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DoomVendor
03-07-2013, 21:39
So I've always loved making up models with cool rules an etc. so I decided to try and make a character for my necrons to use with friends for non-competitive games. The theme is that Natharix is an overlord who became fascinated with cryptek powers and perfected despair magic for his own use. This is what I have so far:

Natharix, the Despair Lord
260 Points

WS:4 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:2 A:3 Sv:2+ Ld:10 In (I.Ch)

Special Rules: Fearless, Reanimation Protocols, Ever-Living, Fear, Eternal Warrior

Master of Darkness: While Natharix is alive all units using veil of darkness roll one less d6 for scatter.

Shroud of Terror: Whenever one or more wounds is allocated to Natharix he may take a leadership test on 4d6 for each wound. If it is failed saves are taken as normal. If passed the wound is ignored.

Wargear: Weave, Veil of Darkness, Despairscythe, Nightmare Shroud

Despairscythe: Despairscythe is treated as a warscythe. However, when a wound is allocated to an enemy model by the Despairscythe, before saving throws are rolled, the model must take a leadership test on 2D6. If it is failed the model suffers instant death from any unsaved wound from the despairscythe this turn.

-Natharix may take a royal court however it may NOT contain necron lords

I'm not sure as to if my point cost is appropriate or not. Suggestion for changes are appreciated. :) Edits are in red

RobPro
03-07-2013, 23:28
Fearless is what puts your character over the top. Take that away and you're fine.

Avatar_exADV
04-07-2013, 00:51
Honestly, no way.

"Character causes his unit's deep strike not to scatter" is a powerful special rule. "Character causes a particular unit type to be able to deep strike without scatter" is a VERY powerful special rule. "Character causes any unit you attach a cryptek to, to be able to deep-strike repeatedly without scatter" is crazy. No army gets to pull that stunt.

On top of that, the instant death on the warscythe is overkill. You could maybe justify "pass a leadership test or suffer instant death", but on 3D6? That's a special rule which is damned rare, and almost never found on AP2 weapons. Even force weapons aren't that good and they require a psychic test and warp charge.

The restriction is effectively meaningless, just another "keep me from taking units I did not want and in exchange give me something for the units I did want".

Realistically, the problem is that you're trying to design an HQ that is both a beast in close combat and ALSO has powerful army-wide buffs. Very few HQs fall into both categories and they generally have major drawbacks (like Mephiston not being an independent character). If you want a guy with great support abilities, don't also try to make him able to take on a warboss in CC and win every time, unless you want people to call BS.

DoomVendor
04-07-2013, 02:23
Honestly, no way.

"Character causes his unit's deep strike not to scatter" is a powerful special rule. "Character causes a particular unit type to be able to deep strike without scatter" is a VERY powerful special rule. "Character causes any unit you attach a cryptek to, to be able to deep-strike repeatedly without scatter" is crazy. No army gets to pull that stunt.

On top of that, the instant death on the warscythe is overkill. You could maybe justify "pass a leadership test or suffer instant death", but on 3D6? That's a special rule which is damned rare, and almost never found on AP2 weapons. Even force weapons aren't that good and they require a psychic test and warp charge.

The restriction is effectively meaningless, just another "keep me from taking units I did not want and in exchange give me something for the units I did want".

Realistically, the problem is that you're trying to design an HQ that is both a beast in close combat and ALSO has powerful army-wide buffs. Very few HQs fall into both categories and they generally have major drawbacks (like Mephiston not being an independent character). If you want a guy with great support abilities, don't also try to make him able to take on a warboss in CC and win every time, unless you want people to call BS.
Veil of darkness is a one time use so I can't use it repeatedly like you said. Also only one despairtek with veil of darkness may be taken per royal court so the max you will ever have is 3 one-time use veils (Natharix included) if you spend the points for another HQ with a royal court. 65 points points for each despairtek isn't exactly nothing either. I agree with the 3d6 i'll change it to a normal test.

Custodian
04-07-2013, 02:55
Veil of darkness is a one time use so I can't use it repeatedly like you said. Also only one despairtek with veil of darkness may be taken per royal court so the max you will ever have is 3 one-time use veils (Natharix included) if you spend the points for another HQ with a royal court. 65 points points for each despairtek isn't exactly nothing either. I agree with the 3d6 i'll change it to a normal test.

