who don't know what they're buying (i.e. people buying gifts).


Yes? How are you insulted by it? Are you insulted that grocery stores sell baby formula because you are not a baby?

That's hardly the same thing. As per theshoveller's point these bundles are aimed at those who don't know any better, taking advantage of their cluelessness. I find that reprehensible.
Do you, by any chance, make a career out of selling bridges to the credulous?

Mastodon
20-06-2013, 15:52
That's hardly the same thing. As per theshoveller's point these bundles are aimed at those who don't know any better, taking advantage of their cluelessness. I find that reprehensible.
Do you, by any chance, make a career out of selling bridges to the credulous?

You find it reprehensible that a shop sells things to people?

Again, explain your reasoning without using the phrase 'People expect discount in bundles.'

Confessor_Atol
20-06-2013, 16:03
Frankly, I dont think anyone should be angery Or feel insulted by one-click deals. The idea is another example of inept marketing at it's dumbest. Just a stupid, worthless idea.

EmperorNorton
20-06-2013, 16:04
You find it reprehensible that a shop sells things to people?
Yes, that was exactly my point. :rolleyes:


Again, explain your reasoning without using the phrase 'People expect discount in bundles.'
Why should I not use the phrase when it clearly is at the core of this entire discussion? People do expect discounts in bundles. Go ahead, ask the next ten people if they do. Heck, just look at the results of this poll. What a runaway success these 1-click collections are. Why ever could that be?

Mastodon
20-06-2013, 16:08
Yes, that was exactly my point. :rolleyes:


Why should I not use the phrase when it clearly is at the core of this entire discussion? People do expect discounts in bundles. Go ahead, ask the next ten people if they do. Heck, just look at the results of this poll. What a runaway success these 1-click collections are. Why ever could that be?

Because as stated, its not a bundle, its not called a bundle, its not described as a bundle and no, people do not always expect discounts in bundles. You might as well be getting angry that GW has a related products space on their webstore, because after all, its not offering a discount if you buy them together, so its reprehensible right?


And I maintain my point that a poll on a forum known web wide as a place for people sick of GW to congregate do not spend large amounts of money on Gw product. Shock horror hold the presses we've got a new front page.

Whitesun
20-06-2013, 16:19
Frankly, I dont think anyone should be angery Or feel insulted by one-click deals. The idea is another example of inept marketing at it's dumbest. Just a stupid, worthless idea.

Sounds about right. Not the greatest marketing strategy, and runs the risk of alienating and upsetting people by the perceived dishonesty behind it. Again, I must stress, it's the perception of GW being dishonest that would hurt their equity in the long run.

Konovalev
20-06-2013, 16:58
That's hardly the same thing. As per theshoveller's point these bundles are aimed at those who don't know any better, taking advantage of their cluelessness. I find that reprehensible.
Do you, by any chance, make a career out of selling bridges to the credulous?
It's exactly the same thing. Just because the given product or bundle doesn't interest you doesn't mean you should be insulted. GW isn't taking advantage of anyone with those bundles. Honestly some people in this forum go out of their way to take offence from anything and everything GW does.

xxRavenxx
20-06-2013, 19:11
I don't see the issue here.

GW are trying to tap into impulse buys. Those people/kids who look on their website and go "WOW! An eldar army, all ready to go, at the press of a button."

I bet a lot of kids have convinced a parent to get this as a birthday gift or similar.

Their "ignorance" to deep discounters is not a concern of games workshop...

stroller
20-06-2013, 21:27
I haven't bought a 1 click collection, but I see no harm in it. Nowhere does it say "discount". It does suggest convenience. Sure I can shop around, but - is the no-discount anger worth it?

Miredorf
20-06-2013, 22:12
I think these bundles are clearly oriented to parents and relatives looking to buy a gift to the kids.

ansible5
21-06-2013, 04:14
I must admit I bought the chaos daemons slaanesh one click bundle as although I didn't really need all of it it helped expand my army as I bothered yet to pick up the chariot or steeds.

tu33y
21-06-2013, 13:53
even though i have about a million tanks already a would smash down on the 10 tank box if it was re-released- ideally at its privious price point or there-abouts.

as for the new once-click bundles; maybe they are handy for mums and dads, i can really see it being good for them. although it might also be a barrier "im paying how much for that little lot?" whereas before the odd rhino a week went unquestioned...

Mastodon
21-06-2013, 14:43
even though i have about a million tanks already a would smash down on the 10 tank box if it was re-released- ideally at its privious price point or there-abouts.

as for the new once-click bundles; maybe they are handy for mums and dads, i can really see it being good for them. although it might also be a barrier "im paying how much for that little lot?" whereas before the odd rhino a week went unquestioned...

You dont understand just how much parents spend on their kids these days do you?

Its a regular thing for parents to spend 100-200 a MONTH on their kids in my shop, so you can imagine what birthdays are like.

shelfunit.
21-06-2013, 15:04
You dont understand just how much a very few, very rich parents spend on their kids these days do you?

Its a regular thing for a very few, very rich parents to spend 100-200 a MONTH on their kids in my shop, so you can imagine what birthdays are like.

Fixed for accuracy.

Nymie_the_Pooh
21-06-2013, 17:02
I stated earlier in the thread that I have not bought a one click bundle even though I have bought their bundles in the past. Some bundles of the past were available from independent retailers, but some were from Games Workshop at a discount or included a limited release model. The reason I have not purchased any of the new one click bundles is that if I am going to pay retail for something I am going to order it through my local game store instead of buying direct from Games Workshop. This isn't a slight against Games Workshop, but the way I see it they price their models to what they consider to be a fair profit when sold through another party. If I pay my local store that suggested retail value then Games Workshop receives the amount which they set themselves as fair and equitable while the local shop that provides me with a place to play remains open and can keep the lights on. If that costs me a few more days before I get the model (which it hasn't yet), then I am okay with that. I see it as paying my dues to the local store for the services it provides. The only time I have ever paid full retail directly to Games Workshop for anything was if the only way to get the item was from Games Workshop and I couldn't order it through the local store. That hasn't been the case with the one click bundles so far.

Mastodon
21-06-2013, 17:24
Its not very few Shelf Unit, the majority of my younger customers spend around 50-100 a month.

I guess its a symptom of GW's prices that I dont really have kids from poorer backgrounds buying anything, which is rather bad, but well, going to be honest, kids from those backgrounds arent that interested in wargaming in my experience.

shelfunit.
21-06-2013, 17:40
Its not very few Shelf Unit, the majority of my younger customers spend around 50-100 a month.

I guess its a symptom of GW's prices that I dont really have kids from poorer backgrounds buying anything, which is rather bad, but well, going to be honest, kids from those backgrounds arent that interested in wargaming in my experience.

I can only conclude that your shops catchment area is a highly affluent one then. The idea that this is a common scene (rather than an oddity) at GW/indie shops should strike horror into the GW bigshots as currently barely 120,000 little Timmys would need to spend this amount worldwide to acount for the entirety of GWs annual income...

Mastodon
22-06-2013, 07:15
I'm in the South of England, in a London commuter town. Theres a far higher proportion of upper income people in my area so I am probably an anomaly. But still, theres no such thing as 'pocket money' these days. Kids get bought things when they want them.

MiyamatoMusashi
22-06-2013, 10:05
I guess its a symptom of GW's prices that I dont really have kids from poorer backgrounds buying anything, which is rather bad, but well, going to be honest, kids from those backgrounds arent that interested in wargaming in my experience.

