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ashc
30-06-2013, 19:09
Hello all!

Some people may remember me... others perhaps not... anyway, after a long hiatus I am looking at coming back to the game; I ducked out at the release of 8th not for any game related reason but life ones, so how is the game at the moment? - do people like it? How are people finding the new army books? is there some balance back with 8th edition. What books are rated top and which are falling to the wayside? I appreciate all comments!

I've got a similar thread over in 40k general, so if you have any thoughts on that, please drop in :)

Ash

TheDungen
30-06-2013, 19:29
8th is a good edition in that the books released for it are very balanced, it however made some quite large changed to the formula of the game and not everyone appreciates it.

IcedCrow
30-06-2013, 19:40
Its no longer tournament edition warhammer due to random charges and premeasuring removing arguing over 1/8" and removing absolute tactics.

It favors strategy over tactics though there are tactics present.

It brought back mega magic that can destroy entire units in one go.

It heavily favors magic due to the power of casting and the relatively low risk of miscasts mostly doing nothing.

Its victory point system being destroy all of the unit or get no points pushed many to field massive units that have been dubbed deathstars where the bulk of the army sits in the one unit.

The army books have been mostly balanced with the exception of some top heavy items (the high elf banner of mat ward's skill the world dragon) or things like ogre deathstars which are massively efficient.

Terrain largely does nothing to movement anymore but has random effects (infuriating tournament style players with the random effect)

Largely there is a lot of good mixed with a few horrible bugbears (imo) that make this edition a fun game, but largely not an effective tool in measuring tactical skill which has led to tournament players slagging it as yahtzee.

If you want a game that caters to fun, casual, storytelling...its great. If youre into pushing the rules to their breaking point, uber balance, and tournament acumen this will likely not be your game.

Doommasters
30-06-2013, 21:53
All things considered 8th is a great edition and moved fantasy in the right direction. There are still a number of poorly written rules and game mechanics I.e ridden monsters. Some armies just don't work (wood elves) and monster without a ward or regen save struggle against machines and steadfast. There are a few instant death spells that are too good and a lvl4 is far more beneficial than a combat general in almost every case.

Overall much better than 7th and provided 9th is just a rules tweak with new magic items, scenarios and hopefully something for combat lords (warlord traits). We will be in for a real treat!

Does anyone know When 9th is due?

ZigZagMan
30-06-2013, 23:02
And yet tournaments are growing bigger than ever, and the same people who would win with "Skill" in seventh are still winning tournaments in 8th.
Magic can decimate, but almost never completely kill a big unit in one spell. It take killing an entire unit to get its points, so people bring huge units, and then we're back to the first point of magic hurting units in one spell. Theres alot of rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock going on in this edition. And thats not a bad thing!

IcedCrow
01-07-2013, 00:01
Im just regurgitating what the tourney guys on the internetz say.

Paper rock scissors is one thing that i feel is bad about the game

IcedCrow
01-07-2013, 00:08
And rumors say 9th is fall 2014

Elly_Banearrow
01-07-2013, 00:10
I feel the game itself is good, but my army sucks horribly at it. Yes, I run wood elves, but I've seen HE, Vamps and DE doing very well in games, and even Brets are still competetive. It just so happens I pick one of the hardest armies to start playing Fantasy with. Yes, I know, I'm a genius but its all good. Just gotten work with some house rules and make sure my guys don't die too quickly.

I went off topic there, sorry. I still rather like this edition, but this is the only way I've played so I'm not the best person to ask, I suppose.

ZigZagMan
01-07-2013, 00:15
Im just regurgitating what the tourney guys on the internetz say.

Paper rock scissors is one thing that i feel is bad about the game

WHY...? if the game was mostly paper/rock it would be kinda boring, everyone would just get paper. But it is more than just 3 elements, multiple things destroy others which in turn are something elses weakness, which then come back and are good against the first thing. how is this bad...?

