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him_15
18-07-2013, 03:45
LM is my first ever army to begin with Fantasy, as I am a big fan of Lizard and Dinosaur alike since childhood. Hence this army suits me perfectly. Unfortunately, I feel that LM has always been somewhat overlooked by GW. Compare to others 7th/8th edtition armies, we can see that LM units options are very limited, with serveal units undoubtedly overcosted which make them even hard to include. AH, and forget about special characters, they are totally unplayable.
I know this is the fluff and nature of certain army where options are reasonably fewer than, lets say skaven and O&G. But LM suffers a lot from this. I would be furious if the new book ends up with a couple of over-costed new unit (I must admit I envy a lot from O&G's Arachnarok spider, HF's Phoenix, VM's Coven Throne, etc.) I think LM this time deserves something really impactive to the Old world. Also, I am rather confused that a lot of people suggesting Slann is overpowered, oh come on, Slann is supposed to be the greatest wizard in the worlde, that surpasses even that of Elves! I would abandon LM if Slann is seriously nerf this time.
OK, Enough prolixity, let's see what we come up two weeks later...god bless LM.

Don Zeko
18-07-2013, 04:39
Slann need a nerf and they're going to get one. Beyond that, wait and see what the new book holds. Generally speaking, the 8th Edition books have been quite well balanced thus far, so i think you should be at least somewhat optimistic.

outbreak
18-07-2013, 04:57
slanns will be nerfed in what options they can take. Aren't they also lower gen slanns than the really powerful crazy ones? I'm not sure what they will add to LM, I thought they had a nice selection of models compared to other armies and they still seem to have the box ticked for pretty much all the new things armies are getting. Carnosaurs need a buff, stegadons are good big monsters, razordons and salamanders are good middle range monsters and count as warmachines, great core infantry, cheap ranked skinks, kroxigors also good monsterous option, good scouts and skirmishers, flyers, the book really has a big of everything so I wouldn't have thought they need to really add anything other than balance and boost some things. I imagine kroxigors will get plastics and be awesome rule wise?

Ramius4
18-07-2013, 05:02
Compare to others 7th/8th edtition armies, we can see that LM units options are very limited, with serveal units undoubtedly overcosted which make them even hard to include. AH, and forget about special characters, they are totally unplayable.

It's silly to be so critical of point costs in a book that was written for 7th edition. After all, in 7th the book was excellently balanced. 8th edition has a very different set of criteria for whether or not a unit is 'good'.

Many things in the LM book got better from 8th ed, particularly Slaan. Others got worse. That is fault of neither the army book, nor 8th itself. It's just the way it is.

samtyler
18-07-2013, 05:03
I wonder if perhaps we might see Cold One Riders changed to monstrous cavalry.

m1acca1551
18-07-2013, 06:17
Slann might well be the most powerful magicians in the old world... But there have been to many cases of poor representation in game resulting in a unit being broken or OP.

So slann should be nerfed, or have some of there abilities scaled back so they aren't able to take advantage of the current magic systems or whatever 9th brings without breaking it.

As for the rest, LM really don't need much, apart from some point drops they to make certain units more competitive both internally and externally, they are pretty much fine from a 8th edition perspective.

As for new stuff I think we can expect to see carnasaur monstrous cav and something big... Though I'm not sure LM really need more big gribblies.

Spiney Norman
18-07-2013, 06:51
I wonder if perhaps we might see Cold One Riders changed to monstrous cavalry.

Not without new models, the current ones are definitely cavalry sized, and remember this would also have an impact on Dark Elves who also use cold ones in their army (although they look a lot cooler)


It's silly to be so critical of point costs in a book that was written for 7th edition. After all, in 7th the book was excellently balanced. 8th edition has a very different set of criteria for whether or not a unit is 'good'.

Many things in the LM book got better from 8th ed, particularly Slaan. Others got worse. That is fault of neither the army book, nor 8th itself. It's just the way it is.

Not really, it IS true that Lizardmen have severely limited options, they typically have fewer units per slot than most other armies, and the units that are poorly costed in 8th are the ones that were bad in 7th as well (Saurus cav, Special Kroxigor, Razordons). All that 8th edition really did for LM was to give the already powerful Slann a collosal boost and make Stegadon actually worth their points.

If we see carnosaur (or similar) monstrous cavalry I will be ecstatic, but I'm aware that there are no real rumours to back up that unit, just a lot of wish listing and guesswork, and if High elves taught us anything its the GW don't necessarily develop the obvious new units.