Um... really? Are you sure it isn't just something they looked at and went "pfffft, can't afford THAT" and switched off? Why wouldn't they be as interested in wargaming as anyone else? Besides, if they're not your usual customers, how do you know what they think?


I'm in the South of England, in a London commuter town. Theres a far higher proportion of upper income people in my area so I am probably an anomaly. But still, theres no such thing as 'pocket money' these days. Kids get bought things when they want them.

...rich kids with rich parents do, yes.

I really don't know where you think middle-income or poor parents find the money to buy little Timmy whatever he wants when they want it. Maybe they just do it because... uh... just because, and worry about paying the rent later? Unlikely. Pocket money very definitely still exists, and most kids don't get bought stuff when they want it... only the rich ones.

IJW
22-06-2013, 10:38
On the other hand, pocket money has gone up far far more than inflation, even more than GW's prices.

Kalidane
22-06-2013, 13:04
... Are you insulted that grocery stores sell baby formula because you are not a baby?

No.

Seeing a limited time offer for a package of 8 units of baby formula for the price of 8 units of baby formula would likely insult/offend me. It requires a large outlay of cash with no advantage over buying one lot a week.

Importman
22-06-2013, 14:04
Never even contemplated the one click internet bundle. Not in the past and probably never will.

However I did get one of those mega forces years ago at my LGS.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

ihavetoomuchminis
22-06-2013, 20:57
Why should i buy a bundle that offers me no incentive to buy it (no discount), when i can make my own bundle and get the same benefits? (saving some clicks isn't a benefit). These one click bundles are insulting. Like going to buy a car and been told by the seller who is offering no incentive to you and offering you the product HE wants you to buy "but...it's a tank!".

Bob Arctor
23-06-2013, 02:28
I agree that the one-click bundles are pretty pointless for the most people, although I did get the Daemon one myself. Sort of. I was planning to get all of the items anyway as I play Daemons in both systems and like to have all the options available. I had asked someone I knew who could get me a discount to put an order in for me, saying I wanted one of everything, and when he ordered it from GW he just used the "one of everything" option that was available to traders.

Would I use a one-click option in the future? Only if I was going to buy all that stuff anyway and could get some kind of discount on it. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with GW providing the option for lazy/avid collectors, its just going to be very rare that most of us would consider using the "one of everything" option, which I think the poll reflects accurately so far.

Laniston
23-06-2013, 05:49
I think the bundles have some cool names and they certainly present a themed force which can inspire collectors but I haven't and won't ever buy any of the 1-click bundles. My fingers can really use the exercise of multiple clicks. I don't want Games Workshop depriving me of the extra calorie burn.

Shadowheart
23-06-2013, 08:37
A one-click zero-discount bundle is silly, but concidering the products in question it's even sillier. Taking the mold lines off a single miniature is going to take more time than these "offers" save you. If you're that busy or impatient this really isn't the hobby for you.

I suppose they're more aimed at rich people buying gifts, although the one-day Iyanden bundle seems pointless even in that context.

lorelorn
23-06-2013, 08:47
I would assume they were primarily aimed at existing players looking to buy into a new army. It gives you the "stuff I was going to buy anyway" and assumes you know what all that stuff is in game terms, along with the convenience of a single click... I guess.

outbreak
24-06-2013, 03:48
I don't understand GW's thinking. The cover all for their crazy ideas are that their target market is not us and not the people who already play warhammer. But the BIG problem with that is how many people get into warhammer on their own? It's always a friend getting someone else into it. And the friend usually warns them not to buy from GW and shows them alternatives? Everyone I've gotten into the hobby I've shown how to get things cheaper. I was shown when I started.

MLP
24-06-2013, 04:21
I think GW have decided not to offer a deal on these one click deals anymore because they know that people who are a bit savvy will find 10-20% off anyway.

If they offer 20% off on a one click deal they know that online stores and ebayers will buy it, break it down and then sell them at a profit.

theshoveller
24-06-2013, 04:29
I don't understand GW's thinking. The cover all for their crazy ideas are that their target market is not us and not the people who already play warhammer. But the BIG problem with that is how many people get into warhammer on their own? It's always a friend getting someone else into it. And the friend usually warns them not to buy from GW and shows them alternatives? Everyone I've gotten into the hobby I've shown how to get things cheaper. I was shown when I started.
If I go into a Tesco Express in the city centre, I will pay on average 10% more than I would if I went to the Tesco next to the retail park. If I went online to do my shopping, I'd be faced with different offers and discounts than the first two options. Three arms of the same company, the same products, three different prices. This is a profitable strategy for them, else they wouldn't have been doing it for as long as they have.

Why does it work? Essentially, they're targeting three different kinds of shoppers, in three different environments. In every case, the money ends up in Tesco's coffers (and the actual effort on the company's part is minimal).

Now, how does GW target different kinds of consumer? 1-click bundles are essentially the high watermark of pricing, where you target the consumer who has no interest in negotiating the market (e.g. someone buying for someone else). This is like Tesco Express (where you pay the premium because it's the nearest shop to your workplace - you don't have time to negotiate the market). Veterans who know the market will buy at a discount from an online retailer/local games shop. GW doesn't mind this too much because they've still made a sale (albeit at the trade price, selling to the retailer at a smaller mark-up). Serious longbeards can't be reached like that - they've got all the miniatures they're ever likely to want - so you target them with different products (Space Hulk, campaign books etc) which you restrict the distribution of to the second/third party retailers, forcing the longbeards to buy direct from GW at maximum mark-up.

I mean, that's not the whole story, but it's a big part of it. You can see the same sort of logic throughout all retail. And we should never forget that a large part of GW is retail business, not games company or maker of toy soldiers (they're those things too, but their business model is a compromise between all three).

shelfunit.
24-06-2013, 07:43
I think GW have decided not to offer a deal on these one click deals anymore because they know that people who are a bit savvy will find 10-20% off anyway.

If they offer 20% off on a one click deal they know that online stores and ebayers will buy it, break it down and then sell them at a profit.

Why would online stores do it? They already get around 40%+ off retail with trade prices. 20% off retail (or more) is what a number of discount sites provide as standard anyway so there really is no incentive for anyone to do any of the things you suggest

GraemePaul
24-06-2013, 08:19
I think GW have decided not to offer a deal on these one click deals anymore because they know that people who are a bit savvy will find 10-20% off anyway.

If they offer 20% off on a one click deal they know that online stores and ebayers will buy it, break it down and then sell them at a profit.

I believe this view to be a fallacy. While it may have been true in the past (particularly with the Apocalypse boxed sets) considering how restrictive GW have become with their trade terms and the number of items no longer available to independents (direct only products) there is no reason not to offer a discount other than the motive to make the maximum profit the company can.

GW could quite easily limited purchases to 1 per website account (you should not need more than that) and sell far more units then they currently do bit they do not as they see this as devaluing their own product.

MLP
24-06-2013, 11:34
I believe this view to be a fallacy. While it may have been true in the past (particularly with the Apocalypse boxed sets) considering how restrictive GW have become with their trade terms and the number of items no longer available to independents (direct only products) there is no reason not to offer a discount other than the motive to make the maximum profit the company can.

GW could quite easily limited purchases to 1 per website account (you should not need more than that) and sell far more units then they currently do bit they do not as they see this as devaluing their own product.

That makes sense, I guess I'm just trying to find a reasonable reason why they wouldn't discount on such a big bundle...

