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Why
22-06-2013, 20:58
So that's what I'm asking is this spell considered to be more powerful than it actually is?

I think it is overrated for the following reasons,
1. On average it only causes 14 wounds, all that for 25+ to cast:confused:
2. It can only affect infantry, so you can't even do those 14 wounds to high value targets like monstrous infantry or calvary.
3. It has a huge casting value, 25+ is very high.


Edit:
Why it is strong:
Can be cast into combat
The powerscroll can let you cast it on very few dice, when combined with warpstone tokens you can sneak it in at the end of a magic phase quite easily


Let's compare it to some of the BRB spells,

Final transmutation,
Boosted it has 36" range, and is only 18+ to cast.
It can affect all unit types, but it is most effective against infantry and cavalry.

It's damage depends on the size of the unit it is targeting, let's use 30 elves as an example.
The dreaded 13 will on average kill 14, final transmutation kills 10.
Against 60 elves the dreaded 13 still only kills 14, but final transmutation is killing 20.

When compared to Final transmutation it is better against smaller units but it has a shorter range than the boosted version and is harder to cast.


The Dwellers Below
When boosted it has the same range but is only 21+ to cast.
The Dwellers below can affect all unit types.

Against those same 30 elves the dwellers below will kill 15, and if an elf wizard was in the unit that wizard has a 50% chance to die, the dreaded 13 will only on average still just kill 14 of those elves.

How about chaos warriors? Not many people take these with the new book but alright...
30 chaos warriors lose 14 to The 13th spell and only 10 to dwellers below.
Now if those chaos warriors are at 10 models for some reason dwellers on kills about 3 but the 13th spell wipes out the whole units and makes 10 clanrats. So in this situation the dreaded 13 is stronger.

Dwellers Below is a much stronger spell than the dreaded 13 in most situations.


So by looking at the evidence The Curse of The Horned rat is only better than these two spells if the target is a small infantry unit. Which are rare in 8th edition.

Urgat
22-06-2013, 21:19
I honestly have no idea if the 13th is overpowered or not, as I've never faced it, but what I know is that both the spells you're comparing it to are among the contenders for most powerful damage spells in 8th, and that BRB spells are not difficult enough to cast in most instances. How about comparing it to armybook spells, which are much more fairly balanced? For instance, compare it to the curse of the bad moon or foot of gork or the maw or whatever? I honestly don't know what the result would be, but you'd certainly have a stronger argument if the 13th spell does look weaker against these. because telling me a spell isn't so powerful because it's weaker than dwaellers? It's like telling me dual abombs are a-ok because dual chimeras are worse.

Blkc57
22-06-2013, 21:28
My big problem with the Dreaded 13th is that since it was written in some quasi-surreal world between Game editions, its wording tends to be funky there are alot of loopholes in the spell wording that allows someone to really get nasty if they don't care about sportsmanship. For instance, there is nothing that technically prevents the spell in its wording from being cast into a combat. Its casting restrictions only dictate that the target be in LoS of the caster. Its the same problem with other spells in the Skaven book that don't have a logical spell type or particularly well worded casting restrictions in their rules. Dread 13th also tends to be auto death for any small units so it tends to over punish players who go MSU with infantry, encouraging further progress down the path of Deathstars. The fact that it has the 25+ cost is immaterial as most of the time you want to irresistibly cast it anyway. It also happens to be the perfect tool to combine with a power scroll, since it has no lower casting level.

Vipoid
22-06-2013, 21:31
I imagine one of the reasons people think it's strong is that, whilst it might not seem as damaging as some other spells, your opponent can do absolutely nothing if the spell resolves. Their models don't even get a characteristic test against it - they're just gone with no saves at all. And, if there's one thing people really hate, it's feeling powerless against a particular effect.

Furthermore, it's even worse when you consider that it can insta-kill characters too. I mean, most of the #6 spells in the BRB will only affect characters on 5s or 6s - with Dreaded 13th if it can affect a character then that character is dead and there's nothing his owner can do about it. No initiative test, no strength test, no other role - he's just dead.

Now, granted, most units will start with too many models for their characters to be at risk from this spell. But, what about after a few turns of shooting and magic against their unit? Suddenly the spell might start to look a lot more threatening.

