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View Full Version : DKOK 6th Ed Siege List up



sheppe
10-07-2013, 12:36
Announced on Forge World's Facebook page


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf

A.T.
10-07-2013, 13:04
God damn it forgeworld.

MiyamatoMusashi
10-07-2013, 13:13
God damn it forgeworld.

Yeah. How dare they give out free rules updates! :confused:

A.T.
10-07-2013, 13:30
Yeah. How dare they give out free rules updates! :confused:They have copy/pasted the assault list from IA12, swapped the engineer and grenadier slots around, and then removed all of the new equipment and rules.

Basically they've scrapped everything unique about the siege list, hiked the price of just about everything, and excluded all of the rules that those price hikes were paying for.

This isn't an update, it's a farce.

MiyamatoMusashi
10-07-2013, 14:08
Ah, I see what you're saying.

I think (sadly) it's not perhaps a surprise, though. The massive recent nerf to the Hades Assault Drill may have been indicator of things to come.

brightblade
10-07-2013, 14:20
They have copy/pasted the assault list from IA12, swapped the engineer and grenadier slots around, and then removed all of the new equipment and rules.

Basically they've scrapped everything unique about the siege list, hiked the price of just about everything, and excluded all of the rules that those price hikes were paying for.

This isn't an update, it's a farce.

So ignore it. Use the older stuff. Hell, edit it the way you want with the aid of your gaming group.

I would still play you, in fact, I would applaud you.

It is your hobby. 😄

duffybear1988
10-07-2013, 14:25
I'm still waiting for the Eldar Corsair update - christ you would have thought they would have been able to put that out at the same time as the codex release (or at least within the month after).

Vaktathi
10-07-2013, 15:16
The practical murder of the Hades drill certainly was not helpful. It may have been a bit much before, but they really just annihilated any point to putting it on a table, even in a fun/fluffy army, it's just a very expensive DS enabler for an otherwise cheap infantry squad with limited abilities and options, with an increased risk over normal deep strike.

That said, the updates to Death Riders, the new army wide special rules (ignoring 25% morale tests is *huge*), having useable Grenadiers (that can finally take plasma guns), and the inclusion of air support of some sort and Hydra platforms helps make up for a lot, despite the issues with CCS's and platoons and Drills :p

A.T.
10-07-2013, 15:33
That said, the updates to Death Riders, the new army wide special rules (ignoring 25% morale tests is *huge*), having useable Grenadiers (that can finally take plasma guns), and the inclusion of air support of some sort and Hydra platforms helps make up for a lotPlay the assault brigade - they get those grenadiers as troops along with all the new units, rules, wargear, etc.
The only things they appear to lack are heavy weapons in the respawning infantry platoons and their light artillery batteries are heavy support.

I feel that ignoring the ld8/9 with reroll moral tests is a relatively poor exchange for the old stubborn rules - krieg blobs, if they ever get them back, will fold like a cheap suit in combat and have no hitting power now that the commisars, fists, and close combat weapons are gone.

Vaktathi
10-07-2013, 15:41
I do play the assault brigade, it's been awesome :D

Personally I like the ignoring 25% morale tests to be way more useful, blobs were never a thing I really used in my army, and the 6E metagame is much more shooty oriented anyway. The ignoring 25% morale tests makes the heavy weapon squads and artillery (generally your primary killers of enemy units, at least from what I've found) far more reliable and not running off on Ld7 :p

Homer S
10-07-2013, 16:00
They have copy/pasted the assault list from IA12, swapped the engineer and grenadier slots around, and then removed all of the new equipment and rules.

Basically they've scrapped everything unique about the siege list, hiked the price of just about everything, and excluded all of the rules that those price hikes were paying for.

This isn't an update, it's a farce.
Welcome to 6th edition. It's a clean sweep with the Vanilla bat.

Homer

A.T.
10-07-2013, 16:05
blobs were never a thing I really used in my armyWith artillery and most other FW units available to the cheaper and more versatile guard codex there wasn't all that much to them beyond the comparatively durable blob.

I'm just not feeling it with this one, it looks like a bad copy/paste job. Changes to the heart of the army - the infantry platoon - have all gone the wrong way.

eldargal
10-07-2013, 16:12
Write a polite, detailed report on the changes to FW and hopefully they will change things, at least in a future IA if not to the pdf.

Inquisitor Kallus
10-07-2013, 16:14
Write a polite, detailed report on the changes to FW and hopefully they will change things, at least in a future IA if not to the pdf.

Eldargirl is right, FW are pretty good at listening to customers concerns and altering rules if needs be.

