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cornonthecob
07-07-2013, 22:04
Heres my thought, Wyrd, Privateer Press and a hell of a lot of other games companies survive without a dedicated store. Could GW do the same and save money by just closing there stores and creating some kind of 'henchmen' system to sell/demo games.

Bad monkey
07-07-2013, 22:27
Probably, but then they lose thier usp. Despite what some may think about the store staff/policies they are incredibly good at keeping up their profile and growing the customer base.

No matter how invaluable a website is never doubt the benefit of a high street presence.

SlaughterSun
07-07-2013, 22:29
If i recall correctly they already had a similar system with the "outriders" (i think that was their name) but from what i rember they dropped the program for unknown (at least to me) reasons.

Bad monkey
07-07-2013, 22:31
Was that not thier push into Northern Europe?

SlaughterSun
07-07-2013, 22:36
I live in Portugal and we had some here. They were dropped for unknown reasons some years ago and to be honest if I remember correctly, not even the outriders were given a proper reason (I know some of them here and this is what i recall from the conversations at the time).

Scaryscarymushroom
07-07-2013, 22:50
Probably, but then they lose thier usp. Despite what some may think about the store staff/policies they are incredibly good at keeping up their profile and growing the customer base.

No matter how invaluable a website is never doubt the benefit of a high street presence.

As with any conversation regarding the actual usefulness of their stores, this is much more true in the UK than it is in areas like mine, where the nearest GW store is 700+ miles away. Indies proliferate the hobby here - GW depends on them greatly in America.

As far as the title question (as it would apply in America): No. But only because their henchmen would inevitably gain an intimate knowledge of the company's inner workings, embittering most of them and largely destroying their passion for GW games. Then, lacking direction for their dedication, which would exist with or without GW, they'd start promoting other games. ;)

Omniassiah
07-07-2013, 22:53
Heres my thought, Wyrd, Privateer Press and a hell of a lot of other games companies survive without a dedicated store. Could GW do the same and save money by just closing there stores and creating some kind of 'henchmen' system to sell/demo games.
Outside of the Uk almost certainly, inside the UK probably but would take an initial hit due to lack of independents.

Probably, but then they lose thier usp. Despite what some may think about the store staff/policies they are incredibly good at keeping up their profile and growing the customer base.

No matter how invaluable a website is never doubt the benefit of a high street presence.
Remember Bad monkey that is something that you only see in the UK. There is a Million+ people in my neck of the woods and the closest GW store is almost a 2 hour drive away. The idea that they are needed is a wild overstatement, as many places do just fine with expanding the player base through clubs and independents.

Bad monkey
07-07-2013, 22:54
It imagine it would make it quite hard to measure the effect of an outrider in an area, in terms of customer capture, i think this what they were for, im in scotland so we never got them and its going back a good 15-20 years.

What they would be good for would be market research, going to clubs and tourneys, getting face time with the public outside of thier stores, and real people feedback rather than solely relying on the interweb.

To be fair if be surprised if they aren't already doing this.

Bad monkey
07-07-2013, 22:57
Outside of the Uk almost certainly, inside the UK probably but would take an initial hit due to lack of independents.

Remember Bad monkey that is something that you only see in the UK. There is a Million+ people in my neck of the woods and the closest GW store is almost a 2 hour drive away. The idea that they are needed is a wild overstatement, as many places do just fine with expanding the player base through clubs and independents.

No totally fair point, and I agree that they may well be good in areas like myself and I see nothing outside uk, however the stores are still an important asset for the stated reasons.

Omniassiah
07-07-2013, 23:16
No totally fair point, and I agree that they may well be good in areas like myself and I see nothing outside uk, however the stores are still an important asset for the stated reasons.

They may be an asset, but it a specific asset that is only available to GW stores? To that I would say no. My local area had a thriving and growing GW scene without the presence of a single GW store. It was created through clubs and the local independents with the occasional outrider helping out at larger events. It is still there today somewhat, mostly slowed down due to the prices of GW products. While I have seen more people coming in and start playing most of the models they are using that aren't new releases are second hand from people trimming down the number of armies they have. This is not a good scenario for GW for their sales and not something that the introduction of a GW store would fix.

ehlijen
07-07-2013, 23:58
Stores do more than just offer places to play. They also help make a promise that this is a game that will last and is big. Even if you have no store near you, those facts might help persuade you to believe that GW games are a better long term fun purchase than a game from a struggling upstart company. And GW needs that because the buy in is so much higher with them.