Also, whilst the average is 14, this spell has massive potential to do more than that - mainly because it loses nothing from the extra rolls. To elaborate, with e.g. if a magic missile, rolls above average, it still has to wound and then get past any armour/ward saves the unit may have. So, a little over average probably won't equate to many extra casualties. On the other hand, with Dreaded 13th, there is only one roll. You don't need to wound, and your opponent gets no saves or other test to avoid the wounds. So, every point you roll over average equates to a model killed - which can easily be the difference between a character in that unit living or dying.

Why
22-06-2013, 21:32
Do we still use the updated powerscroll? If so I would have included that in my original post.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2013, 21:49
Do we still use the updated powerscroll? If so I would have included that in my original post.

It makes it a 13 to cast! If anything it would be a sin not to do this.

As to the original question.
Some people are of the opinion that you get to ignore all targeting restrictions for any spell without a type.
As such, you can end out casting it into combat, and if on a Screaming Bell you'll get a 360 line of sight rather than having to use your forward arc.
So that would make the spell quite overpowered compared to the other uber spells available.

If you stick to the casting restrictions, it's not that bad.
As uber spells go, it's quite reasonable given the high cost and limited target availability (even if it can be horrific vs smaller units, especially on a good roll).

Why
22-06-2013, 23:32
So the White Dwarf Powerscroll is the correct version?

That's nice to know, I just avoided using that item because I kept getting into arguments about which version was the correct one.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2013, 23:51
So the White Dwarf Powerscroll is the correct version?

That's nice to know, I just avoided using that item because I kept getting into arguments about which version was the correct one.

It's in the Errata on the GW site Click me! (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180060a_WARHAMMER_RULEBOOK_v1.8_APRIL13.pdf)

Why
23-06-2013, 00:40
Thanks, I'm changing my list right now to include it.

Don Zeko
23-06-2013, 02:37
The other advantage of the spell is that characteristic tests decline in destructive power as the targeted unit dwindles, while this one doesn't. That means that you can easily wipe out a unit (and the characters within it) entirely, whereas the other nuke spells can only really cripple units, requiring other units to mop up and allowing characters to escape to undamaged units.

Soundwave
23-06-2013, 05:17
It is still quite nasty although 6 dicing spells every turn has its own obligations i am more scared of plague one instance my dark elves where facing off against a clan pestilence army in a 5000pntr and it went hectic killing around 70 models in a single casting ouch!

m1acca1551
23-06-2013, 06:25
Like all #6 spells it is horrible not based on the actual ruling or its purpose but in its ability to be spammed with no real concern for what may actually happen to the caster.

The only reason why #6 spells are so bad and hated is because they are an almost no brainer option that maximises reward over risk, so any #6 spell no matter if it is the most powerful #6 spell or not, they are bad and can hurt.

Spiney Norman
23-06-2013, 08:12
The only army I have where this is a real headache is my wood elves, where I have no more than 10-15 models in each unit at most, and you can be that the unit that is going to cop the spell firth is the one with my spellweaver tucked safely inside.

boli
23-06-2013, 12:25
People consider it overpowered because:

* characters can be instance killed
*even a bad roll forces the target unit into combat, which can mess up movement / deployment
* 24" which means you basically destroy a small(archer) unitand then have a unit behind enemy lines

Its only saving grace is 25+ so you are required to 6-dice it most of the time.

But then I consider most magic to be overpowered...

Lord Solar Plexus
23-06-2013, 12:53
I have no idea how strong or weak "people" consider this spell to be, so I cannot really vote or say whether they are correct or not. The question as such is phrased very imprecisely and not to the point.

Your reasoning is not correct. 14 kills neutralizes your usual horde and makes some 300+ points combat inefficient, ergo it is strong. At least I wouldn't subscribe to the notion that only something that does more than 14 wounds is strong. The comparison to BRB spells is irrelevant: Skaven cannot take those other spells, and you can only show that those are sometimes stronger, not how strong or weak the spell in question is or if it is. The 13th is strong against small units and hordes.

What supposedly more optimal substitute do people take for Warriors with the new book?

Borgomos
23-06-2013, 15:01
Grey Seers can get it by default by swapping out any unfavorable spells, which also allows you to always get it when you want it, and skip it if the opponent plays Ogres\Brets\EmpireKnights...