SonofMagnus
18-07-2013, 08:12
I am right with Spiney norman on that one, the OBVIOUS choices don't always make for the ones that are done model wise, for logistical or other reasons... We have what? 1 confirmed and a bunch of random rumors? plastic kits here or there, possibly this, possibly that. all we know for "Sure" is some form of either Terranadon or a Apatasaur (based on face) of some kind and judging by the head of that model that was photographed.

We also have hastings rumor regarding a "Big" dino (although for the record I dont *think* he said "Land / Ground" Dino necessarily) given the fluff from the past, to me? Id bet money that its an Arcanadon (if we are assuming that these kits will have some sort of precedents in past fluff and releases) Indeed if this new "big" kit is NOT some form of Sauropod (Brontosaur / other long neck dino) I will be legitimately shocked, what better for a center piece then something BIGGER or AS BIG as the Ogre Mammoth? or as tall as the Mortis engine?

We also have speculation of "carnosaur cav" it would be a great option, many players would love it, and it makes perfect sense given that the fluff with Carnosaurs and their riders is that rarely are they born one at a time, but in full spawnings, or groups. Will GW take advantage of it? heres hoping! Lizardmen are near the top of the pile for "Want to buy MONSTROUS CAVALRY!!" On top of it being a cash cow for GW, all (well most) lizardmen players would want groups of what are effectively mini-Tyrannosaurs running around the field.

As well as conjecture of a 2 year old claim that Forgeworld was told they CANNOT release a Coatl figure. and if told not to, the obvious next step is that Games-workshops plastic wing is making a kit for it in place for a future release.

All interesting stuff, all fun to read about, and all fun to speculate on. but thats the problem as of this moment. its almost all speculation. with no real "valid" rumors other then what hastings dropped for us, "Big Dino" and "Terranadon kit" he confirmed as real.

En Sabbah Nur
18-07-2013, 08:34
I really hope the Saurus Warriors will get more weaponry options. I mean, come on, only I1 and I can't get GW ??

Seriously, LM are the less flexible army due to the lack of options of the units, and the poor number of useful units available. This is the thing to change for me, if any.
But otherwise, I do recognize that LM are one of the top armies in this game, so I am very curious about what they'll do in addition to the Slann-nerf, which seems mandatory for a lot of people ^^

him_15
18-07-2013, 08:38
Agree with Sono, I would be shocked if we don't get Baby-Carnosaur Cav this time as it's very much fluff wise (LM army book clearly states that Carnosaur egg is ususally stolen by skink hunter and carefully treated to be rode for battle) as well as Large monester kit Thunder-lizard (again from the army book even Stegadon would stays away from this beast) Pefect chance for GW to earn a lot of moeny from us LM players, so GW, be smart!

him_15
18-07-2013, 08:44
I really hope the Saurus Warriors will get more weaponry options. I mean, come on, only I1 and I can't get GW ??

Seriously, LM are the less flexible army due to the lack of options of the units, and the poor number of useful units available. This is the thing to change for me, if any.
But otherwise, I do recognize that LM are one of the top armies in this game, so I am very curious about what they'll do in addition to the Slann-nerf, which seems mandatory for a lot of people ^^
Saurus Warriors with GW? ecstatic but I don't think it will ever happen really. Two-Hand weapons is more likely if they are to give more options.

SonofMagnus
18-07-2013, 09:05
@ him_15, Im right there with ya brother! my lizardmen are fairly small by comparison (only around 2000 including Slann / EOTG), but the bigger beast and carny cav? THATS the variety we need. not more Saurians (though i wouldnt complain! ROCK solid troops! even with WS 3!!!) Razordons and Salamanders and Skinks and Kroxigors are all fine and dandy, but were waiting on GOOD cavalry (I hate the current cav we have, stupid mounts model and rules wise IMO) we DESERVE monsters, AND we deserve our big'un!

Wesser
18-07-2013, 09:10
I really hope the Saurus Warriors will get more weaponry options. I mean, come on, only I1 and I can't get GW ??

Seriously, LM are the less flexible army due to the lack of options of the units, and the poor number of useful units available. This is the thing to change for me, if any.
But otherwise, I do recognize that LM are one of the top armies in this game, so I am very curious about what they'll do in addition to the Slann-nerf, which seems mandatory for a lot of people ^^

Least Flexible? Spears, Sword'n board, halberds (on temple dudes)... and even if they might be a not-so-great choice there's greatweapons on the Kroxes.

As for unit options... Top skirmishers, solid infantry, monsters, mobile shooting, cavalry, fliers.... Try putting that argument to Bret, dwarf and VC players and see the answer you get...

Darnok
18-07-2013, 09:16
I really hope the Saurus Warriors will get more weaponry options. I mean, come on, only I1 and I can't get GW ??