Stores are not the end all be all, even for GW, but their importance goes, at least somewhat, beyond the area actually supplied by each store.

Without stores, GW could survive, but only if they scaled their games back to either smaller model scale or skirmish level. The unspoken promise of endurance that is a store chain (whether they can still back it up or not, financially) and the lack of recruitment outside the gaming scene would deprive them of the means to support a game that is so much more expensive than most of their competitors.

On the one hand, it'd make GW have to learn to compete for their customers (a good thing) but on the other, 40k and WHFB as we know them would go away, and seeing as many people do play and apparently like those games, I'd count that as a bad thing.

Omniassiah
08-07-2013, 00:45
Sorry, I don't buy that ehlijen. I never even knew that GW had stores till after I had been playing for several years, never stopped me, The two games I currently play, Battletech and FoW, don't have stores at all. For the vast majority of people all a game needs to qualify for longevity is to be constantly releasing new product. When that stops even temporary, for example Battletech, or is intermittent, see Rackham with AT-43/Confrontation, then people start to believe that the game is dead or dying. In addition to that the game needs a solid player base. Now getting that is the hard part, and even having your own stores will do almost nothing for you and is more likely to run you out of business before you get enough players.

SleeplessKnight
08-07-2013, 02:24
One of the main purposes of the GW storefront is to recruit new people into the hobby. During the early to mid 2000's there were stores that operated at a loss and their only purpose was to recruit new people into the hobby who would end up buying from the independent down the street that sold stuff at 10% off. Regardless of where it was sold, GW product was still being bought so GW still made money off of that. While this strategy was true of the policies of the old Canadian head office, it's likely different now that they're long gone along with the old US head Ernie Baker and Sandra Casey is running the show at the US head office.

The customers of Privateer Press, Wyrd and those other companies are people who are already into gaming or painting miniatures. While it may be the case that for some people non GW games were their first exposure to miniature gaming, especially in areas that don't have a GW store present, chances are, they were already into something related or sold in the same store be it, board games, CCGs, comics, action figures etc. Or they at least knew someone or had a friend who exposed miniature gaming to them.

GW's customer is someone who is NOT into gaming or painting and attempting to steer them towards it. Believe me that's a lot harder than it sounds. One out of maybe 10 intro games became an actual sale. This creates someone who is into gaming and painting who will hopefully expose their friends to it. While I'm not going to attribute other companies successes to piggybacking off GW (new gamers who note that a non-GW game was their first miniature game is proof enough of this), I'm pretty sure it helps as these new gamers are eventually exposed to non-GW stuff that is new to them.

During casual conversation with the upper management from the now defunct Canadian Head office, I learned that the Outrider program was an abysmal failure. While there were some outriders who did a great job recruiting in places where GW had little exposure, there were far too many who were apart of it just to abuse the system. When an outrider has 8 of his friends hang out in his basement for beers and gaming, and calls it his "event." That doesn't do much for recruitment. Unfortunately, rather than weed these people out, they just shut down the program because it was easier.

Inquisitor Engel
08-07-2013, 04:14
GW COULD survive with this model, but it would need to be severely modified.

GW should do the following with their own stores:



Close down excessive local stores. If there's two stores within a given [market research determined] area, consolidate. Either close the lower-performing one and up-staff the other, or close both, consolidate staffs and create a bigger store in the middle.
Expansion of the stores you keep.
Make 'showroom' stores with LOTS of models on display, both in the window and IN THE STORE. Hire vetted, quality mass painting services in asia for this purpose. No more employee armies on display.
Anything you order from a web-kiosk in a GW store ships to your house for free. Forge World, Black Library, Fantasy Flight, doesn't matter. All ship, 3-5 days free. Big discounts on next-day shipping, too. This allows you to 'carry' a much wide range of products than your shelf space.
Weekdays are open gaming. Weekends are for tutorials only. (There's logic here, trust me.)


GW should do the following with LGS stores:



Bring back Outriders, but as PAID outside sales reps, not volunteers. Think Samsung employees in Best Buy.
Drop the minimum order quantity, but require more stringent stock checks (by Outriders) that things aren't selling.
Create a tiered cost system. The more an LGS sells, the cheaper it can order items for. What they do with this discount is up to them.
Let LGS stores order ANYTHING. No more exclusives (other than event-specific models).
Depending on the sales figures for a given LGS, give incentives to create veterans and gaming nights. Discounts, promotional models, black boxes etc. You know, stuff like that.
Hire vetted, quality mass painting services in asia for this purpose. No more employee armies on display.


