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GrandmasterWang
22-06-2013, 12:18
I'm curious as to people's opinions.

Basically I'm asking for opinions on what you think are the least effective monsters for the points?

Under normal scenarios.

Feel free to include Tamurkan/ Arcane/ Storm of Magic monsters

The cygor is my nomination.

It is a ws2 t5 w5 beast that costs more than 2 khannons (broken example I know) and has no saves.

In its defence it is stubborn, lobs stones and gets rerolls against magic users.

Any other nominations?

Defenders of the gor of Cy?

I have heard the new Woc monsters are pretty bad but haven't faced them in the flesh yet. I have the Woc book and to my eyethey both seem a fair bit better than poor one eye

Scammel
22-06-2013, 12:51
There's no debate here. It is the Cygor. Giants get criticised for being too fragile for the cost, this thing has less wounds and costs around 30% more than the standard 8th ed Giant.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2013, 13:08
The Dark Elf manticore is quite poor for it's cost.

Phoenix Blaze
22-06-2013, 14:36
Far from the worst but I've found the new Slaughterbeast is just....meh. So it has a few attacks and a Tstomp....that's it. For a new monster I really thought it would have some cool shenanigans (I'll assume the Vortex Beast does, just because it looks so wacky) but no, it's just a bunch of attacks. Maybe having a save is its saving grace?

Vipoid
22-06-2013, 16:03
I'd be tempted to say the VC Abysmal Terror - mainly because you're forced to put a Vampire Lord on the back of it.

Sexiest_hero
22-06-2013, 16:07
Hippogriph or however it is spelled is the worst. The cygor sucks in combat but doesn't have to be there, as he has a 60" range.

Bigman
22-06-2013, 16:18
Griffons before the new 8th books gave them upgrades. No save tgh5, 4 wounds.

It could fly, but it was ridiculous to keep alive.

I would second the slaughterbrute. Even funnier that they managed to write the army book so that the (clearly superior) shaggoth was opposite it on the other page.

At least there isn't a direct competition to some of the monsters mentioned above. The slaughterbrute isn't great, and it already has a better replacement, which has:-

Same save
Immune to psych
Weapon options
Better movement, wounds, initiative, attacks and leadership.
Doesn't go crazy if your lord dies.

For a min 10 points more (maybe more if you give the shaggoth an adw or GW)

Scammel
22-06-2013, 16:22
The cygor sucks in combat but doesn't have to be there, as he has a 60" range.

You fancy paying just shy of 300pts for a stone thrower?

Anything with wings, including the Jabberslythe, automatically escapes from the title this thread seeks to award in my opinion, the ability to at least get behind cover, out of firing arcs and into places of safety/opportunity is a straw to grab at.

Agoz
22-06-2013, 17:36
The chaos dwarf iron deamon with skullcracker is quite bad, possibly over 300pts for something that can be neutralized by literally anything that isn't susceptible to thunderstomp, and that is without talking about its inability to wheel while charging.

theshoveller
22-06-2013, 18:18
What, nobody's mentioned the Vermin Lord yet?

Hudson Gameover
22-06-2013, 18:38
Griffons before the new 8th books gave them upgrades. No save tgh5, 4 wounds.

It could fly, but it was ridiculous to keep alive.

I would second the slaughterbrute. Even funnier that they managed to write the army book so that the (clearly superior) shaggoth was opposite it on the other page.

At least there isn't a direct competition to some of the monsters mentioned above. The slaughterbrute isn't great, and it already has a better replacement, which has:-

Same save
Immune to psych
Weapon options
Better movement, wounds, initiative, attacks and leadership.
Doesn't go crazy if your lord dies.

For a min 10 points more (maybe more if you give the shaggoth an adw or GW)

Agreed. Also the Shaggoth has alot smaller base size.

the_picto
22-06-2013, 18:41
Can I go with Orion? Almost 600pts for t5 and only a 5++ that doesn't work against magical attacks. He's nothing special in combat and he has the only bolt thrower that doesn't ignore armour.

Bigman
22-06-2013, 18:42
It isn't the worst monster, but it comes close. I feel it has the least excuse being that WoC is a new army. If they wanted to sell the kit, make it a better monster! Str7 is nice, but my shaggoth get Asl str 8 with a GW.

sulla
22-06-2013, 23:23
The humble giant is quite bad for it's cost. Allowed in 3 armybooks, rarely taken in any.

My biggest hatred goes to the Jabberslythe and Cygor because they are both overpriced and their page is filled with time-wasting rules that never seem to have an impact on games.

Why
22-06-2013, 23:35
Cygor, to be fielded on a competitive level he needs to be about 90 points cheaper.

Bob Arctor
23-06-2013, 02:43
I rate the Jabberslythe as the worst because, model aside, I really can't think of a reason for fielding one, whereas I can for the Cygor even if it is overpriced.

Abyssal Terror isn't very good either, but at least its a lot cheaper. Giants are awesome by comparison. Doesn't mean they are that great either but for some armies having a stubborn Ld10 unit is a bit of a novelty, and they are quite good at taking on opposing monsters.

Nightmare84
23-06-2013, 02:53
Giants have been pin cushions for my skinks for many editions now. They should have a thick skinned rule for being giant humans.... Wouldn't break them just make them better against what kills them.

Doommasters
23-06-2013, 05:15
Gw FAQ kholek to have heavy armour not sure why they can't do it for beast men ang give them something .

TsukeFox
23-06-2013, 05:21
What, nobody's mentioned the Vermin Lord yet?