I think if they removed the way it auto-kills characters it would be perfect.

IcedCrow
23-06-2013, 16:12
Spells that auto kill should not exist imo unless it had killing blow.

Fighty heroes dont have swords that when they hit auto kill.

IcedCrow
23-06-2013, 16:13
This is the reason the current edition has stagnated (imo) into a warmachine type clone where everyone is compelled to level 4 or go home.

Djekar
24-06-2013, 13:52
I'd say if the meta is a lot of cav, MI, MC and/or Monsters, then it is very weak. If (like mine) your meta has a lot of infantry ... I shudder to think. I think the strength of it lies in 2 truths: 1) It is essentially one of two "sig" spell for grey seers. If you don't want/need it for a certain game (e.g. playing ogres/ knight bus empire) then leave it at home - you still have that grey seer doing other cool things. If you do need it - guess what, no need to roll, just take that sucker! 2) 4d6 without any saves wrecks *all kinds* of units. Even if you think that 14 is inconsequential, soften that unit up with shooting first (which there is an abundance of in most Skaven lists) and suddenly the spell becomes a lot scarier.

I was aghast when the spell first came out, but it fits right in with the rest of our 8th ed super spells now.

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 14:32
What supposedly more optimal substitute do people take for Warriors with the new book?

Chariots mostly synergyze better with the rest of the army.

yeknoMehT
24-06-2013, 14:59
This is the reason the current edition has stagnated (imo) into a warmachine type clone where everyone is compelled to level 4 or go home.

Curious what you mean by this - are you referring to the way the game has a tendency to devolve into who kills the Lvl 4 first, or some other more subtle warmachine/hordes comparison?

Vipoid
24-06-2013, 15:17
Curious what you mean by this - are you referring to the way the game has a tendency to devolve into who kills the Lvl 4 first, or some other more subtle warmachine/hordes comparison?

Well, I could be wrong, but I'd assumed he was simply referring to the fact that an army with a Lv4 has a massive starting-advantage over an army that only includes Lv2s or no magic at all.

Ideally, a Lv4 wizard shouldn't be orders of magnitude better than Lv2s or no magic at all - especially since they're often incredibly cheap.

In addition, it's not even as if the Lv4 person has spent more on magic than his opponent. I mean, if a Lv4 is 200pts and a Lv2 is 100, then someone with 2 Lv2 wizards has spent just as much on magic. However, rather than being on equal footing (from an equal investment) they'll be at a massive handicap because the other player will be getting an extra +2 to cast and dispel.

IcedCrow
24-06-2013, 15:29
Curious what you mean by this - are you referring to the way the game has a tendency to devolve into who kills the Lvl 4 first, or some other more subtle warmachine/hordes comparison?

* who kills the level 4 has a massive advantage. In warmachine, killing the enemy caster first often means you win

* mega spells that bear the brunt of the heavy lifting. they are what people tend to rely on to do most of the work, sometimes like with mindrazor in conjunction with a unit, other times like with pit of shades or the 13th spell to destroy or cripple a main unit, whereas in warmachine, the units and jacks seem at least in my experience to be ancillary to the warcaster's spells also doing the majority of the heavy lifting.

It is my opinion that Mat Ward put the #6 spells and things like mindrazor in the brb because
* it is a general lore that will be given access to a lot of different forces
* they are very powerful
* it is to try to appeal to those people that like warmachine for the super combos to try to entice them back to fantasy, where there are now super combos functioning similarly. Not identically! But very similarly.

If you don't take the level 4, people feel that they are at a massive disadvantage since:
* fighty lords don't have a sword that can kill up to half or more of an entire regiment by themselves
* leadership bonuses mean less and less as there are cheap items like the standard of discipline and crown of command which offset them
* fighty lords need to be in combat which takes time to arrange. level 4s start the game six-dicing.

yeknoMehT
24-06-2013, 16:14
* who kills the level 4 has a massive advantage. In warmachine, killing the enemy caster first often means you win


I thought this might have been what you were referring to - I play both games (and more, but no need to go into that here!), so was just curious if you meant much beyond the caster kill analogy.

I've heard some managing just fine without a level 4 (dwarfs don't have much of a choice in the matter really).