Feel free to add this to my list of how I would run GW from the GW Kickstarter thread. ;) If a GW headhunter is looking, feel free to PM me. :p

shelfunit.
08-07-2013, 07:52
Probably, but then they lose thier usp. Despite what some may think about the store staff/policies they are incredibly good at keeping up their profile and growing the customer base.

No matter how invaluable a website is never doubt the benefit of a high street presence.

Highlighted the important bit here. It would be great if they were growing their customer base via the shops, or even at all, but as the annual figures show, the number of paying customers GW are getting through their doors (or through any method) is falling, and has been for a number of years now.

jestacardo
08-07-2013, 12:00
Would probably be commercial suicide within the UK, which makes up the majority of their income.

Independent shops are extremely rare here, and I don't buy that they will suddenly pop up in order to fill the vacuum. Unlike the US we don't have cheap retail spaces, units on the high streets are extremely expensive and this is crucial to attracting new people into the hobby. And no bank is going to lend the start up capital needed for such a niche enterprise. I've only seen two independents in the last decade that have lasted more than a couple of years - one's based in London, and so hardly representative, and the other I believe was supported by their parent's financials early on.

shelfunit.
08-07-2013, 12:11
Would probably be commercial suicide within the UK, which makes up the majority of their income.

Do you mean that the GWs in the UK make up the most income (compared with other sources within the UK) for the UK as a total, or that the UK makes the most money for GW out of the world? If it's the first, you may be correct, but there are no figures that show this to be correct, and if you mean the UK as a proportion of world income then it is demonstrably wrong as the 6 month figures show that the UK makes a grand total of less than 23% of GWs total income - beaten by both the US (31%) and continental Europe (26%).

jestacardo
08-07-2013, 13:34
Sorry possibly poor choice of words, was referring to profit rather than revenue as it's the metric that really matters. From 2012 report:

Operating profit
Sales businesses
UK - 4,835,000

Continental Europe - 4,000,000

North America - 4,211,000

Making the UK their most profitable region.

shelfunit.
08-07-2013, 13:50
Sorry possibly poor choice of words, was referring to profit rather than revenue as it's the metric that really matters. From 2012 report:

Operating profit
Sales businesses
UK - 4,835,000

Continental Europe - 4,000,000

North America - 4,211,000

Making the UK their most profitable region.


True, but there are still no figures to show the breakdown of how that profit was achieved. The last time it was shown the sales from indies vs GW shops were at roughly 50/50 and the trend had been shifting from GW sales to indies in the previous years.

jtrowell
08-07-2013, 14:45
About UK sales, note that sales from discounters like Waylands are technically UK based, while they are probably selling a majority to other countries.

In fact, even if you ignore the discount themselves, UK based stores have the major advantage of getting to use GW UK prices missing on GW great exchanges rates for the rest of the world <sarcasm>.

For this reason, a large part of GW UK results is certainly just internationnal sales from resellers, but how much exactly, it's hard to say.

shelfunit.
08-07-2013, 14:51
About UK sales, note that sales from discounters like Waylands are technically UK based, while they are probably selling a majority to other countries.

In fact, even if you ignore the discount themselves, UK based stores have the major advantage of getting to use GW UK prices missing on GW great exchanges rates for the rest of the world <sarcasm>.

For this reason, a large part of GW UK results is certainly just internationnal sales from resellers, but how much exactly, it's hard to say.

Pre-embargo they would have been far higher, currently they can only be between the UK and EU though.

Reinholt
08-07-2013, 15:19
On the topic of profitability, much of that is also a question of how overheads are assigned to each division. For instance, if they just assign cost based on units sold for things like HR, warehousing, logistics involved with retail chain setup/stocking, etc., then some regions are being overcharged and some regions are being undercharged.

Absent that, don't put too much faith in per-region profitability. A lot of companies play games with this (often accidentally, as they just don't know they are allocating costs improperly), and it obscures profitability.

Kisanis
08-07-2013, 19:19
GW COULD survive with this model, but it would need to be severely modified.