And the Daemons of Chaos Daemon Prince compared to the Warriors of Chaps Daemon Prince

Not-not-kenny
23-06-2013, 12:45
The carnosaur should be at least in the top five.

Myster2
23-06-2013, 17:07
Agreed with carnosaur

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Ramius4
23-06-2013, 17:33
Giant all the way.

ivan55599
23-06-2013, 17:52
Dammit, why they left off giant's mutant monstrosity? (5+)

Baluc
23-06-2013, 17:54
Agreed with carnosaur

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Whats wrong with the Carnasaur, S7 D3 wounds is pretty monstrous, makes the slaughterbrute look like a kissing 1st grader. I takes down Mcav and Minf like nothing else in the game...

Ramius4
23-06-2013, 18:03
Dammit, why they left off giant's mutant monstrosity? (5+)

Even when you could get that for the Chaos Giants, it didn't make up for the general ineffectiveness of Giants.


Whats wrong with the Carnasaur, S7 D3 wounds is pretty monstrous, makes the slaughterbrute look like a kissing 1st grader. I takes down Mcav and Minf like nothing else in the game...

Yeah, Carnosaurs work just fine. Who knows, maybe the poster runs into lots of cannons or something? But if that's the case, it's not a problem with the Carnosaur. All monsters struggle against certain things.

FatTrucker
23-06-2013, 18:21
What, nobody's mentioned the Vermin Lord yet?

Yeah its not really brilliant for its points on its own in CC mainly due to its low T....but it is Skaven even if its a demonic Skaven.
What you're paying the extra for though is the fact its a level 4 caster, with access to some of the nastiest spells in the game, coupled to a solid attacking statline, so long as its properly supported its not half bad.

Will almost never make its points back in CC but the potential to infect a unit with Wither, then Plague or 13th prior to getting killy is not to be sniffed at.

Why
23-06-2013, 18:32
I rate the Jabberslythe as the worst because, model aside, I really can't think of a reason for fielding one, whereas I can for the Cygor even if it is overpriced.


That depends on how you rule the Jabberslythes bile blood. If you allow the jabberslythe to get overkilled and inflict that many wounds then suiciding him into hordes can bring some serious hurt.
1.Make a nice conversion to get him on his base the same way as the soulgrinder
2.Throw him into a horde of white lions
3.He get's overkilled by like 30 because his stats are so bad
4. 30 strength 5 auto hits baby!

But if you just say that a model can only take as many wounds as he has on his profile then he is just a flying razorgor chariot that dies more easily.

Scammel
23-06-2013, 19:04
Make a nice conversion to get him on his base the same way as the soulgrinder

Veeeery WAAC if you ask me. Spring this on someone at an event and don't be surprised if a judge is called over.

GrandmasterWang
23-06-2013, 20:04
Veeeery WAAC if you ask me. Spring this on someone at an event and don't be surprised if a judge is called over.

Agreed. Given there is an actual model that comes on a chariot base I don't think this would fly.

With my chaos dwarf prophet on a Taurus I can imagine the rage (justified) if I side arachnarok based him ("oh I'm touching all your guys now, they all take a strength 4 hit before they get to attack")

The jabberslythe I feel is a lot better than a cygor due to its special rules and the fact that it's a flying terror causer. That has to count for something.

I'm with Baluc on the carnosaur. D3 wounds and it has an armor save. It's a lot cheaper than a cygor also. No way I would have them top 5. Why are they so terrible?

Is Orion a monster? If so that's a brilliant choice. My gaming group uses my rules for Orion as the original is so useless. I don't think he is a monster though... just a monster hunter.

Ramius4
23-06-2013, 20:07
I don't think he is a monster though... just a monster hunter.

Actually, his troop type really is Monster. But even with Thunderstomp, he's pretty crappy. He's like a Verminlord without the spellcasting.

Why
23-06-2013, 20:55
Veeeery WAAC if you ask me. Spring this on someone at an event and don't be surprised if a judge is called over.
At least the beastman rare section is getting used.

Scammel
23-06-2013, 21:03
At least the beastman rare section is getting used.

Not really a justification many would be willing to swallow.

Why
23-06-2013, 23:10
Wouldn't a larger base be modelling for disadvantage, because the jabberslythe is much more likely to get killed.
Him getting killed is not what I wanted to happen when I charged him into that white lion horde;)

See you can't prove anything, so the judge couldn't do anything about it. My 275 point model would die like 3 times as fast, so putting him on a larger base is worse than if he was on a smaller base.

Kayosiv
24-06-2013, 00:38
I'm with Baluc on the carnosaur. D3 wounds and it has an armor save. It's a lot cheaper than a cygor also. No way I would have them top 5. Why are they so terrible?


They are terrible because they have poor weaponskill, poor initiative, and have to be ridden. Their special rule for blood frenzy is usually a handicap rather than a strength, and while their special rule to do d3 wounds is very potent with their strength 7, anything that it would be useful to use that rule against will likely kill the carnosaur very quickly, very possibly before it gets a chance to attack. Unlike a lot of the weak monster mounts like gryphons and manticores, the carnosaur doesn't offer the rider any additional mobility he can't get from a regular mount (which is what everyone takes instead, putting their oldbloods on cold ones if they want them mounted). In most situations, it would be more beneficial and actually cheaper to just buy a second oldblood instead of the carnosaur because he is harder to kill and does comparable damage.

Doommasters
24-06-2013, 06:19
Carny is not the worst but it's pretty rubbish especially in The Lord section. It does need a buff which we should see in the new lizard men army book.

