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Shadeseraph
23-06-2013, 21:57
Well, my first BR here. I've tried before, but I always forget a couple things about how rounds went, so I end stoping halfway. This time, however, I was able to remember pretty much everything.

Well, I was happily looking for a game in UB, when suddenly a fairly friendly guy appeared. After some smal talk, we decided to give it a try, me with the list I've been trying lately.

For starters, let's talk lists:

My High Elves:
Lvl 4 w/ Book of Hoeth. I dislike tailoring lores, and I was thinking on testing Heavens before the game, so I rolled that.
BSB w/ Barded steed, Dragon armor, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Lance
1x12,1x15 Archers, Mus
2x5 Reavers
1x8 Silver Helms w/ shield, Champ,SB
1x5 Dragon Princes
1x15 White Lions, Champ, Mus
1x15 White Lions, Champ, Banner of the Eternal Flame, Mus
1x15 Phoenix Guard, Razor Banner, Mus
Frostheart Phoenix
2x5 Sisters
2 RBTs

His WoC list:
5 Chaos Chariots with mark of slaanesh
4x5 Chaos Warhounds
12 Chaos Trolls
2x4 Skullcrushers with ensorcelled swords
1 Daemon Prince with fly, mark of nurgle, familiar, charmed shield, lvl4 lore of nurgle, daemonic flight and a couple more things I can't remember
1 Exalted Hero BSB on disk with talisman of preservation, enchanted shield, mark of tzeentch, reroll 1s on ward saves and maybe something else.

We rolled for spells, and I got Heavens 0,1,4,5, while he got Nurgle 1,2,3,4,6.

Aaaand there we go:

Deployment

I manage to choose side, but also manage to deploy first, which is a bummer. I decide to castle on a corner, making use of some impassable terrain on the middle of the battlefield, as I feel I can't outdeploy him with that kind of list. As expected, I start with reavers, and he starts with warhounds, and everything else fits in place bit by bit. His last unit is the big block of trolls, while my last one is one of the units of sisters.

As for vanguards, nothing really unexpected. The grey arrows mark the vanguard moves.

172932

We roll for turn, and he wins thanks to the +1.

Warriors of Chaos, turn 1

His first turn is quite straightforward. Everything just moves forward, with one of his warhounds units trying to stop the phoenixes from doing... something. The only noteworthy maneuver is he placing his BSB in front of my reavers, in a way they block the charge lanes of my other units. The magic phase is also quite unremarkable with him managing to cast +2 to the Trolls T and rolling 2 for the lore effect. I dispell the remaining spells without much problem.

172933

High Elves, turn 1

My first turn is quite crazy. To be fair, I am usually quite aggressive, so this isn't unusual. The phoenixes charge the warhounds, as they want a free charge lane the next round. After some thinking, I decide to charge with my DPs into his warhounds too. I needed something to block those trolls for a turn, and I needed the reavers to block those chariots. on retrospect, I should have blocked the hounds in front of the trolls with one of the sisters units, and instead charge the other warhound unit with the DPs. The unit was a lot more angled, so the DPs would have left the battlefield, leaving them in an excelent charge possition for the next round. Maybe I should have tried charging with the SH against one of the chariots, but they were too far for my tastes, and the prospect of a missing charge with the bsb on the flank wasn't appealing.
The remaining moves are a bit complex. Both reavers units are set up to force bad charges, specially the right one. The position would mean he could only charge with one of the skullcrushers, and only on the flank. the other SC unit was hindered by that SC unit and by the impassable terrain.
The phoenix, one unit of sisters and the reavers moved to block the chariots charge lanes, while the rest of the army moved forward to avoid the exalted hero.
Finally, the archmage moved from the archer unit to the remaining Sisters unit. Another failiure on my side, I should have moved the unit towards the building, I think.
The magic phase was quite good. 5/6, and I managed to cast everything but comet. Iceshard on the trolls (In my defense, I didn't know how the vomit worked), Area Harmonic, and uranon on the prince, managing a single wound. He rolled 1 for his charmed shield roll, thankfully.
As for shooting, the sisters managed a wound on one of the chariots, while the RBTs wounded again one chariot. The right archers removed the other unit of warhounds, while the left archers failed to do anything.
As for combat, everything went as expected.

