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mr_gosh_the_return
28-06-2013, 18:41
I decided to write a list based on partially what i got and partially because my VC army is designed around combat and magic. Here is what i come up with, any improvements anyone can think of please let me know:

Alith Anar (in sisters of avelorn)

Sea Helm + standard and reaver bow (in with sea guard)

Handmaiden of the everqueen + ironcurse icon (in sisters of avelorn)

25 lothern sea guard, shields, full command

16 Archers

4 skycutters, bolt throwers

4 bolt throwers

15 sisters of avelorn, high sister


I figure in 2k the sheer amount of bolt throwers should allow me to weaken pretty much anything to the point where the LSG and a chariot charge could deal with it, as i have

1 S7 bolt
4 S6 Bolts
4 S5 Bolts
3 S5 arrows
16 S4 arrows
41 S3 arrows


that should be enough to stop a heck of a lot.

mr_gosh_the_return
28-06-2013, 18:54
Or at the other end of the spectrum...

Prince, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Sun Dragon,

Noble, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Griffon, Swift Sense

50 Spearmen, Full command, Banner of Swiftness

2x Lion Chariots

10 Dragon Princes, Standard & champion

Frostheart phoenix,

Great Eagle




which list would be more competitive and would silver helms be better than spearmen for an all out combat army?

Tau_player001
29-06-2013, 11:35
The first thing you can notice, is the lack of magic on your lists.

thrawn
29-06-2013, 12:48
ya take a level 4 lore of heavens to let you bubble reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wounds and then watch his toy soldiers drop.

mr_gosh_the_return
29-06-2013, 13:59
I was wondering about that, are re-rolling 1s that good that i can afford to drop some heavy firepower? Plus the lack of casting bonuses means against a decent caster army id still get dispelled, then not only have i lost the shots but the caster is 200 points wasted.

What could be removed that isn't significant at penetrating armour or ranks? The only thing i can see is the handmaidens. Is it worth it for a single bare wizard?

Tau_player001
29-06-2013, 20:02
I was wondering about that, are re-rolling 1s that good that i can afford to drop some heavy firepower? Plus the lack of casting bonuses means against a decent caster army id still get dispelled, then not only have i lost the shots but the caster is 200 points wasted.

What could be removed that isn't significant at penetrating armour or ranks? The only thing i can see is the handmaidens. Is it worth it for a single bare wizard?

I really prefer metal lore if i want to play a shooty list. Enchanted blades of Aiban's is a really useful spell, so is Glittering robe or final transmutation, but more importantly, searing doom and gehennas helps that kind of list a lot imho . I don't really like the skycutters, since they will be mostly shooting at long range and they have S5.

I also feel that you will really regret not having eagles and reavers in your army lists. Sky cutter don't march, so they can't really play the same role.

Kahadras
30-06-2013, 00:35
I second the call for a magic user.

In a shooting focused army I'd look at the Loremaster for magic support. He has access to good ranged damage spells from the Fire, Metal and Light plus he can slow down oncomming enemy units with Shadow or make it harder for the enemy to shoot you with Heavens.

I'd go for...

Loremaster + Book of Hoeth

BSB + Reaver bow and Potion of strength

A big block of Lothern Seaguard
A few small units of Ellyrian Reavers (with bows)

Skycutters
Phoenix Guard

Bolt Throwers
Eagles

Force your opponant to attack via shooting. Use the Reavers and Eagles to slow your opponant down and give you more chance to damage, rout or destroy his units. Once his units reach your line you'll need some combat troops in order to fight what's left. My worry for a list like this is going up against another shooty list (like a Dark Elf repeater crossbow horde or a Dwarf gunline) or a mobile block monsterous infantry horde (like Ogres).

Shadeseraph
30-06-2013, 08:42
Emmm... shadows, anyone? Withering means your S3 bows start wounding far better against all the T5/T6 around there. Miasma means the enemy will take a bit longer to reach your lines, too, and finally, when the enemy reaches your bowline, all the spells are very useful to arhers shooting in 3 rows.

Still, I support heavens. A well placed comet will give you a round to play, and the additional, high S MM is always nice. Harmonics isn't really amazing, but it get's the job done and it's cheap to cast, and iceshard helps both in combat and for panic tests.
Oh, death is also good. Soulblight, anyone? -1S/-1T in area is great, as is -3LD to force panic tests, and the sniping spells help against flyers.

Tau_player001
30-06-2013, 09:22
I don't know about you, but my problems, are mostly flyers paired with high armored units, not infantry.