The above poster nailed it. Basically anything that has d3 wounds owns it and it is wasted on 1 wound steadfast infantry.

The concept is nice and the fluff is cool the only problem in my experience is that it does not work on the table.

T-Rex hAs to be just behind dragons and even dragons are over costed in my book. Not the worst but they sure are not worth the points on the current rules.

innerwolf
24-06-2013, 06:39
I must nominate Stegadons and Ancient Stegadons.
They have their uses and look good on paper, but they are overpriced when compared with all the newer "howdah monsters" (Arachnaroks,Warsphynxs,Thundertusks/Stonehorns). But their real downfall is having squishy targeteable crew. They die like flies to anything decent in combat (where the Stegadon wants to be) and don't get me started on cannons. They hit each Skink plus the Stegadon automatically!
Just by merging the Skinks into the Stegadon's profile it would get a lot more playable.

Scammel
24-06-2013, 08:34
Wouldn't a larger base be modelling for disadvantage, because the jabberslythe is much more likely to get killed.
Him getting killed is not what I wanted to happen when I charged him into that white lion horde

See you can't prove anything, so the judge couldn't do anything about it. My 275 point model would die like 3 times as fast, so putting him on a larger base is worse than if he was on a smaller base.

I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone upon whom the spirit of the game is as lost as this.

theunwantedbeing
24-06-2013, 09:59
They are terrible because they have poor weaponskill, poor initiative, and have to be ridden. Their special rule for blood frenzy is usually a handicap rather than a strength,
How is it a handicap?


and while their special rule to do d3 wounds is very potent with their strength 7, anything that it would be useful to use that rule against will likely kill the carnosaur very quickly, very possibly before it gets a chance to attack.
Perhaps although all monsters are in this situation, the carnosaur at the very least is quite capable of making a mess of what is about to kill it.


Unlike a lot of the weak monster mounts like gryphons and manticores, the carnosaur doesn't offer the rider any additional mobility he can't get from a regular mount (which is what everyone takes instead, putting their oldbloods on cold ones if they want them mounted). In most situations, it would be more beneficial and actually cheaper to just buy a second oldblood instead of the carnosaur because he is harder to kill and does comparable damage.
That's a fair point.
Although unlike those winged fling things the carnosaur isn't a large target so can actually gain some benefit from having a screen and it's a lot less likely to be downed by low level missile fire due to the extra wound and 4+ armour save.

I'm sure given the choice between a Griffon, Manticore or a Carnosaur....you'd pick the Carnosaur.

Wesser
24-06-2013, 11:23
Hippogryph is lousy. Even though it gets a small ward save it's easily overcosted by 50 pts for smething that dies if you look at it funny and taps into your lord section. At least DE can take manticores as hero choices

Cygor is an overpriced Stone Thrower that is however (probably) not going to be taken out by classic war macine hunters. In an army with almost no shooting he's at least midly interesting.

No, I'm gonna go with the Hippogryph

Romark
24-06-2013, 11:41
If the Cygor is getting a mention, then surely the Ghorgon. I've used that thing in SoM and had it used against me a few times by a Beastman player, who refuses to ever use it again. It looks great on paper, but just bu having no save it makes it so easy to kill. It actually charged my Repeater Bolt Thrower once doing no wounds, i did one and then charged my Repeater Crossbows into the flank and obliterated it (for fairness, i did do 3 wounds with my Bolt Thrower before he charged).
He say's he's used it in 7-10 battles and it's done literally nothing. Killed a handful of models. And he's a good player, so it's not because he's tactically inept.

I still think that the War Hydra can be rubbish (i know it isn't at all, just always seems to do poorly for me. I am more tactically inept than my above friend though!).

the_picto
24-06-2013, 11:45
Is Orion a monster? If so that's a brilliant choice. My gaming group uses my rules for Orion as the original is so useless. I don't think he is a monster though... just a monster hunter.

Yeah, Orion is a monster. I love the model, but he just isn't very good. If you don't mind, what are your rules for him?

MyNameDidntFit
24-06-2013, 11:51
I really think this thread ended with the first mention of Orion.

Scammel
24-06-2013, 11:55
The Ghorgon at least possesses the minimal wounds and toughness you'd expect of such a monster and a (admittedly dire) way of getting them back. It's not a slouch in combat either, with a large number of attacks and good enough WS to make sure at least some of them connect, with TStomp on top of that. It's nowhere near as overpriced as the Cygor.

theshoveller
24-06-2013, 14:00
Yeah its not really brilliant for its points on its own in CC mainly due to its low T....but it is Skaven even if its a demonic Skaven.
What you're paying the extra for though is the fact its a level 4 caster, with access to some of the nastiest spells in the game, coupled to a solid attacking statline, so long as its properly supported its not half bad.

Will almost never make its points back in CC but the potential to infect a unit with Wither, then Plague or 13th prior to getting killy is not to be sniffed at.
It's less the combat/magic potential that I'm thinking of. The OP specified "for the points" - it's an eye-wateringly expensive but mediocre unit in the Lords slot that can't be your general.

Ero-Senin
24-06-2013, 14:40
Orion wins this hands down by being the worst monster and special character in the game by some way. King of the Wood? Not for long with those stats.

Lorcryst
24-06-2013, 17:42
I'll nominate the Soul Grinder ... looks great, not enough wounds, not enough attacks to kill something, huuuuuuge base size means it'll either charge alone (and die to combat res) or just clip the edge of something ...

