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Aranel
27-06-2013, 11:12
Dear all,

I would like your opinions on a subject that has been frustrating me for a good few years now; namely Games Workshop's apparant reticence to rerelease plastic core sets and instead focus on larger new kits and centrepieces. Whilst I well understand the financial benefits of this system; increasing the range to rejuvinate jaded hobbyists and entice new ones, getting maximum use out of existing moulds and reducing reliance on alternate modelling materials (metal/finecast etc), I wanted to ascertain how many are put off collecting an army due to substandard models that are required as a staple of the army. How much revenue is the company missing out on by not freshening up their core selections?

To give an example, I was incredibly excited by the release of the High Elves last month. With 8000 points in my collection already, it was always going to be a scenario involving my wallet crying out in agony! I spentv about 80 on new stuff, a success from GW's perspective, but when you consider the Army Book and magic cards totalled nearly half that it tells a different story. I only bought two new kits, The loremaster and the pheonix and spent the rest of my carefully stockpiled funds on some of my other interests. I can safely say, that if a core infantry box had been released last month, that 80 would have doubled easily, galvanised my decision to pick up some other units and eventually led me to collecting an entirely new High Elf force.

I am lucky in the above example that I already have a sizeable collection and can enjoy playing with the new army book. However, there are many cases of armies i'd love to collect but put me off due to poor core troops. I'd love a thematic tomb kings force, but the standard skellies, horseman and charioteers pale in comparison to their VC counterparts. I'd love a knights of Morr army but can't stand the fact that a fully barded empire warhorse is smaller than a pistolier mount. A Karak Kadrin throng that doesn't have to rely on awkward, monopose, constipated stunties. The core section is the foundation of a warhammer army. You must have 25% of your points dedicated to it. Surely, having consistantly fantastic models in this catagory is a great way to generate enthusiasm for the hobby and to generate sales? Do you feel a shift in the new releases policy would beneifut both games workshop andf the hobby community in general or are my opinions in a minority?

Ville
27-06-2013, 11:23
Good looking Core models are certainly a big part of any army's appeal. I think they should receive more attention. Especially my Zombies...GW is practically donating money to Mantic by not updating them: I see Mantic Zombies in more and more battle reports and my own house is full of them, too. It's weird, they gave them good rules and made people really want to use them in games but left the job half-done by not updating the ancient models. I mean, almost every nerd LOVES Zombies. What a waste...

Wallack
27-06-2013, 11:46
I totally agree.

When I saw the Island of Blood set, I was thinking that they would renew spearmen and archers also because the new Seaguard are more slim than the spearmen and archers and at the end, what you have is a army of elves of different sizes bought from the same brand.

Even if 8th edition is focusing in big infantry blocks. Everybody would buy new infantry models if they were renewed, let's face it.

underscore
27-06-2013, 12:03
I always assumed this phase more about getting *everything* into plastic first, along with making sure every army has a nice centrepiece or two available. So yeah, I'd love more armies to get updated troops, but I can see how GW are more concerned about finishing their material transition first.

Fear Ghoul
27-06-2013, 13:47
I would rather they made metal and finecast kits into plastic before redoing all the core units people don't like. Besides, there aren't that many genuinely terrible core units out there - Zombies, High Elf Spearmen, High Elf Archers, Marauders, Common Goblins, Harpies, and all Tomb Kings core. Really it's High Elves and Tomb Kings that get the worst out of this current policy.

Wash
27-06-2013, 13:49
I completely agree. One of the few core updates was O&G savage orcs, which is such an awesome kit. I own 40 of these guys. Fun to build, fun to paint, and amazing to play with. I don't understand not releasing seaguard/spearmen in a new kit, the spearmen are ugly with their giant hands and mundane looking armour. I'd really like to see a better Chaos Warriors kit, especially since halberds are a such a popular choice, and unless you are really good at conversions, the halberds you can put on them look like ass.

N1AK
27-06-2013, 14:24
Dear all,

I would like your opinions on a subject that has been frustrating me for a good few years now; namely Games Workshop's apparant reticence to rerelease plastic core sets and instead focus on larger new kits and centrepieces. Whilst I well understand the financial benefits of this system; increasing the range to rejuvinate jaded hobbyists and entice new ones, getting maximum use out of existing moulds and reducing reliance on alternate modelling materials (metal/finecast etc), I wanted to ascertain how many are put off collecting an army due to substandard models that are required as a staple of the army. How much revenue is the company missing out on by not freshening up their core selections?

To give an example, I was incredibly excited by the release of the High Elves last month. With 8000 points in my collection already, it was always going to be a scenario involving my wallet crying out in agony! I spentv about 80 on new stuff, a success from GW's perspective, but when you consider the Army Book and magic cards totalled nearly half that it tells a different story. I only bought two new kits, The loremaster and the pheonix and spent the rest of my carefully stockpiled funds on some of my other interests. I can safely say, that if a core infantry box had been released last month, that 80 would have doubled easily, galvanised my decision to pick up some other units and eventually led me to collecting an entirely new High Elf force.

I am lucky in the above example that I already have a sizeable collection and can enjoy playing with the new army book. However, there are many cases of armies i'd love to collect but put me off due to poor core troops. I'd love a thematic tomb kings force, but the standard skellies, horseman and charioteers pale in comparison to their VC counterparts. I'd love a knights of Morr army but can't stand the fact that a fully barded empire warhorse is smaller than a pistolier mount. A Karak Kadrin throng that doesn't have to rely on awkward, monopose, constipated stunties. The core section is the foundation of a warhammer army. You must have 25% of your points dedicated to it. Surely, having consistantly fantastic models in this catagory is a great way to generate enthusiasm for the hobby and to generate sales? Do you feel a shift in the new releases policy would beneifut both games workshop andf the hobby community in general or are my opinions in a minority?

It's a difficult balance. Producing a new core sprue isn't cheap and generally it is core troops that are sold for the lowest prices. Taking High Elves for example: If they released a new spearmen plastic they'd probably price at 10 for 18 but the new Sisters/Shadow warriors can be priced at 10 for 30. They would likely have to sell twice as many new spearmen because of the lower price to cover costs and the gross profit for each additional sale would be lower.

So how many new Spear Elves would they sell? Most people are taking less spear elves now because they have more alternative options in core. All current HE players already have enough core as well. So the market is players new to HE and current HE players who are replacing old style spears. My guess is that is a comparatively limited market compared to players who might pick up the entirely new units.