This would need a complete recut of the existing warriors, plus added parts. That's extremely unlikely. Especially since LM could use some more differing unit types to what they already have, so with a limited release lineup it is even less likely a core unit gets redone.

m1acca1551
18-07-2013, 09:24
This would need a complete recut of the existing warriors, plus added parts. That's extremely unlikely. Especially since LM could use some more differing unit types to what they already have, so with a limited release lineup it is even less likely a core unit gets redone.

This and the fact that GW haven't done a core unit kit since 7th?? With Skaven and VC to my knowledge. LM core is fine as it stands and visually they are ok... There are far worse core units out there.

GW will focus on the gimme now buys, not "well my core looks ok, so no need to rush and replace them"

I'm actually quite looking forward to this release, I've only ever dabbled in LM so hopefully this gives me the excuse to jump in despite the price which I'm not looking forward too... Be gentle GW... Please??

Darnok
18-07-2013, 09:44
I got myself two battalions and a Steg last year (before both got more expensive), and it feels like a solid army already. I'm looking forward for adding some new toys to that, especially a "centrepiece model" everyone and their mother got lately. Oh, and please make my 15 Saurus Cavalry guys more useful. :D:yes:

Spiney Norman
18-07-2013, 09:49
As well as conjecture of a 2 year old claim that Forgeworld was told they CANNOT release a Coatl figure. and if told not to, the obvious next step is that Games-workshops plastic wing is making a kit for it in place for a future release.


A coatl would be interesting, just as long as they are fieldable alone and not just as a skink mount, I can see them doing a very good model for it, I've got in mind something similar to the trygon with wings, only more serpentine. On the other hand there hasn't been a coatl model since the late 80s, and there have been rumours of a coatl model for both 6th and 7th ed Lizardmen that have never come through, so I'm not holding my breath. The issue I have with the idea of a coatl is that they'd have to do something interesting with it to make it different to the elf Phoenix, and yet useful.


I really hope the Saurus Warriors will get more weaponry options. I mean, come on, only I1 and I can't get GW ??


Did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons that Saurus can't take GWs is precisely because they are I1, I mean what would be the point of hobbling a unit with I1 if they could take a great weapon, it would totally defeat the purpose of the inbuilt disadvantage.

I would be interested to see skinks and Kroxigor revert back to how they functioned in 6th rather than the clunky combined units we now have, two different units working together in the way they did was something pretty unique and fun to use. I would also like to see Saurus cavalry come down in price by about 5-8 pts to make them a competitive choice. Aww, who am I kidding, even if Saurus cav weren't the joke unit of the book I'm pretty us I'd still use my beloved stegs instead.

Rakariel
18-07-2013, 10:43
Just wait and see what they will do with the Lizards, most of the "old" (aka 7th ed.) books have less variation. I`m already imagining a few more cool dinosaur models, lets just hope they aren`t too goofy looking ;).

Whaagnomore
18-07-2013, 11:01
One thing I'd like, is for kroxigors to stop shrinking, it seems to me as time passes they just get smaller and smaller with less str every time.

King Arthur
18-07-2013, 11:15
One thing I'd like, is for kroxigors to stop shrinking, it seems to me as time passes they just get smaller and smaller with less str every time.
I know right they should be strength 5 as the scar vet is stronger than a kroxigor! as well as being the same strength as sauras and some puny elves! As a bret player 6 str 7 attacks which don't take hits until the skinks die is very nasty.

Spiney Norman
18-07-2013, 11:37
One thing I'd like, is for kroxigors to stop shrinking, it seems to me as time passes they just get smaller and smaller with less str every time.

Its quite amusing because right now Kroxigor models are the largest they've ever been, it was the great irony of 7th edition that they made new models that made the old 6th editon Kroxis look like the wimpy kid who gets his lunch money nicked, and promptly reduced their strength stat

The problem is that choosing between S4 and S5, you kind of come up against the question, do I make them the same strength as a Saurus, or the same strength as a Stegadon? The standard ogre strength is 4, so that would seem appropriate for Kroxigor, but on the other hand no-one has a problem with trolls being S5 (although they notably don't have access to great weapons).

Niezck
18-07-2013, 14:48
I was pretty excited about this release, but the more I think about it the more I think it's going to be a bit of a disappointment. So far we've yet to see a single 'logical' monstrous cav choice that people predicted, I can't see them doing carnosaur cav for us. Hell, I'm even unsure if we'll *get* carnosaur cav, given we have terradons and cold ones which, if repriced, could be quite good.

