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View Full Version : Effect of the new HE Book



Cooper97
28-06-2013, 06:51
Just wondering what everyones thoughts were on the new HE army book and wether it will have much impact

chromedog
28-06-2013, 07:40
I tried to vote but the poll was closed.

It's not changed things much here. A couple of players have bought the laughable new units - but most have just continued on with what they had, and adjusted to it.

Scammel
28-06-2013, 07:52
Overall I'd say the book probably remained at the same power level. Some of the more ridiculous elements of the magic phase have gone (looking at you, Teclis) but that's been well and truly compensated for by a range of pretty outstanding units in many slots.

Spiney Norman
28-06-2013, 08:17
Overall I'd say the book probably remained at the same power level. Some of the more ridiculous elements of the magic phase have gone (looking at you, Teclis) but that's been well and truly compensated for by a range of pretty outstanding units in many slots.

This is pretty accurate, I'd say overall the army as a whole got stronger, but they lost a lot of the cheaty tricks that made them such a pain to play against last edition, like SM ASF not being effected by their great weapons, and IF on any double shenanigans. I'd say they are still a strong army, but you have to think a little more about how to play them rather than roll-lots-of-dice-at-this-spell-which-will-destroy-your-army

danny-d-b
28-06-2013, 09:34
yep the have gone from an army which was purely "either I kill tecles or I die" to a much more rounded book there is still some pritty powerfull stuff in there (book of hoath, frost phonex, 3+ward save phonex guard and BOTWD) but its a much better internally balanced book

Daenerys Targaryen
28-06-2013, 18:20
Well, as a Daemon player the new High Elves are now an overpowered steaming **** of Trollololol! filth at it's absolute finest! On the whole though, I'd say the army got stronger due to things like the new Frosthearts, changes to the army comp which moved Helms & Reavers to Core, Martial Prowess is pure win, and the overall slight pts breaks to most existing units.

tmarichards
28-06-2013, 18:28
It changes very little in the wider game to be honest.

In terms of external balance, it has probably gone down a little bit (so a very middling book still) due to the White Lions change and the removal of double Banishment. However, the internal balance is significantly better- there are now multiple options available.

Captain Collius
28-06-2013, 19:40
The book is now functionally flexible and doesn't force you into a very narrow range of builds. Yes BOTWD is fantastic get over it move on. The rest of the units all have uses.
Well except maybe shadow warriors.

However it should be said Frostheart are one of the better monsters in the game.

Scammel
28-06-2013, 20:31
In terms of external balance, it has probably gone down a little bit (so a very middling book still) due to the White Lions change

Surely Lions got better? Granted, they lose some hits compared to their old incarnation in some formations but they also get more in others (namely when they're 4 deep) and also have much better synergy with other units in the army (Frosthearts, High Magic and Alarielle spring to mind).

IcedCrow
28-06-2013, 20:36
When you compare a unit that has to function with synergy to excel, and a unit that can excel on its own, people will often go for the unit that can excel on its own and then when it gets bumped to requiring synergy will say that it took a hit.

theunwantedbeing
28-06-2013, 20:45
Everything in the book got cheaper, and better except for Swordmasters and White lions who got cheaper, but worse (they're still excellent though).

Scammel
28-06-2013, 20:52
When you compare a unit that has to function with synergy to excel, and a unit that can excel on its own, people will often go for the unit that can excel on its own and then when it gets bumped to requiring synergy will say that it took a hit.

White Lions excel quite happily by their lonesome, they are very, very far from needing synergy, they just happen to possess a rather nice amount of it. As I said, their effectiveness is a wash compared to the old book and they got cheaper, ergo better in my mind.

sorberec
28-06-2013, 21:06
Surely Lions got better? Granted, they lose some hits compared to their old incarnation in some formations but they also get more in others (namely when they're 4 deep)

So they got better because you have to run bigger, more expensive, units in order to have the same damage potential as they used to?

Scammel
28-06-2013, 21:27
So they got better because you have to run bigger, more expensive, units in order to have the same damage potential as they used to?

Care to try them 5 wide?

sorberec
28-06-2013, 22:04
Not really because then I've got models not attacking in my mainstay unit when they need to be maximising active combat res

theunwantedbeing
28-06-2013, 22:11
Care to try them 5 wide?

Previous White Lions
5 wide, 11 attacks
vs ws1-4 troops, they do 9.78 hits
vs ws5-10 troops, they do 8.25 hits

New white Lions
5 wide, 16 attacks
vs ws1-4 troops, they do 10.67 hits
vs ws5-10 troops, they do 8 hits

Better vs lesser foes, worse vs equals or better.

In a horde formation the numbers are 27.56 & 23.25 hits for the previous White lions and 27.33 & 20.5 hits for the new ones.
Although it goes down for the later ones if you reduce the unit size to just 30 (to 20.67 & 15.5 hits respectively)
while the older unit suffers no change in damage output.

tmarichards
28-06-2013, 22:41
Surely Lions got better?