Scammel
27-06-2013, 14:36
I'm not sure updated core models would necessarily be more popular than what they're currently got going, namely for the fact that players already own those units. I'd question the willingness of anyone to spend 60 or thereabouts to completely replace models that they actually already own, when they could spend a similar amount on snazzy monstrous cavalry and character clampacks.

Hragnar Goreskull
27-06-2013, 14:42
Maybe they are saving all the core updates for 9th Edition Wfb? From the rumors on Warseer its going to be such a change that it would make sense to have new core sets ready for release at same time, IMO.

Either way, I would love new Marauders!!! I have a FW Mammoth just waiting to make an all Marauder list I have in the works.

Theocracity
27-06-2013, 15:01
I'm not sure updated core models would necessarily be more popular than what they're currently got going, namely for the fact that players already own those units. I'd question the willingness of anyone to spend 60 or thereabouts to completely replace models that they actually already own, when they could spend a similar amount on snazzy monstrous cavalry and character clampacks.

You and N1AK hit it on the nose.

They're willing to replace metal / Finecast models with plastic because plastic sells better, but the marginal bump from 'old plastic' to 'new plastic' probably isn't considered worth it in most cases.

It could be that they'll plan a revamp of core units sometime in the future, but I wouldn't expect anything until this current cycle of codex releases with new models is finished.

Ohman
27-06-2013, 15:27
I agree with you Aranel! Some plastics are so bad they make the whole army un-collectable. I can understand why GW have been reluctant to update core troops but surely the breaking point have been reached in some cases? The most obvious one is of course the zombies. A new high quality GW zombie-set would also appeal to an audience well outside their own player base. Units like Goblins and Wolfriders are also suffering because it hurts the eyes to put them next to some of the newer kits. This goes for High Elves as well.

It is true that many players already have big units of core but what about all the new players that want to start their armies from scratch? You can't expect armies that require you to buy heaps of 15 year old models to be as popular as the ones with newer, better looking models. I fear that some armies just won't be played at all in the future unless they get some new core.

Fear Ghoul
27-06-2013, 16:05
I agree with you Aranel! Some plastics are so bad they make the whole army un-collectable. I can understand why GW have been reluctant to update core troops but surely the breaking point have been reached in some cases? The most obvious one is of course the zombies. A new high quality GW zombie-set would also appeal to an audience well outside their own player base. Units like Goblins and Wolfriders are also suffering because it hurts the eyes to put them next to some of the newer kits. This goes for High Elves as well.

It is true that many players already have big units of core but what about all the new players that want to start their armies from scratch? You can't expect armies that require you to buy heaps of 15 year old models to be as popular as the ones with newer, better looking models. I fear that some armies just won't be played at all in the future unless they get some new core.

If newbies were put off by bad sculpts, then nobody would have bought into Fantasy when it started. Just take a look at most of the stuff from the 80's and 90's - hideous stuff.

Theocracity
27-06-2013, 16:20
While good sculpts can be a draw, bad sculpts are not necessarily a turn off - especially when there are other, cooler models you can focus on (and you have the option to go min core).

Think about it from a new player's POV. They're not necessarily aware of how old a kit is, or how it holds up to other models in the range - they may not even care what it looks like if they're more into gaming than modeling. As experienced players who know the history and have a good frame of reference to judge sculpts, we look down on the older Core models. But that's not necessarily holding back new players.

Cypher226
27-06-2013, 16:22
If newbies were put off by bad sculpts, then nobody would have bought into Fantasy when it started. Just take a look at most of the stuff from the 80's and 90's - hideous stuff.



15-20 years ago there weren't so many readily available competitors. Mantic seem to have the low price/high volume market sewn up; GW need to get back in the game here.

Do crap core minis put me off? Yes. I had a 4500 pt High elf army back in 5th using the old monopose spearmen and metal archers, and quite frankly they were tonnes better than the crap multiparts we have now. I sold them all off a decade ago when moving house, sadly, and they're not so easy to get now. I've also thought about doing a Chaos army - again, hate the marauders so have shelved the idea.

boli
27-06-2013, 16:24
Personally I snaped and I'm slowly converting seaguard into spearmen and soon be using sisters as archers (with helms).

Its not perfect but I really wish HE core was updated

CrystalSphere
27-06-2013, 17:03
The HE cores will be redone eventually, but not until GW feels that they have managed to get the most out of the of plastics. To put an example, if GW had released new spearmen/archers and reavers/silverhelms along with the new book, then there would be less incentive to buy the island of blood starter set. Also, what does GW do with all those old HE plastics? They need to get them out before they make any new minis, so they redo the book and encourage people to buy them.

I expect the new HE core plastic sets to come in early 9th edition, or maybe at late 8th. I agree with the OP that old plastics really put me off buying anything from GW (ive been complaining about this issue for years) yet the only way to make a stand is to stop buying from them. Its what i do, im disgusted by GW practices and refuse to encourage them. I only buy when i think the miniatures are good enough to warrant the pricetag, otherwise i stick to other companies even if the minis are uglier.

For the hundreth time: I am not paying such prices for a miniature that was sculpted 10 years ago, but still costs the same as a miniature released this year. GW, learn to lower the prices of old minis or get lost, im not buying your old stuff at premium prices.

The Low King
27-06-2013, 17:15
Good looking Core models are certainly a big part of any army's appeal. I think they should receive more attention. Especially my Zombies...GW is practically donating money to Mantic by not updating them: I see Mantic Zombies in more and more battle reports and my own house is full of them, too. It's weird, they gave them good rules and made people really want to use them in games but left the job half-done by not updating the ancient models. I mean, almost every nerd LOVES Zombies. What a waste...

I really dislike the mantic zombies, I think they look silly. The GW zombies aren't great but they are miles better.
I also like the GW High Elf Spearmen and TK skeletons.


As for releasing more models: I would much prefer they focus on updating the old metal models and releasing new books than redoing perfectly fine plastic models. That said, they charge a fortune for the models so they should be releasing new ones every book.

shelfunit.
27-06-2013, 17:35
If newbies were put off by bad sculpts, then nobody would have bought into Fantasy when it started. Just take a look at most of the stuff from the 80's and 90's - hideous stuff.

There are very few of todays sculpts that I would take over those of the late 80's/early 90's. You may think they are "hideous", but you would be heavily in the minority.

Spiney Norman
27-06-2013, 18:02
I think GW are playing it about right. What some posters don't seem to recognising is that GW doesn't have the ability to pump out a limitless number of plastic kits with every armybook release.

