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Spiney Norman
20-06-2013, 13:37
I appreciate that in the main all varieties of Eldar shun the forces of Chaos because of their 'ongoing disagreement' with she who thirsts. I just wondered if there were every any Eldar (not DE necessarily, but they seem more the type) who have ever actually pledged their allegiance to the Dark gods. Perhaps a dark Eldar archon who has gone to the depraved extreme of actually worshiping Slaanesh, or maybe is trying to fight Slaanesh by actively working for one of the other 3 chaos gods in order to try and thwart she who thirsts.

Is there anything like that in the 40K fluff past or present, or would a chaos-themed Kabal be fluff anathema?

OuroborosTriumphant
20-06-2013, 13:53
There are references in older fluff to Chaos-worshipping Eldar, dwelling on the Crone worlds. There are...disputes over whether it's still canon.

There is mention in Codex Dark Eldar of an Archon who allied with Daemons to attempt to overthrow Vect. He ended up eaten by them, but it indicates that throwing in with Chaos isn't outside the realm of possibility for an ambitious Archon.

A Chaos worshipping Kabal would definitely want to keep that on the down-low; it's the kind of thing Vect would respond to with overwhelming and psychotic use of force. But it's possible.

Spiney Norman
20-06-2013, 14:05
There are references in older fluff to Chaos-worshipping Eldar, dwelling on the Crone worlds. There are...disputes over whether it's still canon.

There is mention in Codex Dark Eldar of an Archon who allied with Daemons to attempt to overthrow Vect. He ended up eaten by them, but it indicates that throwing in with Chaos isn't outside the realm of possibility for an ambitious Archon.

A Chaos worshipping Kabal would definitely want to keep that on the down-low; it's the kind of thing Vect would respond to with overwhelming and psychotic use of force. But it's possible.

My understanding is that there are plenty of Kabals that are not based in Comorragh like the Sky Serpents, wouldn't a space-based Kabal be sufficiently out of Vect's reach that they could do pretty much whatever the hell they wanted to?

blackcherry
20-06-2013, 14:28
My understanding is that there are plenty of Kabals that are not based in Comorragh like the Sky Serpents, wouldn't a space-based Kabal be sufficiently out of Vect's reach that they could do pretty much whatever the hell they wanted to?

Perhaps, but all paths in the webway lead to Commegrah eventually as Vect has worked tirelessly to make it that way. So if they ever wanted supplies and to not be harassed by their own people for the rest of their lives, they would have a way of working with Vect, even if its on the sly.

Mostly though I think its because the Dark Eldar, for all their arrogance, aren't suicidal. When there is literally a bunch of daemons waiting to feast of your soul for all eternity, you don't give them reason to look your way.

OuroborosTriumphant
20-06-2013, 15:09
My understanding is that there are plenty of Kabals that are not based in Comorragh like the Sky Serpents, wouldn't a space-based Kabal be sufficiently out of Vect's reach that they could do pretty much whatever the hell they wanted to?

Obviously, the distinctions are not razor-sharp, but my understanding is that the Sky Serpents are more of a Corsair Band than a Kabal.

But yeah, a group of Dark Eldar, call it Corsair Band, Kabal or something else, would be less under threat from Vect in real-space than in Commorragh. There would of course, be downsides to this as well, but it doesn't strike me as impossible.

EDIT: The Sky Serpents don't follow the whole "Kabal of the [Adjective] [Noun] formula", either.

Reasonable Commissar
20-06-2013, 15:13
In the old BFG novels the Deldar in there seemed to worship/work for Chaos/Slaanesh but thats really old fluff now so likely isnt still canon.

Denny
20-06-2013, 15:35
Perhaps a dark Eldar archon who has gone to the depraved extreme of actually worshiping Slaanesh?

Worshiping anything goes against the Dark Eldar mindset.
Even the Dark muses aren't worshiped, merely respected for being good at what they do.