Not sure about the 'super combo' reasoning, as fantasy has been about combos of magic items and other special rules for a long time, the difference lies in the ability to actually combo on an individual model (whereas warmachine only allows combinations of different models).

Still, I agree that the significant power of a level 4 over multiple lower level wizards is too much - as Vipoid mentioned, two level 2s might cost similar to a level 4, but are far below the effectiveness of a level 4.

I don't know if you could change anything to alter that balance - perhaps making channelling easier would be effective (either adding D3 dice on a successful channel, or making it apply on a 4+ or something). I'm seeing immediate problems with that too (goblins taking a level 4 and a shedload of levels ones to ensure 10-12 dice per phase for the level 4 to spam dice...)

Vipoid
24-06-2013, 16:27
I don't know if you could change anything to alter that balance

I think the best route would be to stop wizards adding their level to the casting and dispelling values.

Either remove it outright (and maybe lower some casting values accordingly), or make it that wizard level is deducted from the cast value needed. So, if a spell is cast on a 10+, a Lv2 wizard will cast it on 8+ and a Lv4 will cast it on a 6+. Basically, spells are still easier to cast with higher level wizards, but aren't harder to dispel. Likewise, since CL isn't added to dispelling, Lv4s don't get a big advantage in dispelling.

IcedCrow
24-06-2013, 16:34
5th edition fantasy was largely combo and uber powered heroes. 6th and 7th kind of fell back from that. 7th was more about who charged with their cavalry line first and succeeded at the 1/8" shuffle better than combination-style playing. Combos still existed, don't get me wrong, but they weren't like what 5th was, and what 8th is now.

8th is GW trying to entice WM players to the game. Which is a failure IMO as GW should focus on the people that like WHFB for what WM is not and vice versa.

The point of going for the level 4 is the ability to greatly increase the chances of getting one of the Mat Ward spells of doom and giving the +4 to dispel the Mat Ward spells of doom that you are likely to face.

I feel that if spells like mindrazor and the no save of any kind spells like 13th, pit, etc... did not exist how they exist now that people wouldn't be as compelled to always go for the level 4.

Urgat
24-06-2013, 16:36
I'm seeing immediate problems with that too (goblins taking a level 4 and a shedload of levels ones to ensure 10-12 dice per phase for the level 4 to spam dice...)

Spamming small waaagh spells, what a scary prospect :p

HereComesTomorrow
24-06-2013, 17:09
I think it's over-rated. But then, I rarely cast it. I always take it, but I rarely feel the need to use it, and prefer spells like Plague or Wither.

And when I do cast it, I rarely make the 25. Besides, if it works and turn a unit to rats, all a small unit of clan rats will do is break and cause panic in my other units.

Myster2
24-06-2013, 19:05
The problem with the 13th isn't that it is overpowered to the extreme its that its overpowered in an army that has rules that allow it to be abused. Such as allowing it to be cast in close combat.

The OP said that the magic number is 14. I play lizardmen and often times we have a 450pt infantry model in a bunker of 20 units. This means the Skaven player only has to reduce that unit by 6 and IF a 13th to essentially win the game.

Not only is this an issue but as the poster above said, rarely do skaven actually need to use the 13th as they have other magic that is just as strong that costs less, has little downside and has the variety to be useful in any situation against any army.

boli
25-06-2013, 00:01
It can't be cast into combat... even with slaves. Slave rule only refers to ranged attacks not magic.

Just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can.

Why
25-06-2013, 01:11
That's the thing, it doesn't say you can't. So, unless someone or something tells you that you can't then you can.

Jwk47
25-06-2013, 04:05
It is my opinion that Mat Ward put the #6 spells and things like mindrazor in the brb because
* it is a general lore that will be given access to a lot of different forces
* they are very powerful
* it is to try to appeal to those people that like warmachine for the super combos to try to entice them back to fantasy, where there are now super combos functioning similarly. Not identically! But very similarly.

What about as a means of of balancing the rest of the rules which when played straight out of the book encourage deathstars?

The dreaded 13th is just as good as it's reputation would have us believe in my opinion.

SlaaneshSlave
25-06-2013, 05:21
This is the filth. I have done it often. I had to scale back and stop taking this setup as it started making people changes their lists just because of me.