Wintermute
24-06-2013, 13:22
That makes sense, I guess I'm just trying to find a reasonable reason why they wouldn't discount on such a big bundle...

Simple, GW do not discount and pride themselves on this fact to their shareholders as can be seen in the last paragraph of this (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/chairmans-statement-final.pdf) Chairman's Preamble to the 2011-2012 Annual Report.

Konovalev
24-06-2013, 18:51
It requires a large outlay of cash with no advantage over buying one lot a week.

You can make 1 trip to the store rather 1 trip per week.
You are feeding 8 kids.
One 8-pack of formula is easier to carry than 8 singles(obviously assuming you were in for multiple units of formula to begin with).

There's a few advantages right there. Do you drink soda by the way? or perhaps tea? Do you buy a single can/bag of soda/tea or multiple? Surely you only buy singles as needed because the idea of the large cash outlay for a pack of soda or a box of tea bags/leaves insults you yes?

Now before the dogs are loosed upon me, I'm not advocating people buy 1-click bundles. Just that they not be so comically sensitive that the mere offering of said bundle insults them.

effbomber
24-06-2013, 20:11
Wow. Literally all the things you mentioned there are cheaper in bulk.

Couldn't you have at least found an example that didn't make other people's points for them?

Konovalev
24-06-2013, 20:23
Wow. Literally all the things you mentioned there are cheaper in bulk.

Couldn't you have at least found an example that didn't make other people's points for them?
Really? Because I've seen tea and soda priced for individual sale to match buying a pack. But if the reason people are insulted is because they are not receiving a discount on something for which there is no discount advertised, and therefore they should not expect one, there's only 1 word for that: Ignorance.

effbomber
24-06-2013, 20:29
Really? Because I've seen tea and soda priced for individual sale to match buying a pack. But if the reason people are insulted is because they are not receiving a discount on something for which there is no discount advertised, and therefore they should not expect one, there's only 1 word for that: Ignorance.

Nah dude, I think people are insulted because of the unpleasant aroma of inherent dishonesty involved in mailing people about a short term offer and hoping a load of them are too thick to notice there's no saving involved.

I think people are mostly amused and exasperated about the lack of discount, rather than offended, because one thing they have in common is none if them are quite that thick.

Kalidane
24-06-2013, 20:40
Really? Because I've seen tea and soda priced for individual sale to match buying a pack. But if the reason people are insulted is because they are not receiving a discount on something for which there is no discount advertised, and therefore they should not expect one, there's only 1 word for that: Ignorance.

I'm not sure that it's about expecting a discount on such a purchase; it's knowing that at times there will be a discount and that's when I'll look at buying the large quantity. The fact that I can pay too much doesn't mean I must. When something boring but needed like soap is priced high I'll buy one. When the 4 pack is nice and cheap I'll buy one or two multipacks. I'm never going to buy the 4 pack at 4x the single price.

People paying a lot more than they need to for the immediacy or a small convenience factor appear to be the ignorant ones. Almost literally setting fire to money is seldom the right plan.

General Veers
24-06-2013, 20:54
Konovalev I don't know where you are but it doesn't work that way in the USA. If multiple items in bulk or a group or a bundle or whatever it had better be at a discount. US consumers are on to the "price per unit scam." Not everyone of course but enough. I could care less about tea but I know a single can of Coke sure as hell is more expensive than a 12 pack of coke when that pack is broken out individually.

Herzlos
24-06-2013, 21:01
You can make 1 trip to the store rather 1 trip per week.
You are feeding 8 kids.
One 8-pack of formula is easier to carry than 8 singles(obviously assuming you were in for multiple units of formula to begin with).

There's a few advantages right there. Do you drink soda by the way? or perhaps tea? Do you buy a single can/bag of soda/tea or multiple? Surely you only buy singles as needed because the idea of the large cash outlay for a pack of soda or a box of tea bags/leaves insults you yes?

Now before the dogs are loosed upon me, I'm not advocating people buy 1-click bundles. Just that they not be so comically sensitive that the mere offering of said bundle insults them.

All of those things you've mentioned are the sorts of things bulk packs are good for; things that people go through quickly. It's cheaper to buy a 24 pack of sodas in one trip, even assuming no discount, than making 24 trips. Ditto the baby formula. They are also in the price bracket that buying many at once is no big deal (24 pack of soda is what, $10?)

For luxury hobby goods like miniatures and kits which may require many hours of prep, assembly and painting, the same advantage doesn't exist; you're unlikely to be getting through the stuff quickly enough to make lots of repeat trips within the same pay cycle. They are also expensive enough that a 1-click bundle probably runs to many months of hobby budget. So for many to get the bundle they need to save up instead of buying it piecemeal, and with the zero discount bundles there's no incentive for the splash purchasing.

Chivs
24-06-2013, 21:08
People have given justifiable reasons for why one click collections exist, even without discount. Depending on your (healthy) cynicism levels, you might accept these as the reasons why the collections were created, whether they exist to trick naive parents into thinking they're getting a discount, or somewhere in between.

Can those who have justified the One Click Collections justify the most recent Iyanden one being advertised as 24 hour only? Because I can't see any reason why this would be the case apart from to panic people into buying something thinking that otherwise they'll miss out on an offer. Surely that is the only reason to advertise something like this as limited edition?
There isn't limited stock (like the Limited Ed Codices) as this is a collection of boxes for massed sale.
There isn't any reduction in price, or extra bonus for purchasing.
There aren't excessive resources being tied up in offering this product that could be better placed elsewhere.

Please justify to me how this can be a worthwhile thing for the company or consumer, and not a 'con'?

Angelwing
25-06-2013, 00:45
Simple, GW do not discount and pride themselves on this fact to their shareholders as can be seen in the last paragraph of this (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/chairmans-statement-final.pdf) Chairman's Preamble to the 2011-2012 Annual Report.

I guess the GW staffer discount of 50% (or whatever it is these days) is a perk, not a discount. Unless Mr Kirby was specifically talking about discounts on alcohol in Bugmans bar.
Mr Kirby must have changed his tune this year as we have the discounted 40k bikes to choose from.

theshoveller
25-06-2013, 10:53
I guess the GW staffer discount of 50% (or whatever it is these days) is a perk, not a discount. Unless Mr Kirby was specifically talking about discounts on alcohol in Bugmans bar.
Mr Kirby must have changed his tune this year as we have the discounted 40k bikes to choose from.
GW staff are essentially buying at trade price, so no, it's not really a discount. It's also meaningless in terms of discussing retail policy with shareholders.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but haven't the bikes been repackaged into a better value item, rather than being discounted? In retail terms, it's a different product (yes, I can see how that seems like sophistry but frankly, a lot of retail strategy is).

Mastodon
25-06-2013, 10:55
GW staff are essentially buying at trade price, so no, it's not really a discount. It's also meaningless in terms of discussing retail policy with shareholders.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but haven't the bikes been repackaged into a better value item, rather than being discounted? In retail terms, it's a different product (yes, I can see how that seems like sophistry but frankly, a lot of retail strategy is).

You are correct that there is a box of 3 available that saves some money from buying them individually yes. The single ones are still available too at the old price.

Konovalev
25-06-2013, 14:31
Please justify to me how this can be a worthwhile thing for the company or consumer, and not a 'con'?
You said yourself these items are not limited. So who is being conned? Buying that bundle would be no different than buying each item individually.

Chivs
25-06-2013, 16:41
You said yourself these items are not limited. So who is being conned? Buying that bundle would be no different than buying each item individually.