You are seriously gimping yourself if you think Veil is One Use Only. No Scatter is too unreasonable on all Veils, make it just Natharix and you have a good character.

Baaltor
04-07-2013, 04:48
WS:5 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:2 A:3 Sv:2 15 pts

Special Rules: Fearless, Reanimation Protocols, Ever-Living, Fear, Eternal Warrior 35 pts

Master of Darkness: While Natharix is alive all units using veil of darkness in your army do not scatter. 80 pts

Darkened Madness: Natharix has the feel no pain special rule 30 pts

Wargear: Weave, Mindshackle Scarabs, Veil of Darkness, Despairscythe 100 pts

Despairscythe: Despairscythe is treated as a warscythe. However, when a wound is allocated to an enemy model by the Despairscythe, before saving throws are rolled, the model must take a leadership test on 2D6. If it is failed the model suffers instant death from any unsaved wound from the despairscythe this turn.

-Natharix may take a royal court however it may NOT contain necron lords -10 pts


I'd put the character at like 340* points personally. My mine gripe about this character is most of these abilities are just random stuff that make him better for no reason. You have your "He's a lord with Veil of Darkness" theme, and that's a good one, but where does the WS 5, fearless etc. come from?

*I know that's unusable, but giving him all these bells and whistles, especially such puissant ones does add up.

WS:5 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:2 A:3 Sv:2 First thing I'd do is trim this, no purpose, and it's cluttering the character up

Special Rules: Fearless, Reanimation Protocols, Ever-Living, Fear, Eternal Warrior 35 pts I think this is a little much gravy, but it fits in with the theme of your character readily

Master of Darkness: While Natharix is alive all units using veil of darkness in your army do not scatter. Too much. Way too much. Give him the ability to not scatter when he uses it, at 50 points it's still a good ability

Darkened Madness: Natharix has the feel no pain special rule Trim this, there's no reason he has feel no pain other than you want it

Wargear: Weave, Mindshackle Scarabs, Veil of Darkness, Despairscythe It's okay to have these upgrades, because they're normal lord stuff, but improving the already over the top doomscythe is a bit of a dubious prospect. The despair scythe you have lined up is prolly 40 points itself.

With that update, I'd call the character like maybe ~270

I'd reccomend parring down the wargear amongst other things to get the character to a usable price. It's worth noting I costed the warscythe as 40 points, a price more reasonable than the 10pt pitance in the book.

Ichshadon
04-07-2013, 04:51
I can't believe you guys actually pretend this character would be fine like this, I mean seriously? If this thing was in the codex for that amount of points people would auto include it in every list!

S5 T 5, 2+ armour save + feel no pain + reanimation + eternal warrior + everliving + fearless + AP2 instant death + mindshackle scarabs + army wide mega buff (which he too gets to use!!).....

Seriously? That's got to be one of the most over the top broken characters I have seen so far, you could throw that thing into almost any unit and it would either rip them to shreds, or at least bind them for all eternity and more....and all that for 240 Points? that's about as much as my fully decked out wolf lord, but even he's not even close to THAT overpowered!

This character sounds more like a child's "I wanna be the cool guy that kills everything" idea and not like a balanced, fair, not competitive character to use against friends! Put that character somewhere at 350 points and MAYBE, just MAYBE your friends won't just stand up and leave you to play on your own right away if you show it to them.

But hey, that's just my opinion......just please....no body show this character to Matt Ward, he might like it too much and add him to the next incarnation of necrons...

DoomVendor
04-07-2013, 14:07
Thanks for the input everyone. I'll definitely make some changes. I said I was unsure of the points and abilities which is why I made this thread in the first place. I would appreciate if I could get only advice instead of "omg no way this character is OP". I gave him fearless since he mastered cryptek terror powers, so I don't see why he would be scared himself. Also all necrons have extremely high leadership so its not as useful as in other armies.

DoomVendor
04-07-2013, 14:12
How about rolling one less D6 for scatter? I know most of you have said the no scatter rule is far too powerful so I'm wondering if this rule would be more balanced with his points cost now.

RobPro
04-07-2013, 23:55
You do know an army can only have 2 Veils (3 with Obyron, but I think his veil is called something different so this rule wouldn't affect him), and it would require 2 overlords to get the Veils? I guess this guy comes with a free one, but you can't assault after you DS so I don't really see a huge advantage to it.

I think the ability to make a blob of 20 warriors (or flayed ones or to a lesser extent lychguard) fearless is what puts this guy over the top.