Vaktathi
10-07-2013, 16:22
To be fair, the blob platoon wasn't in the actual original IA5 list either when the book was published in 2006, it didn't show up for 3 years until 2009 after the IG codex was updated, and the DKoK special rules just happened to really mesh with it.

A.T.
10-07-2013, 16:41
Eldargirl is right, FW are pretty good at listening to customers concerns and altering rules if needs be.Tried and failed, more than once.

Of course as a primarily sisters of battle player any suggestion that GW is good at listening to their customers has a sour note for me. I started collecting Krieg as an inducted force for them and literally weeks later GW kicked that to the curb. My reaction to the sheer lack of effort in this latest pdf is one of frustration built up from many other extremely lacklustre or poorly considered efforts from GW of late.

Disturbing_Clown
10-07-2013, 18:11
Weird that they would release this now that they've started releasing second editions of the IA books. I wonder what this bodes for the servants of decay list.

Vaktathi
10-07-2013, 18:13
FW mentioned something about the issue on their Facebook page. IA1 and IA3 had been out of print for a while and dated back several editions, IA5 is in print and the book already got updated and re-printed for 5E. No idea bout a servants of decay list as yet.

Singleton Mosby
12-07-2013, 07:02
The massive recent nerf to the Hades Assault Drill may have been indicator of things to come.

Can you please tell me a bit more about this nerf. I can't find much on it.

Vaktathi
12-07-2013, 07:26
Can you please tell me a bit more about this nerf. I can't find much on it.

Originally it had a larger, more powerful blast, automatically came in turn 2, and moved everything out of its way when it entered so it wouldn't mishap and the following engineer unit could move/shoot/assault as normal when they arrived. They nerfed the blasts size and strength, it arrives randomly, no longer moves things out of the way so can now mishap, now mishaps have a -2 on the roll (so 50% of the time it dies) and takes the follow up squad with it, and the engineers can't assault when they arrive anymore. Some of this was fine, nerfing the blast and having it arrive like normal reserves was entirely reasonable, but now it will mishap more often than not against the vehicles (even AV10 vehicles) and bastions it was intended to be used against and the -2 on the roll was just uncalled for.

Singleton Mosby
12-07-2013, 07:55
but now it will mishap more often than not against the vehicles (even AV10 vehicles) and bastions it was intended to be used against and the -2 on the roll was just uncalled for.

Thanks for the explanation. I had understood this rule in a different manner. I thought I would only suffer a mishap when a vehicle is touched by the template and there is no place for the Drill to be placed alongside it. As you say it suffers a mishap whenever it does not destroy the vehicle which is in underneath the template.

doubleT
13-07-2013, 10:43
The Subterranean Assault is something completely unique and was complex enough before. I think they were ill advised to change this and make it even more complex and confusing and became even more prone to controversy and discussion now. They also removed the part about the Hades specifically ignoring smaller terrain pieces as well as dangerous or difficult terrain, so they made this open for controversy, too (note that currently it has to be placed in "clear ground"). And as Vaktathi said, it's just uncalled for to at best have the enemy place your drill EVERYTIME it mishaps. Rule updates should make things easier!

Vaktathi, you forgot to mention some other points that I find rather important:
Taking the Hades changes the Engineers unit from a Troops to an Elite choice. Thus, if you field a Hades, you get to field less of the real Elite choices. And another thing:
Remind me again, why would we use the drill in the first place? Right, to challenge objectives in a remote corner of the battlefield. What sense does it make to send an Elite unit to challenge an objective - they cannot hold it! You could send another Troop unit without a drill together with the first unit, though ...

They could have castrated the drill with a bit more sensitivity.

---

While I like a lot of the new rules, for example the fact that Death Riders are platoons now and a lot of units got a nice price update, I think that most of the changes are not consequent enough. But the updated Siege Regiment Army List is a premature, ill-conceived hybrid of the former SR AL (just an adaption of the IG AL) and the Assault Brigade AL. If they'd been consequent, they'd given the SR AL all the nice new and unique Krieg-Characteristics, including the Warlord Traits and orders - maybe the changes to the advisors, too. They didn't pull this through till the end.

Appart from this - and the changes to the drill - what annoys me is that they:
- removed the combined squad rules*
- removed Commissars in infantry squads
- removed one Quartermaster Medicae-Servitor (while increasing the price) - on the upper hand, Vitae Mortis is a little bit better than the rules before. But not worth 25 pts more.
- removed the Accurate Bombardment (Heavy Mortar) - immobile artillery is more accurate than mobile, yet they tell us that the Griffin is more accurate. At least take it away from both.
- removed the Hull Weapon Mount of the Centaur.

