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Lamont Cranston
12-07-2013, 02:05
Hey,

So I'm starting an Iron Warriors CSM army and have never played Chaos before. I was wondering if the CSM battleforce is a good deal or not? I mean are CSM bikes or possessed good because I hardly ever see people take them.

NurglesRot
12-07-2013, 02:59
Bikes are hailed as one of the best choices in the codex because of how cheap they are. Add in Mark of Nurgle and they become T6 and very hard to bring down and can be customised to suit your army list. I've never used them but the internet loves them.

Possessed are the exact opposite. Ask anyone on Warseer and they will tell you to avoid this unit. I still believe they can have their uses and they can pump out a crazy number of S5 attacks - if they get there.

Do you have a list in mind that you want to put together? Pure Iron Warriors so lots of vindicators, predators and daemon engines? You'll always get use out of the Chaos Marine unit and the Rhino, and bikes have their uses so it's not a bad deal from that perspective

Fizzy
12-07-2013, 03:01
Bikes are super. 6 at least with MoN. Really effective.

The possesed not so much.

To be honest I think you are better off buying kits seperately. Especially now when they released 3 bikes bundle that save you a little money.

KhornateLord
12-07-2013, 03:56
You don't even need a MoN. TBH, I run bikes with a MoS - Banner of FNP, toughness 5, and they strike at init 5.
By themselves, without a mark, they are worth it for 22pts per model, T5, relentless and up to two plasmaguns. Plus they are better than assault marines (because hammer isn't dependent on them not moving 12" in the move phase) in combat.

Possessed are rubbish. You don't get to pick their random ability, and it changes every turn, which means you absolutely can't rely on them to have the right abilities at the right time.

Don't buy the battleset, you don't save much (any??) money on it, and you get a rhino and possessed.
Buy some chaos marine boxes, get some iron armour parts or iron warriors third party stuff (shoulder pads etc) and start from there.
What do you want in your list?

Excessus
12-07-2013, 09:09
Mathematically, bikers with a MoS and FnP are more durable than with MoN except for one level of strength weapons...though I can't for my life remember what that strength level was...

tneva82
12-07-2013, 09:18
Mathematically, bikers with a MoS and FnP are more durable than with MoN except for one level of strength weapons...though I can't for my life remember what that strength level was...


Against S10: Identical
S9: Slaanesh wins
S8: Slaanesh wins
S7: T6 starts to effect, 0.55 wounds vs slaanesh vs 0.66 vs nurgle so slaanesh win
S6: 0.44 vs 0.5, slaanesh wins
S5: 0.333 vs 0.333, tie
S4: 0,22199778 vs 0.16. Nurgle wins.
S3 slaanesh wins again as both need 6+ to wound
S2: unless I'm totally off you can't even hurt T6 anymore so this and S1 is clearly nurgle win(but pretty rare case)

So the nurgle wins vs S4 which is pretty significant as S4 is pretty common strenght.

M@L@L
12-07-2013, 11:41
I'd personally avoid THOSE possessed for Iron Warriors period. One bit of fluff I have always remembered from the 3.5 dex is how the IW possessed use bound daemonic energies to power an array of cybernetic enhancements. Once the Iron Hands boxed set came out, I was all over it. So many bionic bits... I have been looking at moving away from IWs for my 6th Ed army, but then I look around at some of the half constructed possessed cyborgs I have lying around and think "What if..?"

Course, this is more a flavour thing than a competitive thing. No one ever says anything good about the Possessed, so me even including them is more for aesthetics than actual game value. But if there's one thing I can say appeals to me about the IW, it's aesthetics. And that they are actually one of the legions best represented by the 6th Ed list.

I'll have to go to the "advanced tactica" some time to ask how folks use possessed, if at all. >.>

Excessus
12-07-2013, 12:30
I'm pretty sure you could use the regular tactica to ask that question as well...

M@L@L
12-07-2013, 13:55
I'm pretty sure you could use the regular tactica to ask that question as well...

Yeah, but we always get the same answers when such questions are posted there. ;p

Ssilmath
12-07-2013, 14:02
<Raises hand>

Not everybody hates Possessed, I use them most games. I just stay away from the tactica forums, because expressing the way I utilize the less popular units is greeted with scorn, derision and mockery. Hell, I expect to receive some of the same in this thread just for piping up.

M@L@L
12-07-2013, 14:07
<Raises hand>

Not everybody hates Possessed, I use them most games. I just stay away from the tactica forums, because expressing the way I utilize the less popular units is greeted with scorn, derision and mockery. Hell, I expect to receive some of the same in this thread just for piping up.

Dude, you suck. I think you should just scrap them and use some Noise Marines, or Plague Marines instead. Not a fan of Nurgle or Slaanesh? So what? Just say the marks and special rules they have represent something else. In fact, I dare say you should use Plague Marines instead of possessed. I mean, FnP is better than Daemonic Inv, because you get it AND their armour save.

Irony aside, what rule do you generally use them for? How do you kit them out (i.e., do you bother with that second gift of mutation?) and do you footslog them to take some advantage of their fleet, or cram them in a tin can?

Ssilmath
12-07-2013, 14:20
Irony aside, what rule do you generally use them for? How do you kit them out (i.e., do you bother with that second gift of mutation?) and do you footslog them to take some advantage of their fleet, or cram them in a tin can?