How about having the model take a toughness test or the wounds become ID? Or maybe once per game before any attacks are rolled but after challenges you declare to make his attacks ID but on 1's to wound they do an unsavable wound to your guy?

Making him WS4 brings him back into the realm of reason, too. Get rid of his mindshackle scarabs and make him 240 again.

red_drake
05-07-2013, 00:29
Personally I'd remove eternal warrior an feel no pain.
They seem tacked on, and make this guy seriously ridiculous.

DoomVendor
05-07-2013, 00:33
You do know an army can only have 2 Veils (3 with Obyron, but I think his veil is called something different so this rule wouldn't affect him), and it would require 2 overlords to get the Veils? I guess this guy comes with a free one, but you can't assault after you DS so I don't really see a huge advantage to it.

I think the ability to make a blob of 20 warriors (or flayed ones or to a lesser extent lychguard) fearless is what puts this guy over the top.

How about having the model take a toughness test or the wounds become ID? Or maybe once per game before any attacks are rolled but after challenges you declare to make his attacks ID but on 1's to wound they do an unsavable wound to your guy?

Making him WS4 brings him back into the realm of reason, too. Get rid of his mindshackle scarabs and make him 240 again.
Thanks for the advice! The only problem with saying fearless is OP is that necrons already have that and its nearly never used. Destroyer Lords give their unit fearless AND preferred enemy. In a way its even better. Blobs of warriors hasn't seen much love in competitive play either. I could be wrong but just my thoughts on that. As for the test I would really prefer to keep his abilities based on leadership, as despairteks are completely based on this. I wanted the mindshakle scarabs since they kinda fit the theme of terror and messing with his opponent's mind, but are they too good to keep on him?

DoomVendor
05-07-2013, 00:36
Personally I'd remove eternal warrior an feel no pain.
They seem tacked on, and make this guy seriously ridiculous.
I removed the feel no pain but does eternal warrior really make him that broken? He has no saves after his armor unlike nearly every other expensive HQ has in necrons (Imotekh has a 2+ and a 3++ save with eternal warrior AND he costs less with more abilities).

Menthak
05-07-2013, 00:41
I wanted the mindshakle scarabs since they kinda fit the theme of terror and messing with his opponent's mind, but are they too good to keep on him?

Looking at your Character, I thought that Terror was more spread through misdirection and constant threat, rather than a forced take-over of a foe's mind, just a little thing

DoomVendor
05-07-2013, 00:59
Looking at your Character, I thought that Terror was more spread through misdirection and constant threat, rather than a forced take-over of a foe's mind, just a little thing
Alright, I see what you mean I removed the MSS. What do you guys think about the shroud of terror ability? On a 260 point model having a weaker feel no pain doesn't seem too unreasonable. It also fits with the theme in my opinion.

Menthak
05-07-2013, 01:14
Alright, I see what you mean I removed the MSS. What do you guys think about the shroud of terror ability? On a 260 point model having a weaker feel no pain doesn't seem too unreasonable. It also fits with the theme in my opinion.

I'd play it, even if "Shroud of Terror: Whenever one or more wounds is allocated to Natharix he may take a leadership test on 4d6 for each wound. If it is failed saves are taken as normal. If passed the wound is ignored." is a bit of an awkward rule (not a bad thing).

Also, one nit-pick "Natharix, the Despair Lord" sounds better as "Natharix, the Lord of Despair" to me (But that's an opinion and he's your character)

DoomVendor
05-07-2013, 01:19
I'd play it, even if "Shroud of Terror: Whenever one or more wounds is allocated to Natharix he may take a leadership test on 4d6 for each wound. If it is failed saves are taken as normal. If passed the wound is ignored." is a bit of an awkward rule (not a bad thing).

Also, one nit-pick "Natharix, the Despair Lord" sounds better as "Natharix, the Lord of Despair" to me (But that's an opinion and he's your character)
I agree that sounds better but the necron names seem to be like the way I have it now ie. Imotekh the stormlord

IcedAnimals
05-07-2013, 07:39
Honestly, as it is right now the only way to figure out balance would be to get some play tests. The rules look solid. See if you can get some friends to do a couple 1500 point games and use him. Then let us know how it went. I love when people make their own characters. So I look forward to the results.