GW should do the following with their own stores:



Close down excessive local stores. If there's two stores within a given [market research determined] area, consolidate. Either close the lower-performing one and up-staff the other, or close both, consolidate staffs and create a bigger store in the middle.
Expansion of the stores you keep.
Make 'showroom' stores with LOTS of models on display, both in the window and IN THE STORE. Hire vetted, quality mass painting services in asia for this purpose. No more employee armies on display.
Anything you order from a web-kiosk in a GW store ships to your house for free. Forge World, Black Library, Fantasy Flight, doesn't matter. All ship, 3-5 days free. Big discounts on next-day shipping, too. This allows you to 'carry' a much wide range of products than your shelf space.
Weekdays are open gaming. Weekends are for tutorials only. (There's logic here, trust me.)


GW should do the following with LGS stores:



Bring back Outriders, but as PAID outside sales reps, not volunteers. Think Samsung employees in Best Buy.
Drop the minimum order quantity, but require more stringent stock checks (by Outriders) that things aren't selling.
Create a tiered cost system. The more an LGS sells, the cheaper it can order items for. What they do with this discount is up to them.
Let LGS stores order ANYTHING. No more exclusives (other than event-specific models).
Depending on the sales figures for a given LGS, give incentives to create veterans and gaming nights. Discounts, promotional models, black boxes etc. You know, stuff like that.
Hire vetted, quality mass painting services in asia for this purpose. No more employee armies on display.



This. GW (in some markets, the UK is its own case) need to behave more like a proper business selling goods to customers via third party retailers. Hire reps, who travel, check stock, note whats moving, and have access to sales records (all needed to stock GW) and do this as their full time job. They are there sometimes just to check merchandising standards, other days for promo events, and other days for Q&A, teaching, intro games, etc... They may have a few 500 point army lists they (as noted) are mass produced/painted (or augmented by the reps own models/minis, but there needs to be at least some standardizing) for the puroposes of demo-ing.

These people need to be the human face of the company - Human face. I know there was someone who did stuff like this in my old LGS when I was in High School, but he did it in his own time, and was not really paid for it (so I was lead to beleive by the store operators).

GW's current method of 'fire and forget' indie store startup packages just doesn't hold traction. You need to connect with the stores, connect with the customers, and be that word of mouth generator. Passive advertising no longer works (and most social media campaigns are still passive) Stable, responsible growth is the key to them surviving.

Tastyfish
08-07-2013, 19:54
This. GW (in some markets, the UK is its own case) need to behave more like a proper business selling goods to customers via third party retailers. Hire reps, who travel, check stock, note whats moving, and have access to sales records (all needed to stock GW) and do this as their full time job. They are there sometimes just to check merchandising standards, other days for promo events, and other days for Q&A, teaching, intro games, etc... They may have a few 500 point army lists they (as noted) are mass produced/painted (or augmented by the reps own models/minis, but there needs to be at least some standardizing) for the puroposes of demo-ing.


All well and good in theory, though I think most companies who do this sort of thing (like in department stores) are probably orders of magnitude larger than GW.

mostlyharmless
08-07-2013, 23:05
All well and good in theory, though I think most companies who do this sort of thing (like in department stores) are probably orders of magnitude larger than GW.

It's still a solid and viable business model, regardless of the size. If GW is interested in expanding their audience, this is the best way to do it. There are few things move effective than boots on the ground.

I got into the hobby at the tail end of the Outrider program, so I only made it to a couple of their events. They were alot of fun, well worth my time. This was back in the days of Storm of Chaos, where you actually could go to events that would decide the outcome of the campaign.

Inquisitor Engel
09-07-2013, 03:39
This.

Thanks!

Maybe someone from GW will read this and take some inspiration. Or hire me. :shifty:

Avatar_exADV
09-07-2013, 03:41
This isn't likely to happen.

One of the things you need to remember about corporate governance is that you develop internal constituencies. Theoretically everyone is thinking about the company as a whole, but in practice you're going to tend to push policies that make your role more important and give you access to greater resources. GW Retail is a significant part of the company; certainly it employs more people than the rest of the company put together, and probably has more associated people in management than the rest of the company put together. You and I, not being stakeholders in GW, can sit around and say "yeah, they would probably be better off just shutting most of those stores," but obviously someone who works for GW Retail is going to have a different opinion (after all, you're suggesting laying them all off!)

On top of that, since the retail department is so large relative to the bit of the company that designs models, runs warehouses, writes terrible fluff, etc., other departments which aren't necessarily aligned with retail are going to agree. If you have a ten-person HR department and the company suggests sacking 90% of its employees, you're going to lose lots of your people too. For that matter, even senior management isn't impervious to that kind of thinking - running a small company is different and typically not as well compensated as running a big one, so they're going to prefer to be "big" and claim the rewards for that.