Lets just say for instance they has resculpted Spearmen, silverhelms and archers, that would be the three plastic kits for the release covered which means no Phoenix, no skycutter (ok that wouldn't have been such a bad thing, its a dumb concept anyway) and no maiden guard/shadow warriors. I suppose they could have doubled archers with maiden guard, and left the nasty old shadow warriors where they were, but in terms of their business model plastic is more profitable than finecrap and a lot more profitable than metal, and its also more convenient for the hobbyist. I would suggest that people are more likely to replace their old models with new plastics if their old models are metal or finecrap because plastic is a much better medium.

I do think a new unit or two is rather needed in any new release, to keep the army fresh and encourage the hoary old vets to spend. On the other hand if the rumours of set army lists for all factions released along with 9th edition is true I think we'll be seeing fewer new units (unless they are going to put out a huge stack of new rules for units with no models at the outset of the edition, which would allow them to concentrate on rejuvenating the old core models in the range.


There are very few of todays sculpts that I would take over those of the late 80's/early 90's. You may think they are "hideous", but you would be heavily in the minority.

True, wishing for new plastic core is not always a good idea, Empire State troops, daemonettes and horrors released in 7th edition were all massive backwards steps compared to their predecessors IMHO. It sucks to get new core models when they actually turn out looking worse than what you had before.

I am also quite partial to the tk skeletons, there is nothing wrong with the charioteers at all (they even look ok next to the new plastic tomb guard, which I also really like), and even the infantry aren't horrendous, granted there are some weapon options that don't look very appropriate on an Egyptian skeleton (the flails mostly) but in most cases its easy enough to find a workaround.

Fear Ghoul
27-06-2013, 18:16
There are very few of todays sculpts that I would take over those of the late 80's/early 90's. You may think they are "hideous", but you would be heavily in the minority.

Says you and what study? The miniatures from that period can usually be described as having ridiculous body proportions, cartoony weapons and armour, and faces that look like Nurgle's backside. If the old sculpts were so good, then we wouldn't have so many people in Fantasy and 40k clamouring for the remainder to be replaced.

EDIT: Also, in response to Spiney Norman, I am distinguishing between objective miniature quality and subjective taste. The current Daemonettes aren't bad miniatures, it's just that some people prefer the aesthetic of the older versions, which also weren't bad miniatures. By contrast most of the old Vampire Counts models are just bad, because their body proportions are horrendous, they have massive ridiculous bats on their helmets and armour (it's like the skull fetish but worse), weapons bigger than some people, and faces like bebop and rocksteady. Not good design, regardless of subjective preference and interpretation of Vampire imagery.

shelfunit.
27-06-2013, 18:21
Says you and what study?

I got it from the same authors who did yours :rolleyes:


The miniatures from that period can usually be described as having ridiculous body proportions, cartoony weapons and armour, and faces that look like Nurgle's backside.

Much the same as todays then...


If the old sculpts were so good, then we wouldn't have so many people in Fantasy and 40k clamouring for the remainder to be replaced.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of the sculpts people are clamouring to be replaced are from 2000+

Fear Ghoul
27-06-2013, 18:31
I got it from the same authors who did yours :rolleyes:

I didn't make claims to being in the majority. That was you. I merely gave my personal opinion. Therefore I don't need to cite studies. Look, I can roll my eyes as well.:rolleyes:


Much the same as todays then...

Pick any model from the current era Vampire Count range and demonstrate how it has worse body proportions than it's predecessor. Or perhaps do it for the Marine range. Someone has even gone to the courtesy of lining up multiple editions of Marines for us, demonstrating how older Marines were either stunted or had massive heads thicker than their armoured thighs:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=153457&d=1348937957


I think you'll find that the vast majority of the sculpts people are clamouring to be replaced are from 2000+

A vast majority of the old sculpts remaining are from circa circa 1995-2000, but that's because the rest have already been replaced.

Tupinamba
27-06-2013, 18:55
I dont find the old HE models that horrible at all. If GW has to choose between getting metal/finecast models into plastic or redo the, IMO, still very acceptable plastic core of some races, I for one prefer them to keep getting away with the metal.

Theocracity
27-06-2013, 19:03
Pick any model from the current era Vampire Count range and demonstrate how it has worse body proportions than it's predecessor. Or perhaps do it for the Marine range. Someone has even gone to the courtesy of lining up multiple editions of Marines for us, demonstrating how older Marines were either stunted or had massive heads thicker than their armoured thighs:

[url]http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=153457&d=1348937957[/

Or check out the horrible monkey-Skaven that still hang around in the Night Runners kit. Or the 40K Ork buggies that date back to Gorkamorka.

I prefer the newer sculpts to the old stuff as well.

Veshnakar
27-06-2013, 19:15
I swear I feel like they are holding these kits off for the 9th edition launch. So many missed opportunities that so many people want, its the only thing that makes sense. Zombies, TK skeletons, dwarf core, marauders, high elf and dark elf core. So much is in dire need of update.

Bladelord
27-06-2013, 20:05
I'd prefer if they updated more core choices before pumping out new kit after new kit but I believe they're doing the right thing, it just feels like they'll profit more from completely new models.


By contrast most of the old Vampire Counts models are just bad, because their body proportions are horrendous, they have massive ridiculous bats on their helmets and armour (it's like the skull fetish but worse), weapons bigger than some people, and faces like bebop and rocksteady. Not good design, regardless of subjective preference and interpretation of Vampire imagery.

Sounds like the new Asur Dragon Prince helmets, Phoenix Guard halberds and hero equipment.

yabbadabba
27-06-2013, 20:52
These are the sorts of business decisions people get paid lots of money to make. You have to consider not whether should GW replace some plastic kits, but why they have chosen not to.

Tau_player001
27-06-2013, 21:07
I don't agree with core being good looking being the most important factor. Actually it's more about how flashy and good looking rares and elites are imho.

But yes, it's about time for my he archers to get a new look (and hands... please the hands...)

Bigman
27-06-2013, 22:17
They don't shoot themselves in the foot at all. There process is simple.

1) release new army book with a big centre piece kit. Price it for NEW gamers (not current)

2) new players are attracted to the big kit. They don't look so much at an army, they just buy the big kit. Staff help them decide which big kit they like most.

3) buy kit. Staff help model / paint.

4) player wants to use in a game. Needs core models. Staff point them out. He buys them.


At no point is it better for GW to take up production space with zombies or state troops. They're MUCH better off releasing big kits to entice new gamers into the hobby that way. No new gamer goes into a store and goes "Show me your man sized models". They go in because the shop has painted big kits well in the window and they go "wow, that tank/monster is cool, wonder if I could do that?"

blake
27-06-2013, 22:37
+1 to Fear Ghoul. Great retort.

