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EOT
25-06-2013, 13:14
I've been out of the hobby for nigh on 4 years now (after 15 years of furious figure fisticuffs) and upon giving these fora a once over, I'm completely lost. So, anyone fancy giving me a quick once over of what the state of WFB is at the moment? I want everything, the fact, the fiction, the grognard's grumbles. I want it all.

And most of all, I don't want to do any of the work myself. :p

(special interest paid to Ogres, Vampire Counts and Wood Elves...bet they still haven't got a new book eh?)

DaemonReign
25-06-2013, 13:30
If you've been gone 4 years I'd say you've pretty much been missing the 'best' and 'worst' parts of WHFB-history.
On the one hand you did not have to endure the static end of 7th Edition, with 2-3 armies hopelessly positioned at the top of the Power-chain with everyone else battling over the left overs.
On the other hand you did miss the first couple of years of 8th Edition, where GW gave us in my opinion the best set of core mechanics we've ever had, and where it even seemed for a while as though they tried to write new Army Books with at least a semblance of seriousness and integrity.
It was at this juncture that both VC and Ogres got updated and both book are pretty tastefull. Especially VC is (in my opinion) the Army Book in this Edition probably holding the highest standard in terms of balance and taste. Ogres, since you mention them, got pretty buffed up (let's make 'em all cheaper!!) but nothing like the powercreeping of 7th Ed.
Presently we're entering the autumn-times of 8th. In retrospect the quality of rules being released started to go slightly downhill somewhere at the time Empire was released - the decease of undercosting 'new stuff' started to become a bit too accentuated, also the propensity to treat well-established fluff in an ever more conditional manner. Empire was by-and-large an OK book though (at least Cruddace wasn't too carefull, like he was with TK) but what was to follow was a slippery slope of designer's being too casual. Warriors came out, a decent book but still having some more of those ugly-spots kind of like Empire.. Then Matt Ward took the helm again and gave us Daemons and High Elves - demonstrating once more the simple fact that GW shouldn't allow him to design anything except core-mechanics ever.

EDIT
And no you're right, still no Wood Elves and still no Dwarves.. Although with the general design-philosophies appearantly dominating the design-team 'right now' I'd say it's not all bad. Be carefull what you wish for.. haha

IcedCrow
25-06-2013, 13:32
Mat Ward designing core mechanics brought us the magic system in its current form. He needs removed from office lol

EOT
25-06-2013, 13:43
Ah yes, the new magic system. I hear cards are involved. Has it gone back to 3rd(?) Ed. with a separate add-on just to be able to use magic?

And thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

Also, what's up with Dwarfs now? As you mention they lack a new book but I see some amount of whinging even on the front page about them. I always found dwarfs pretty easy to play (even if they were rather boring) and until, Chaos Daemons came and ruined everything, quite a strong army.

Lord Inquisitor
25-06-2013, 14:07
No, the magic system is very different but you still use dice and the spells have a casting value just the same as in 7th although some may raise an eyebrow in terms of what they can do.

The cards are a playing aid nothing more. You don't need them to play.

theshoveller
25-06-2013, 14:10
Ah yes, the new magic system. I hear cards are involved. Has it gone back to 3rd(?) Ed. with a separate add-on just to be able to use magic?

And thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.
No. Magic is in the core book, special army lores are in the army book. Cards are an add-on for convenience (so that you don't need to keep referring to the book), totally non-essential.

sulla
25-06-2013, 21:50
Mat Ward designing core mechanics brought us the magic system in its current form. He needs removed from office lolI don't share IcedCrow's opinion here.

The basic mechanics of the magic phase are pretty solid. 2d6 power dice for the caster and the highest of those d6 as the dispeller's dice is a much better system than the older version where the more mages you brought, the more dice you got. Only one dispel scroll works very well, too. Codifying the spell types and increasing levels of casting for certain spells are good ideas too.

Yes, adding your level to casting and dispelling creates an imbalance between lvl4s and other casters, yes, you can force through a spell by '6 dicing' it now and yes, some of the main rulebook #6 spells are vastly more powerful than others, but in general, the magic system is pretty good and at least as good as the one it replaced. So a good system that needs a few tweaks to make a great system in my opinion. Certainly not a sackable offence.

Shadeseraph
25-06-2013, 22:27
Then Matt Ward took the helm again and gave us Daemons and High Elves - demonstrating once more the simple fact that GW shouldn't allow him to design anything except core-mechanics ever.

Wait, the high elves army book is a bad one? Granted, it has the worst designed item ever (or close to it), but otherwise it's a balanced and interesting book, solidly in the middle of the pack in power level. In fact, I'd say it's better designed than both VC and Ogres, both internally and externally. It has a couple things that may make some people raise an eyebrow, such as the High Magic attribute, but in practice it's fairly balanced. And this is coming from someone expecting a pile of broken abuse.

outbreak
25-06-2013, 22:39
other bit changes are charges are now random distance and if you have more ranks you get to keep your leadership. Large units are now needed so if you have an old army you will need to buy a bunch more troops, prices are likely double what you used to pay for 10 models now as well.
The game is a lot more stale, most armies have access to similar things and can make lists that play similar, some games will turn into simple charge across the battlefield and whoever rolls the best or has the toughest army book wins too. There's still tactics and you will have great games, but I also find some games lacking. While it's still loads of fun and I'm still playing to be honest it's hard to take a competitive game seriously under 8th ed and more of a laugh over some beers. I know the people who I played with who struggled a lot in 7th ed are the ones who now love 8th ed and say 7th sucked.