It is a cynical viewpoint to look at these as simply ways to trick consumers into thinking they're getting a deal. The reason 'Con' is in quote marks, as there isn't anything illegal in what they're doing. They're not saying there is a discount. Some people, myself included, think that they are relying in part on customers filling in a blank, and believing that they're getting a discount when they're not. Depending on your level of cynicism towards GW, this can be a minor or major thing.

But what advantage is there to this deal being limited? The only reason I can see to do this, is to rely on those customers filling in the blanks. Putting a time constraint on it may rush some people into buying it not realising that there is no discount. Fair enough, that may be the consumers own fault if they want to place a large order without fully checking it out. But if there is no legitimate reason for this deal to be limited (which is what I've asked you posters to provide), then all I can see is that limiting this bundle is designed to catch unwary people thinking they're getting a deal, or afraid that they'll miss one if they don't get it now.
People who do that won't get any sympathy from me - you must have a vastly higher income than I do if you can drop a couple of hundred pounds spur of the moment without checking it out. But it's making this company look very shady, and let's face it Games Workshop have enough image problems already!

Konovalev
25-06-2013, 20:00
it's making this company look very shady
So you would also consider any and all items priced at 99cents a con as well? I'm not familar with UK pricing, but here in America it is common practice to sell something at say $29.99 rather than $30. Likewise petrol costs end with 9/10's a cent which doesn't even seem like a valid price considering there is no lower denomination in circulation in the US below 1 cent.

Because it's exactly the same. You can't say the limited time bundle is a con and a shady practice but 9/10's of a cent and $29.99 isn't. However you feel of one applies to the other. In America at least, this means virtually all organizations that sell something are shady and rely on cons, and further still. Even small family owned businesses do this, so you can't simply blame it on "big evil corporations".

Herzlos
25-06-2013, 20:28
the .99c thing is common round the world and definitely aimed at making something look cheaper and do allow "all X under Y" type advertising, and yes it's a bit shady but not on the same level as no-discount bundles.

Mastodon
25-06-2013, 20:45
the .99c thing is common round the world and definitely aimed at making something look cheaper and do allow "all X under Y" type advertising, and yes it's a bit shady but not on the same level as no-discount bundles.

Once again, they're not bundles. And once again, not all bundles have a discount.

Herzlos
25-06-2013, 21:35
Indeed, it's a collection. But can you explain why it could only be available for a limited period?

Dr Zoidberg
25-06-2013, 23:43
Simple, GW do not discount and pride themselves on this fact to their shareholders as can be seen in the last paragraph of this (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/chairmans-statement-final.pdf) Chairman's Preamble to the 2011-2012 Annual Report.

I found this interesting in the same preamble:


Short-termism is one of the evils of modern society. More shareholder value is destroyed by managers making dumb shortterm decisions to enable them to produce glowing quarterly reports than ever is gained in the laughably inappropriately named ‘transparency‘ they are supposed to bring.

Irony, thy name is Tom Kirby.


Once again, they're not bundles.

Apart from the fact, you know, that GW itself calls them 'One click bundles'.

Kalidane
26-06-2013, 06:00
People have given justifiable reasons for why one click collections exist, even without discount. Depending on your (healthy) cynicism levels, you might accept these as the reasons why the collections were created, whether they exist to trick naive parents into thinking they're getting a discount, or somewhere in between.

Can those who have justified the One Click Collections justify the most recent Iyanden one being advertised as 24 hour only? Because I can't see any reason why this would be the case apart from to panic people into buying something thinking that otherwise they'll miss out on an offer. Surely that is the only reason to advertise something like this as limited edition?
There isn't limited stock (like the Limited Ed Codices) as this is a collection of boxes for massed sale.
There isn't any reduction in price, or extra bonus for purchasing.
There aren't excessive resources being tied up in offering this product that could be better placed elsewhere.

Please justify to me how this can be a worthwhile thing for the company or consumer, and not a 'con'?

I think you understand it correctly.

False scarcity. 'Buy today or miss out - there's no time to think about it!'. It is pathetic that by waiting one day you can buy the exact same pile of stuff for the exact same price. This really isn't targeted at people here.

The cost here was something like 8-10 weeks rent so yeah lulz were had

SleeplessKnight
26-06-2013, 09:32
Does anyone know if any other company out there that does this?

If not, or even if they do, maybe a news agency or BBB can be approached regarding this subject of no savings bundles from all the companies that try to pull this zero saving bundle business. The only way companies will stop offering zero savings bundles is to have public outcry over it. And lets face it, we're not the public. We're a small handful of people on a forum that nobody cares about and what we say on here means diddley squat.

Anybody know any journalists that can get this on television? It'd be a great piece to put on tv during something like X-mas time to show people how companies try to take advantage of them.

MiyamatoMusashi
26-06-2013, 10:16
This really isn't targeted at people here.

People keep saying this, but nobody has adequately explained who it is targeted at.

The best we have so far is "little Timmy's rich parents, who don't know what he wants but it's his birthday in a week, and they need to spend £400 on his present today and can't wait until tomorrow, but are afraid to simply ask him what he'd like, and are on the GW mailing list, and don't like clicking mouse buttons too often".

Is that really sufficiently large a demographic to be worth targeting? Or to rephrase: are the one or two people who (so we suppose) might go for it, worth the loss of respect from people who feel like GW are trying to trick them into buying a "limited time" "collection" now in the hope of an assumed discount that isn't there?

Mastodon
26-06-2013, 10:20
If one person buys it, its worth it.

And to be honest, the people getting morally outraged/offended/disgusted and decrying gw for 'lying to the public' on here dont exactly seem to be GW's biggest fans anyway, so it really doesnt seem to matter.

Herzlos
26-06-2013, 10:34
If one person buys it, its worth it.

Probably not. Once you've factored in the costs and bureaucracy for designing, approving and adding this to the website, it's probably eliminated the profit from a few of these, and they either seem to be working well enough to keep doing or they are wasting money on them in the hopes that they'll start profiting. But it's hard to judge how profitable they'd be, as presumably almost anyone buying any of these things would have bought some of the components anyway.


And to be honest, the people getting morally outraged/offended/disgusted and decrying gw for 'lying to the public' on here dont exactly seem to be GW's biggest fans anyway, so it really doesnt seem to matter.

Some of them are pretty big GW fans who just don't like what they've become. There are very few actual haters here, and these are quite likely the demographic that wants to like GW, otherwise they just wouldn't post.

I'm a fairly vocal GW critic, because so much of what they seem to do now is just baffling, but I'm also a fairly big fan even if I've largely been priced out of new stuff.


Anyway, one can still be a fan of GW and find things like this either cynical or just baffling.

Chaos and Evil
26-06-2013, 10:53
I don't really get why you'd buy a 1-click bundle rather than buying the same thing for cheaper from a 3rd-party retailer.
Could someone fill me in on why you'd do it?

shelfunit.
26-06-2013, 10:58
I don't really get why you'd buy a 1-click bundle rather than buying the same thing for cheaper from a 3rd-party retailer.
Could someone fill me in on why you'd do it?

A self damaging sense of misplaced "loyalty"?

MiyamatoMusashi
26-06-2013, 11:20
If one person buys it, its worth it.

So... hypothetically speaking (we don't know the numbers)... one £400 sale would always be worth losing another customer over? What about ten customers? A thousand? A million?