172934

Warriors of Chaos, turn 2

Lots of charges here, as expected. The Daemon Prince charged towards my silver helms, and I had to hold. Everything else went as expected, except the BSB managed to overrun into the other RBT in a fairly dodgy way for my taste.
The prince was only able to cast -D3 T on the phoenix, leaving it with T3. All other spells were stopped.
As for combat, the DPs managed to kill a troll, but died horribly to vomits. The chariot charging the phoenix wounded only once miraculously, and the phoenix did better, wounding twice, so no problem on that side.
The silver helm champion challenged the DP, just to be butchered horribly, but in the end I won, as he only managed a single wound and I had both banner, BSB and music. Unbreakable meant the demon wasn't going anywhere.

172935

High Elves, turn 2

Counter charge time. The phoenixes flank charged the skullcrushers, both WL charged the chariots, and the leftmost archer unit charged the chariot. I had ranks and downhill charge, so I thought I'd be able to break it with some luck, although their main purpose was to held everything down.
Magic was decent again, with a 3-4 phase, which menat my phoenix was S7. I managed area harmonics again, and nothing else because of bad dice.
In combat, the PG managed to get a couple wounds on the skullcrushers, and none in return, which ended with the unit fleeing. a pursue of 3 rolls meant the skullcrushers where safe. One of the chariots died, and the WL involved in that combat reformed to countercharge the Skullcrushers the next round, while the other WL unit whiffed their attacks even with harmonics (so many 2s...) and only wounded the chariot twice.
The phoenix finished the the chariot, and tried to reform, but because of surrounding units I was forced to reform showing its flank to the trolls.
The archers didn't wound the chariot, and the chariot killed a couple elves, but I still won through SR. The chariot held the line.
Meanwhile, my BSB challenged the daemon prince and stood his ground unwounded.

172936

Warriors of Chaos, turn 3

Happily, the skullcrushers didn't regroup, and fleed the battlefield. The BSB, having finished the RBTs, charged my poor sisters housing my archmage, and the distance was short enough fleeing wasn't really an option. At least holding I'd be able to dispel a couple spells before dying. The remaining chariot charged the tied archers, the SC previsibly charged the PG, and the trolls charged the Phoenix.
Magic phase was also tame, with his chariot granting -2I and -2WS to my lions, while the other spells were dispeled easily.
Combat wise, the BSB/DP duel still remained the same, with neither of them able to hurt the other. The WL finally killed the chariot, even with the -2 to WS/I, and reformed to countercharge the trolls. A lucky streak of low to wound rolls combined with some lucky saves meant my phoenix managed to hold its own against the trolls, and the skullcrushers didn't do great either. The BSB killed a couple sisters, who fled out of the table, closely followed by the BSB. So did the archers, who got overrun by the chariots.

172937

High Elves, turn 3

At last, the WL unit bearing the banner of the eternal flame managed to charge the trolls. The other WL unit charged on the flank of the SC to help the PG, and the archers shuffled a bit, not too sure what to do.
My archmage was dead, so no magic phase for me, although the phoenix kept his S7.
As for combat, the prince wounded the BSB twice, killing him and making the silver helms flee. He pursued, but only moved a couple inches. The phoenix and the lions wounded the trolls 9 times, but didn't manage to rob them of steadfast, while the trolls themselves killed the phoenix with their vomits, and reformed on steadfast LD9 to face the lions.
On a brighter note, the phoenixes and the lions killed one of the SC and wounded another enough to make them flee. I should have pursued with both, but for some reason I decided not to, reforming instead to face the DP and the trolls with the WL.

172940

Warriors of Chaos, turn 4

The skullcrushers rallied, unsurprisingly. Other than that, it was fairly tame phase. I expected him to charge the silver helms to make them flee, but instead he redirected the rest of his army agaisnt the rest of my elites.
Magic-wise, he tried to cast his vortex spell on 5 dice, only to roll like 4 ones.
In combat, my lions killed a couple trolls, but the remaining ones vomited on them, killing the unit instantly.

172943

High Elves, turn 4

The silver helms rallied, but as far as I understood, the game was already lost, so I decided to go for the glory. The WL charged the DP, and the PG charged the Skullcrushers. And then the server failed and we were kicked out, so we couldn't finish the game.

172944


By the end of the game, it was pretty clear I had lost. I had no way to kill the remaining 5 trolls, the 3 skullcrushers, the prince or the BSB, and even seriously wounded the chariots could be a problem.
On my side, I still had an intact archer unit, a severely dwindled WL unit (9 bodies), a crippled PG unit (7 bodies), and a more or less intact SH unit, although without SB or champion.

Conclussions:

It may be just me, but I'm not quite sure if I could have done much better. I've realized a couple errors on my side, some of them fairly big, but, overall, I cannot fathom how I was supposed to deal with that. Possibly I should have held my phoenix back a bit, to use it to tie either the DP or the BSB, but with so many chariots I needed some way to hold them down. Also, those Skullcrushers are unbeliably tought.