A lot of people here will disagree with my post and flame me now, but the people who would agree are the ones who've left fantasy now (my area has really died down in fantasy players)

Knifeparty
25-06-2013, 22:44
8th edition is the best game I've ever played.

HE are great, magic system is great. Nothing stands out as too much as of yet. Everything for the most part is playable.

Win or loose, I've never had a game where I didn't have fun and hated the system. Not like 40K.

boli
25-06-2013, 23:30
Wait, the high elves army book is a bad one? Granted, it has the worst designed item ever (or close to it), but otherwise it's a balanced and interesting book, solidly in the middle of the pack in power level. In fact, I'd say it's better designed than both VC and Ogres, both internally and externally. It has a couple things that may make some people raise an eyebrow, such as the High Magic attribute, but in practice it's fairly balanced. And this is coming from someone expecting a pile of broken abuse.

I agree remove the banner (and maybe the dwarf bomb), and you have a well written and more balanced book than previous.

One gentleman's agreement not to use banner and perfectly balanced.

As for the game, I have to say its a lot of fun *finally* having weaker troops but more of them is an advantage at times rather than power-creep units to win. Magic a bit too game-winning at times but now it is a powerful phase as much as the others.

m1acca1551
26-06-2013, 02:38
Well 8th has been by far the best edition so far, and has brought much life back to the game after the arms race of 7th.

There is a lot of fun to be had with 8th, with aim great game mechanics and awesome books so far, yes there are a few negatives but hey you'll always get that.

Positives
- infantry are now the kings of the battle field
- heroes for the most part are reduced to support roles, arguably magicians are to powerful but will touch on that
- army books are fun, fluffy and balanced, no army is a clear head and shoulders above the rest

Negatives
- lack of balance between magic and deathstar units, designers were to lazy to figure a way to counter deathstars so added #6 spells that are simply a case of the reward far out weighs the risk, spamming of super 6 spells is annoying but can be negated by house rules.
- deathstars go big or go home, not game breaking but can be very boring if all you face is uber units all day
- and the biggest one, the sheer price but that's subjective

Overall 8th is fantastic, we have seen some great things in terms of balance and new miniatures, monsters are great and I'm hoping they get balanced against cannons in 9th, so all I can say is jump in and enjoy the hobby!!

DaemonReign
26-06-2013, 02:46
Wait, the high elves army book is a bad one?

It's more about putting the two last books (Daemons and High Elves) next to each other = Someone's clearly having a laugh.
Don't necessarily object to your view of the HE book. The Banner of the World Dragon puts a pretty big dent in it, to be fair - and it's too extreme to be a mistake really so I gather Ward pulls these things on purpose.
Anyone that full of himself is unfit for rules-design imo. Warhammer is a global phenomenon, Games Workshop should man up and start acting the part.

btw I have no resentment for the Magic Phase either.. Nor do I mind the 'mega-blob' units that IcedCrow puts to such scorn..
But stuff like that is all meta-related, surely. My group operates in the range of 4-10k games. The impact of über-spells and deathstars is pretty benign for us.

8th Ed is basically awesome. It's just a shame they can't be consistent about the quality in subsequent releases.

Lord Solar Plexus
26-06-2013, 06:08
It's absolutely worth to get some games in IMO. The models for the most part are gorgeous, the army books good despite a few outliers and odd decisions, the power creep checked. Infantry is useful, heavy and light cavalry are useful, most characters are useful, and so are many monsters. Armies are often varied, and while magic can be pretty rough sometimes, it's a good concept at heart.


most armies have access to similar things and can make lists that play similar, some games will turn into simple charge across the battlefield and whoever rolls the best or has the toughest army book wins too. There's still tactics and you will have great games, but I also find some games lacking.

To be honest, one could probably take this statement and post it with only minor variations on each and every wargaming forum, no?

Tae
26-06-2013, 07:48
I don't share IcedCrow's opinion here.

The basic mechanics of the magic phase are pretty solid. 2d6 power dice for the caster and the highest of those d6 as the dispeller's dice is a much better system than the older version where the more mages you brought, the more dice you got. Only one dispel scroll works very well, too. Codifying the spell types and increasing levels of casting for certain spells are good ideas too.

Yes, adding your level to casting and dispelling creates an imbalance between lvl4s and other casters, yes, you can force through a spell by '6 dicing' it now and yes, some of the main rulebook #6 spells are vastly more powerful than others, but in general, the magic system is pretty good and at least as good as the one it replaced. So a good system that needs a few tweaks to make a great system in my opinion. Certainly not a sackable offence.

Personally if they brought back the double 1 miscast overriding double 6 IF that would go a long way to fixing the only issues the magic phase has

Vipoid
26-06-2013, 09:31
Personally if they brought back the double 1 miscast overriding double 6 IF that would go a long way to fixing the only issues the magic phase has

Honestly, whilst I think miscasts should stay, I don't see the need for IF at all.

Myster2
26-06-2013, 23:50
I don't mind the 6 dice spells and I think people blow the "game ending" effect they have out of proportion. Cannons are also too strong imo.


Honestly, whilst I think miscasts should stay, I don't see the need for IF at all.

This is honestly the best suggestion i have ever heard to bring the magic system back into balance. I might suggest this as a house rule.