As far as tourneys go Adepticon filled up in 1 day, in the years before it took 3-6 months or more. and they opened up like 30 or 40 extra spaces, just to accomidate the waiting list. Local tournaments here in the south, which is not known for its tournament scene, are filling up in record time. Many people feel 8th ed is the best ed of warhammer ever, due to balance mostly, and others hate it, due to nostalgia ( i think).

IcedCrow
01-07-2013, 00:55
Paper rock scissors design encourages extreme building, wherein you spam spam spam based on your meta.

Tau_player001
01-07-2013, 01:02
Paper rock scissors design encourages extreme building, wherein you spam spam spam based on your meta.

RPS is more about rolling random match ups that can either screw you up or catapult you to top tables.

It's not a bad thing if it's soft countering instead of hard countering different styles, since it limits list building to where you are pointing out, people trying to play their meta instead of the game, hoping for rolling against his most prepared match ups instead of the rock to their scissors just because it's more common.

IcedCrow
01-07-2013, 01:21
The way I thought rock/paper/scissors is and how I hear it talked about is that I have element A... which is strong against element B, which is countered by element C.

In theory that sounds great, and a lot of historicals use it (for example, cavalry trashes normal infantry, but is in turn trashed by spears and pikes, where normal infantry can beat your spears and pikes but is trashed by cavalry, etc)

The unfortunate part is that right now GW added the elements of spock which trumps all (the magic phase) and because of the magic phase, they have encouraged people to mass build their units so that if a mega spell goes off it doesn't end their game as if they are tooling around with 60 guys and they lose 30, they still have a viable fighting force.

All of the counters aren't really in place right now. It's kind of "half done" the way I see it.

Doommasters
01-07-2013, 01:30
Monstrous Cavalry/infnatry > Monsters

I think we will see a boost to monsters come 9th and tournaments are more fun than ever especially with all the new 8th books be much closer to power level. If you take a balanced all commers list it makes for very fun games, if you tailor your list of course it will be PRS.

Big Issues that could be addressed IMO

1) Monsters versus steadfast and warmachines - There is a balance not sure they have nailed it just yet
2) Ridden monsters - Rules are terrible and discourage using them/buying the kits again we don't want monster hammer but the current rules are horrible
3) Instant death spells - Tonned down a little, initative test or die is just too extreme
4) Magic resistance - Should actually work as intended currently most of the things you want it to help against don't
5) Combat Lords - More incentive to bring them to a game over a lvl4 and provide greater tactical advantages for having them (Warlord traits anyone?)
6) Victory points - Needing to kill every last man could be looked at there is a balance to be had between 7th and 8th, neither nailed it IMO
7) Cannons - Hard one but the current feeling is that they are simply too good at removing those big center piece models, but that is their Job again.
8) Miscast Table - Getting sucked it to the warp hurts some armies more than others but we don't want 6 dicing to be best tactic for everyone like it is now (best addressed through nerfing uber spells)

Tau_player001
01-07-2013, 01:35
What's element A, a unit ? There that's not a good comparison to the state of the game. If you meant army lists, yeah, but what i am speaking about is that if where you are going to play atourney most people play list A, and very few players list B, you can meta playing list C hoping to face on the rounds the maximum amount of list A's, while avoiding list B's because most of them may be crushed by the majority of lists A and trying to outplay any list C since it's mostly a "mirror". Hence the random factor.

If the counters are not just "screw" but is "slightly favored", it allows better list building and removes importance of the metagame when playing (ie, i remember a post about a player who used sword of heroes on a blender VC, and faced 3 army deathstars full characters, it does not mean he didn't play well or his army was not solid enough, but he clearly metagamed his zone/tourney with the magic item and it paid off, it's a compliment btw).

Otherwise, the game is tons of fun, and most of the flaws are minor ones. Magic, most people should try to comp the amount of maximum dice for each lore, it really makes the game way better.