As for list building, I know my list isn't one of the most competitives. For starters, a unit with the BotWD would have managed to hold both SC units on the flank effortlesly, but I don't really like using that banner. I've realized, though, that I do use the WL mostly for flanking, rather than mowing down enemies. Most of the enemies they face are dead or break on the turn they charge, so maybe swapping them for more DPs could be a good idea, the way I use them. Still, S6 is S6.

I'd love to hear any comments and suggestions, and I'm not afraid of harsh critique, so bring it on. I do know I still need to learn a lot, and sometimes one needs to face his own weaknesses (shameless P4 plug :P).

Kahadras
24-06-2013, 06:39
When I saw the WoC army list I wasn't suprised by the result even if your opponant made some bad plays (from my PoV). Exposing the Skullcrushers to the flank charge from the Phoenix Guard was just asking for trouble and letting his Chariots get charged by the White Lions was another massive error on his part (IMHO). If I was the WoC player I would have been looking to set up double Chariot charges onto the White Lions. Impact hits alone would cause massive amounts of damage even with average rolling (7 hits, wounding on 2's, no armour save).

On the subject of the BotWD. 4 Skullcrushers with ensorcelled weapons are the WoC equivalent of the Banner (figuratively speaking) with the added bonus that you can take more than one.

I'm not really sure about how I would have played out the game on the side of the High Elves. I might have been tempted to sit back a bit more and given the Sisters and Bolt throwers more time to try to shoot off the Daemon Prince. Once he's dead the Trolls are down to leadership 4 for their stupidity tests so would hopefully be out of the the game as well. If the WoC player had made the same plays with his Chariots and Skullcrushers then things might have turned out differently.

Kahadras

Shadeseraph
24-06-2013, 08:59
Exposing the Skullcrushers to the flank charge from the Phoenix Guard was just asking for trouble and letting his Chariots get charged by the White Lions was another massive error on his part (IMHO).

Yeah, I agree, but the crushers are frenzied, so he would have to overrun either way. He could have delayed the charge for a round, though.


If I was the WoC player I would have been looking to set up double Chariot charges onto the White Lions. Impact hits alone would cause massive amounts of damage even with average rolling (7 hits, wounding on 2's, no armour save).

I was rather bent on avoiding that, to be fair. I suppose he could have deployed differently, but it's still damn hard to make me allow him to do that without any decent juicy targets on his list other than the trolls. Also, one of the reasons I prefer reavers over eagles is that they are broad enough to block multiple units at a time, and unlike eagles they can block single models too. I should have congalined them to block the four chariots with a single unit xD.

BTW, one of my greatest failiures is that I didn't realize the dogs weren't fast cav. I could have blocked both the dogs and the trolls if I just realized that, but I though they were FC and instead became afraid of them blocking my counter charges.


I'm not really sure about how I would have played out the game on the side of the High Elves. I might have been tempted to sit back a bit more and given the Sisters and Bolt throwers more time to try to shoot off the Daemon Prince. Once he's dead the Trolls are down to leadership 4 for their stupidity tests so would hopefully be out of the the game as well. If the WoC player had made the same plays with his Chariots and Skullcrushers then things might have turned out differently.

That's an interesting point. I though the DP would be equiped in a similar way than his BSB, so I expected him to shrug all the shooting, but seeing he had the charmed shield and was a nurgle DP, I'm thinking it was more on the line of 3+/5++.
And, well, sitting back is kind of dangerous against an army with most units having a M of 8" and swiftstride, and, more importantly, 5 sources of impact hits. I needed the reavers to screen his chariots in order to countercharge him later, which I wouldn't have been able to do if I used them to delay his army.

But I'll take note of that. I'm quite sure he should have tested for stupidity after killing the Dragon Princes, and I'm fairly sure he didn't test and they were outside of the general's bubble, as he was busy on the other side of the battlefield.

Kahadras
24-06-2013, 09:48
Yeah, I agree, but the crushers are frenzied, so he would have to overrun either way. He could have delayed the charge for a round, though.

His two units did seem to be getting in each others way as well. I'd have been tempted to run one unit around the building if there was enough room to fit rather than try to jam them both between the building and the rocks.


I was rather bent on avoiding that, to be fair. I suppose he could have deployed differently, but it's still damn hard to make me allow him to do that without any decent juicy targets on his list other than the trolls. Also, one of the reasons I prefer reavers over eagles is that they are broad enough to block multiple units at a time

Well he did manage to get the chariots down opposite your Lions. Also I don't understand why he double charged the Reavers. One Chariot was enough to take the unit off the table. Charging with both, overrunning and then letting you charge them was just asking to have them taken off.