Mark of Tzeentch, both gifts of Mutation and in a big pack of ten footslogging forward. Mark of Tzeentch is more to do with theme than efficiency, but it's still quite useful. Keep in mind that we play with plenty of LOS blocking terrain which cuts down considerably on casualties unless my opponent is moving to focus fire. These tactics won't work on planet bowling ball, though if you are taking Land Raiders/Rhinos you can always run the Possessed behind the rolling terrain. The random abilities work fine against most opponents, the only bad option would be to roll AP 3 against hordes or Terminators. I've also done things like stuck a Sorcerer or Warpsmith in with them to provide precharge firepower or to open up vehicles to get at the goodies inside. They're also great at tying up and dragging down Monstrous Creatures and can melee most tanks down quickly.

On the reverse side, they die just as easy as other MEQ's to small arms fire, and so you have to take steps to prevent them from taking hits. They're far too expensive to lose 3 or 4 a turn to Bolter/Las/Pulse fire, and I understand that most people are going to be turned away by that. They work best in a list that can put out its own firepower and knock out the anti infantry or in a meta that values LOS blocking terrain.

M@L@L
12-07-2013, 14:25
Mark of Tzeentch, both gifts of Mutation and in a big pack of ten footslogging forward. Mark of Tzeentch is more to do with theme than efficiency, but it's still quite useful. Keep in mind that we play with plenty of LOS blocking terrain which cuts down considerably on casualties unless my opponent is moving to focus fire. These tactics won't work on planet bowling ball, though if you are taking Land Raiders/Rhinos you can always run the Possessed behind the rolling terrain. The random abilities work fine against most opponents, the only bad option would be to roll AP 3 against hordes or Terminators. I've also done things like stuck a Sorcerer or Warpsmith in with them to provide precharge firepower or to open up vehicles to get at the goodies inside. They're also great at tying up and dragging down Monstrous Creatures and can melee most tanks down quickly.

On the reverse side, they die just as easy as other MEQ's to small arms fire, and so you have to take steps to prevent them from taking hits. They're far too expensive to lose 3 or 4 a turn to Bolter/Las/Pulse fire, and I understand that most people are going to be turned away by that. They work best in a list that can put out its own firepower and knock out the anti infantry or in a meta that values LOS blocking terrain.

Cool, interesting answers. Never did think of running an IC with them, though might actually be an idea. I plan on including about 3 Warsmiths in my IW army when it's reached it's peak (3 FoC), so I can certainly afford to spare one. And since I am more likely to shove them into a vehicle, means I'll be looking at a 9ish unit size to make room for the WS. Suppose the choice will come down to which transport to use. I might be able to fit a LR in my army when all is said and done, as long as I stick to 3 Defilers, 3 Vindies and 2 unis of Oblits.

Larzarus
12-07-2013, 14:26
I bought the CSM boxed set before I decided to eventually use them as an IW army. Though i've never fielded possessed (my elite slots are already full) I used all the possessed parts to tweek the basic marines to look more daemon-y. I would suggest getting it because any sort of discount is worth while, you could always sell the possessed as using the deamon parts is fun to convert.

inq.serge
12-07-2013, 14:53
I bought a couple, and they're great. Economically, You're getting the box off possessed for free.

Sure, The possessed are crap, but I convert them with CSM bitz + Noise marine bitz into CC-oriented Noise marines, 'cause at least the possessed kit are full of fun bitz.

Excessus
12-07-2013, 15:43
Well, if you want to play competetively, possessed wouldn't do much really (mostly due to lack of ranged options or options at all, grenades and transport option). But if you don't, sure, use them!

Possessed are decent assault units in many situations (but overly priced), and a bit more durable against power weapons than general CSM. You have to plan ahead though, because you don't want to assault anything in cover due to the lack of grenades...though if you are having some daemons, you could have a skull cannon to support them...


...besides, if you don't post in the generic tactica thread, you don't know how we'll respond. You seem to think we are all douchbags and elitist...but somehow I still managed to post a fun, non-competitive Thousand Sons list in there...

M@L@L
12-07-2013, 16:15
Well, if you want to play competetively, possessed wouldn't do much really (mostly due to lack of ranged options or options at all, grenades and transport option). But if you don't, sure, use them!

Possessed are decent assault units in many situations (but overly priced), and a bit more durable against power weapons than general CSM. You have to plan ahead though, because you don't want to assault anything in cover due to the lack of grenades...though if you are having some daemons, you could have a skull cannon to support them...


...besides, if you don't post in the generic tactica thread, you don't know how we'll respond. You seem to think we are all douchbags and elitist...but somehow I still managed to post a fun, non-competitive Thousand Sons list in there...

True, perhaps a somewhat unfounded comment. My apologies, and I didn't mean to include you in that, if that seemed like the implication. Hell, you're an AL player, so I would hardly call you a netlister. :P

KingDeath
12-07-2013, 18:28
From a competative point of view, bikers can be rather good. When it comes to the question if the battleforce or any of the included miniatures are worth their money i would say no.
Dark Vengeance made this highly visible, the current chaos line is, with some exceptions, quite outdated and ugly. If you want good looking Iron Warriors then Horus Heresy MKIII armour would look much better.