A chaos themed Kabal that binds/makes use of daemons might be possible at a stretch, but active worship of any deity is about as Dark Eldar-y as giving out candy and helping old ladies cross the road.

carlisimo
20-06-2013, 16:23
There are dark eldar who have tried to use daemons, but they’re certainly not chaos worshippers.

As OuroborosTriumphant said, there may be “chaos eldar” in the Eye of Terror, but there’s contradictory material about them. Somewhere I’ve read that chaos-worshipping eldar on the crone worlds are the most populous of all the eldar… but more commonly it’s written that Slaanesh’s awakening left no survivors that close to the heart of the eldar empire. I suppose we should think of it as one of the mysteries of the universe.

But you wouldn’t find chaos worshippers in Commoragh, that’s almost certain.

Menthak
20-06-2013, 16:36
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050222

Not sure if the Warp beast is technically a Daemon.

Other than that, I guess it's not impossible/

Denny
20-06-2013, 17:34
Not sure if the Warp beast is technically a Daemon.

Other than that, I guess it's not impossible/

Under current fluff warp beasts (or Khymerar) are warp creatures that coalesce around nightmares. Beastmasters have to enter dream states to hunt down and harness these creatures.

That's Dark Eldar's attitude to daemons. You break and ensalve them.

Sammun
21-06-2013, 03:03
The Soul Drinkers worked with and then against a Slaanesh worshipping Archon.

So in theory, it would work alright. The kabal/cult/fleet would just have to be balls to the wall crazy.

Spiney Norman
21-06-2013, 07:02
The Soul Drinkers worked with and then against a Slaanesh worshipping Archon.

So in theory, it would work alright. The kabal/cult/fleet would just have to be balls to the wall crazy.

Is that in one of the Soul drinkers BL books? That would be comparatively recent compared to most "chaos Eldar" references, which seem to be largely confined to 2nd ed or before.

Azulthar
21-06-2013, 08:10
Of course there's a Chaos-worshipping (dark) Eldar somewhere. No matter how "a-typical" it is for them, there are always exceptions.

Denny
21-06-2013, 08:42
Of course there's a Chaos-worshipping (dark) Eldar somewhere. No matter how "a-typical" it is for them, there are always exceptions.

I'm sure there are Eldar who worship chaos. I just don't think such Eldar could realistically be described as 'Dark' Eldar. Dark Eldar are completely self-involved. As I've said before, worshiping another being is an anathema to them.

It’s like saying ‘Are there any imperial Space Marines who worship Nurgle?’

No, because while loyal Space Marines might pledge themselves to Nurgle as soon as they do they are no longer 'imperial' space marines.
By the same token, any Dark Eldar weak enough to become subservient to a warp entity is no longer a true Dark Eldar. Being 'Dark' Eldar is more than just being evil, its about self worship and indulgence. Each Dark Eldar is like a microcosm of Slaanesh itself.

Can you see Slaanesh worshiping another being?

Additionally (as I understand it) Dark Eldar souls belong to Slannesh. It doesn’t matter if they worship someone else (unless they defect and become Harlequins, in which case they are no longer Dark Eldar). So a Dark Eldar warrior might pledge himself to Khorne, but it doesn’t matter; when he dies Slaanesh claims him.

For this reason I don’t think many gods would be interested in a Dark Eldar follower (though an alliance would certainly be worth consideration).

That's my understanding of it anyway. :)

blackcherry
21-06-2013, 11:12
I'm sure there are Eldar who worship chaos. I just don't think such Eldar could realistically be described as 'Dark' Eldar. Dark Eldar are completely self-involved. As I've said before, worshiping another being is an anathema to them.

It’s like saying ‘Are there any imperial Space Marines who worship Nurlgle?’

No, because while loyal Space Marines might pledge themselves to Nurgle as soon as they do they are no longer 'imperial' space marines.
By the same token, any Dark Eldar weak enough to become subservient to a warp entity is no longer a true Dark Eldar. Being 'Dark' Eldar is more than just being evil, its about self worship and indulgence. Each Dark Eldar is like a microcosm of Slaanesh itself.

Can you see Slaanesh worshiping another being?