ZigZagMan
01-07-2013, 01:40
The lizard to Spock (magic) in this case is actually MSU, such as mass chariots, with the "oh no you got one!(sarcasm)" effect.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-07-2013, 08:06
I like this edition for so many reasons. It's very balanced both in terms of factions and in terms of units. The notion that X > Y is popular but simplistic and misleading, especially when it is based on unit type. Deathstars are considered effective and easy to counter. Monsters are said to be bad and seen in ever more numbers. Infantry has defeated MC countless times. Big spells will hurt and small magic missiles win games and so on and so on. Yes, it's exactly like RPS - only that there's ABCDEFG etc. as well and each R can become P or S or Y.

Phazael
01-07-2013, 19:28
There are definite army tiers, but with some degree of comp or soft scores, any army can compete and the gap between the top and bottom armies is not as stark as it is in 40k. There are also a lot of quirky matchups that give certain low tier armies actual advantages over otherwise top tier builds. While there are a couple faceroll builds out there (super efficiently build DE armies, certain Slaanstar setups, VC Scream spam), they are somewhat rare and not heavily played these days due to the stigma attached to them.

The hardest adjustment for a returning player will be twofold. First, the random charging and premeasuring has made the game more about risk management (think Bloodbowl) rather than straight up distance guessing, but this is good because it has all but eliminated the arguments over millimeters that permeated prior editions. Second, there are a lot of "tactics" that revolve around 6 dice chuck it and f--- it in the metagame right now, which is not insurmountable, but take a little getting used to.

ashc
02-07-2013, 18:00
Thank you for all the responses, excellent feedback. Of the armies released so far, what are the feelings towards them?

IcedCrow
02-07-2013, 18:21
Are you interested in overall or are you interested in the tournament point of view?

ashc
02-07-2013, 18:31
overall, in general. No interest in tournaments.

boli
02-07-2013, 18:51
overall, in general. No interest in tournaments.

In a general rough sense all armies have a decent spread of options; however the older the army book the less options there are.

E.g. wood elf, beastmen, dwarves, brets tend to have only one or two tactics and very similar options to compete, even in a none-tournament setting the newer armies tend to have more options.

Tau_player001
02-07-2013, 19:07
overall, in general. No interest in tournaments.

I will take for granted you are asking about gameplay, since if it was about the looks. you would had decided yourself already ;)

That depends, i play HE because i like to be very active on every phase of the game, the theme, and the book being versatile enough to play other kind of lists so i am not playing a monobuild book. What kind of gameplay are you expecting to play? Sturdy units, hordes, fast elite armies, shooting armies, etc etc

Edit - IcedCrow made it even easier for you :D

IcedCrow
02-07-2013, 19:45
overall, in general. No interest in tournaments.

Horde army with lots of troops - Orcs and Goblins and Skaven. Skaven are in the intro box, they are also considered a powerful book still due to cheap and abuseable slaves as well as the Dreaded 13th spell and the six-dicing mechanics that are popular.

Empire - humans - middling book. Can be offensive or defensive.
Bretonnians - humans on mostly cav - middling to lower book due to its age but if you like King Arthur then this is your army. Mainly aggressive army.

Dark Elves - higher tier book due to a couple of abusable items. Overall older army book though. Aggressive army.

High Elves - newest book. Great internal balance. Middling book. Elite army. Good magic. Mobile. Fast with solid troop choices. Paired with skaven in the starter box. Sweet models in there. Can be aggressive or defensive.

Wood elves - old book. Poor balance. Considered very weak due to a play style not supported by current edition. Not really sure how to class them. Mainly a run away and try to pick off 100 more points to claim a win army.

Vampire Counts - middling book, fun choices, stronger of the two undead books. Some very nice big models. Defensive counter punch with some aggressive elements.
Tomb Kings - lower tier book. Hard to play properly, but some nice big models as well. Mostly skeletons. Slow. Middling magic. Poor in combat. Requires good player skill to use properly. Egyptian flavor. Defensive counter punch army.

Dwarves - older book. Suffer same issue as wood elves do. Can be good depending on player skill, but lack of viable options make it a mono build army. Rumor has it new book on the horizon. Defensive army.