* because of this - and the increased price - it doesn't make sense to use Heavy Weapon Squads as part of the Infantry Platoons anymore - unless you have no more free Heavy Support Slots. Then you're forced to eat the + 15 pts.

Maybe I'm just annoyed because I just bought a 2nd Hades and a 2nd and 4rd Centaur ...

CorinD
13-07-2013, 17:43
I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks and will be taking a siege list so I'll post how I did.

I am taking roughly: 3 thudds 3 rapiers 3 earthshakers 1 avenger fighter(chaff) 1 hydra platform(camo) 1 aegis line/quad 6 heavy weapon teams (troops 6 las) infantry platoon(melta/vox mainly) 4 infantry squads/hq 5ish engineers and a reg command squad with master of the fleet.

This will be set up as several static positions over objectives with artillery and heavy weapon teams. With most of my infantry plodding forward, which sounds risky, but I just use my artillery to kill everything that bothers them too much.
The avenger is just a distraction really. If i need too, I can kill flyers with TL snap shots as well, using hq orders.

I think the problem is people expect too much diversity from the Krieg when they are a traditional trench warfare army and the more you deviate from that the worse they get.

I also don't have a problem with using a hades as just a transport now, it allows you to send multiple units of troops(follow up squads) on from reserve in a position of your choosing. You DO NOT use it to take out vehicles, put it under troops(thus tan shocking,creating the necessary space) and support it with your artillery to prevent a surrounding of the deployment hole then pour out five man engineer squads with heavy flamer/flamer or whatever tickles your fancy. Please remember how much it costs in points and rein in your expectations. I would be using one but only have ten engineers and one hades which isn't enough.

If you want to play with tanks or mechanized infantry take an armoured battlegroup, if you want to play with flyers take elysians, if you want variety use the codex, but if you want a ton of huge guns and loads of guys that are there to die for the Emperor play the Krieg and if you want to move as well use the assault brigade.

doubleT
14-07-2013, 15:03
I thought about your key points there, and generally, I do agree.

But I think that a lot of people, maybe some at FW itself forgot about the trench warfare theme and especially the WW1 feel when they added the Hydra (I know, everyone cried that they wanted the Hydra - go play IG then!), the Rapier and the Imperial Navy elements. I found the Hellhound, Devil Dog and Bane Wolf ridiculous enough to begin with - don't get me started on the Chimeras in the Assault Brigade list. Then they remembered some aspects of WW1 trench warfare, made acid gas bombs standard for engineers and "fixed" the Death Riders. But in the same move they mangled the Infantry Squads (combined squads, lead by commissars, marching through nomansland) ... why??

They robbed the list of really unique and interesting trench/siege warfare themed units/possibilities and threw in some ordinary crap.

The Hades (mining, surprise attacks) is one of the key elements of the trench/siege theme and gives an overall rather static army one of only few possibilities to attack and to bring the fight to the enemy itself. And they castrated it. And the Centaur suffers from the same fate.

You said it yourself: You'd use it, but you only have ten engineers and one hades, which isn't enough. But prior to the update, this WAS enough to challenge an objective.
Now you have to abandon Grenadiers or artillery AND bring even more Engineers ...

Mechanicore
14-07-2013, 19:45
So what is the consensus on mixed artillery batteries of thudd and heavy mortars. In the description it says HM or Thudd. But this is inconsistent with the rest of the book. Where it talks about Russes it specifically says any mix of tanks you want. And for the flyers is specifically says all the same. So can I have 2 HM and 2 Thudd in one elite choice?

doubleT
15-07-2013, 22:07
Interesting point, from the look of the entry I'd agree with you.
"Field Artillery Battery" (and "55 pts each" sounds like the whole battery with 4 guns costs 55 pts ;) ) with "Heavy Quad Launchers or Heavy Mortars".

FashaTheDog
15-07-2013, 22:32
Also interesting to note that the Cyclops is now a 30 point Guardsman and nothing more as the Cyclops is unit type infantry, but as it has no Strength it is automatically removed as a casualty as per page 3. Not having a Leadership also means that even if you house rule it not to automatically die, the Cyclops is affected by powers that require a leaderships tests like Terrify or Dominate and is automatically destroyed by Psychic Shriek, Psychic Scream, and the like that wound against Ld instead, which make for a few more of 40K's ever growing list of :wtf: moments when "forging a narrative."