Now, obviously GW aren't losing a million customers over this. Maybe they're not losing any customers over this at all, I don't know, and neither do you (though they're provably haemorrhaging customers over something). It just baffles me that you would make the claim that one sale is always going to be "worth it". And you run a shop!? Can you honestly, truly, genuinely not conceive of a situation (even if not this situation) where one sale is worth more than N lost sales, where N is indeterminate and possibly large? If so, that's quite extraordinary.

IJW
26-06-2013, 12:01
Even without losing any sales it's not automatic that a single sale would be worth it. As Herzlos points out, there is an additional cost for GW in putting together the bundle in the first place which is only going to be covered if enough people buy more items through the bundle than they would have done separately.

MLP
26-06-2013, 12:11
Even without losing any sales it's not automatic that a single sale would be worth it. As Herzlos points out, there is an additional cost for GW in putting together the bundle in the first place which is only going to be covered if enough people buy more items through the bundle than they would have done separately.

I can't see it costing so much really. I mean all the bundle is is a group of items which are already available to buy. The bundle is the same as buying all of them separate on the same order when it comes to packaging/delivery. And the costs of putting it on the website and sending an email will be negligible as they would likely have a dedicate web team already being paid anyway. There's really no way a company this size should have to pay much to put out a bundle like this.

IJW
26-06-2013, 12:24
I'm not saying it costs them a lot, but it's non-zero. GW have a dedicated web team, but it's still time being allocated to the bundles that's not being allocated to other tasks.

Memnos
26-06-2013, 12:27
I might buy a one-click bundle, if I saw an army that I really liked the concept of.

Things like the "Whole Space Marine company" bundle they sold a few years ago? I was tempted by, simply because it's a project, and at the end I could say I owned an entire Space Marine company.

Admittedly, I didn't because my ability to control my urges exceeds my desire to spend a grand on miniatures that would take me forever to paint, but I admit the urge.

I could see the same for the Hive Fleet Leviathan one click bundle, etc. I bet there are always a few who purchase.

Herzlos
26-06-2013, 12:44
I can't see it costing so much really. I mean all the bundle is is a group of items which are already available to buy. The bundle is the same as buying all of them separate on the same order when it comes to packaging/delivery. And the costs of putting it on the website and sending an email will be negligible as they would likely have a dedicate web team already being paid anyway. There's really no way a company this size should have to pay much to put out a bundle like this.

Have you ever worked at a big company? It'd take us (a tech company) about a week to put something up on the website after going through various departments.

Offhand, you'll have the time spent coming up with the concept and contents of the bundle + at least 1 level of approval for it, then the time spend getting a designer to make the graphics for it and the banner, for an SKU to be created for it, for it to be actually set up and put on the site (at least 1 level of approval there), along with the updated front page and then the cost of the mailshot.

None of that is massively expensive, but it's probably a good few hours of staff time which could easily run into hundreds of pounds. Then there may be costs associated with the mailing system. It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it could easily be more than the gain from running these things if there was only a handful of additional sales.

Of course, it could be that they've got marketing, design and web staff sitting idle, in which case there's no lost opportunity cost (i.e. time they should have spent doing something better) and it may therefore work out to be essentially free. But with all the fat cutting I'd be surprised if they have many idle staff left.

Mastodon
26-06-2013, 13:18
So... hypothetically speaking (we don't know the numbers)... one £400 sale would always be worth losing another customer over? What about ten customers? A thousand? A million?

Now, obviously GW aren't losing a million customers over this. Maybe they're not losing any customers over this at all, I don't know, and neither do you (though they're provably haemorrhaging customers over something). It just baffles me that you would make the claim that one sale is always going to be "worth it". And you run a shop!? Can you honestly, truly, genuinely not conceive of a situation (even if not this situation) where one sale is worth more than N lost sales, where N is indeterminate and possibly large? If so, that's quite extraordinary.

I make the claim because I can make a valid guess that the people getting offended by GW's evil one click collections have already ceased buying GW products a long time ago.

And also, I run a shop yes. What GW have done is exactly the same as me putting a few items together on a table at the front of my store and putting the price of all the items together in front of it. I'm pretty sure none of my customers would come up to me and say they're outraged at my evil business practice and how I should be ashamed of myself.

Thats why I think these things are harmless.

EmperorNorton
26-06-2013, 13:25
And also, I run a shop yes. What GW have done is exactly the same as me putting a few items together on a table at the front of my store and putting the price of all the items together in front of it. I'm pretty sure none of my customers would come up to me and say they're outraged at my evil business practice and how I should be ashamed of myself.
How often have you placed a collection of items totalling upwards of 400 quid on a table and made clear to your customers that this collection would only be available for 24 hours?
What positive effect has this practice had on your business?

MiyamatoMusashi
26-06-2013, 13:26
What GW have done is exactly the same as me putting a few items together on a table at the front of my store and putting the price of all the items together in front of it.

Not really. It's more like if you also put up a big sign next to the price saying "AVAILABLE FOR 24 HOURS ONLY!!!!!", and the next day took away just that sign.

You're sure not one of your customers would think "WTF, why was he lying about it only being available for 24 hours?" Because I would wonder that. Same as I get annoyed by the sports shop in our high street that's had "CLOSING DOWN SALE! EVERYTHING MUST GO!" signs up for the last fourteen years. I shopped there once, when I first saw it; then I realised I wasn't getting a bargain, I was being conned, so I've never been back in.

But hey, at least they got that one sale from me, right? That totally makes up for the next thirteen-years-and-51-weeks of refusing to shop there.

Mastodon
26-06-2013, 13:35
How often have you placed a collection of items totalling upwards of 400 quid on a table and made clear to your customers that this collection would only be available for 24 hours?
What positive effect has this practice had on your business?

ONE, 24 hour thing is not all of them, but feel free to allow that to cloud every point you make. This is a thread about EVERY one click collection, not just one random mid week thing that I cant understand myself.

I routinely throw Codex+Battleforce+new thing at the front of my shop and get good results from doing that. I guess the people that are buying it are choking back their anger when they realise they could have walked 10 more feet and grabbed it themselves separately.

shelfunit.
26-06-2013, 15:06
I routinely throw Codex+Battleforce+new thing at the front of my shop and get good results from doing that. I guess the people that are buying it are choking back their anger when they realise they could have walked 10 more feet and grabbed it themselves separately.

Well, you do offer 10% off of GW stuff, so "technically" your bundle is at a discount :p

On the main topic though, I'm not "offended" by these bundles. The emails can be irritating , but in the end it's all rather amusing seeing just how little you can now get from GW for such a vast outlay of cash.

6mmhero
26-06-2013, 16:48
From what I have heard the one click bundles have been working, hence why they have been doing them for every release. This is from a reliable source so no reason to disbelieve it. How well I wasn't told but well enough to warrant a mention.
I know some people who will go in to their local GW on when pre-releases go up and do a one click as it has all the new shiny toys they were going to get anyhow. They don't buy from a discounter because they make use of the local store and want to support it.

The only one click I have brought is the 40K rulebook one and only then as I was splitting it with a friend. I got a nice reward when that came through the post with all the little freebies in there (mug, postcards etc).

It would be nice if there was a saving on the bundles but lets face it this is GW we are talking about. The Iyandan one click deal gave me a chuckle when I actually saw there was no saving. I had assumed that it was going to be a limited time bundle with a saving hence the reason for being limited time.

Mastodon
26-06-2013, 18:28
For those of you that love these one click collections get ready because theres going to be over 100 of them popping up on Saturday. Every single apocalypse formation from the new book will be one clickable.