My 2cp.

I can understand that GW can't actually just shoehorn in a ton of plastic kit releases with a new book. Its just not possible, but I would like to see perhaps a continual update to core boxes not necessarily tied to any armies "release". My other gripe is hearing the "if they released a new core kit, so many people wouldn't buy it because its a unit they already own plenty of". Since I have a career in sales in marketing, hearing this irks the fire out of me...because its something you'll hear accountants or someone say who don't understand its not about counting on someone buying a "brand new" product...its about creating desire.

Sure you have 100 monkey fisted skaven...or 150 ham handed high elf spearmen....but my god look at these new ones. I replaced every single one of my old High elf spearmen with Lothern Seaguard models. Sure there are people who wouldn't buy new models of those units but those people can't be included in the calculation anyways, because they weren't going to spend money to begin with. You have to see the "potential" for new sales for replacing older models. GW right now is big on pushing out the new shiny's and its great....but sometimes when I look and see Empire Knights on the shelf that I saw in a different box (same model) when I started this game in 1998 it makes me frown because there has been ample opportunity to bring something new to the consumer that would immediately bring in sales.

Sometimes I think marketing must be done differently in Britain because of the things GW does that makes someone who's done this for 10 years now scratch his head.

Scythe
28-06-2013, 08:19
They don't shoot themselves in the foot at all. There process is simple.

1) release new army book with a big centre piece kit. Price it for NEW gamers (not current)

2) new players are attracted to the big kit. They don't look so much at an army, they just buy the big kit. Staff help them decide which big kit they like most.

3) buy kit. Staff help model / paint.

4) player wants to use in a game. Needs core models. Staff point them out. He buys them.


At no point is it better for GW to take up production space with zombies or state troops. They're MUCH better off releasing big kits to entice new gamers into the hobby that way. No new gamer goes into a store and goes "Show me your man sized models". They go in because the shop has painted big kits well in the window and they go "wow, that tank/monster is cool, wonder if I could do that?"

Now, I might be just weird, or it might be a generational difference, but I remember when I started warhammer, it was the looks of a basic trooper which lured me in, not the monsters (though those were cool, those were a second thought for me). Every time I've started a new army since then it was mainly based on how nice the core troops look, and I've started armies purely because I loved the look of basic troopers when they were released multiple times (wood elves, cadian imperial guard, 3rd edition necrons). Likewise, there are several armies I love several miniatures of, but haven't collected, because I cannot bring myself to build an army which I dislike the core. You can ignore the special and rare sections of an army list; you cannot ignore the core section.
Likewise, though I have put some effort into converting my Empire knights to look bigger and nicer next to the newer empire cavalry models, I would probably replace them all if a good, diverse, new set would arrive.

Kakapo42
28-06-2013, 08:40
I seem to be the only one in the universe who does, but I actually quite like all the current core unit models. Yes, that's right, all of them. I don't care too much about the proportions or the posing (I also think some people are a bit too obsessed with 'dynamic poses' sometimes, but that's for a different day), and I actually find that some of the older models often have a particular charm to them that some newer sculpts I find often lack. Indeed, if I had the power to, I would probably freeze time to a few years ago, since until that point I could not find a single GW miniature I genuinely did not like, while I tend to find most redesigns somewhat lacking (case in point, the new HE shadow warriors. I vastly prefer the last set of models for them). But maybe I'm just weird like that.

Of course, I collect Wood Elves, so I'm already sorted when it comes to awesome looking core models (in fact awesome looking models in general really).

zoggin-eck
28-06-2013, 12:14
If newbies were put off by bad sculpts, then nobody would have bought into Fantasy when it started. Just take a look at most of the stuff from the 80's and 90's - hideous stuff.

Plenty of people still like them, and they were very much like (or better) than what was offered by other companies at the time (not that there aren't sill some gems from Ral-Partha, Grenadier, RAFM and so on).

Besides, if you're talking, say, 80's lead dwarfs or empire infantry models, or their later 90's ones against the current plastics, then I really don't see them as hideous. Same goes for both 2nd/3rd edition Bretonnians and the later 5th edition ones. Plenty of goblin models are still great, even if GW's have shifted in style massively. As usual, this is all up to personal taste.


If the old sculpts were so good, then we wouldn't have so many people in Fantasy and 40k clamouring for the remainder to be replaced.

There's a big difference between the metal models, and those few plastic sets still to be replaced.

For what it's worth, I do think it would have been great to see new models for the high elf core (how about sculpting the hair flowing out the back of the helmet this time!) and certainly tomb king and common goblins/wolves.

HereComesTomorrow
28-06-2013, 18:11
I don't agree with core being good looking being the most important factor. Actually it's more about how flashy and good looking rares and elites are imho.

But yes, it's about time for my he archers to get a new look (and hands... please the hands...)

This.

Given the meta of 30+ models in a core unit, sculpts for core models really just blur into a big blob of spikes and arms sticking out. Has anyone EVER looked at a unit of 50 skaven and said "Man, I really like that sculpt of the clanrat in rank 3, column 4."?

I can see why bad models can put you off an army, but if the rest of the army looks great and you have an issue with models designed to be stuck in a unit with 29 of the same model then it seems like you're making excuses.

JWhex
29-06-2013, 06:51
I disagree with the OP. I think GW has the right approach to sell the most models as others have explained. It is pretty hilarious that people bring up Mantic in a thread about poor miniatures, especially an ELF thread. Those Mantic elfs are some the worst turds posing as a fantasy creature I have ever seen except the current Beast of Nurgle which at least has half an excuse for looking like a **** on purpose.

The reason I am not buying any more armies is simply because I think the overall cost is too high and I also already own several armies. Of course my armies could be upgraded but I just cant justify the expense.

I dont think the core models are that bad and indeed it seems like most of these threads are started by HE players. The OP has 8k of HE and he wants more core???? I would think that players with large collections would like the newer models and I expect GW thinks the same thing. Except for price I would think this would have been a really good model release for a HE player with a big pre-existing army.

The OP's complaint is kind of falling on deaf ears here.

I dont see much point in the other argument of older vs more recent sculpts, it is a matter of taste. I did not like the COS play stripper demonette models at all because they were too pretty and obviously aimed at the prurient taste of early adolescent boys. The current incarnation is by far the best representation we have had in terms of matching the background and early art.

Many models from the 80s are quite sought after and command good ebay prices, I doubt the plastic and finecrap stuff will be worth diddly in 15 years.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-06-2013, 07:31
One or 10 subjective anecdotes about what one might have spent where because don't mean much really. I think GW would know if they were shooting themselves into any extremity way before anyone here would. I'm sure they have a well-thought out and well-analyzed plan.