That's an interesting point. I though the DP would be equiped in a similar way than his BSB, so I expected him to shrug all the shooting, but seeing he had the charmed shield and was a nurgle DP, I'm thinking it was more on the line of 3+/5++.
And, well, sitting back is kind of dangerous against an army with most units having a M of 8" and swiftstride, and, more importantly, 5 sources of impact hits. I needed the reavers to screen his chariots in order to countercharge him later, which I wouldn't have been able to do if I used them to delay his army.

For me the DP was the weak link in the army. He's on his own and he's not got that great a stat line (toughness 5, 4 wounds). Hit him with some basic shooting first (in case he's carrying something like the Charmed Shield) then focus your Sisters and Bolt Throwers. Sitting back gives you that extra turn, moving forward just means the combats are going to start on turn two rather than turn three. He got zero shooting so the Reavers aren't in danger of being shot to pieces and can hold back for a turn before running forward to redirect. Chariots are suprisingly slow due to their inability to march making them only as fast gong forward as regular infantry.

Kahadras

Tau_player001
24-06-2013, 13:47
I agree with what Kahadras has said, also the sky lore didn't really help out to your army list imho, i know you wanted to test it, but lore of shadows would had gone a long way better, specially if you get a Withering off on the prince on first turn and shooting him down would had been a big blunder since he didn't have any magic defense aside him, allowing you pit of shades/miasma/withering next turns fairly easilly (rendering the trolls useless due either way). Many of the errors from your part on the game were due to being impacient and not knowing enough your opponent's army book as yourself noted. That's where i would start ;).

sigmarus
01-07-2013, 15:43
Using a lore other than heavens will benefit you greatly. All of the debuffs that Shadow has (as Tau_player has started to say) can really shut down a WoC army and bring out the elite aspects of the High Elf army. Miasma ensures that you hit on 3's instead of 4's and makes you have higher initiative most of the time. Reducing the strength of trolls or skullcrushers is great. Reducing the toughness of anything will make your archers able to get many more wounds. Mindrazor on PG will make the skullcrushers fall apart. The entire lore is great.

Alternate lores that could also work are death, life, and metal. High magic is also fun.

Shadeseraph
01-07-2013, 17:34
Using a lore other than heavens will benefit you greatly. All of the debuffs that Shadow has (as Tau_player has started to say) can really shut down a WoC army and bring out the elite aspects of the High Elf army. Miasma ensures that you hit on 3's instead of 4's and makes you have higher initiative most of the time. Reducing the strength of trolls or skullcrushers is great. Reducing the toughness of anything will make your archers able to get many more wounds. Mindrazor on PG will make the skullcrushers fall apart. The entire lore is great.

Alternate lores that could also work are death, life, and metal. High magic is also fun.

Yeah, I know. I've been using Shadows to great effect. But on paper rerolling 1s, along the number of magic missiles (I play a lot against VC) and the crowd control comet grants made heavens a very interesting lore, and I wanted to test it. As stated, I don't like tailoring lores, so I chose my lores before the games. It was bad luck I decided to try Heavens against WoC. Or good: It highlighted the failings of the lore.

I want to try Metal or Death next, and I'm modifying the list a bit to fit a Ring of Khaine's fury in the Archmage for those MM. I've tried High Magic before, but the range and half the spells being direct damage is what kills it for me. Still, I'll give it a second chance.
With all the shooting I have possibly neither Death or Metal are as good as Shadows, but let me test it first. -3Ld seems great on paper (panic tests FTW), soulblight looks amazing with this list, and the snipes can give the oponent a headache. Metal, on the other side, has quite powerful boosts, awesome direct damage and mediocre debuffs. Only thing I'm worried is too many flaming attacks.

Arjac Ironfist
14-07-2013, 15:13
How cool! I started reading this and realised that I was the chaos player! It was a good game though and thanks for making the report shadeseraph, I have modified that list a bit since then if you want a rematch?

Shadeseraph
18-07-2013, 00:09
How cool! I started reading this and realised that I was the chaos player! It was a good game though and thanks for making the report shadeseraph, I have modified that list a bit since then if you want a rematch?

Hey! nice to see you here :P. It was one of my fave games, even if it was a loss for me. Luck was fairly even, and I learned a lot. It's been a long time since then, but if you've got something to add, please do so ^^.

Also, I'd love that rematch. I've learned a couple tricks, although I still have my doubts about how to deal with the BSB and the DP :P.