If you're taking them in very big units, then yes- a unit of 40 will do more damage than before because the extra 10 attacks is more efficient than the re-rolls (assuming you're fighting WS4 or less). In small units, they're less efficient due to losing the re-rolls.

It doesn't mean they're bad, just that they now work differently (hence why I said they got a change rather than a nerf or buff)- they're no longer the unit that you could take 2 units of 30 of and then sit behind casting magic.

Lord Inquisitor
28-06-2013, 22:58
Overall the HE book didn't produce a big splash and other than making the meta slightly more cav- and monster-heavy, not much effect, a nice balanced book. Certainly some choices are better than others but nothing too offensive.

...Except for the Banner of the World Dragon of course. I'd hate to turn another high elf thread into one about the banner, but it is on topic - of all the choices and units in the book, it has perhaps the largest effect on the meta. Some armies with a lot of magical attacks might consider how they would deal with the banner unit. Obviously the most affected are the daemons, and in zero comp competitive warhammer, the mere possibility of facingthis banner can act to dissuade players bringing daemons at all.

NitrosOkay
29-06-2013, 02:30
This banner aside, the Daemon book doesn't seem like a particularly competitive book to me anyway. I'd love to hear reasons why it is though.

DaemonReign
29-06-2013, 05:30
The New HE book would probably have been one of the better books in this Edition (comparable in general quality to VC and OnG) if it hadn't been for tBoTWD which pretty much makes me regard it as the same kind of Wardian garbage that Daemons got.

The way most of the HE-stuff's been rebalanced (rather nicely both in terms of external/internal balance) shows that Ward actually knew what he was doing when he defacated all over Daemons. That's good to know. :D

JWhex
29-06-2013, 06:31
I have only played twice so far, using lizardmen, 1 win and 1 loss. The loss was mostly due to my opponent getting IF to cast Pit of Shades on my initiative 1 saurus unit and basically running away from my other units.

My win was helped by a comet that went off and flattened his frostheart. It was like a 3rd turn comet and he actually had moved his bird away from it, but charging some salamanders he got close to it and it went off in his magic phase, so not quite like 6 dicing the spell for a win.

The frostheart is obviously a really good monster and martial prowess is either excellent or too good depending on what army you are facing.

Without the BotWD I think the High Elves would have a very difficult time beating my strongest Nurgle army. With the BotWD, I dont see how a good player could lose against a demon army, I know I wouldnt.

Targ Ironfist
29-06-2013, 07:06
Without the BotWD I think the High Elves would have a very difficult time beating my strongest Nurgle army. With the BotWD, I dont see how a good player could lose against a demon army, I know I wouldnt.

Someone, somewhere has noticed this down. You know, dice can have their day and even this could happen then. :D

Now seriously. Yes, BotWD is mega :cheese: and it disbalances an otherwise quite solid book.

My only other problem is that the Sea Helm and Annoited of Asuryan are too weak for the cost. At least for 2500 - 3000 games. For bigger ones that might be different, of course.
For the usual point level, they seem somehow too costly for what they bring.

Should anyone have an experience/opinion differing to mine, I would love to hear that. Realy.

Cooper97
01-07-2013, 03:12
yeah sorry bout that, it won't let me vote either. I don't personally think it will change much, i mean i will still always beat them :p. My Empire army os pretty strong but, to be honesst i think they have finally made the HE less OP although i don't think they should have changed their magic.

Tau_player001
01-07-2013, 03:24
If you're taking them in very big units, then yes- a unit of 40 will do more damage than before because the extra 10 attacks is more efficient than the re-rolls (assuming you're fighting WS4 or less). In small units, they're less efficient due to losing the re-rolls.

It doesn't mean they're bad, just that they now work differently (hence why I said they got a change rather than a nerf or buff)- they're no longer the unit that you could take 2 units of 30 of and then sit behind casting magic.

Not really, they are equal vs WS4- (26,6666), and they are worse against WS5+. If you also take into account the amount of bodies required to perform exactly the same, or worse in other cases, you notice it is quite a nerf to the potential killing of the unit as hordes. On lesser units, that's about right.

N1AK
02-07-2013, 13:17
Not really because then I've got models not attacking in my mainstay unit when they need to be maximising active combat res

Cheaper means more ranks and more wounds in the unit which is hardly of no value. They're about as good against WS4 or lower troops now which is the vast majority of things they'll face. Furthermore they don't get worse when facing other units with ASF+High I any more or when hit with a de-buff that reduced I or granted ASL. The only reason why people are less likely to take white lions now is that other alternative choices have gotten considerably better.

Pavisel
02-07-2013, 18:04
As a high elf player, I think the book is overall slightly better than before. Why? Mostly because it fits my playing style better - fast moving, smaller units. Never a big fan of hoarding HE. And with helms and Reavers to core, the new phoenixii, the Skycutter and sisters, small and fast has become much easier. I am disappointed with the nerf to magic items, but the new lore is not too bad, IMO. Walk between Worlds is the spell for me!