Aranel
29-06-2013, 13:17
Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I feel I need to further clarify my thoughts on this topic.

I completely understand both the theory and the logic behind the current release policy. I do enjoy an influx of army centrepieces in the shape of MI, MC and monsters. However, when I see poor examples of these being released at the expense of improving more tired elements of the range it does frustrate me. Considering the plethora of monsters available to the chaos warriors, did they need a slaughter brute ? How many have been seen on the table top since the release? Would that slot have been better served improving the horrendous marauder models? I feel the same about the sky cutter chariot, pointless considering the other two chariot choices on the roster already.

I'm not talking about the complete overhaul of the current policy, merely more moderation in how GW handle their releases.

P.s I understand your point LSP but respectfully disagree. If enough people are acting in the same way it could have severe ramifications for the company. Having a well thought out strategy does not guarantee success!

Santtu
29-06-2013, 23:26
New models come with a new pricetag. You don't want your army's core to cost a fortune. I wouldn't have started Vampire Counts if I hadn't got several boxes of old skeletons for cheap from eBay.

DaemonReign
29-06-2013, 23:57
I'd say GW's appearant lack of coherence and seriousness in terms of rules-design is a far more grave achilles heel for them compared to the status of their model range.
Some models are better than others, newer than others, more intuitive than others - and to a large extent this comes down to subjective opinion, which is something I fully appreciate that GW can't pretend to be chasing (it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to pure aesthethics).
When it comes to rules, however, and the varying quality of Army Books beyond all else, they really ought to treat their Community (as a whole) with more respect.
It doesn't require a transperant process or 'listenning' to every complaint but merely a modest ambition to strive for balance while stepping on as few toes as possible.
Some of their rule-devs obviously adhere to this principle, which is likely the only thing that sets their Product apart from...the Head of the Fantasy Section at GW HQ. ...

Beyond that, and more on topic, I'd love for older sculpts (even plastics) to get updated at the expense of this flood of 'center-pieces' - but this part of GW's business-strategy is really too slamdunk (for them) for me to get upset about it. Quite opposite to the situation in the rules-department where I get more cranky cuz here I can't fathom how on god's green Earth they can allow themselves to act as though that jazz wasn't important to their customers in the long run..

Sheena Easton
30-06-2013, 00:37
There are some occasions I think the choices they make are strange (releasing new Shadow Warriors for the past three editions, leaving the 4th Ed ones unusable and not adding any options that makes the umpteen kits worthwhile, making every Goblin release about Night Goblins meaning noone wants the old ugly common Goblins, updating VC Skeletons but not TK ones)

Lord Inquisitor
30-06-2013, 01:00
There was an article somewhere with an interview with someone off the design team talking about how hard it was to convince the "bean counters" that a new terminator sprue replacing the old space hulk plastics was necessary.

Most of the core plastics are quite good and while they might be able to do better (look at the new skeletons vs the old!), most people would prefer new and interesting units rather than just redoing old units. There are plenty of units for every army that are in metal/resin and could be made plastic too. It's easy to see there are higher priorities.

There are a few core that are really in dire need of an update. New zombies, we really need a new kit that looks more like the corpse cart zombies. Less walking dead, more corpses stiched together with farming implements used in place of missing components.

Greyshadow
30-06-2013, 01:04
This new core discussion always piques my interest. A player I know was secretly hoping that when the Tomb Kings were re-released that the core skeletons would remain the same. The reason was he wanted his existing (beautifully painted) collection to fit in with the new models and that the re-release would contain as many new options as possible. Needless to say he was absolutely delighted with what happened. I felt the same way about The Empire.

I do think that there is a tendency to rubbish the current core and I wonder if it is in part the community lobbying to get what they want rather than fair criticism. That said it's clear that some of the older core do have that early nineties cartoony look that is a bit out of place with the darker style of today: Marauders, I'm looking at you in particular.

Col. Tartleton
30-06-2013, 01:22
It's not like they need to update all the core models every edition, but every other or every third edition would be reasonable depending on how dated or just plain bad they look.

Dark Elf Spearmen, High Elf Spearmen, High Elf Archers, Zombies, etc. look out of place with other units.

Plastic has so much overhead it's a pain to update anything. Yet you'll note they'll occasionally change the sprues of units without remodeling the content, which is basically all the cost of updating the injection mold dies without bothering to re-sculpt it.

Must be internal politics rather than some sort of master plan.

Like they re cut the Guardian sprues a while back to include a few extra bits or something IIRC but they still look exactly the same on the table. Why the heck would they bother with that?

It's almost as annoying as when they've reduced package content (by half) and not adjusted prices appropriately. Or when they have bulk deals at the same or higher cost of individual purchases... It's sheisty and it looks incompetent or malicious.

Craze_b0i
30-06-2013, 15:13
I understand it costs GW time and money to sculpt a whole new unit of core and create the new master moulds. But in cases where the current plastic kit is the dog's breakfast why can't they just re-release some of the old metal figures which were/are much better in quality. The older figures change hands for an absolute fortune on ebay. The old metal dwarf thunderers for example used to retail for 1 per model and are now changing hands for up to 10 each. That tells you something about the sheer level of demand.

CrystalSphere
30-06-2013, 20:11
Common goblins are 13 years old, and yet they sell at the same price as current miniatures. I fail to see how people can keep buying from GW when they refuse to even update their products every few years, and instead charge full current prices for their old stuff. I refuse to encourage such business practices, and many people would refuse if it applied to important real life stuff, but because this is a wargame it appears that GW can get away with whatever they want. All the book updates do, with their new monsters and big kits, and zero core renovation, is encourage people to buy their old stuff at a ridiculous price tag.

yabbadabba
30-06-2013, 21:04
I refuse to encourage such business practices, and many people would refuse if it applied to important real life stuff, What, like food? Petrol? Electricity?

Danny76
01-07-2013, 00:07
Makes good business sense to release all these big new kits.
Big awesome gets you into the army. You buy the shabby core as you need 25% of it.
Then once you've got your army all set, later down the line they release the new core for loads at once or whatever they'll do; you'll buy the new core as you want the cool new updated stuff.

Big cool stuff gets you into your new army, as the centrepiece is a wow piece, then you're hooked..

someone2040
01-07-2013, 04:46
I believe there is opportunity for both new kits as well as fixing existing core.
However, I do agree with what GW is doing. That is putting the primary focus on replacing finecast as well as adding a new option or two to the list.
Finecast is a horrible material. Metal can be an absolute pain as well. I can certainly say I much rather that they focus on converting these models into plastic. Even if we are in the age where metal->plastic ends up with the same cost, at least the material is much more enjoyable to work with.

