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Griffite
12-07-2013, 05:05
Is it possible to change the position of a character when already inside the unit? If so, can you simply reform the unit and place him in a different spot or does he have to move that number of inches and then the unit subtracts that from their entire move?

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2013, 06:22
I don't think there is any particular rule to allow characters to move within a unit. I know some allow it with a reform. I think that is iffy so I don't do it myself.

Mr_Rose
12-07-2013, 09:17
Yes, and you don't even need to reform:
Q: Can characters change position inside a unit as part of a normal move?(p97)
A: Yes, as long as they end up in the rank closest to the front of the unit that has a space in. It is also worth remembering that even if only the character moves the whole unit will count as moving that turn. Having a belligerent officer barge his way through the unit is not conducive to a good round of shooting!

gewaltatron
12-07-2013, 09:23
are you kidding me?! I was litterally about to start exactly the same thread. Really, I just logged on and the first thread is the one I wanted to post! LOVE IT !!

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2013, 11:10
Ah, that's good to know, Mr Rose, thanks a lot for finding that.

Griffite
13-07-2013, 00:49
Agreed, very helpful. Thank you sir!

teafloy_the_damned
13-07-2013, 11:46
In that case, does the character moving in the unit reduce the units move that turn?

Basically if a character in a horde moved from the left hand corner to the right, can the unit then move?
Indeed, can a character march within his own unit to reach the other side?

Also why did the chicken cross the unit?

yeknoMehT
13-07-2013, 16:54
No, it seems it's a 'free' move, although the unit counts as moving regardless of whether anything else in the unit moves, which seems to be the only penalty.

There's no apparent restriction on how far the character within the unit can move (so even if your movement is reduced, you can still have the character move as far as you like, provided it's within the criteria aboev

gewaltatron
15-07-2013, 08:39
And how about the position of the command group or parts thereof ?

ElBeaver
15-07-2013, 08:53
It's basically a reform hence count as having moved. Therefore the character cannot move within the unit more than twice his M. Just as the normal rules for reforming.

yeknoMehT
15-07-2013, 09:04
It's basically a reform hence count as having moved. Therefore the character cannot move within the unit more than twice his M. Just as the normal rules for reforming.

Note the wording of the FAQ above - it refers to moving a character during a 'normal move', which is not a reform. When carrying out a reform, then the double movement maximum distance rule applies, otherwise it's just making up rules (which is fine, but you and your opponent need to know that you're doing it!). The point here is that you can do it when you're not reforming.

As far as changing the position of the command group is concerned, none of them are characters, so do not come under the scope of the above FAQ. No other rule allows them to shift (except probably a reform, but I'd have to check that one), so they can't move about during a normal reform.

ElBeaver
15-07-2013, 09:19
Note the wording of the FAQ above - it refers to moving a character during a 'normal move', which is not a reform. When carrying out a reform, then the double movement maximum distance rule applies, otherwise it's just making up rules (which is fine, but you and your opponent need to know that you're doing it!). The point here is that you can do it when you're not reforming.

As far as changing the position of the command group is concerned, none of them are characters, so do not come under the scope of the above FAQ. No other rule allows them to shift (except probably a reform, but I'd have to check that one), so they can't move about during a normal reform.

Didn't read the "part of a move" part :(

Lorcryst
17-07-2013, 20:29
Also note that it's "part of a normal move", so no moving Characters while Marching or Charging ... had that sprung on me when I wanted to reposition my Nurgle casting Herald after a March move ...

Caugth once, now I'm wise ...

It sometimes pays to "wait" a turn using normal movement to repositiong casters, or a Slaanesh Herald with Lash of Despair (Multiple Shot 2D6 with BS 6 was a nasty surprise for my Ogre-playing opponent that left his Slaugthemaster alone ...).

Wilhelm das Blutige
19-07-2013, 17:45
Also, bear in mind that when reforming your unit, the command group MUST be in the front rank (or as close to the front rank as they can get).

bigbiggles
20-07-2013, 15:48
But I don't think they have to be on the center like I want them to be right? Was that an earlier edition rule?

Lorcryst
20-07-2013, 17:40
As far as I know, in the front rank is good enough ... you could even have the banner in one corner, the musician in the other corner and the champion in the middle and it would still be legal ...

I cannot remember if it ever was a rule, but I tend to stick the banner in the middle of the unit, flanked on either side by champion+musician (the exact position of those depends on the sticking bits of the models), even going so far as to have "odd" ranks in my units (5, 7, 9, 11 ... yes my hordes are 11 wide) ... I like symetry :p

Wilhelm das Blutige
21-07-2013, 08:17
Quite right. How they are arranged in the front rank is entirely up to the owning player. Ordinarily, the order of placement priority is Champion-Standard Bearer-Musician-Characters-Rank and File troops, though in combat Make Ways and Challenges can alter this.

I had a game the other day where a unit of Black Knights led by a Vampire was charged in the flank by a small unit of about seven Night Runners. The Black Knights unit was down to five (Vampire, Command Group (3) and one ordinary Black Knight). The Vampire made way to the left flank and killed all but one of the Night Runners, who rolled snake eyes for their Break Test. I reformed from victory, but because there was a building in front of the knights (before the reform), I had two Black Knights in contact with the Night Runner, with the Vampire out of contact on the left side of the unit. The Black Knights fluffed their rolls and couldn't finish off the Night Runner.