At 250 points + options, I love the one I built and painted, but I struggle to kill something with it ...

Bolt Thrower upgrade ? BS 3 ...

Flame Thrower upgrade ? Needs to be in charge range of it's target ...

The Stone Thrower upgrade could be decent, but you'll get maybe two shots with it ...

AND it competes in the Rare section with the (enormously better) Skull Cannons ...

Why
24-06-2013, 19:40
I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone upon whom the spirit of the game is as lost as this.

I'm just showing you that you can't prove anything. I wouldn't do this in a friendly game but in a tournament you can call the judge and say I am modelling for advantage, but ultimately, you wouldn't be able to prove anything and the judge couldn't do anything about it.

And anyway for the jabberslythe to make his points back I would have to kill at least 25 of those white lions. That's hardly a done deal.

Maoriboy007
24-06-2013, 21:12
Bone Giant has my vote...I hate the Zombie Dragon too, the only thing that makes it good is the Lord on its back, and he is generally weaker for being on the expensive monster.

KR3LL
25-06-2013, 03:03
I just started warhammer fantasy. My first two models for the ogre kingdoms was the thundertusk and stonehorn. I purchased them cause they looked amazing and bad ass. Oh how I should of red more about how sucky the big things are. GW really needs to fix this imo. Everything needs to be tougher, with a wounding system more closer to 40k where some str cannot wound higher toughness at all. Also the steadfast sucks for them also, but the game I used my thundertusk he was dead by the end of that first combat phase....easily dead...over killed from weak infantry.

innerwolf
25-06-2013, 06:32
I just started warhammer fantasy. My first two models for the ogre kingdoms was the thundertusk and stonehorn. I purchased them cause they looked amazing and bad ass. Oh how I should of red more about how sucky the big things are. GW really needs to fix this imo. Everything needs to be tougher, with a wounding system more closer to 40k where some str cannot wound higher toughness at all. Also the steadfast sucks for them also, but the game I used my thundertusk he was dead by the end of that first combat phase....easily dead...over killed from weak infantry.

Are you joking? I would have killed to have them in my Lizardmen instead of Stegadons. For 15 points more than a regular Stegadon and 15 points less than an Ancient Stegadon you get one more wound and:
a) awesome protection against cannons and more offensive output (Stonehorn)
b)a great buff and two "warmachine shots"
And above all, a cre which don't suck and can't be killed apart from their mounts.

You see them as sucky, I see them as a steal.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
25-06-2013, 08:56
I really think this thread ended with the first mention of Orion.

This.

Oh and Giants rule.

Wesser
25-06-2013, 10:20
Bone Giant has my vote...I hate the Zombie Dragon too, the only thing that makes it good is the Lord on its back, and he is generally weaker for being on the expensive monster.

Zombie Dragon is only expensive because there's a very expensive fellow on his back, which makes it hard to squeeze in a lvl 4 too.

It's vastly cheaper than other dragons and has that useful -1 to hit albeit with only WS 4 and a somewhat lacking save.

It's healable though, and makes your Lord immune to KB.

No, zombie dragon is hardly a contender in my opinion

Vipoid
25-06-2013, 11:13
No, zombie dragon is hardly a contender in my opinion

The Abysmal Terror on the other hand...

theunwantedbeing
25-06-2013, 11:22
The Abysmal Terror on the other hand...

You do get what you pay for though.

Vipoid
25-06-2013, 11:26
You do get what you pay for though.

Not unless it's cost is -120pts. :p

Malagor
25-06-2013, 12:16
I just started warhammer fantasy. My first two models for the ogre kingdoms was the thundertusk and stonehorn. I purchased them cause they looked amazing and bad ass. Oh how I should of red more about how sucky the big things are. GW really needs to fix this imo. Everything needs to be tougher, with a wounding system more closer to 40k where some str cannot wound higher toughness at all. Also the steadfast sucks for them also, but the game I used my thundertusk he was dead by the end of that first combat phase....easily dead...over killed from weak infantry.
Yeah that's a common thing when going from 40k to fantasy, units don't really work the same way and takes some time before you will see that their true strenght.
Thundertusks and Stonehorns are both very good monsters when it comes to fantasy standards but with different uses.
But they will suffer from cannons just like every monster does.

But my vote goes towards the Beastmen monsters, all of them.

Wesser
25-06-2013, 13:41
The Abysmal Terror on the other hand...

That one is harder to defend though I once had success using him with little Mannfred crushing a unit of Clanrats while getting those lovely power dice. Yes, it died but that meant they werent hitting Manny

It does suck, but mostly because you gotta put a lord on it...if it could be ridden by hero vamp it would be useful...and thats why it don't make my top 3

hads97
25-06-2013, 14:09
Well, Carnosaur has low survivability, but remember its got 5-6 S7 D3 Wounds attacks, so it hits pretty hard. I used it mounted by a naked lizard lord in a list with a light-Slann, and gave quite decent results (giving him I10+WS10 or ASF it became quite a killing machine!)

My ranking would be:
1- Cygor (no doubt about this one!)
2- Jaberslythe
3- Bretonna hyppogriph mount (200 points for that?!)
4- Thundertusk (come on, no one thought about this one?)
5- Gorgon (quite strong, but way overcosted comparing to others)

Ramius4
25-06-2013, 17:22
I really think this thread ended with the first mention of Orion.

Quoted for absolute truth. You could easily cut his point cost in half, and I'm still not sure I'd take him.