Mechanicore
21-07-2013, 00:14
Yeah I'm certain they meant per gun. I just want 2 quads and 2 heavies as one choice so I can have grenadiers and engineers with the hades. But I'm not sacrificing my artillery.

Taggerung
30-07-2013, 17:11
I was disappointing to see it come out as well. They seemed to go crazy with the nerf bat, and nerf things that didn't need it and then buff stuff that was always ancillary to the army (Grenadiers and Death Riders) so here are my pro's, con's and meh's

Maybe someone can tell me what happened with the CCS...I know the Captain got carapace (Good! he was wearing it anyways) and a refractor field (Goes against fluff......), but as far as I can tell they must have a company standard by default since you can't buy one, and it's included in the war gear for veterans, anyone else agree?


Pro:
Death Riders got awesome, my 10 man squad just got crazy buffed

Grenadiers also got better/cheaper, good move since they were over priced stormtroopers and worse than them to boot.

Addition of Navy Support is great.

Captain got carapace by default

New rule for their morale against shooting is very fluffy, I dig it.

The inclusion of acid gas bombs for Engineers + better upgrades for the Sgt/Squad is great!

Quartermasters going to a FNP bubble is better than before imo, also more options yay.

Vanquisher went down in points I believe, and with a co-axial heavy stubber it's useful as it was before.

Con:
Nerf to drill was a bit dramatic....IE makes it's main purpose of delivering engineers behind their lines is basically gone against other shooting armies.

Nerf to the regular infantry was just not needed. No commissars (LAME!), no power fists (LAME!!!!!!!) and the loss of combined squads also sucks (My group has already decided to ignore these changes.)

Nerfing the heavy mortar while leaving the thudd gun basically the same is just so backwards in terms of what needed to happen. Thudd gun was/is crazy good. It was a move that didn't make sense. We are upping the cost of thudd guns to 75 pts and Heavy mortars back to 50 without accurate.

The sheer amount of mistakes, typos, and just plain wrong entries. Who the hell proof read this?

MEH:

The change to the medusa was needed imo, it was sooo good before.

Hades drill damage nerf was fine imo, but the whole destroying the squad when done is silly, we are ignoring this rule.

Adding the hydra platform was interesting considering they don't make it anymore. Whatever, a thunderbolt will be my anti air option of choice


If you ignore a few of the very stupid rules, it's not terrible. I think it went down a peg in power level, so went from an average strength list to subpar and will get destroyed by most list sadly. I really liked blobbing heavy weapons teams with squads for protection.

A.T.
30-07-2013, 18:58
Whatever, a thunderbolt will be my anti air option of choiceNote that the thunderbolt hullpoints are not a typo - they are now 2HP (and the avenger is correct at 3).

Taggerung
30-07-2013, 22:31
What? That doesn't even make any sense. It's 3 HP in Aeronautica, why would they do that?

Thinking about it, I guess that's another house rule. Using the rules in Aeronautica.

Homer S
31-07-2013, 16:00
I wonder why the flip-flop on their HP between Aeronautica and DKoK Update.

Homer

A.T.
31-07-2013, 16:20
What? That doesn't even make any sense. It's 3 HP in Aeronautica, why would they do that?It was changed in Imperial armour 12 - the krieg pdf was just copy/pasted from that.

I sent it off with a bunch of other typos that they came back to me saying it was an intentional change. It did get 20pts cheaper, but it's still a mess.

Taggerung
31-07-2013, 22:26
Oh was it changed in IA 12? hmmm I guess it's not terrible if it's consistent.

Any other typo's that were intentional?

MiyamatoMusashi
31-07-2013, 22:56
Any other typo's that were intentional?

Hopefully that one.

</meta>

Taggerung
31-07-2013, 23:23
Hopefully that one.

</meta>


Thank you for such a useful and informative post.

A.T.
31-07-2013, 23:46
Any other typo's that were intentional?That was the only one they singled out. On their facebook page though they have stated that the hydra platform does not have interceptor, and that the lack of combined squads is intentional, as is the different cost between the troop and heavy support versions of the heavy weapon teams - though they may still be subject to future change.

I'm fairly sure that the inferno cannon won't get to keep its hellstorm template though :p

goof1972
06-08-2013, 20:20
According to rumours, there will be a 6th edition Imperial Guard codex coming...which means these updates will be obsolete again! :):)

Vaktathi
08-08-2013, 16:08
They updated the PDF again, put the "40k" stamp on it, fixed the Hellhound side armor, and a couple other things I'm sure I've missed.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf

A.T.
08-08-2013, 16:19
They updated the PDF again, put the "40k" stamp on it, fixed the Hellhound side armor, and a couple other things I'm sure I've missed.Unbelievable, I sent them a list of typos and the only reply back I got was that the avenger/thunderbolt hullpoint swap wasn't a typo but an intentional change.