Additionally (as I understand it) Dark Eldar souls belong to Slannesh. It doesn’t matter if they worship someone else (unless they defect and become Harlequins, in which case they are no longer Dark Eldar). So a Dark Eldar warrior might pledge himself to Khorne, but it doesn’t matter; when he dies Slaanesh claims him.

For this reason I don’t think many gods would be interested in a Dark Eldar follower (though an alliance would certainly be worth consideration).

That's my understanding of it anyway. :)

Thats a very good summary Denny and you put it much better than I did above.

MarshalFaust
21-06-2013, 16:30
This artwork for the cover of Atlas Infernal seems to depict a chaos eldar of some sort on a daemon world.
http://rob-sanders.blogspot.com/2011/07/thousand-words.html

Omegon
21-06-2013, 19:07
One question that can be asked is what happens to the soul when it gets eaten? Is it essentially petrol for the Slaanesh engine, or do they enter Slaanesh's realm and becomes it's plaything for all eternity? I would personally think the latter, it just sounds cooler, Slaanesh being the embodiment of the Eldar Satan and his realm being hell. If this of course was the case (and could be, GW never admits to canonical fact anyways). Within the Eye on crone worlds there would be a mass of slave souls. I like the idea of half eldar part daemonic all corrupted creatures that try to kill anything to relieve their torment and escape.

bittick
21-06-2013, 19:17
I'm sure there are Eldar who worship chaos. I just don't think such Eldar could realistically be described as 'Dark' Eldar. Dark Eldar are completely self-involved. As I've said before, worshiping another being is an anathema to them.

By the same token, any Dark Eldar weak enough to become subservient to a warp entity is no longer a true Dark Eldar. Being 'Dark' Eldar is more than just being evil, its about self worship and indulgence.

You haven't experienced real self-indulgence until you lick a girl's boots while she beats you with a whip until you bleed. "As you command, my goddess."

I mean, you know, I've heard.

So yes, I could definitely see Dark Eldar worshiping something. It all depends, what do you want to indulge in? Saying they don't worship Chaos is walking a very fine line when you consider that a Dark Eldar's Tuesday is basically indistinguishable from traditional Chaos worship. It's like saying I'm not Catholic, I just believe in God, go to Mass every Sunday, celebrate all the holidays, do what the Pope says, read the Bible, take Communion, and tithe appropriately. Just about the only thing that Dark Eldar don't do is open big uncontrolled portals to the Warp. But that's not a requirement for following Chaos. Your average "prayer" to the Chaos gods involves eating babies, killing a bunch of people, and doing whatever you want. Dark Eldar are down with all that.

While most DE don't actively claim to worship Chaos, apparently neither do the Night Lords or the Iron Warriors, or any host of other guys who get their rules from the Chaos Codex. If the DE aren't Chaos then they're next-door neighbors. And we don't really know the metaphysics of it, if a DE pledged himself to Tzeentch, his soul might go there. It's just the standard "alignment" if you will of most Eldar sends them straight to Slaanesh. It's like Slaanesh set up shop in the traditional Eldar afterlife. Doesn't mean you can't work hard to go somewhere else, though.

Denny
21-06-2013, 19:42
While most DE don't actively claim to worship Chaos, apparently neither do the Night Lords or the Iron Warriors, or any host of other guys who get their rules from the Chaos Codex. If the DE aren't Chaos then they're next-door neighbors.

Slaanesh enjoys massive orgies of bloodshed. Does this mean its 'worshiping' Khorne?

The Iron Warriors and Night Lords see chaos as a tool (more fool them!) that can be used by a strong will.

The Dark Eldar are terrified of Slaanesh. As the codex states: 'they hate and fear Slaanesh above all, for she was given life by their actions, and yet she waits hungrily upon the other side of the veil to claim each and every one of them . . . ten thousand years later, in the 41st Millennium, Slaanesh's thirst pulls at them still. There truly is no escape.'

The Dark Eldar will be consumed by Slaanesh.
There is no other option if they remain on their path.
Some do reform, either becoming craftwolders or harlequins, but then they are no longer Dark Eldar.