Pumpavius
25-06-2013, 17:53
Giants, random attacks that sometimes ruins your strategy, no armor they get killed by arrows easily, they got to be in close combat to do something (unlike the cygor) and poor mobility (unlike the hypogryph)

Urgat
25-06-2013, 18:00
4- Thundertusk (come on, no one thought about this one?)
Huh? It's good, it's got a misfire-free, move and shoot mini rock lobber, it packs a decent punch in melee (plus two ogres, mind), and, most importantly, everything near it gets ASL. Make it charge, say, a unit of chaos warriors (or whatever has ASF and counts on the rerolls...) alongside a unit of bulls, and see if it's bad :p

Ramius4
25-06-2013, 18:44
Giants, random attacks that sometimes ruins your strategy, no armor they get killed by arrows easily, they got to be in close combat to do something (unlike the cygor) and poor mobility (unlike the hypogryph)

Right up until someone reminded me of Orion, I agreed with you. That being said, I still use Giants, but that's just because I love the concept even if they suck 90% of the time.

popisdead
25-06-2013, 19:50
For people who do not say Cygor or Jabberslythe, you people should proxy one in your army.

Ramius4
25-06-2013, 19:52
For people who do not say Cygor or Jabberslythe, you people should proxy one in your army.

I've used them. I've also used Orion... Cygor and Jabberslythe are both overpowered in comparison :p

Maoriboy007
25-06-2013, 21:56
It's vastly cheaper than other dragons and has that useful -1 to hit albeit with only WS 4 and a somewhat lacking save.Is it vastly cheaper though? Its one of the worst dragons in the game for the cost, useless breath weapon, unstable, no real armour, crap weaponskill and initiative along with all the other problems all monsters suffer in the games current meta. Like I said it may not be the very worst but its up there. Only saved by having one of the best CC characters in the game (if you can afford him) and its risking a boatload of points to do so good for a laugh and the occasional hail mary.

It's healable though, and makes your Lord immune to KB.Its unstable which means its easier to bleed wounds than it is to heal them, and possibly kill your Lord in the process, not much of a consideration, and it doesn't really fit into how the army works in most cases, having the heart of your army flying around outside the main body.

Drakcore Bloodtear
25-06-2013, 22:51
My local group doesn't use monsters so often, so I don't know how great (or cheap) it is in comparison but I've always felt the Wyvern to be lacklustre.

Phazael
25-06-2013, 23:40
Orion is better than a Jabber or Cygor, and I know since I have used both. More to the Point, Orion is not a monster, but MI like an Ogre. Stuff him in a treekin unit and he is workable.

Jabber costs more than a Chimerae and cannot fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Nothing has sucked as bad, before or since.

boli
26-06-2013, 00:41
Quoted for absolute truth. You could easily cut his point cost in half, and I'm still not sure I'd take him.

Orion is really bad, vermin lord is much worse... why? Orion can join a unit - sure he's not allowed to get LoS roll but rank resolution means he might actually win combat. Vermin lord will not... ever so you are basically paying double for a grey seer without protection who has to hide behind buildings to survive

Why
26-06-2013, 01:24
Orion can't cast spells and doesn't get thunderstomp. That's why he is worse.

He isn't a monster BTW, but he is the worst special character of all time.

boli
26-06-2013, 01:28
So you either invalidate Orion, or make the VL a bigger target, because that is what he is a walking 500vp

Maoriboy007
26-06-2013, 04:41
Orion can't cast spells and doesn't get thunderstomp. That's why he is worse.

He isn't a monster BTW, but he is the worst special character of all time.Sorry, that particular trophy goes to prince apophas ;)

Kayosiv
26-06-2013, 04:59
Well, Carnosaur has low survivability, but remember its got 5-6 S7 D3 Wounds attacks, so it hits pretty hard. I used it mounted by a naked lizard lord in a list with a light-Slann, and gave quite decent results (giving him I10+WS10 or ASF it became quite a killing machine!)


It has 4 attacks at weaponskill 3. It can get the 5th if it gains frenzy. I have not had it survive more than 1 meaningful combat since 8th edition started, so that attack has never once been relevant.

HereComesTomorrow
26-06-2013, 12:23
It's less the combat/magic potential that I'm thinking of. The OP specified "for the points" - it's an eye-wateringly expensive but mediocre unit in the Lords slot that can't be your general.

I wouldn't call him mediocre, his stats and cost are comparable to a Keeper Of Secrets, and he's much cheaper than them now as he doesn't have to pay for magic levels.

Vipoid
26-06-2013, 12:25
Orion wins this hands down by being the worst monster and special character in the game by some way. King of the Wood? Not for long with those stats.

Sorry for my ignorance, but why is Orion so bad?

theunwantedbeing
26-06-2013, 12:46
Sorry for my ignorance, but why is Orion so bad?

Mostly it's the huge cost and lack of a useful save.
Also he's Unstable which as VC players will tell you is the worst possible rule in the universe.

Makaber
26-06-2013, 13:09
The Ghorgon is expensive, but it isn't that bad, really. It gives you mobility in an army otherwise filled with infantry, and it hits like a truck. Use it to present a mobile, credible threat to put some pressure on your opponent and dictate the flow of the battle, and be selective where you charge, and it does just fine. In the past, I've had mine munch through a Chaos Warrior unit of roughly the same cost before without any problems. Also, let's not forget it's Stubborn on Ld 10. However, I do agree it ought to be cheaper, and it's wound generating ability is a joke.