I reckon it'll be something along the lines of a 100x150 big monster, thunder lizard or arcanadon or coatl or something, new plastic terradons/maybe dual kit other flying beasties, new hero types or two and that's about it. Oh, and high magic cards, with the way the lore of high magic was redone I can't see them *not* giving Slanns the lore of high magic.

IcedCrow
18-07-2013, 17:40
Or...old one magic

Spiney Norman
18-07-2013, 22:05
Or...old one magic

That would be better, nicking another armies magic lore would just be stupid IMHO, High elves are a very different army, and dropping a magic lore designed to work with them on Lizardmen would be slap-dash and lazy even if people think it is "themed". I'm fine with Lizardmen not having their own unique lore because I don't think they need it, but giving the high magic would be weird and dull IMHO.

Personally I think Slann are just fine as a loremaster of one of the 8 battle magic lores, what I really would like is skink priests to get a little more choice in the lores they have access to. Oh, and I'd really like them not to screw up the engine of the gods if at all possible, I quite like the idea of a carnosaur Saurus lord supported by a skink engine priest as my character setup for the new edition, going for a bit of a monster truck theme ;)

howie
19-07-2013, 04:45
Skinks access to beasts. Just please let it be done. I can't wait for the new release, although I'm very pessimistic about this release.

All I'm hearing is nerfs to slaan and no carno cav, I just want to play with my vicious dinosaurs again, while stomping on Khorne Skullkrushers.

Regards,
Howie.

m1acca1551
19-07-2013, 04:56
I just can't see GW making cold one riders that much better, doesn't seem like a GW move, as they will want people to buy the new stuff not simply dust off the old stuff we already own and go "well these got better so I'm happy" as opposed to "carnasaur cav...sweet, I'll take 2 boxes please, just load them into the Ferrari"

howie
19-07-2013, 06:10
Only two boxes? You're not building the future army right, 4 boxes you meant surely? :P

I can see them being 2 in a box, the same as mournfang cavalry. They'll be of similar size I'd hope. If we get them as a rare choice hopefully scar vets will be able to mount them, need more carnosaurs in the future army. Lord, hero and rare choice. :D

Yeah, I'm high on Carnosaur love, haha.


Regards,
Howie.

Spiney Norman
19-07-2013, 06:22
I just can't see GW making cold one riders that much better, doesn't seem like a GW move, as they will want people to buy the new stuff not simply dust off the old stuff we already own and go "well these got better so I'm happy" as opposed to "carnasaur cav...sweet, I'll take 2 boxes please, just load them into the Ferrari"

I know what you mean, but Saurus cavalry have been the dross if the army book for the last two editions, and while I'm sure they wont make the totally overpowered I'd really like them to be worth their points cost this time around.


Only two boxes? You're not building the future army right, 4 boxes you meant surely? :P

I can see them being 2 in a box, the same as mournfang cavalry. They'll be of similar size I'd hope. If we get them as a rare choice hopefully scar vets will be able to mount them, need more carnosaurs in the future army. Lord, hero and rare choice. :D

Yeah, I'm high on Carnosaur love, haha.


Regards,
Howie.

Yeah it would be really awesome, I'm still quite skeptical of it actually happening though. If we do get some high-powered monstrous cavalry I would expect them to invent some new kind of vicious (slightly smaller) dinosaur, partly because the carnosaur profile would be unbelievably wrong if deployed in units of 4 (frenzied S7 w/ MW D3) and partly because downgrading the carnosaur from monster to Monstrous cavalry would leave a Saurus lord monstrous mount hole which they'd need another kit to fill.

Its probably worth mentioning that no 8th ed army I can think of that has gotten MC can have a hero/lord on the same mount.

Rudra34
19-07-2013, 06:28
Its probably worth mentioning that no 8th ed army I can think of that has gotten MC can have a hero/lord on the same mount.

Think harder! I agree that carnosaurs don't seem like the right choice for MC, but it will be interesting to see if there is a new dino. They should just mount saurus on top of kroxigors. :)

nosebiter
19-07-2013, 06:32
A giant flying dino perhaps?

howie
19-07-2013, 06:38
Alas, they may have to take a nerf bat to the Carnosaurs to make them rare, however I just want more of such a nice model. That can't be a bad thing.

I've been out of the game for a bit, but what are juggernauts? They're just monstrous cavalry, right? A hunter can ride a stone horn or a thundertusk can't they? I obviously understand that there aren't units of thundertusks and in no way does it set a precedence, but I can dream.


Regards,
Howie.

m1acca1551
19-07-2013, 06:47
I see GW slapping a second word to The Lord mount Carnosaur prime... Very GW and they will hope that this is enough to establish the difference between the MC and lord option...