With no discount.

shelfunit.
26-06-2013, 19:43
For those of you that love these one click collections get ready because theres going to be over 100 of them popping up on Saturday. Every single apocalypse formation from the new book will be one clickable.

With no discount.

Looks like I might need an umbrella then for the heads exploding? :p

Herzlos
26-06-2013, 21:01
For those of you that love these one click collections get ready because theres going to be over 100 of them popping up on Saturday. Every single apocalypse formation from the new book will be one clickable.

With no discount.

I guess that answers the question "Will there be any apocalypse deals like last time?" pretty conclusively.

Chivs
26-06-2013, 21:18
For those of you that love these one click collections get ready because there's going to be over 100 of them popping up on Saturday. Every single apocalypse formation from the new book will be one clickable.

With no discount.

I think this is a more appropriate use of these collections; customers can search through a folder of Apocalypse formation for the one they are looking for. "I'd like an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company", look in Apocalypse folder, find Emperor's Wrath Artillery company. While not essential, it is helpful. It's not that different than selling it in a single box, only without the need to create more packaging. For most other companies a discount would be the norm, but "Games Workshop don't do discounts."

The 'All our new releases' collections don't really have the same themed approach most of the time, at least to me. They're rarely full armies. Collections like the "Legion of the Damned" are appropriate - it's the ridiculous price for so few models that makes it a daft idea.

Presumably none of these Apocalypse formations will be advertised as 24 hours only. The reason this bit keeps on being mentioned is that it appears to be truly indefensible (including by yourself). The only defence made for it was a truly laughable comparison to selling at £1.99 instead of £2. No one has provided a reason why a company would do it apart from to trick people.

Mastodon
26-06-2013, 21:50
I believe that while they may not be always on the website, they'll be there for a good long while.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-06-2013, 23:09
Simple, GW do not discount and pride themselves on this fact to their shareholders as can be seen in the last paragraph of this (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/chairmans-statement-final.pdf) Chairman's Preamble to the 2011-2012 Annual Report.

They dont do discounts on their product, apart from staff discounts........

Mastodon
27-06-2013, 00:29
Staff dont get discount, they just buy at trade price.

shelfunit.
27-06-2013, 07:18
Staff dont get discount, they just buy at trade price.

I thought (at least the last time I talked to a staffer) it was 50% off? Do trade prices swing that low?

Trustey
27-06-2013, 07:32
The one click "deals" are proof Games Workshop regards it's customers as complete simpletons ready to be fleeced. It's insulting. I go out of my way to never buy from GW direct. Most of their products are available from deep discounters like miniaturemarket.com and thewarstore.com for much less, who in the hell falls for this garbage? They should fire the jackass who thought of one-click and use his paycheck to give customers actual discounts.

MiyamatoMusashi
27-06-2013, 08:35
I thought (at least the last time I talked to a staffer) it was 50% off? Do trade prices swing that low?

50%, yes; which used to be an awesome discount, now it's just about where the prices should be IMO. Before that it was by weight, which varied by model obviously, but was in the region of 90% off RRP. Still, as we used to say, "you can't eat toy soldiers" so I know a fair few staff who'd rather have less of a discount but a better salary.

Staff incentives are hardly something to consider as part of "sales strategy" though. They're expressly forbidden from selling stuff on, so it's not like they can open their own store to undercut trade margins, and the sales they do make are a tiny drop in the ocean of the overall turnover.

6mmhero
28-06-2013, 12:39
The one click "deals" are proof Games Workshop regards it's customers as complete simpletons ready to be fleeced. It's insulting. I go out of my way to never buy from GW direct. Most of their products are available from deep discounters like miniaturemarket.com and thewarstore.com for much less, who in the hell falls for this garbage? They should fire the jackass who thought of one-click and use his paycheck to give customers actual discounts.

When I was in the states and looking at camera's Best Buy had bundles that saved you nothing at all. But like the GW bundles where handy to pick up if you were going to get everything any how. just llike GW the stuff was cheaper online or elsewhere.

I don't get the outrage over the one click bundles I really don't. They don't advertise them as savings or deals just one click bundles. Now the 24 hour one made me laugh and scratch my head as to why it was limited time. But I guess we will not know. Although there is a vague and I mean vague chance that they will have some promo stuff in that bundles such as postcards and or artwork etc just like the 40K bundle of Gamers and Collectors last year.


Staff discount is 50% still.

Chapters Unwritten
28-06-2013, 14:09
The problem with the second but does isn't the deals themselves, it is the context. We KNOW they are doing it as a con, in context of all their other actions. It's upsetting to know the guy you are dealing with is ******** you, especially after you paid his paychecks for a decade or two.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Laniston
28-06-2013, 16:43
I was just thinking about last Christmas' Army boxes/megaforces which as advertised were pretty great value. My wife got me the Necron box for Christmas and there was a pretty significant discount for getting the megaforce instead of each thing separately.

The point is that sometimes GW does produce bundled things that actually do save you quite a bit off their regular retail which makes these 1-click bundles all the more frustrating.

Herzlos
28-06-2013, 17:04
Yup, before the 1-click bundles the GW bundles contained discounts, which I think it the cause for part of the annoyance.

Mastodon
28-06-2013, 20:48
Which is why they arent called bundles...

Herzlos
29-06-2013, 08:48
But thinks like Battalion boxes and bike boxes aren't called bundles either and they come with a discount.

Calling them "Collections" doesn't change anything. They can call it them one-click-waterbison and it still won't stop customers viewing them as bundles.

It's a selection of things packed together, customers will call that a bundle.

Tarax
29-06-2013, 09:32
The bundles are directed at the collectors and perhapst the starters of that army. They often include only the latest models of that army and the new codex/army book.
Those of us who already have an army may often not need or want every new model. And thus it feels like a con to them.
But for those of us who want every new item for an army can appreciate it. It saves you some time from searching all the items in alle the categories. Though they will all appear in the New Release section.

Herzlos
29-06-2013, 13:34
The bundles are directed at the collectors and perhapst the starters of that army. They often include only the latest models of that army and the new codex/army book.
Those of us who already have an army may often not need or want every new model. And thus it feels like a con to them.
But for those of us who want every new item for an army can appreciate it. It saves you some time from searching all the items in alle the categories. Though they will all appear in the New Release section.

But since these 'collections' come with the rule books, that'd imply that the target buyer doesn't already have the rules. So that'd mean they are buying 1-each of the new stuff without having any idea of what they can actually use or how they'll play.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I'd want to see the rules for stuff I'm buying to see if I'd want to field them, or that I can field them in my list. If a 'collection' comes with 4 units taking up Heavy Support slots, and I'm only allowed 3, I'd be pretty pissed if I'd only discovered after the fact. Same if it turns out the army provided in the collection isn't actually legal (in a rules sense) for whatever reason.

Friedrich von Offenbach
29-06-2013, 23:01
I think this is a more appropriate use of these collections; customers can search through a folder of Apocalypse formation for the one they are looking for. "I'd like an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company", look in Apocalypse folder, find Emperor's Wrath Artillery company. While not essential, it is helpful. It's not that different than selling it in a single box, only without the need to create more packaging. For most other companies a discount would be the norm, but "Games Workshop don't do discounts."