In hindsight, I should have reformed into two ranks, with the command group in front (bringing the Hell Knight into contact), which would have given me seven attacks (three from the front knights, two from their horses, and two supporting attacks from the Vampire and the other Black Knight).

Lorcryst
21-07-2013, 09:09
Hmm, remember that when a Character is out of base-to-base contact because of the casualties, he can make another Make Way in the next round of close combat to get in base-to-base contact ...

At least, I think that's how it works :shifty:

Efrovius
24-07-2013, 16:48
I asked this in another thread but never got an answer. A Lizardman Old Blood in a Saurus horde (10x2) is in base contact with an Empire Steam Tank (who the Old Blood used Make Way! to get into contact with) when a unit of White Wolf Knights charges the Saurus right flank. Lizzie Old Blood wants to Make Way! to the Knights (since he can't kill the STank - Life Wizard in the area).

Can the Old Blood leave base contact with the STank using Make Way! to get into base contact with the Knights?

Can the Old Blood use a Challenge on the Knight unit to get out of base contact with the STank? I know he's legal to issue the Challenge while not in base contact. But can he leave the STank when he has been in CC with it for two turns already?

Please and thank you

Lorcryst
24-07-2013, 17:21
I think that once a model is in base contact with an enemy, it cannot make another Make Way! to leave said contact, even if it is to make contact with another model ...

I'll have to re-read the rules concerning Challenges tough, not sure on that one :p

Lorcryst
24-07-2013, 19:21
Okay, I took the time to check the Challenge rules in the Main Rule Book (page 102) :

In the "Fighting A Challenge" paragraph, it is stated that the Character accepting the Challenge should be moved, if at all possible, in base contact with the Challenger ... so in your example, the Old Blood would have to accept a Challenge from the Knights unit to be able to leave the base to base contact with the Steam Tank.

I'm afraid that if the Old Blood himself issues the Challenge, it's the Knight's Character/Champion that will have to move in base contact with the Old Blood, thus leaving said Old Blood facing the Steam Tank AND the Challenged model ...

Efrovius
24-07-2013, 19:28
The Old Blood issued the Challenge after going a few rounds with the STank and once the Knights arrived. We moved the Old Blood to meet the Knights but I am liking your take on it that the Challenged model would need to move so as not to take the Old Blood out of base contact with the STank

The problem is there are two rules involved (Make Way! and Challenge) but neither really address this issue. Make Way! addresses a character not in base contact with the enemy [pg 100 (lrb) "At the start of the combat (before Impact Hits are resolved) if a character’s unit is in combat but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact."] That right there is enough for me to say he can't Make Way!. Old Blood is in base contact already.

Challenges allow a challenger to move and get into base contact but don't address what happens if the challenger is already engaged in CC [pg 102 (lrb) "If a character accepts the Challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger – ..."] I can find nothing that says the character cannot move to another spot in the CC to fight the Challenge. Since nothing says "Can't do it." I believe that means you can. Correct?

Thanks for looking and weighing in Lorcryst

Lorcryst
24-07-2013, 20:10
Yes, I think a Character already in base to base contact can move somewhere else IF he accepts a Challenge, NOT if he issues said Challenge ... the rules are a bit cloudy, but for once the bit about which Character moves is clear : it's the challengeD one :p

Tae
25-07-2013, 11:26
But if the challengeD can't move to make b2b contact doesn't the challengeR then have to move too/instead?

In which case, in the above example if the Old Blood was in a unit which got STank'd on one flank the OB would make way to go and hit it. If the knights then charge the other flank if he challenges or is challenged he would move flanks to be in b2b with the knight he was fighting in the challenge

Lorcryst
25-07-2013, 12:20
But if the challengeD can't move to make b2b contact doesn't the challengeR then have to move too/instead?

In which case, in the above example if the Old Blood was in a unit which got STank'd on one flank the OB would make way to go and hit it. If the knights then charge the other flank if he challenges or is challenged he would move flanks to be in b2b with the knight he was fighting in the challenge

Strangely, the rules only say that you should move models "for the beauty of the thing" (paraphrasing mine), models don't actually have to be in base contact to fight a Challenge (unlike previous editions) ...

Efrovius
25-07-2013, 12:51
So I think that in the end, what we have come up with is:
Old Blood is not allowed to Make Way! to the Knights but is allowed to make a Challenge on them. Since said Old Blood is in base contact with STank, he can issue his Challenge and stay right where he is to fight it. The Knight Champion or Grand Templar (whoever accepts) would/could move to get into base contact with the Old Blood (and there was plenty of room to do so). If the Challenge was refused by the Knights, Old Blood players would tell the Templar to slink on back to the rear rank (since the Champion cannot leave the front rank) even if the Champion was the one who refused the Challenge. Summary correct?

Lorcryst
25-07-2013, 12:56
Yup, that correct as far as I can read the rules :p

Quite a bit of interaction in there ...

Efrovius
25-07-2013, 13:11
Indeed. Thanks Lorcryst

gewaltatron
29-07-2013, 10:05
just a small sidemark to your correct summary,

champions can never be send to the back rank, they can refuse challenges without being send back.