As I've said before, it's like saying: 'Could a champion of Khonre worship the emperor?'

No . . . Because if he does he can no longer qualify as a champion of Khorne.

Spiney Norman
21-06-2013, 23:18
I don't necessarily think a chaos aligned Eldar would necessarily worship Slaanesh in the traditional human-cultist sense of cutting out hearts on a dark altar and singing "Slaanesh loves me this I know..." To the tune of a battered old organ.

I'm more thinking of a dark Eldar who has somehow got passed their fear of Slaanesh and instead sees embracing the god their race created as the next phase in pursuit of new sensations and depths of depraved experience.

Or alternatively a dark Eldar who is so scared of Slaanesh he's thrown his lot in with another power which he hopes will let him escape the dark princes clutches.

Radium
22-06-2013, 00:31
Path of the Renegade has some Chaosy Eldar in there. It's been a while since I read that though, so I can't recall exactly how that all came to be. I'm sure some of the good people of Warseer have a better memory than I do and can fill you on the details.

Lord-Caerolion
22-06-2013, 07:04
One question that can be asked is what happens to the soul when it gets eaten? Is it essentially petrol for the Slaanesh engine, or do they enter Slaanesh's realm and becomes it's plaything for all eternity? I would personally think the latter, it just sounds cooler, Slaanesh being the embodiment of the Eldar Satan and his realm being hell. If this of course was the case (and could be, GW never admits to canonical fact anyways). Within the Eye on crone worlds there would be a mass of slave souls. I like the idea of half eldar part daemonic all corrupted creatures that try to kill anything to relieve their torment and escape.

It's both at the same time. The soul gets absorbed by Slaanesh, and is no longer a distinguishable entity, which we rationalise as the soul entering the realm of Slaanesh and being tortured for eternity.

Saunders
22-06-2013, 15:40
Path of the Renegade has some Chaosy Eldar in there. It's been a while since I read that though, so I can't recall exactly how that all came to be. I'm sure some of the good people of Warseer have a better memory than I do and can fill you on the details.

Posession and a daemon wearing the form of Eldar. Wasn't necessarily straight-up 'chaos eldar.'

El_Machinae
25-06-2013, 01:07
It's both at the same time. The soul gets absorbed by Slaanesh, and is no longer a distinguishable entity, which we rationalise as the soul entering the realm of Slaanesh and being tortured for eternity.

If the metaphysics, from the Eldar point of view, was more of the 'you die = functional oblivion', I don't think they'd be as scared. They view their souls as being tormented from an eternity, I think.

edit: you know, if that's true, then there's actually a moral onus to 'defeat' Slaanesh.

Azulthar
25-06-2013, 09:31
I'm sure there are Eldar who worship chaos. I just don't think such Eldar could realistically be described as 'Dark' Eldar. Dark Eldar are completely self-involved. As I've said before, worshiping another being is an anathema to them.
So as soon as a Dark Eldar starts worshiping Chaos, we should call him a Chaos Eldar? Fair enough. Same goes for Imperial Space Marines, as you said.

My point is that no matter how unlikely it is for a Dark Eldar to turn, in a crowd of trillions there are always exceptions. It's a trap to think in absolutes when discussing races/cultures/etc*.



* Well, with the exception of Grey Knights, apparently....(egh).

Wyrmwood
01-07-2013, 01:10
Lke all artificial and biological sentient life, Eldar can be corrupted and possessed by the malefic. The Craftworlders' entire culture is a defence against this, as is the Dark Eldar's (their home in the Dark City, the practice of feeding on souls to replenish their own draining essence etc). It just so happens that the Dark Eldar, as direct descendants of the old ways of the Eldar Empire, have become shades of the entity that broke them, only to stave off that very same entity. It's poetic and, in a way, makes them victims of their own past and methods of survival.

As has been said, however, if a Dark Eldar actively worshiped one of the Chaos powers, it would no longer be a Dark Eldar. It's soul would likely suffer instant consumption, and it's husk a shell for possession.