It's hard for the board to overrule senior management in that kind of strategy sense - GW would have to be completely pissing its business down its leg for that sort of thing to become likely, not the ho-hum, another year of moderate profit that they've been churning out for a while now.

Honestly, while we're talking about stores as the gateway drug, I'd think they could use the video game licensing as a way to get the word out more effectively. Certainly I played lots of Dawn of War before I ever considered picking up a paintbrush.

Lothlanathorian
09-07-2013, 07:27
Tangent: I'd like to see a chart of demographics showing how many got into Warhams because of the video games, how many via exposure to BL 'literature', how many through FLGS, GW store, friends, etc. Think I'll start a thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?376276-Wargaming-and-you-A-tale-of-discovery!&p=6837145#post6837145) about it...

Naley
12-07-2013, 19:18
For me they can only survive as a webstore if they remove "the taxes". For me as a norwegian customer I have to buy from the norwegian page. This page has norwegian retail price on it, a fellow norwegian have discovered that this is with tax included(GW claims). Yet many of us still get taxesfrom the tax office since "the tax" GW claims are not ending up in norwegian hands, but in their own pockets. This causes more expensive minis. The toll fee 25% of the total price + extra fee 70-150 nok for the paper work. Therfore I only buy at my local indie wich only takes Norwegian Retail Price. The second sad thing is that there are certain products you dont get in a indie shop. But love the physical shops, when I visit UK, Spain etc. or the capital in Norway I usually make a visit(and most likley collect a big order with direct only stuff:D)

f2k
12-07-2013, 19:25
For me they can only survive as a webstore if they remove "the taxes". For me as a norwegian customer I have to buy from the norwegian page. This page has norwegian retail price on it, a fellow norwegian have discovered that this is with tax included(GW claims). Yet many of us still get taxesfrom the tax office since "the tax" GW claims are not ending up in norwegian hands, but in their own pockets. This causes more expensive minis. The toll fee 25% of the total price + extra fee 70-150 nok for the paper work. Therfore I only buy at my local indie wich only takes Norwegian Retail Price. The second sad thing is that there are certain products you dont get in a indie shop. But love the physical shops, when I visit UK, Spain etc. or the capital in Norway I usually make a visit(and most likley collect a big order with direct only stuff:D)

Huh?

Here in Denmark, as long as it is an intra-EU package, there will be no further expenses. Order from the US or Asia on the other hand, and customs are going to bill you like you wouldn't believe it.

lanrak
12-07-2013, 19:36
The only way GW plc can survive as a web-store with indie gamer support would be if they focus on GAME PLAY, to improve value for money and natural customer retention and customer base growth.

Like all successful games companies do.

But GW plc is just in the 'buisness of selling toy soldiers to children '.So no, they have painted themselves into the corner of selling as much stuff to the most un demanding customers they can attract , for the maximum returns.

Inquisitor Engel
12-07-2013, 20:38
But GW plc is just in the 'buisness of selling toy soldiers to children '.So no, they have painted themselves into the corner of selling as much stuff to the most un demanding customers they can attract , for the maximum returns.

This isn't strictly true. GW's kits have MARKEDLY improved in size, quality and design in the past 10 years. People do conversions and kitbashes they couldn't even have imagined years ago. The problem is that they've also raised prices alongside this. Those of us with disposable income spend more as we get older to make up the difference of younger folks who can't get into it because of the price barrier, if anything, they're catering to the MORE demanding consumers.

Tastyfish
12-07-2013, 20:54
I'm curious to see how similar GW's audience is to the various FtP -style MMO audiences, whether veteran's really are the White whales or if they're still a relatively small proportion of GW' revenue compared to the new blood.
The DLC style stuff coming out the Black Library suggests to me that they're at least aware of the model and think that it could be applicable, even if it's not at present.

ihavetoomuchminis
12-07-2013, 22:19
Seeing as the GW management seems to think and perform.....

Yes. And they'll do wonders. They will grow and gain more customers and more money than ever. That's the sole reason why they haven't done it yet.

Joking aside....i don't really know. But other companies seem to be doing it and doing better than GW in terms of growing.

lanrak
17-07-2013, 21:53
Hi again.
Most customers demand better writing standards, proof reading, editing, etc, when purchasing publications.(No spelling mistakes copy paste errors in similar books that are generally HALF the cost of GW ones.)