At the end of the day, I don't think the most important factor is how good the core models look. I also don't think it's about shoving in new units into the list to add more variety to the army. It's about the models/units that draw you too the army.
If I want to start Dark Elves because I love Executioners and Witch Elves, am I going to start the army? Well, lets take a look at the models. Models are good, but in finecast. So I weigh it up and say "Well, I don't want to work with the material for those models, so I won't start the army". It would only be after that when I start looking at the other models, and deciding if I really want to commit.

So while I think the core models will certainly affect some peoples decisions to start armies, I don't think GW need to rush off and redo plastic kits while they've still got infantry units sitting in finecast/metal.

Also, I don't understand why existing players of the army yammer on about it. You've already got your core, are you really going to go out and replace 25% of your army with new models? (Especially given GW's current pricing). I think new core is more a bonus for people looking to start the army, as opposed to those with existing collections (Not to say that they won't go and buy new core either, but seems less likely).

Lord Solar Plexus
01-07-2013, 05:29
I'm not talking about the complete overhaul of the current policy, merely more moderation in how GW handle their releases.


No, you just want other models to be released. Should that happen, someone else will come here and tell us how he spent x money on core but would have spent even more on rares had GW only the good sense to renew them. I'm personally not going to replace my 30+ perfectly fine Knights or my existing Marauders unless I win the lottery, and I don't see how such a move would entice more people yet unfamiliar with all the dolls to pick up the hobby.


Common goblins are 13 years old, and yet they sell at the same price as current miniatures. I fail to see how people can keep buying from GW when they refuse to even update their products every few years, and instead charge full current prices for their old stuff. I refuse to encourage such business practices, and many people would refuse if it applied to important real life stuff, but because this is a wargame it appears that GW can get away with whatever they want. All the book updates do, with their new monsters and big kits, and zero core renovation, is encourage people to buy their old stuff at a ridiculous price tag.

See, I'm of the exact opposite opinion. Goblins do not need to be updated every few years. In fact, Goblins and the like must not be updated in such short order. When you need 100 or more of the buggers, people would not exchange them for new ones every three years. It's simply not going to happen whatever you might think about these models aesthetically.

You might think Goblins are too expensive but as long as they sell, they're not. In the same vein, as long as models sell, what need would you feel to experiment and risk fresh invest? It's simply not necessary however much some might think the opposite.

Kneedles
01-07-2013, 06:33
I think that GW is more inclined to make a new plastic kit when a new equipment option comes out for the army, or as a dual kit. Having a dual kit makes sense, because you could sell twice as much of the same product instead of having to stock two different products. Also, It seems that the are going toward the $25 dollars for 10 models with the newer sculpts, I'd much rather pay $35 for 16 to 20 models - especially if I am buying a bunch of them.

Scythe
01-07-2013, 07:48
This.

Given the meta of 30+ models in a core unit, sculpts for core models really just blur into a big blob of spikes and arms sticking out. Has anyone EVER looked at a unit of 50 skaven and said "Man, I really like that sculpt of the clanrat in rank 3, column 4."?

I can see why bad models can put you off an army, but if the rest of the army looks great and you have an issue with models designed to be stuck in a unit with 29 of the same model then it seems like you're making excuses.

Making excuses? If I'm throwing down €100 to get a big, sizeable unit of infantry, I want them to be damn well perfect for that price. I'm paying premium prices for the models in this hobby, so I expect nothing less than awesome miniatures, no matter how other models in the army might look.

Honestly, if one is just buying core you don't really like just to play the rest of the special / rares, that person is making the excuses (or has way to much disposable income).

valle
01-07-2013, 08:27
Good looking Core models are certainly a big part of any army's appeal. I think they should receive more attention. Especially my Zombies...GW is practically donating money to Mantic by not updating them: I see Mantic Zombies in more and more battle reports and my own house is full of them, too. It's weird, they gave them good rules and made people really want to use them in games but left the job half-done by not updating the ancient models. I mean, almost every nerd LOVES Zombies. What a waste...

This is so true... I werent using zombies before, but I am now. I owned allot of old GW ones, I think a bunch of it was even unasembled, but guess where I wendt to buy new better looking ones? Thats right, mantic (Only their zombies and ghouls look good though, the rest is hideous imo).

N1AK
02-07-2013, 09:03
See, I'm of the exact opposite opinion. Goblins do not need to be updated every few years. In fact, Goblins and the like must not be updated in such short order. When you need 100 or more of the buggers, people would not exchange them for new ones every three years. It's simply not going to happen whatever you might think about these models aesthetically.


Exactly. In fact the new smaller night goblins means I don't buy more night goblins now because I have hundreds of the old style ones painted and putting the two together looks silly. Not complaining, I can see why they replaced the old kit, just pointing out that replacing an 'old tired' kit has actually lost them some sales (though hopefully got them more elsewhere).

Aranel
02-07-2013, 16:49
No, you just want other models to be released. Should that happen, someone else will come here and tell us how he spent x money on core but would have spent even more on rares had GW only the good sense to renew them. I'm personally not going to replace my 30+ perfectly fine Knights or my existing Marauders unless I win the lottery, and I don't see how such a move would entice more people yet unfamiliar with all the dolls to pick up the hobby.



See, I'm of the exact opposite opinion. Goblins do not need to be updated every few years. In fact, Goblins and the like must not be updated in such short order. When you need 100 or more of the buggers, people would not exchange them for new ones every three years. It's simply not going to happen whatever you might think about these models aesthetically.

You might think Goblins are too expensive but as long as they sell, they're not. In the same vein, as long as models sell, what need would you feel to experiment and risk fresh invest? It's simply not necessary however much some might think the opposite.

With all due respect, I think you are completely missing the point of this thread. There will always be someone/s who is not content with a release, having wished for different models. Due to the subjective nature of model appreciation based off the aethetic, I'd say thats a given. I am questioning the logic of releasing (not rereleasing) additional large kits for an army when widely criticised core models exist. I am asking if other people experience similar things to me and whether it affects their buying activity. As I have expressed before, I believe that if a considerable amount of people are likewise affected, it brings into question GW's release policy. It is not a question of judging anyone's aethetic taste or model preferences, but trying to establish if I am in a minority or not. If people are not affected in a similar way to me, that is fine but if they are; What does that mean for Games Workshop? I appreciate your opinions are contary to mine, please try to extend the same courtesy to others.