And now they've gone and swapped the numbers around again.

edit: quick reply from forgeworld. They've changed their minds again and settled on 2 hullpoint avengers and 3 hullpoint thunderbolts. Answer pending on the thunderbolts cost after they reduced it along with the hullpoints.

edit2: a follow up email from forgeworld confirms that the thunderbolt is cheaper for krieg than IG by design - same aircraft, different points.

svinkelz
14-08-2013, 09:34
Just noticed something I didn't see before...

Seems I have the lastest pdf but :

Combat engineer squads become Elite choices when having an Hades breaching drill as a dedicated transport.

Am I the only one who's upset by that ?!

Taggerung
14-08-2013, 17:24
Just noticed something I didn't see before...

Seems I have the lastest pdf but :

Combat engineer squads become Elite choices when having an Hades breaching drill as a dedicated transport.

Am I the only one who's upset by that ?!

Just another rule I am straight up ignoring. I can't believe that soon I can only get 2 DKOK guardsmen for every space marine....

svinkelz
15-08-2013, 08:03
I usually don't criticize much FW rules or army lists but this time, this update ruined my dkok army.

I can't play them anymore if I want to follow the rules

The worst part of this rule is making Elite choices harder to make .

In the same time, some fast attack entries seems useless .

My dkok siege army was made with the 5th ed. rules.

I had 4 thudd guns, 4 heavy mortars and 10 grenadiers as elite and 2 engineer squads with HBD as troops. Now I have 5 elites ....

I guess we will all have to wait until 6th ed. codex ...

Taggerung
15-08-2013, 20:41
I usually don't criticize much FW rules or army lists but this time, this update ruined my dkok army.

I can't play them anymore if I want to follow the rules

The worst part of this rule is making Elite choices harder to make .

In the same time, some fast attack entries seems useless .

My dkok siege army was made with the 5th ed. rules.

I had 4 thudd guns, 4 heavy mortars and 10 grenadiers as elite and 2 engineer squads with HBD as troops. Now I have 5 elites ....

I guess we will all have to wait until 6th ed. codex ...

It doesn't affect me too much considering I have 110 regular guardsmen for my troops, and only had 1 HBD (Though I do have 20 engineers), but it's just an annoying rule to curb the spam of the HBD brought on by regular IG vets, not engineers.

Taggerung
19-08-2013, 19:18
Anyone else just notice that Engineers have BS 4 now??

Vaktathi
19-08-2013, 20:53
Yup, and they're cheaper. Just don't have much of a use/purpose with only 1 special weapon, no more I10 in assaults, and the drill being nerfed into oblivion :p

Taggerung
19-08-2013, 22:27
Yup, and they're cheaper. Just don't have much of a use/purpose with only 1 special weapon, no more I10 in assaults, and the drill being nerfed into oblivion :p

True! I however made the drill usable. It no longer mishaps, and the unit is not auto destroyed if they cannot be deployed (They just go into regular reserve). It's cool they can take a special weapon now though.

GiToRaZor
20-08-2013, 16:26
I find them useful with a Demo Charge. Give them a centaur and the squad is dirt cheap, hide it behind a ruin or in reserve and try a turn 4-5 objective grab or try to ruin the day of a MEQ unit that got too close. It's nice to have at least one option for mobility, even if it isn't that reliable.

svinkelz
21-08-2013, 08:48
I find them useful with a Demo Charge. Give them a centaur and the squad is dirt cheap, hide it behind a ruin or in reserve and try a turn 4-5 objective grab or try to ruin the day of a MEQ unit that got too close. It's nice to have at least one option for mobility, even if it isn't that reliable.

A 5 men squad with demo charge and centaur still cost 110pts. As you said, it's cheap and can make a surprise objective grab but I find it very risky !

It's very simple to counter even with S5 weapons and a 5 men squad on foot won't go very far on the battlefield . Not to mention that it is really not fluffy..

The only way to play on objective mission is to aim for a draw since you can't make big stubborn infantry blobs and HBD engineers are elite ...

Singleton Mosby
22-08-2013, 19:11
I'm fairly sure that the inferno cannon won't get to keep its hellstorm template though :p

Does it at the moment?

A.T.
22-08-2013, 19:29
Does it at the moment?They've fixed it now.