As for the Jabberslythe, I've read about people using it with good effect in the past. Again, it's more about what you're willing to pay for some mobility in your army, and how that mobility works in synergy with the rest of your list. I guy I know even brought one to a tournament for laughts, where it probably overperformed but won him a couple of games. But again, I'm not saying it's good or anything.

Now the Cygor, he's just a mess. My vote goes to the Cygor.

the_picto
26-06-2013, 14:45
Orion is better than a Jabber or Cygor, and I know since I have used both. More to the Point, Orion is not a monster, but MI like an Ogre. Stuff him in a treekin unit and he is workable.



Are you sure he's a monstrous infantry?


Sorry for my ignorance, but why is Orion so bad?

The problem with orion is that he is ridiculously overpriced. He's nearly 600pts for a guy with toughness 5 and his only protection is a ward that doesn't work against magical attacks. He's got good weapon skill and puts out 6 s7 attacks of the charge, and causes panic in enemies within 18" on the first charge, and the extra dispell dice he provides are nice. It's just the cost, he has the stats of a daemon prince with the price of a fully tooled, lvl4 keeper of secrets.

GrandmasterWang
27-06-2013, 07:51
Yeah, Orion is a monster. I love the model, but he just isn't very good. If you don't mind, what are your rules for him?

ok. Now this is for my 'chill hammer' group. We play him as monstrous infantry as this is what I thought he was.

He is a pick (500 pts ) . This is our system which works great for people who rarely play (easy for them to choose an army)... ie 4 picks. I have well over 10K points in display cabinets so this keeps it simple and easy to remember.

He has worse stats (ws 8 for example). He is effectively a daemon (5+ ward save for everything). Daemonic instability on ld 10 (7th daemon instability).

Loses the extra dispell dice but has a dwarf like +2 to dispell so people can use him as their leader if they wish

his horn is 12 inch aura and can be used after movement (incl after a charge). Panic test causer but for undead and daemons forces them to take a crumble/ instability test.

Comes with 2 hounds in built to pick cost.

The main change is with the hounds. they each function as stand alone sabretusks (same stats as wood elf book) however if within 6 he can look out sir from his hounds. (I can imagine them jumping in).

Has his bow, unchanged however if it's in his front arc he can stand and shoot if his hounds are charged which is why he has become quite a popular character in our chill group (rule of cool beats all). Given he has his 2 hounds (who move independently) this makes them and him quite a tricky combo and gives him that extra bit of uniqueness.. while the hounds live of course. ...

Can only stand and shoot once though so you don't want both hounds charged in the same turn (or him for that matter).


btw prince apophas isn't that bad. he is cheap, flies , causes terror and has a breath. no where near "worst of all time". Bragg the gutsman. .... possible contender.

.... on with the thread. .. it seems cygor is still the front runner. If Orion is MI he is disqualified

MyNameDidntFit
27-06-2013, 08:39
Orion is really bad, vermin lord is much worse... why? Orion can join a unit - sure he's not allowed to get LoS roll but rank resolution means he might actually win combat.
Static Combat Resolution? You know he's in the WE army book, right? ;)

Phazael
27-06-2013, 15:37
According to the main rulebook Orion is MI and since he is a forest spirit, he can join sufficiently large treekin units to get a lookout sir roll. He is not amazing, but he hits pretty hard, has a mobile bolt thrower, makes wild riders core, and adds two bonus dispel dice. Hardly the worst special character of all time, let alone monster.

the_picto
27-06-2013, 17:04
Double post.

the_picto
27-06-2013, 17:06
According to the main rulebook Orion is MI and since he is a forest spirit, he can join sufficiently large treekin units to get a lookout sir roll. He is not amazing, but he hits pretty hard, has a mobile bolt thrower, makes wild riders core, and adds two bonus dispel dice. Hardly the worst special character of all time, let alone monster.

Fair enough. Thanks for clearing that up. Guess he's disqualified on a technicality.

It's not Orion's abilities that are the problem, aside from the conditional ward and the bow not ignoring armour I like his rules. The problem is the price you have to pay. He's just shy of 600pts for a model that should probably cost closer to 400-450pts. Ignoring for a moment that Orion isn't actually a monster, are any of the other monsters mentioned here over costed by 140+pts?

Clockwork
27-06-2013, 22:17
It has 4 attacks at weaponskill 3. It can get the 5th if it gains frenzy. I have not had it survive more than 1 meaningful combat since 8th edition started, so that attack has never once been relevant.

Yeah. Saying a Carnosaur is good with 450+ points of Light Slann magic buffs doesn't really say much in its favour.

Sadly, in this edition Carnosaurs suffer from the same problems that lone-Kroxigor and Cold One Cavalry has: anything you want to put them into that they will be good at, is likely to kill them first. Carnosaurs have high strength and d3 wounds, right? Dragons and Monstrous Infantry, which those things will be really good against, will probably kill the Carnosaur first. Likewise, Kroxigor are good against anything with 4+ armour save or better and T4; but those things which have it are likely to kill the Kroxigor first. I'm not really sure what Cold One Cavalry should do well against, but at an insane 35 points a pop there should be something.

These are hangovers from 7th edition where charging was more critical. Hopefully this will be corrected in the next 2 months.

I don't think Carnosaurs are the worst monster out there - Orion and the Beastmen rares fall into that category - but they aren't great, and I've tried using them a couple of times.

GrandmasterWang
28-06-2013, 02:54
Nothing is overcosted by 140 pts imo but to get an accurate measurement you would need to take the overcosted Ness as a % of total cost. Some monsters only cost 140 points!