Secondly, I am in fact asking for a greater moderation in releases, incorperating big centrepiece models, rejunvinated metal and finecast choices and a replacement of widely slated core plastics. As an adult fully capable of expressing my opinions and thoughts, I would be grateful if you could refrain from attempting to instruct me on what I am trying to convey. It can come across as inflammatory and is increasing conflict in a thread designed to encourage a free exchange of opinion.

Aranel
02-07-2013, 17:01
No, you just want other models to be released. Should that happen, someone else will come here and tell us how he spent x money on core but would have spent even more on rares had GW only the good sense to renew them. I'm personally not going to replace my 30+ perfectly fine Knights or my existing Marauders unless I win the lottery, and I don't see how such a move would entice more people yet unfamiliar with all the dolls to pick up the hobby.



See, I'm of the exact opposite opinion. Goblins do not need to be updated every few years. In fact, Goblins and the like must not be updated in such short order. When you need 100 or more of the buggers, people would not exchange them for new ones every three years. It's simply not going to happen whatever you might think about these models aesthetically.

You might think Goblins are too expensive but as long as they sell, they're not. In the same vein, as long as models sell, what need would you feel to experiment and risk fresh invest? It's simply not necessary however much some might think the opposite.

With all due respect, I think you are completely missing the point of this thread. There will always be someone/s who is not content with a release, having wished for different models. Due to the subjective nature of model appreciation based off the aethetic, I'd say thats a given. I am questioning the logic of releasing (not rereleasing) additional large kits for an army when widely criticised core models exist. I am asking if other people experience similar things to me and whether it affects their buying activity. As I have expressed before, I believe that if a considerable amount of people are likewise affected, it brings into question GW's release policy. It is not a question of judging anyone's aethetic taste or model preferences, but trying to establish if I am in a minority or not. If people are not affected in a similar way to me, that is fine but if they are; What does that mean for Games Workshop? I appreciate your opinions are contary to mine, please try to extend the same courtesy to others.

Secondly, I am in fact asking for a greater moderation in releases, incorperating big centrepiece models, rejunvinated metal and finecast choices and a replacement of widely slated core plastics. As an adult fully capable of expressing my opinions and thoughts, I would be grateful if you could refrain from attempting to instruct me on what I am trying to convey. It can come across as inflammatory and is increasing conflict in a thread designed to encourage a free exchange of opinion.

Voodoo1
02-07-2013, 18:23
Also, I don't understand why existing players of the army yammer on about it. You've already got your core, are you really going to go out and replace 25% of your army with new models? (Especially given GW's current pricing). I think new core is more a bonus for people looking to start the army, as opposed to those with existing collections (Not to say that they won't go and buy new core either, but seems less likely).

When Bretonnians were released for 6th edition, I ended up replacing all my 5th ed knights as they looked horrible compared to the new ones. The same will happen if when they come out in 20th edition. I would eventually replace all current models if I find the newer ones more aesthetically more pleasing.

Avian
02-07-2013, 18:47
I agree with many points in this thread, but I will come at the topic from a slightly different angle. Out of the first generation multipart plastic kits (the ones with separate torso and legs), they have redone about a third so far. Thus clearly there are some times when they think it's profitable to redo a plastic kit and other times when they don't think so. But what are the criteria. Let us look at the redone kits:

Night Goblins
- new kit did away with the need for a separate command sprue and the separate blister of netters
Skeletons
- new kit did away with the need for a separate command sprue
Clanrats
- new kit did away with the need for a separate command sprue
Empire Soldiers / Missile troops
- new kits incorporated the previously separate spearmen / handgunner sprue
Chaos Warriors
- new kit incorporated previously separate halberd / command sprue
Dwarfs
- new kit split off crossbows into a separate box, which did away with the metal thunderers, also incorporated the longbeards*

We can see that the redone kits have been the ones where they bring options together and do away with add-on sprues / blisters as much as possible. I would guess that over time you save a decent amount of money this way. Let us look at the possibilities for combining kits further:

Dark Elves
- redone Warriors / Crossbowmen would have little to no benefit unless you add in new options
High Elves
- redone Silver Helms could incorporate Reavers and would do away with separate horse sprues
- redone Spearmen and Archers would have little to no benefit unless you add in new options
Orcs & Goblins
- a redone Orc Boyz kit would remove the need for a separate command sprue and incorporate arrer boyz bits. A prime contender for a redo.
- redone common Goblins could incorporate Skulkerz.
- redone Wolf Riders would do away with separate wolves
Skaven
- redone Night Runners could do away with separate Gutter Runners
- separating Slaves into their own kit could incorporate slings - a very minor benefit
The Empire
- redone Knights would do away with separate horses and the middenheimer sprue
- redone Free Companies would have little to no benefit unless you add in new options
Tomb Kings
- all the old Core would benefit from reducing the number of separate sprues if redone - a clear candidate if the army sells enough
Vampire Counts
- redone Zombies would have little to no benefit unless you add in new options
Warriors of Chaos
- redone Chaos Warriors would do away with the metal halberds and great weapons and could incorporate Chosen easily - a prime candidate I'd think
- redone Marauders would allow for great weapons

Looking at that list, I'd think the most likely candidates would be Orc Boyz, Chaos Warriors and Night Runners. Plus all of the old TK Core units, but they don't really count.


* clearly not all together successfully, since they later went and relaunched the metal Longbeards

Tau_player001
02-07-2013, 19:01
When Bretonnians were released for 6th edition, I ended up replacing all my 5th ed knights as they looked horrible compared to the new ones. The same will happen if when they come out in 20th edition. I would eventually replace all current models if I find the newer ones more aesthetically more pleasing.

Cores are a forced purchase for players (either you like them or not). It does not make sense to re-do them from a business perspective, except if you are raising the price while lowering quantity of models in the box while adding new options to the units. Also, i agree with you, and i have to add, and i won't speak for others but i do think most people agree that they would like new cores, but you have to ask also how many of them would actually replace all of their models instead of getting whatever new and flashy they got in the new book, no matter how well done they are.'

jullevi
02-07-2013, 19:40
Once again, Avian has perfectly valid points. He forgot (or didn't bother mentioning) shields, though. Common Goblins, Orcs, High Elf and Dark Elf Spearmen have separate shield sprues - a new box would incorporate the shields into the troop sprue. One would also think that it would make sense from logistics point of view to pack one sprue of 10 models instead of four sprues of 4 models and a number of shield sprues.

I kind of expected Tomb Kings core to be redone because they are a logistical nightmare at the moment. Instead we got snake surfers.

