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View Full Version : Giving the Wraithknight a little bit more oomph



John Wayne II
19-06-2013, 19:21
I was thinking about the Wraithknight the other day and came to the conclusion that it's a little lackluster for such a big fellow. Compared to the next biggest thing, the Tau Riptide, it lacks a good save, including the inv one, a good gun and decent or interesting special rules. So I thought it could do with some sprucing up. Here's what I would do:

Give it the Split Fire USR.

Give it a special rule, name pending, that allows it to fire up to four weapons in the shooting phase.

Reduce all secondary weapon prices to 10 pts.

Reduce Suncannon price to 20 pts.

Make all the "arm" upgrades individual. So instead of buying the sword and shield together, as the codex forces you to, you can buy each one separately (and only once).

Change the Wraithsword effect so that it gives the wielder +1 WS instead of S. It stays master crafted. 5 pts.

The shield is also 5 pts and stays the same. Could bump up to 10 though.

Change to the Suncannon weapon profile. As it is it's a tad lackluster, as all those blasts can scatter and don't cover many models anyway. Most characteristics stay the same, but change the shot stat from "Heavy 3 Blast" to "Heavy 10". Makes it a bit more reliable while not making it overpowered, and more interesting than just making the gun a large blast.

Lastly, give it a 2+ armor save.

I think these changes would make for a more enjoyable playing experience, and it encourages you to mix and match weapons and upgrades instead of being stuck with 3 limited builds. The last suggestion is not essential to the overall design, I think it brings it more into line with its cost and protects it from getting shot off by DE too easily, but if people think it makes it overpowered then its armor save can stay the same. I would also change a couple of things about the Wraithlord to make it a more competitive choice relative to its big brother:

Change base cost to 115 pts.
All weapon upgrades, flamers excepted, now cost 10 pts each.

Thoughts?

John Wayne II
21-06-2013, 21:44
Seriously, no takers? Anyway, some further points, for all that anyone cares:

Allow Wraithknights to take two Suncannons. Individual price stays the same.

Allow them to take two Wraithswords. They would be paired weapons so the big guy would gain an extra attack, and since they're both master crafted it would also gain two rerolls. Needless to say the WS bonus stacks, so a Wraithknight with a pair of these bad boys would have a WS of 6. It's just an option that's there to allow people to take a CC oriented build (that doesn't suck) if they so wish.

I would also allow the Wraithlord to take a pair of swords, which would give it S10 plus the additional attack plus rerolls. Maybe increase the price of the sword?

Poseidal
22-06-2013, 09:42
I don't know for now. The problem with big monstrous creatures is they can tip into being too powerful very easily.

I think Heavy 10 on the Suncannon will make it too much of 'kill everything' weapon. The reason I say this is that it makes it far more effective against light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

I think the current Suncannon is priced correctly (relative to the H.Wraithcannon) as people are considering it as a good viable option for its current points. No one is considering the sword though.

The shooting >2 weapons is a good thing to consider, as currently the shoulder guns are pretty useless. I think this is what makes it seem a bit like it has a too low damage output

I would do the following:

Knight Assault - Allows it to fire two additional weapons a turn.
Wraithglaive option - no points cost (possibly make it the default option for -10 or -20 points on the current Wraithknight, with the dual Wraithcannon being +10/20 points and Suncannon +50/60)
Allow purchase of Brightlance and EML for same price as Wraithlord in addition to the Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon and Starcannon options.

And maybe add the following weapon:

Replace both H.Wraithcannon with two Knight D-Scythe (torrent D-Scythe) - 30 points

*One thing that will bother me is the mixing of Scatter Lasers, another heavy weapon and two wraithcannon - it will just look too asymetrical for me compared with the other options and maybe Wraithcannon, Bright Lance + Scatter laser becomes too much of a no-brainer too (needs discussion).