I don't have the lizard book and am basing my opinions off of his scroll of binding. is the lizard one more expensive? .

I agree the carnosaur isn't great but not the worst. D3 wounds is worth a fair bit even if it rarely comes into play

Why
28-06-2013, 07:04
Well to be honest the cygor needs about a 100 point reduction, you could easily bump that to 140.

Clockwork
28-06-2013, 08:55
I agree the carnosaur isn't great but not the worst. D3 wounds is worth a fair bit even if it rarely comes into play

I would assume that its to try and balance out the low WS (so even if it only hits once, it has a good chance of doing some damage).

But as I said; sadly, most things you want it to rip apart will probably kill it first.

Harwammer
18-07-2013, 20:25
I don't think the jabber would be OP for 135.

Wesser
19-07-2013, 07:19
I don't think the jabber would be OP for 135.

Hmm, at that pricetag though only the fact that it is a rare unit, thus limiting how many you can take, would keep people from just trolling by taking a bunch.

Aside from that, Thunderstomp and flying alone is enough to take it over a cost of 135, and nevermind terror and it's gravy rules

GrandmasterWang
19-07-2013, 07:38
Agree completely with Wesser 're:135 point jabberslythe.

That said it's still not as good as a khannon but that is possibly the single most under pointed unit in warhammer.

Given the model size (I like it, want to get one) I think more wounds/ toughness would be justified. My gaming group has given the jabberslythe a 5+ regeneration save which helps it a lot (roll for saves after bile blood). Seems fluffy also.

malisteen
19-07-2013, 13:43
While certainly not the worst monsters, the vamp counts Zombie Dragon and Abyssal Terror certainly rate as fairly terrible. Both require vamp lords to ride them, which means they're eating up lord points, and, when combined with their rider, will prevent you from fielding a second vamp lord in any reasonably sized game. Which means the lord on monster must be your army general, and slapping an 'apply cannonball here' sticker to your general and only lord choice in a faction as character dependent as Vamp Counts is an easy way to lose games. And that's before you even count the extra punishment vamp armies suffer when their general dies. And before you even consider that neither the terror nor the dragon are particularly effective stat-wise, AND the zombie dragon's cloud of flies only works in base contact so the second and third ranks are free to beat on your character & monster unhindered - which is a ton of attacks with the ZD's colossal base, AND you can't even use your big monster to support your core infantry in close combat, due to the crumbling rules, which allows your opponents to kill your monster just by wailing away on your skeletons or zombies.

Wesser
19-07-2013, 14:14
As for the Zombie Dragon

1. Play vs. HE as much as I do

2. Put Blenderlord on Top with Nightshroud

3. March the rest of your army off the table in arrogance and use only the Vampire Lord to wreck his army

4. Drink tears of opponent


Oh and by the way. Abyssal terror is actually only bad by association (aka only rideable by indispensable lord). If it could be ridden by a hero or be taken as an unridden choice, I'm sure it would be taken. This fact alone disqualifies it from being truly Cygor/Hippogryph horrible

Vipoid
19-07-2013, 14:31
Oh and by the way. Abyssal terror is actually only bad by association (aka only rideable by indispensable lord). If it could be ridden by a hero or be taken as an unridden choice, I'm sure it would be taken.

No, the fact that you have to take a Vampire Lord on it is what makes it completely useless - as opposed to just plain horrible.

If you could take a hero vampire on one, then you might at least see a few around occasionally. But, even then, it doesn't really add anything to the vampire - it just doesn't completely cripple your army. It's pathetic in combat (and vampires are already decent here), and has no armour save to speak of. That last part is where it really falls down, because it's just so easy to kill the vampire's mount out from under him (most likely killing him from CR). See, a Vampire Lord on a good mount can at least be kitted to carry a battle, even if his mount sucks. A hero-vampire... not so much.

MLP
19-07-2013, 15:56
Jabberslythe M8WS4BS4S5T5W5I3A5Ld9biting jaw and catching claw (hand weapon). Aura of Madness; Fly; Immune to Psychology; Large Target; Poisoned Attacks; Slythey Tongue; Spurting Bile-blood; Terror; Monster.

Chimera M6WS4BS0S6T5W4I2A6Ld5Flaming Breath; Regenerating Flesh. Fiend Tail; Fly; Large Target; Scaly Skin (4+); Terror; Monster.

Everyone seems to thing the Jabberslyth is terrible but everyone loves the Chimera. After comparing the two they do seem very similar. Is the jabber really that bad?

Urgat
19-07-2013, 16:06
I guess it's the cost and the fact chimeras are special and not rare.

BigbyWolf
19-07-2013, 16:09
Jabberslythe M8WS4BS4S5T5W5I3A5Ld9biting jaw and catching claw (hand weapon). Aura of Madness; Fly; Immune to Psychology; Large Target; Poisoned Attacks; Slythey Tongue; Spurting Bile-blood; Terror; Monster.

Chimera M6WS4BS0S6T5W4I2A6Ld5Flaming Breath; Regenerating Flesh. Fiend Tail; Fly; Large Target; Scaly Skin (4+); Terror; Monster.

Everyone seems to thing the Jabberslyth is terrible but everyone loves the Chimera. After comparing the two they do seem very similar. Is the jabber really that bad?

Isn't the Jabber like 100 points or so more than the Chimera?

Rakariel
19-07-2013, 16:12
Its because the Chimera has regen, an armor save, a breath weapon and is special as urgat said. Its far more resilient than the jabber and thats a big difference. The same reason why a Hydra is good (apart from the low point cost).