Lizardmen - getting new book next month. Great magic. Solid troops. Dinosaurs.

Warriors of Chaos - one of the top books. Great models. Demonic vikings. Strong troops. One of the best combat armies. Good magic. Little shooting. Heavy armor. Elite or taken as marauder horde. Aggressive in your face army.

Demons of Chaos - one of the newer books. Middle to lower powered. A lot of random elements. Some nice models. Decent in combat. Monsters are powerful but susceptible to cannonballs to the face one shot death. Little shooting. Decent magic. Aggressive in your face army.

Beasts of Chaos - old book. Hard to use properly. Swarms of mutated beast men backed by chariots and monsters. Aggressive in your face army.

Ogre Kingdoms - solid book. Considered up there with warriors. Powerfulbuilds. Good in combat. Decent ranged options. Decent support magic. Great monster army. Aggressive.

Captain Collius
02-07-2013, 19:51
Thank you for all the responses, excellent feedback. Of the armies released so far, what are the feelings towards them?


As IcedCrow put forth there is a difference in how armies are viewed but I will Expound my basic points of view.

1. Orcs and Goblins-an army that has 1 "power-build" but is very fun to play. A handful of great models and some variety.

2. Tomb Kings- in my opinion they are the best looking model range in the game they are a bit tricky to play but they can work.

3. Vampire Counts-Very powerful lords and hero choices. Bleh core. Good looking models and Terrogheists.

4. Warriors of Chaos- Some good looking models but their playstyle is a bit boring for my taste.

5. Ogre Kingdoms an army Of Monstrous Infantry that has M 6 FAst and killy. But take a Hellheart enemy casters can destroy you.

6. Empire- Lots of dudes and some Good Cavalry also a fair amounmt of warmachines. I'm not a fan of their models but they can be fun.

7. High Elves-The book is balanced lots of high output infantry and shooting, good cavalry. However they are not a grinding army. Also be prepared for rage against BOTWD.

8. Demons of Chaos- Opinions on this book vary wildly. If you like Nurgle your in buisness. Khorne is pretty good. Slaanesh and Tzeentch will take a little work.

Overall my favorite books would be
High Elves, Ogres and VC's.

Good luck

IcedCrow
02-07-2013, 20:10
I also forgot Chaos Dwarves - forge world army list - very good list, very nice models - demonic dwarves, demonic war engines, decent fighting ability, chaffe with hobgoblins.

ashc
03-07-2013, 06:41
I don't think my bank account could cope with Chaos Dwarfs, although they are very cool!

I have some high elves already, but I'm tempted by warriors of chaos.

m1acca1551
03-07-2013, 07:00
I don't think my bank account could cope with Chaos Dwarfs, although they are very cool!

I have some high elves already, but I'm tempted by warriors of chaos.

Warriors are really quite fun, the new miniatures really have breathed some new life into what was becoming a tired 1 dimensional army, of slowly walk forward with your deathstar and hordes of maruaders to simply smash your enemy to bits. Plenty of builds that are all powerful but without being cheesey, power builds are there, but you can decide wether to walk that road or not.

For the most part, the new books are good, nothing game breaking apart from a few magic items and 1 banner...

There is a much better balance now, my VC have seen a massive swelling in numbers as the book actually allows me to choose what I want and still have a good chance of victory.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-07-2013, 07:26
Warriors and Ogres quite frankly are "noob" armies. Under the hands of a vet. they will be great, but the ceiling caps at a certain point. They are hard to make mistakes with during the building and playing phase. While armies like Elves, or Undead require a more intensive skill to command due to their nature on the table top and army quirks -not forgiving.

Captain Collius
03-07-2013, 13:11
I don't think my bank account could cope with Chaos Dwarfs, although they are very cool!

I have some high elves already, but I'm tempted by warriors of chaos.

Then go for it!!

Warriors are fun but you do have to keep in mind you will always be outnumbered therefore knowing that you are likely to win most combat phases you need to win movement and at least tie in magic to dominate the game you are playing.