BTJ
22-06-2013, 12:45
Ok, I only used mine once so far, but everything he shot died. Maybe give the wraithcannons a rule to integrate the add-on weaponry so you can fire everything with that build. The sword's so useless I just see it as a visual part only, because it's a pretty piece so I used it on my suncannon knight. The suncannon load-out IMO is fine, shove a scatter laser on his shoulder and the blasts are more than accurate enough, and then add a Shuriken Cannon for firing on overwatch. With that build I find all three guns have a use because his main weapon can't snap fire anyway

John Wayne II
29-06-2013, 20:42
I think Heavy 10 on the Suncannon will make it too much of 'kill everything' weapon. The reason I say this is that it makes it far more effective against light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

I think you may have a point. In that case I would make the Suncannon just another pie plate weapon.


I think the current Suncannon is priced correctly (relative to the H.Wraithcannon) as people are considering it as a good viable option for its current points. No one is considering the sword though.

Really? I think the SC is horrendously overcosted. Compare with the Ion weapon the Riptide gets; 5 points for a Strength 8 AP 2 pie plate. I don't think it's "viable" so much as the fact it's the only other option we get. The sword is not taken because it sacrifices a useful weapon for no discernible advantage, since the WK doesn't benefit from the stupid strength bonus.


The shooting >2 weapons is a good thing to consider, as currently the shoulder guns are pretty useless. I think this is what makes it seem a bit like it has a too low damage output

I would do the following:

Knight Assault - Allows it to fire two additional weapons a turn.
Wraithglaive option - no points cost (possibly make it the default option for -10 or -20 points on the current Wraithknight, with the dual Wraithcannon being +10/20 points and Suncannon +50/60)
Allow purchase of Brightlance and EML for same price as Wraithlord in addition to the Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon and Starcannon options.

And maybe add the following weapon:

Replace both H.Wraithcannon with two Knight D-Scythe (torrent D-Scythe) - 30 points

*One thing that will bother me is the mixing of Scatter Lasers, another heavy weapon and two wraithcannon - it will just look too asymetrical for me compared with the other options and maybe Wraithcannon, Bright Lance + Scatter laser becomes too much of a no-brainer too (needs discussion).

I don't know why you would want to shuffle the points cost around like that, I think the basic WK is fine as is and just needs a little tweaking around. As for the Knight D-Scythes, well, why the hell not :D. You may be right about combo no brainers, I was thinking about adding a footnote to the Knight Assault rule that basically says Scatter Lasers can only twin link one other weapon on the model (per Scatter Laser).


Ok, I only used mine once so far, but everything he shot died. Maybe give the wraithcannons a rule to integrate the add-on weaponry so you can fire everything with that build. The sword's so useless I just see it as a visual part only, because it's a pretty piece so I used it on my suncannon knight. The suncannon load-out IMO is fine, shove a scatter laser on his shoulder and the blasts are more than accurate enough, and then add a Shuriken Cannon for firing on overwatch. With that build I find all three guns have a use because his main weapon can't snap fire anyway

I think giving the model the "fire everything" rule is better design than putting it on the weapon. I still feel the SC is too unreliable, the blasts are too small and even a small scatter means you won't get many models in. Whatever floats your boat though...

As for my ideas about the twin bladed weapons, I remembered a while back that weapon bonuses don't stack. Never mind, I would still leave that option in since I think the extra attack is still worth it. Plus, it looks cool.

Saunders
25-07-2013, 20:41
Of course the Wraithknight would look anemic when compared to the Riptide, especially when considering their shooting capabilities. The real crux of of the difference is that regardless of how you dress up the Wraithknight with weapons, its base stats make it a model that needs to be in close combat to get its full worth. With S10, T8, and 6W, whatever guns you put on the wraithknight are frosting on the cake as opposed to the real focus of the model.

If you want to load up the Wraithknight with enough shooting potential to overshadow more dedicated ranged monsters, the point cost would need to be abhorrant.