1. So... you cast Plague and Wither a couple times. Thins out the unit and uses up the scroll.

2. Next turn throw all dice except 1 to cast Plague again (hope to not roll IR). Opponent uses all dice to dispel.

3. Cast the 13th with that 1 die and vape the unit before it sees combat. Powerscroll drops casting to a 13, Grey Seer is a lvl 4 so need a 9 to cast. Use 2-3 Warpstones to roll 9-14.

4. Eat Skalm to heal any wounds from the warptokens.

Lord Solar Plexus
25-06-2013, 05:21
* who kills the level 4 has a massive advantage. In warmachine, killing the enemy caster first often means you win

* mega spells that bear the brunt of the heavy lifting. they are what people tend to rely on to do most of the work

Nonsense. Who kills the General, BSB or STeam Tank has a massive advantage, too. What's next? Will you call chess being made more Warmachine-like because whoever kills the Queen has a massive advantage? ;)

Mega spells, as already explained a couple of times, do not do the heavy lifting.

boli
25-06-2013, 08:24
That's the thing, it doesn't say you can't. So, unless someone or something tells you that you can't then you can.

You can't cast it in combat. There are several spells in the book it says you CAN; and cracks call which is a straight line so is not targeted. But D13 has no wording whatsoever so you cannot. Skaven players who claim they cannot are trying to pull a fast on on you.

IcedCrow
25-06-2013, 13:33
Nonsense. Who kills the General, BSB or STeam Tank has a massive advantage, too. What's next? Will you call chess being made more Warmachine-like because whoever kills the Queen has a massive advantage? ;)

Mega spells, as already explained a couple of times, do not do the heavy lifting.

Killing the general, bsb, or steam tank does not give a massive advantage, unless the general was the level 4. Certainly killing anything gives you an advantage, but not like the level 4.

Why is it do you feel then that seemingly the vast majority of players feel compelled to always take a level 4?

Vipoid
25-06-2013, 14:09
Nonsense. Who kills the General, BSB or STeam Tank has a massive advantage, too.

I'm not following your logic here.

There is an advantage to killing anything in the enemy army, since it means they no longer have it. However, with a few exceptions, none of the above strike me as a massive advantage when killed - certainly not when compared to a Lv4.

General - There's obviously n advantage to killing him, but unless you're facing Vampire Counts it's rarely going to be an overwhelming advantage. In fact, if anything, it will more likely be an advantage because the general was also a Lv4 wizard.

BSB - Maybe if he has a powerful magic banner, although there aren't many of those these days (at least, not ones that need BSBs to carry them). Most armies will want to win combat anyway, whilst the ones that tend towards hordes and attrition will more likely be making use of Steadfast - making the BSB a backup, rather than something necessary to keep them in combat.

Although, losing both the BSB and the general could be very painful for an army. But, if just one is lost, the other can often compensate reasonably well for the absence of the other.

To put it another way, the above two tend to be passive advantages (not always, but usually). Essentially, they only really come into play when something else goes wrong for your opponent (e.g. losing combat). On the other hand, killing your opponent's only Lv4 has 2 immediate effects - firstly, their magic phase will likely be crippled (possibly even removed completely if they have no other wizards). And, second, their ability to dispel your spells will be reduced considerably. Basically, removing that one model can allow you to dominate an entire phase of the game.

Don't get me wrong - there's obviously an advantage in killing a general or BSB - I just don't think it's comparable to the advantage gained from killing a Lv4 wizard.

With regard to the Steam Tank... I just don't see it. There's obviously an advantage to killing the thing (assuming it doesn't kill itself ;), but I just don't think it has the same weight of influence as a Lv4.

hads97
25-06-2013, 14:38
Furthermore, it's even worse when you consider that it can insta-kill characters too. I mean, most of the #6 spells in the BRB will only affect characters on 5s or 6s - with Dreaded 13th if it can affect a character then that character is dead and there's nothing his owner can do about it. No initiative test, no strength test, no other role - he's just dead.



That's what makes it. In an army with plenty of shooting, bombing engineers, and template spells, it's not hard to reduce a unit to 10-12 figures. Then, you can instantly wipe it out, toghether with all the characters in it.