RobPro
05-07-2013, 13:40
Thanks for the advice! The only problem with saying fearless is OP is that necrons already have that and its nearly never used. Destroyer Lords give their unit fearless AND preferred enemy. In a way its even better. Blobs of warriors hasn't seen much love in competitive play either. I could be wrong but just my thoughts on that. As for the test I would really prefer to keep his abilities based on leadership, as despairteks are completely based on this. I wanted the mindshakle scarabs since they kinda fit the theme of terror and messing with his opponent's mind, but are they too good to keep on him?

Destroyer Lords -ARE NOT- fearless. There is only one fearless unit with reanimation protocols currently (Triarch Praetorians), and they're not really a threat to anyone. Destroyer Lords are actually used all the time in competitive play, and people stick them with Wraiths or Scarabs because that will make them fearless.

I think giving him lots of weird LD test abilities makes it clunky to resolve his actions in combat.

I would remove mindshackle scarabs as they are pretty over the top. Your character is going to be pretty good at CC, he doesn't need that too. Why do you think almost none of the other special characters have mindshackle or a warscythe?

Grocklock
05-07-2013, 15:47
What is the reason why he is so feared, and what horrors in his life has he enjured to worrent being fearless.

Because at the minuite it comes over that u went though the rulebook and took good rules with no other reason other then they are good.

Half of a good character design is in the backstory.

DoomVendor
06-07-2013, 10:58
What is the reason why he is so feared, and what horrors in his life has he enjured to worrent being fearless.

Because at the minuite it comes over that u went though the rulebook and took good rules with no other reason other then they are good.

Half of a good character design is in the backstory.
Cryptek despair powers are completely based upon fear and terror so thats why I added fear. He also had to overcome his own fear in order to control others, giving him fearless.

Destroyer Lords -ARE NOT- fearless. There is only one fearless unit with reanimation protocols currently (Triarch Praetorians), and they're not really a threat to anyone. Destroyer Lords are actually used all the time in competitive play, and people stick them with Wraiths or Scarabs because that will make them fearless.

I think giving him lots of weird LD test abilities makes it clunky to resolve his actions in combat.

I would remove mindshackle scarabs as they are pretty over the top. Your character is going to be pretty good at CC, he doesn't need that too. Why do you think almost none of the other special characters have mindshackle or a warscythe?
My mistake on the destroyer lord having fearless. Yes, I know destroyer lords are very good but you don't see big blobs of 15-20 warriors in a usual list as competitive lists are made of 5-10 warriors at most normally in a scythe, ark, or sitting on an objective or fortification. Also warriors are Ld 10 so morale checks are more rarely failed than with most other army squads. I agreed with the MSS and they are already removed. I agree that the LD abilities can be clunky, how can I replace them without losing the theme of the character?

Asura Varuna
06-07-2013, 15:50
Why is he an Eternal Warrior? People bandy this rule around a lot just because they don't want to get ID'd by smashing monstrous creatures or force weapons. Have you considered why he has this rule? What it represents etc?

As a Chaos player, our only Eternal Warrior is Abaddon. This guy is the baddest cat in the Imperium, leading the largest Chaos Marine army in existence. He's fought in wars for ten thousand years and gained the favour of the four most powerful entities in the Warp. He is the chosen champion of all of Chaos and the man poised on the edge of destroying the entire Imperium of Man. That's why he's an Eternal Warrior. Who is your guy? What makes him so special?

I'm not saying he shouldn't have it, but just wondering how you're justifying it.

To be honest, with the reductions you've made he's getting rather reasonable. Compared, for example, to Abaddon, he's still likely to get mulched in combat by the Herald of Chaos, but he's far more of a force multiplier.

Gazak Blacktoof
06-07-2013, 15:50
Why not stick to the despairtek wargear (plus a warscythe)? He could also but reduce the leadership of nearby units, thereby making him better. If he has mastered fear I don't see any reason he couldn't be so dominating and terrifying that he makes units more likely to fail leadership based tests. He would also improve your other despairteks.

As a component of his back-story he could have vanquished and imprisoned a particularly terrifying C'Tan and now uses a sliver of their power to enhance his own abilities.

Sepulchre of Nightmares- All enemy units within 12" reduce their leadership by 1, to a minimum of 2.

Master of Fear- If chosen Natharix must be your Warlord and always has the Intimidating Presence and Night Attacker Warlord Traits. Do not roll for any additional Warlord Traits at the start of a battle.