Avian
02-07-2013, 19:55
I had actually forgotten about the shields. Boy, I must have hundreds of spare goblin shields in my gaming room.

defunct
02-07-2013, 20:31
Combine High Elf Spearmen and Archers into one box? Same legs and torso (maybe one piece which could result in a nice elven ordered/regimental look), different weapon arms and heads, or something to that effect. Obviously, this would mean armoured archers. Though I don't know if the archers have an option for armour in the current book.

Tau_player001
02-07-2013, 20:45
Combine High Elf Spearmen and Archers into one box? Same legs and torso (maybe one piece which could result in a nice elven ordered/regimental look), different weapon arms and heads, or something to that effect. Obviously, this would mean armoured archers. Though I don't know if the archers have an option for armour in the current book.

Only if in next edition the archers get light armor instead of the option between pajama armor and light armor. Otherwise i see it highly unlikely since armor is an option for archers, but not for spearmen.

Avian
02-07-2013, 20:46
After a couple of ugly misfires (*cough* common Goblins *cough* TK Skellies *cough*) they seem to be - rightfully - avoiding melee troops and missile troops in the same kit.

mrtn
02-07-2013, 23:48
After a couple of ugly misfires (*cough* common Goblins *cough* TK Skellies *cough*) they seem to be - rightfully - avoiding melee troops and missile troops in the same kit.

The Ungors have both bows and spears and hand weapons on the sprue. Same with the Night Goblins.


I wanted to start a skaven army for a year before I finally took the plunge. I refused to buy the monkeyrats, and bought the old monopose clanrats and some metal classics second hand instead. I think they would have gotten a bit more trade out of me if the new clanrats had been released at the time.
Similarly I refused to buy any marauders, and stuck with OOP beastmen instead.

wubs23
03-07-2013, 10:03
15-20 years ago there weren't so many readily available competitors. Mantic seem to have the low price/high volume market sewn up; GW need to get back in the game here.

Do crap core minis put me off? Yes. I had a 4500 pt High elf army back in 5th using the old monopose spearmen and metal archers, and quite frankly they were tonnes better than the crap multiparts we have now. I sold them all off a decade ago when moving house, sadly, and they're not so easy to get now. I've also thought about doing a Chaos army - again, hate the marauders so have shelved the idea.

Nobody takes marauders anymore.

Avian
03-07-2013, 12:18
The Ungors have both bows and spears and hand weapons on the sprue. Same with the Night Goblins.
I stand corrected. And the Ungor actually make it look decent. :o

Cypher226
10-05-2015, 00:47
"Nobody takes marauders anymore."

That's kind of missing the point I was making, and besides the point to boot. The point is I want to include those units in the army, as I consider them essential for a fluffy tribal list, but I refuse to part with cash for such sub-par minis bar the one box I got to kitbash into goliaths for necromunda and troops for my renegades and heretics army.

Ramius4
10-05-2015, 00:56
"Nobody takes marauders anymore."

That's kind of missing the point I was making, and besides the point to boot. The point is I want to include those units in the army, as I consider them essential for a fluffy tribal list, but I refuse to part with cash for such sub-par minis bar the one box I got to kitbash into goliaths for necromunda and troops for my renegades and heretics army.

Do you realize that you just replied to a thread that is almost 2 years old? :p

logan054
10-05-2015, 18:39
I really dislike the mantic zombies, I think they look silly. The GW zombies aren't great but they are miles better.
I also like the GW High Elf Spearmen and TK skeletons.


As for releasing more models: I would much prefer they focus on updating the old metal models and releasing new books than redoing perfectly fine plastic models. That said, they charge a fortune for the models so they should be releasing new ones every book.


We must be looking at different models? The GW zombies are awful, just like the tk skeletons (they are old models).

Big fan of the new VC plastics, skeletons are (some of the best about). The wraiths are awesome, it's just a shame a unit of them lacks variety.

I can think of plenty of special and rare units redone in plastic that just don't do it for me. Problem with all these plastic kits is the heads seem to suffer unless it's armoured.

Not that any of this matters if half the rumours are true, if the range is getting rebooted I think most units will be redone.

tenpole
10-05-2015, 23:17
I like the Mantic undead. Pity their elves look like a rabble otherwise I would be a fan of those sculpts.

Coldhatred
11-05-2015, 03:15
When I worked for GW in one of their store's and the newest release of Dwarfs were about to come out I was utterly exstatic, and then "Oh. Some new characters. . .and some new Special models. No. .new Core models. Huh. *Sigh*" Still stuck with these terribly designed Dwarf Warriors. Give me the older plastic ones at least, sheesh.

The bearded one
11-05-2015, 03:47
When I worked for GW in one of their store's and the newest release of Dwarfs were about to come out I was utterly exstatic, and then "Oh. Some new characters. . .and some new Special models. No. .new Core models. Huh. *Sigh*" Still stuck with these terribly designed Dwarf Warriors. Give me the older plastic ones at least, sheesh.

Longbeards are core :p

Coldhatred
11-05-2015, 03:52
Longbeards are core :p

Oh yeah you're right! But you know what I'm getting at! :D

The_Real_Chris
11-05-2015, 11:07
I disagree with the OP. I think GW has the right approach to sell the most models as others have explained. It is pretty hilarious that people bring up Mantic in a thread about poor miniatures, especially an ELF thread. Those Mantic elfs are some the worst turds posing as a fantasy creature I have ever seen except the current Beast of Nurgle which at least has half an excuse for looking like a **** on purpose.

----

I dont see much point in the other argument of older vs more recent sculpts, it is a matter of taste.

Mantic elves are a funny one to pick out. Their humans or goblins are bad modes for technical reasons, but the elves are disliked due to style reasons, especially by those that like the GW 'chunky human' style elf instead of the more inhuman slender/alien one.

The_Real_Chris
11-05-2015, 11:11
One or 10 subjective anecdotes about what one might have spent where because don't mean much really. I think GW would know if they were shooting themselves into any extremity way before anyone here would. I'm sure they have a well-thought out and well-analyzed plan.

I think them not having that is one thing most would agree on. Unless you have an interpretation of analyzed that is process and not outcome based.

tenpole
11-05-2015, 12:30
Mantic elves are a funny one to pick out. Their humans or goblins are bad modes for technical reasons, but the elves are disliked due to style reasons, especially by those that like the GW 'chunky human' style elf instead of the more inhuman slender/alien one.
Apparently gw are epic scale 28mm. I like the way the mantic elves looked so slender but I dont like the way they rank up, unless you buy loads of boxes to get your unit regimental.