The +1 to hit and -1 armor is often good enough for most regular infantry, and allows you for other stuff. Plus you will have nukes to actually use. There is no comparison to deal with high armor.

mr_gosh_the_return
16-07-2013, 08:45
Actually my opponents tend to be lizardmen magic based armies, chaos warriors with skullkrusher min-max, and dark elves with 2 hydras. If i start spending on a mage, to guarantee doing anything without losing 15 bows to a miscast, i need a book of hoeth, further reducing my firing, then i really need a phoenix guard unit for counter attacking, which i could do with supporting with some white lions, a few war eagles etc, so basically drop all the shooting bar alith anar?

That's not how to build a shooty list, thats a cc focused list with a little shooting tagged on. I would like to know if my shooting list could be improved.

EG more archers? Should i drop the LSG for reavers?

If i dropped a sky cutter and a bolt thrower, would a L3 archmage, how would that improve my shooting or should i just lose Alith Anar and his super bow?

Anything that hasn't got a ranged attack is out. That means no phoenix guard, losing 200pts of shooting is ok but losing a good 300+ for phoenix guard as well means a total of 500 out of 2000. 25% of my shooting would be gone, that radically changes the focus of the army. Anything changed in the army must either add shots, add strength to shots or significantly be able to add enough damage to existing shooting that it is better than the number of shots I will lose from the equivalent point value being subtracted.

As for skycutters, how are reavers better? Reavers offer 5xS3 shots before being run down and killed, or charging in and being killed. Redirection allows you to choose where and when you charge, I like reavers a lot but most CC based armies will kill them in turn 2 and then charge the rest of your army through overrun unless you buy a huge unit, then the reavers are locked in a cc they cant win, and you lose all their shots while they die. In a shooting army, as far as i can see, they are free points for the opponent. If i am wrong please explain how you'd use them.

Skycutters offer a s5,then s4. then s3 but with no armour save. they offer all round damage, plus as a single model they can move 10 per turn, ignoring terrain, they aren't flankers but supporting fire power where needed. My only worry is 1 shot per turn per skycutter. I also suppose reavers are better in CC per point, but the 4+ save and T4 of the skycutter somewhat make up for this. I can't see why the skycutter is a poor choice as a support unit, to hold a line or act as a charge re-director it wouldn't be useful. Should I still drop them for reavers?


**Edit: I'm sure magic could be useful, I'm just unsure about how useful and what to replace-Are skycutter really not that good?**

smithtrapper
16-07-2013, 13:19
Well you have 120pts to spend as you can only have 3 sky cutters

mr_gosh_the_return
18-07-2013, 11:09
Well you have 120pts to spend as you can only have 3 sky cutters


Brilliant! Problem solved and as i already have a mage, that saves me money too!

Tau_player001
18-07-2013, 15:52
Hmmm that conclussion on list building of "i want to make a shooty list but magic will make me less shooty" doesn't make any sense to me. Adding a Heaven's / Metal Archamge (or even High magic) is adding more shooty options to your list than whatever else you could for the points (IE Alith). If you are trying to build a only shoot bows and stuff, sure go ahead and play whatever you want, but it doesn't make sense on a shooty list from a point efficiency perspective to not take a mage.

Things that could be changed and improved to make a more efficient shooty list.

Alith ---- > Archmage book of hoeth. On a pure shooty list, there are like three choices heavens or shadows and metal. Heavens allows you to have an easier time against low model count armies, flyers and static gunlines, and is somewhat decent against high armored foes, while shadows helps slowing down your opponent, thinning out big blocks, making your focus firing more efficient and giving you the chance to turn your ASF units into killing machines (like archers going nuts). Metal just makes your life way easier against heavy armored lists, but is quite suboptimal against anything else. I would go heavens in my personal experience with this kind of lists because flyers are actually my biggest problem with S3 shooting. Armor aswell, but RBTs are decent enough against them. Some people like death aswell.

Handmaiden, reaver bow, strength potion atleast (and this allows you to build your BSB tanky or get a banner of world dragon for your mage's bunker)

Core --- > Remove lothern sea guard, get a second unit of archers, and get ellyrion reavers to have more redirectors (either shooty or not, you need redirectors and as you are saying, you want to play shooty, remove those overcosted archers that seaguard are).

Specials --- > You can only have 3 skycutters. The good thing about them, is not the shooting, but being able to charge overflying units. You can save a lot of points removing the bolt throwers (75 plus the 120 from the extra skycutter that you have to remove). I dislike them tho, and i would take regular tiranocs over them any day of the week. I would use the point for some shadow warriors (yes they are not that good, but are decent enough for this kind of lists), some drops for white lions (stubborn troops work decently at gaining you a few turns, specially with champ and smart reforms) and the rest for more units of archers.

Rare --- > High sister is pointless. Get 2 eagles aswell for extra redirectors and to slow down your opponent. Although i prefer to use 2 msu units of sisters with the 4 RBTs and 2 eagles, so i can remove regen from too units if needed.