Harwammer
20-07-2013, 07:29
Hmm, at that pricetag though only the fact that it is a rare unit, thus limiting how many you can take, would keep people from just trolling by taking a bunch.

Aside from that, Thunderstomp and flying alone is enough to take it over a cost of 135, and nevermind terror and it's gravy rules

Yea, obviously this pricing would be for the beastmen version, not SoM where it could actually kill wizards on fulcrums with its madness.

Both cygor and jabber are much better in SoM.



I guess it's the cost and the fact chimeras are special and not rare.

Apart from being more spammable jabbers would be even less desriable in the special section as this is where the good stuff is (bestigors, harpies, razorgor). At least in rare jabbers compete with uncompetative things :D

GrandmasterWang
20-07-2013, 08:40
Key difference is the saves. Chimera has them, jabberslythe doesn't.

This is fine on its own, but when you consider that the jabberslythe is actually MORE expensive than the chimera it's obvious that things are not right

Urgat
22-07-2013, 07:11
Its because the Chimera has regen

For some reason I thought the jab had regen, even though I have the whole list of rules written right above my post :p Yep, that would come as the first reason indeed, then.

Phazael
22-07-2013, 15:48
Yeah at 135 points, Jabbers would still not be taken. Half of their rules have no practical effect in 8th edition and they are insanely vulnerable to being killed by even the meekest of troops. S5 Thunderstomps just are not that scarey, or VC players would be spamming Vargulfs, who are both cheaper, tougher, and better in close combat.

Shadeseraph
23-07-2013, 00:50
As for the Zombie Dragon

1. Play vs. HE as much as I do

2. Put Blenderlord on Top with Nightshroud

3. March the rest of your army off the table in arrogance and use only the Vampire Lord to wreck his army

4. Drink tears of opponent

Yeah, lately my archmages are picking High Magic quite a lot, as my usual opponent loves to do this. An arcane unforging or two later, a crapload of MM and RBT fire and some extra Sister fire, and it ends dying. But I tend to just avoid him instead, and kill anything else. It is quite a horrible guy to fight against with High Elves, although that set-up means no Lvl 4 on most games.

As for the Abyssal Terror... the HE griffon was in a similar situation, and it gained a lot by being available to Nobles, and not only Lords, to the point where you can even see list with some. But WS5, I5, 4A and fairly good upgrades makes all the difference, even if the Abyssal Terror is a bit cheaper.


Yeah at 135 points, Jabbers would still not be taken. Half of their rules have no practical effect in 8th edition and they are insanely vulnerable to being killed by even the meekest of troops. S5 Thunderstomps just are not that scarey, or VC players would be spamming Vargulfs, who are both cheaper, tougher, and better in close combat.

Varghulf are quite a good option, and I've seen a lot of VC players using them. The problem is that they compete with Terrorgheists and Mortis Engines in the rare slot, which are vastly better. Varghulf were taken quite a lot in the previous book during its 8th edition incarnation.

Why
23-07-2013, 06:08
At 135 points I would take 2 jabbers.
Just because they can kill warmachines like crazy.

Wesser
23-07-2013, 06:43
Yeah at 135 points, Jabbers would still not be taken. Half of their rules have no practical effect in 8th edition and they are insanely vulnerable to being killed by even the meekest of troops. S5 Thunderstomps just are not that scarey, or VC players would be spamming Vargulfs, who are both cheaper, tougher, and better in close combat.

Well Varghulfs are more expensive than 135 pts, and frankly at 135 Jabbers would be viable as chaff alone nevermind combat potential. You are overreacting by large margin now...

Also the only thing keeping my VC from spamming Varghulfs all the time is that Terrorghiests are so damn useful and because I adore Blood Knights.

Varghulfs are a splendid monster

Steapa
24-07-2013, 22:16
I have a hard time with any WoC player complaining about monsters. The daemon prince is ridiculously powerful and to stack any other supremely strong monster with that in my eyes would be a bit much. So what if the brutes aren't equivalent to other monsters... They shouldn't be

tankrothchild
26-07-2013, 18:23
Whoever said soulgrinder is the worst needs to read the rules. Sure the upgrades are not the greatest, but caught by the claw might be one of the best mechanics a monster can have. For example, I ran my soulgrinder into a stonehorn, Stonehorn failed it's initiative 2 test, take a st 10 hit with d6 wounds. Winner soulgrinder.

This is between Orion and the beastmen monsters.

Lorcryst
26-07-2013, 18:29
Whoever said soulgrinder is the worst needs to read the rules. Sure the upgrades are not the greatest, but caught by the claw might be one of the best mechanics a monster can have. For example, I ran my soulgrinder into a stonehorn, Stonehorn failed it's initiative 2 test, take a st 10 hit with d6 wounds. Winner soulgrinder.

This is between Orion and the beastmen monsters.

That was me :p

BTW, I agree on the Daemonbone Claw and Caught by the Claw, it's the hefty 250 points base, the huuuuuuuge base size and the price of the shooting upgrades that irk me ...

Scammel
26-07-2013, 18:33
Stonehorn failed it's initiative 2 test, take a st 10 hit with d6 wounds. Winner soulgrinder.


It's D3 actually, thanks to the Stonehorn's Stone Skeleton.

Liber
26-07-2013, 21:30
I just wanted too say that the Jabbersclythe IMO can't be the worst monster for points. There are other examples of greater points desparities than the Jabber, and honestly, even not considering its special rules (which aren't completely useless) it flies and causes terror. As others have said that counts for something.