Most gamers demand better game play , with far less complication in the rules. (EG rules written for game play not selling minatures to children.)
All GOOD game companies use the quality of the game play to entice and retain customer interest.

GW plc depends on its ('brainwashing') B&M chain, because GW CAN NOT COMPETE IN THE OPEN MARKET!

Most gamers and collectors want far better quality for the price they pay than GW offer.

GW plastic kits are decent quality, but are over priced in comparison to similar kits from other manufacturers.

So GW is left with people happy with 'poor to average quality' product and paying 'premium prices'.
(EG less demanding than those who like better quality at lower prices.)



If you are happy with the product that GW provide at the price they charge fair enough.But you will be in an ever shrinking minority.

Naley
18-07-2013, 15:17
Huh?

Here in Denmark, as long as it is an intra-EU package, there will be no further expenses. Order from the US or Asia on the other hand, and customs are going to bill you like you wouldn't believe it.

Most times it get sorted out, but its not 100 % sure they will remove it. GW only answers "we have a hobby shop in Norway order trough this...", but not everyone lives in Oslo wich is the only hobby centre in Norway. I do not need a hobby centre, but GW should make all their range available for independent retailers so everybody can buy what they need wherever they live.

6mmhero
19-07-2013, 11:25
GW plc depends on its ('brainwashing') B&M chain, because GW CAN NOT COMPETE IN THE OPEN MARKET!

I disagree with this as the internet retailers seem to shift a fair bit of GW stock which shows that they can compete alongside other games and figure ranges.

Also remember that overpriced is very subjective.

I would also suggest that their product is above average. For your it is not as you make abundantly clear when ever you get the chance (yet you still keep coming back to mention how much you don't like the product GW produce which really seems like you have a bee in your bonnet).

Attending a number of clubs in my area gives me an interesting insight in to what people lay and what they want. We all get distracted by other games and yet we come back to 40K and WFB. While the rules may not have what you want from them people at the clubs I attend all find them fun and can enjoy a game after work and chill out (99% of the gamers are over 18 with 50% in their late 20s/30s). So it is not just kids that are happy with GW products.
Would I like GW products cheaper, of course I would. It just means that I am more selective about what I purchase.

I play a lot of game systems and periods and for the most part no rule set is water tight and a lot of them can be exploited. It is down to the players at the end of the day.
I played a game of FOW and thought the rules were good but as a WW2 game it was garbage but it is horses for courses.

If GW were to go back down the route of Outriders then it would need to be managed well and have enthusiastic members who can actually use social skills. I remember seeing Armies of Arcana at a games show and the people running the game were so boring and they made the game seem so tedious.

shelfunit.
19-07-2013, 12:24
I disagree with this as the internet retailers seem to shift a fair bit of GW stock which shows that they can compete alongside other games and figure ranges.

These are often people who otherwise would have given up completely on GW. The likelyhood is that whilst on the internet retailer site they become exposed to other games and drift into them.


Also remember that overpriced is very subjective.

Only by the very narrowest of definitions. Someone buying Perry miniatures plastics for historicals will be paying roughly 18 for 40 models. They will get no less enjoyment from painting and playing than someone else paying 15 for 10 models from GW. There is no objective difference in quality between the two (both are sculpted by the Perrys). From an ideologically neutral, or a complete outside view point looking in, the GW purchase is clearly the overpriced option of the two.


I would also suggest that their product is above average.

Now this is certainly subjective.

6mmhero
20-07-2013, 10:51
These are often people who otherwise would have given up completely on GW. The likelyhood is that whilst on the internet retailer site they become exposed to other games and drift into them.


Only by the very narrowest of definitions. Someone buying Perry miniatures plastics for historicals will be paying roughly 18 for 40 models. They will get no less enjoyment from painting and playing than someone else paying 15 for 10 models from GW. There is no objective difference in quality between the two (both are sculpted by the Perrys). From an ideologically neutral, or a complete outside view point looking in, the GW purchase is clearly the overpriced option of the two.

Now this is certainly subjective.

Like I have said, time and again people pick up other systems but in my experience people come back to GW games as they get more enjoyment from them. Dystopian Wars took off in a big way around here. Now it is very hard to get a games although people own forces for it a lot of people got bored of it. Same for a number of other games. Infinity another interesting one as people will by a force over a month or two and then go back to adding stuff to their GW forces.