Actually GW do do discounts. Battlesforces/battalion boxes, megaforces and arguably starter sets are proof of this. Last apocolypse they released the formations in boxes with discounts similar to the battleforce boxes, so why not now given that they still have battleforces at a discount? Furthermore they recently released new boxes of 3 bikes, warwalkers, etc with a discount, so following that it would then be logical to sell 3 leman russ or 10 basilisks at a similar discount.

RedSarge
30-06-2013, 07:01
No, I HAVE NOT! There's not fricking savings! None! I had a look over the new pre-orders to just take a glance at a game I have invested myself in for over ten years, so I figured hey don't buy GW no more but I want to look.

All the bundles are RETAIL, that's not a bundle. If you're to lazy to click the separate items into your cart, then once you get your models they'll probably stay in the box, really. And if you are buying a gift for a friend or relative.. An XBOX ONE, PS4, Tablet, Bike, Skateboard(s), Surfboard, Couch, Spinny Chair, Airsoft, Skii's, used monster truck tire, heck a flatscreen TV are all similar prices ranges. Some providing INSTANT gratification and even *gasp* outdoor exercise!!>@>@#

This looks GRIM-DARK, pretty sure 40k will only live in our personal collections.

PS: Sad Martyrs Eagle is sad. Saddest eagle that ever was forced to shoot a gun at enemies.

PPS: Previous bundles I liked -> Basilisk Battery, Whirlwind Suppression, Vindicator Triple, Emperors Fist [discounted], Masters of The Chapter [4 metals! Woo-who!], Half-Possessed/Half Spawn [cool idea]

Shyvax
30-06-2013, 10:31
it is almost insulting to give us the 'option' to buy 10 items, .... for the price of 10. actually it is insulting, not almost.

Tarax
30-06-2013, 10:41
Actually GW do do discounts. Battlesforces/battalion boxes, megaforces and arguably starter sets are proof of this.

Yeah, and just look at these High Elf Spearmen, I get 4 sprues in a box. But wait, I also get shields with them. But that's not all, I also get bases!
Reducio ad absurdum.

Maybe the Megasets are at a discount, but the others are just regular products.


Last apocolypse they released the formations in boxes with discounts similar to the battleforce boxes, so why not now given that they still have battleforces at a discount?

IIRC the Apocalypse Formations were special issue sprues and whatnot. I wouldn't call them a regular discount, as you couldn't gat them sperately. I believe I had someone say that you'd get parts of 3 Leman Russes on one sprue.


Furthermore they recently released new boxes of 3 bikes, warwalkers, etc with a discount, so following that it would then be logical to sell 3 leman russ or 10 basilisks at a similar discount.

Again, not a discount, but a regular product. That you can get those models individually is just to let you have the odd model that you needed, without buying 3 of them, but only needing 1.

KingNic
30-06-2013, 11:32
IIRC the Apocalypse Formations were special issue sprues and whatnot. I wouldn't call them a regular discount, as you couldn't gat them sperately. I believe I had someone say that you'd get parts of 3 Leman Russes on one sprue.
They were lying. The Apocalypse formations were the same sprues as buying the different items separately, but with a significant discount. They sometimes included the Squadron Command Frame (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440335a&prodId=prod770023a) but that was the only thing unique to the Apocalypse formations.

The bearded one
30-06-2013, 17:59
The results of the poll made me laugh and wheeze.

SimaoSegunda
30-06-2013, 19:37
I haven't bought a 1-click bundle yet, HOWEVER, when the next Orc and Goblin book comes out, if there is a 1-click bundle comprising the book, cards, and any new kits, I will buy it.

soullessginger
01-07-2013, 09:15
Long time reader, first time poster. The one click deals have gotten even better. You can now pay GBP 16 for the pleasure of only clicking one button. The Eldar Windrider host is Individually GBP 194, one click bundle GBP 210. What a deal. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1090020a&prodId=prod2090080a

Mastodon
01-07-2013, 21:56
Long time reader, first time poster. The one click deals have gotten even better. You can now pay GBP 16 for the pleasure of only clicking one button. The Eldar Windrider host is Individually GBP 194, one click bundle GBP 210. What a deal. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1090020a&prodId=prod2090080a

Seems to add up correctly to me. 6 Vypers come to £111. 4 Jetbike Squadrons come to £80. Extra Jetbike for the Autarch is £8 and the Upgrade sprue is £11. Comes to £210.

I thought the bundles of Vypers were still available, but it looks like they were either a 'while stocks last' item or they've been removed completely.

Merqu
02-07-2013, 18:38
I don't get the hate for the bundles... It does not mention anywhere that they are discounted/offer financial savings/bulk offers or what ever... They are just pre selected items grouped together for your convenience... Hell has anyone ever shopped on Amazon.... They have petty much the same thing called 'frequently brought together'. It's the exact same thing. I was slightly disturbed that they had the Xbox One and PS4 as one just E3 mind.

Now whether the content of the bundles is any good, that's a different kettle of fish. I'd love for them to do starter armies (codex, battle force or 2, HQ, and one or 2 other things) could easily list it as an 'army for £xxx' or thematic ones.

jack da greenskin
02-07-2013, 20:24
I have a feeling the bundles were introduced to get people used to the idea of paying full retail for several models, and not expecting a discount, in time for apocalypse.

Then again, that requires too much planning. Never attribute malice to GW when it can be explained by stupidity.

ColShaw
02-07-2013, 21:14
I bought my first WFB army as an army deal.

Of course, that had a discount over getting the parts individually. And it wasn't on the Internet (it was an order made through my FLGS). And it was in 1998.

So, yeah... totally different situation. But I did do it...

Caiphas Cain
02-07-2013, 23:16
The results of the poll made me laugh and wheeze.

Me too. I can't believe someone bought one. :wtf:

Scaryscarymushroom
03-07-2013, 15:20
So I just threw a whole bunch of stuff in an online shopping cart on GW's site to verify that the price of a 1-click bundle matched up.

And you know what? All that clicking was really annoying. Every time you add something to your cart it scrolls up to the top of the page, so you need to scroll back down again. For a bundle with 15 different items, that's fifteen times you need to go from the top of the page down to whatever you want to add...

If I were made of money, and if I were not upset with GW legal, I would be grateful for 1-click bundles. But only because their website is not designed well.

Mastodon
03-07-2013, 18:08
So I just threw a whole bunch of stuff in an online shopping cart on GW's site to verify that the price of a 1-click bundle matched up.

And you know what? All that clicking was really annoying. Every time you add something to your cart it scrolls up to the top of the page, so you need to scroll back down again. For a bundle with 15 different items, that's fifteen times you need to go from the top of the page down to whatever you want to add...

If I were made of money, and if I were not upset with GW legal, I would be grateful for 1-click bundles. But only because their website is not designed well.

It actually makes more sense for the apoclypse formations, considering some of them are made up of multiple different sections of the website too. Creeds formation means you have to go into the scenery section after adding in his platoon etc.

Scaryscarymushroom
03-07-2013, 20:03
It actually makes more sense for the apoclypse formations, considering some of them are made up of multiple different sections of the website too. Creeds formation means you have to go into the scenery section after adding in his platoon etc.

I actually wouldn't mind it going to the top of the site if the next thing I wanted was in a different category. If I wanted some scenery and a platoon, for example, it would actually be handy to scroll back up to the top of the page so you could go to the scenery section more quickly. I think it makes the most sense for the 1-click army collections, where you want 1 of everything, so you can't update the quantity in your cart and you don't get redirected to the top of the page when the next thing you want to click on is in practically the same place on the page that you were just at.