Regarding the pricing I can say 100% that I have got more enjoyment from my GW set than Perry sets. I have barley touched my ACW figures that I got when they were released and certainly not used them in anygames. I also only used my WOTR figures in one or two games. So yes I got more enjoyment out of my GW ones.
I thought about using them in my Empire army but the scale is just a little off for my collection I already have,so there would be no value in using Perry plastics over GW for me.
Also Perry's are competing in the historical market which is notoriously tight fisted when it comes to buying figures and there are plenty of companies who offer the same product in either plastic or metal or even a different scale. I think GW could be more competitively priced but then who are they competing with to produce Space Marines?
I think the core sets still a re good value but they are the one product that should be cheaper in my eyes as it needs to be a gateway product not a fortress wall.
From an outside neutral view sure the GW one would look more expensive but then you are not looking at the same figures are you? It is not like you are comparing a box of PSC Panther tanks to a box of Battlefront Panthers which are the same scale and the same tank?

Yes it is subjective about it being above average but I stick to that point. I buy a lot of models each year from a lot of different manufacturers and so I see a lot of different sculpts and casting quality (FC being a case where the ball has been dropped). Rulebooks also vary massively in their quality and cost. GW is still ahead of the curve when it comes to their product. There will be certain products that fall below but others that blow the competition out of the water.
Again yes it is subjective but then this is my experience of being a wargamer who has far too many interests than is healthy for the wallet.

lanrak
20-07-2013, 13:02
@6mmhero.
From you post it sounds like most of the people you refer to , originaly started with GW games and have already been 'brainwashed' by GW.(;)lol.)

I agree most people have a soft spot for their first game system.GW has 30 years of fluff to inspire people with.And for some this makes up for the lack of decent rules/game play and 'premium prices.'
I like the background and asthetic of 40k and WHFB. But the rule sets are comparatively awful.(Thank god For AoA and KoW for the fantasy gamers!)

At my games club, we have regular games of Blood Bowl , Epic Armageddon, and other GW SGs.
But GW core games have been completely abandoned.

But we are more about actually playing games rather than other aspects of the TTWG hobby.

My main point is with more focus on game play , you arrive at wider range of CONSTANT PRODUCT PROMOTION with less overall cost, than GW plc current focus on selling toy soldiers to children.

So for GW to be able to GROW its market share, and sustain its buisness with JUST Internet and outrider programs.It HAS to improve game play and rules quality.

6mmhero
21-07-2013, 10:25
Heaven forbid someone likes GW games they must be brainwashed lol, it was actually a game of Space Marine with a huge Squat army (two or three land trains) and great terrain that brainwashed a young and impressionable me at a wargames show back in 95 ;-).
I actually really like the game play of both latest editions and they provide a lot of fun and what I am looking for in a game. I play a lot of different rulesets for a lot of different periods as well as Sci Fi and Fantasy and the game play you get from 40K and WFB is good. I have yet to try KoW due to all the people in my local area getting bored with it and AoA has put me off whenever i have gone to look at it at wargame shows. I will say the ruleset that has impressed me the most in the last year is Battlegroup Overlord. It is a fantastic ruleset for WW2.
I agree that SG are real gems for GW and Epic A is so well written for a ruleset that gets a lot of ideas into play. I would rather play epic than Apocalypse. shame about the ranges never fully getting rereleased (I came in at the tail end of Titan Legions so only ever had one tyranid troop box).

I think anyoutrider program the same as the Pressganger program will rely on people providing exciting games and having social skills to engage with people. Price is the big thing at the moment and I really think the starter sets should be competitively priced. I love the Figures in Dark Vengeance but it is on the pricey side for a starter set.

lanrak
25-07-2013, 17:58
I like GW games.Just not the WHFB and 40k rule sets.

I should have made it clearer, the game play of WHFB and 40k, is fine for the intended audience.
BUT the instructions to play the game are awful , in terms of needless over complication , and counter intuitive resolution.

If GW plc want to survive without the B&M chain, they need to get customers PLAYING the games ASAP.
And that means rules written with clarity, brevity and elegance.(EG like Epic and the other SGs.)

Most of the players I know started with HeroQuest, or Space Crusade.(Yes we are ancient , lol.)
Then moved to other GW SGs and board games, then onto 40k-WHFB.

Expecting newbs to make the massive investment in current WHFB-40k is a massive barrier IMO.

Smaller 'gateway games' would be far more effective.IMO.