It doesn't make much sense for a legion of 120 necron warriors because you can just add 1 and then modify the quantity when you check out. It makes some sense when, like you say, stuff is in different categories, because it still saves time, but the website works to your advantage in helping you to navigate elsewhere (even if the motive is to take you to the shopping cart and then the check out screen), which defeats the purpose of bundling somewhat. In a physical store, it'd be a dream! like putting wine next to cheese at the grocery store. But online, when you want 1 of every new product, fighting against a website that constantly encourages you to check out after you add a single product to your cart is just plain obnoxious. That's the problem that these bundles are designed to fix.

The way their site is set up is like a hyperattentive, pedantic shopkeeper. "Oh! You picked up a box of Terminators! Are you ready to check out? No? Oh, you want a land raider too? How about checking out now? No? You wanted an HQ? The register is right here. Not ready yet? Oh. You wanted a codex. How about checking out now?"

Much better to just lump all the products together if you are going to lead your customers to the top of the screen so they can manage their cart and check out immediately.

Sigh. :rolleyes: First world problems. I'm so glad these are the things that annoy me, instead of making sure I have food to eat and clean water to drink.

Mastodon
04-07-2013, 00:14
Well yes. This is a thread complaining about plastic toys being too expensive, when you put it into perspective its really rather insignificant isnt it.

ac4155
04-07-2013, 00:53
Things like 1-click bundle happen all the time in other areas of products, a bit slightly different, yet people don't really complain. Often bundle like this are expensive simply for the convenience of buying them together rather than packaged. Other times, the ideas are the same or cheaper. This happen all the time with things such as food and drinks, where the larger quantity often works out as more expensive than if bought separately.

If I'm honest, I have no problems with these bundles. I doubt I'd buy one, but I still don't see it as an issue for complaining over. If people want the convenience of being able to add a larger group of items to their basket so be it.

I'd also say it obviously must be working for GW or I could not see them contributing to do it now. Especially with the amount they have just released for Apocalypse.

Tarax
04-07-2013, 07:45
So I just threw a whole bunch of stuff in an online shopping cart on GW's site to verify that the price of a 1-click bundle matched up.

And you know what? All that clicking was really annoying. Every time you add something to your cart it scrolls up to the top of the page, so you need to scroll back down again. For a bundle with 15 different items, that's fifteen times you need to go from the top of the page down to whatever you want to add...

A lot of webstores work that way. It probably has more to do with the software used, than with any GW-policy.

Grimtuff
04-07-2013, 22:31
So I just threw a whole bunch of stuff in an online shopping cart on GW's site to verify that the price of a 1-click bundle matched up.

And you know what? All that clicking was really annoying. Every time you add something to your cart it scrolls up to the top of the page, so you need to scroll back down again. For a bundle with 15 different items, that's fifteen times you need to go from the top of the page down to whatever you want to add...

Ummm, just click on the product with the mouse wheel button (or right click and open a new tab). The product will go in the cart and the page won't move. Practically every webstore is like this.

Inquisitor Kallus
05-07-2013, 16:59
I think the problem is people feel they are entitled to a discount. Whilst it would be very nice, and i'd prefer they had discounts they don't. Does it say discount bundles in their descriptions? No, it does not.

On another note, if my girlfriend asks me to to take a bundle of clothes to the washing machine can I give her some back and say im not taking those, thats part of the discount im owed, lol :p

Grimtuff
05-07-2013, 22:02
I think the problem is people feel they are entitled to a discount. Whilst it would be very nice, and i'd prefer they had discounts they don't. Does it say discount bundles in their descriptions? No, it does not.

On another note, if my girlfriend asks me to to take a bundle of clothes to the washing machine can I give her some back and say im not taking those, thats part of the discount im owed, lol :p

*facepalm*

Yes, lets use a completely irrelevant example using another use of the word. :rolleyes:

If you had taken the time to look at the other definition (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bundling.asp), you'd see that this is how is it being misinterpreted. When you bundle several products together whether you actually call it that or not. The implication is there. People expect a discount, it's the natural order of things in retail.

Inquisitor Kallus
06-07-2013, 01:25
*facepalm*

Yes, lets use a completely irrelevant example using another use of the word. :rolleyes:

If you had taken the time to look at the other definition (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bundling.asp), you'd see that this is how is it being misinterpreted. When you bundle several products together whether you actually call it that or not. The implication is there. People expect a discount, it's the natural order of things in retail.

The last part was a joke, hence the face after.
A bundle does not imply a discount, a bundle deal does.
....
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bundle

Like I said before I imagine you feel entitled to a discount, eh Grimtuff. That doesnt mean you will get one unless it states otherwise.
People expect a lot o' things and dont get them, its the natural order of things in life....

Kalidane
07-07-2013, 11:13
...

Like I said before I imagine you feel entitled to a discount, eh Grimtuff. That doesnt mean you will get one unless it states otherwise.
People expect a lot o' things and dont get them, its the natural order of things in life....

I do expect a discount when I buy a big bunch of stuff and I do get it. I've been conditioned to expect such discounts by my experience with a range of miniature manufacturers, including GW in the dim past. I don't think 'entitlement' comes into it. Buy three and get one free. Spend over 25 for free shipping. Buy this big box of stuff and save 30% on buying the contents individually. Spend over 100 for 10% off; over 200 for 15% etc.

A great many businesses find it advantageous to offer consumers an inducement to make large orders. It isn't strange for those same consumers to be frustrated or disappointed that GW don't do that.

Tau_player001
07-07-2013, 11:37
The last part was a joke, hence the face after.
A bundle does not imply a discount, a bundle deal does.
....
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bundle

Like I said before I imagine you feel entitled to a discount, eh Grimtuff. That doesnt mean you will get one unless it states otherwise.
People expect a lot o' things and dont get them, its the natural order of things in life....

I don't think nobody is argueing whatever a bundle means. But, in my job, whenever we offer a bundle, we make it cheaper. Not because our clients are entlited brats, but because we gain more doing it than not doing it. And the poll at the top pretty much tells the same story.

Tau_player001
07-07-2013, 11:37
The last part was a joke, hence the face after.
A bundle does not imply a discount, a bundle deal does.
....
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bundle

Like I said before I imagine you feel entitled to a discount, eh Grimtuff. That doesnt mean you will get one unless it states otherwise.
People expect a lot o' things and dont get them, its the natural order of things in life....

I don't think nobody is argueing whatever a bundle means. But, in my job, whenever we offer a bundle, we make it cheaper. Not because our clients are entlited brats, but because we gain more doing it than not doing it. And the poll at the top pretty much tells the same story.

Konovalev
08-07-2013, 15:50
I don't think nobody is argueing whatever a bundle means. But, in my job, whenever we offer a bundle, we make it cheaper. Not because our clients are entlited brats, but because we gain more doing it than not doing it. And the poll at the top pretty much tells the same story.

Actually the poll at the top tells the story of how many people voted about buying a 1 click bundle with 2 choices as to why they had bought the bundle.

I think it even says as much somewhere after "View Poll results:"

Spiney Norman
08-07-2013, 22:37
As I see it the only conceivable benefit of the one-click bundles was revealed this month as it gave us advanced notice of how the new apoc formations would be structured. IMHO it is the worst sort of marketing ploy.

lenz
17-07-2013, 00:29
I completely agree with spiney norman. Anyway, compliments to the six who voted Yes, they were brave!

Verm1s
17-07-2013, 12:04
The results of the poll made me laugh and wheeze.

This.

I am the 400th no. :p