Probably be along the lines of the MC mounts are spawned from spawning pools that have dulled the creatures natural ferocity as opposed to the wild births that lords use... Either way I don't give a crap.. Just give me mini t-Rex with dudes on them!!!!!

howie
19-07-2013, 07:02
And ain't that just the truth of it!

If GW don't release plastic Carnosaurs or min versions I'll be bitterly dissatisfied with the release unless something else unimaginably awesome is released.

Regards,
Howie.

Darnok
19-07-2013, 07:15
I think it would be a good idea for GW to keep the current Carnosaur as a lord mount. That way they can introduce a new unit type (something between CO and Carno), which is something that LM could use, and don't go against their previous line of "monstrous cav yes, it being hero/lord mount no".

Together with the "big" kit (which I consider a given, no matter what it turns out to be) and plastic Teradons that would make a good selection of three plastic kits. Give it a plastic char and some FC ones, and it looks like a solid release to me.

Nextweek by this time we all will know for sure anyway.

StarFyreXXX
19-07-2013, 10:55
The more i read this, the more i feel this will be a very disappointing release :(

when does GW put up the official preorder pics? is it 2 weeks prior ? (ie. possibly tomorrow?)

Regards,

Sanjay

Zeroth
19-07-2013, 11:01
If the OP is quitting LM coming a Slann nerf, you might as well put them up on Ebay. A huge bat is coming your way and it's got NERF written all over it. Other than that I think the book itself will be awesome, like all the other 8th ed books has been so far. Really looking forward to what new units/kits GW will produce for this ancient race. Some Monster dinosaur is bound to happen.

StarFyreXXX
19-07-2013, 11:07
if we get a large dinosaur, i just hope it's on that new larger base size and not the stegadon base. want something BIG.

What I'm hoping for model wise:

* plastic terradons/young couatl skink riders (the only way to salvage terradons being 1 of the release sets is to turn it into a dual kit IMHO - no plastic terradons are good since the metal ones are harder to stand up, etc BUT it's not the most interesting thing they could have done, so it's somewhat a waste)
* plastic carnosaur (single, but still usable as carnosaur cavalry)
* Plastic couatl/large flying saurus mount-- i imagine something like the huge creature in Avatar (Dual kit)
* Arcanadon/Thunder Lizard (doubt dual kit; just single model with different attachment options)
* new saurus cav (since the models are so horrible, it makes me want to beat the GW designers with a hockey stick)

Of course, i know we won't get 5 plastic sets...i'm hoping for 4, but expect 2-3

Sanjay

ewar
19-07-2013, 12:18
I don't understand why anyone would be negative about a release before seeing/knowing what is in it? Such unrelenting pessimism must be tiring.

I'm excited to see what is coming - LM have long been my favourite WFB army and with nearly 5k of painted minis on the shelf I can't wait to see how the release shapes up.

Spiney - why would are you so against High Magic for us? It has historically been part of the LM repertoire and given GWs propensity for throwbacks lately (and their unrelenting reluctance to write a lore of the Old Ones) I think it will be almost certainly included in the new book. On the topic of the lore of the Old Ones, I think part of the reason they haven't done it is there is not enough of a theme. Yes, geomancy plays a big part but how do you capture that feel without it being crazily OP or just Comet with a different name?

I'm hoping for:
- carnosaur cav that a saurus hero is able to join on the current carni. I love the model I've got but he never sees any action.
- Slann nerf, but without losing his flavour. The best thing to do would be to make more of the different options viable and increase his cost
- new big dino. I don't think LM players can generally have enough dinosaurs, so adding a proper apex predator would be incedible.
- make the razordon useable and the salamander less of a no brainer.
- Make kroxigor cheaper or higher strength.
- make the EOTG useable again and give skinks more options
- if there is a coatl released make it a good support unit (buffing/debuffing) rather than a combat unit.

Finally I'd like an excuse to use my skink chief on terradon, hopefully a nice ranged attack would make him work again.

StarFyreXXX
19-07-2013, 13:20
Well, geomancy has nothing to do with Comet.

Stuff like: Ruination, earth line, part water, (the mazdamundi spells in the 6e mazdamundi in the WD magazine)...also you could have a spell that moves a terrain feature...and a 24+ spell, the 6th one, that maybe adds a brand new terrain feature or removes one.

that is what i'd want (Plus a lore of the old ones, but fluffwise, i think geomancy should only be usable by the special chars..maz and kroak).

I actually don't care if they nerf some models, etc. I want the options that make sense. What i see, some armies get what they deserve, other's don't. Obviouly armies that sell (look @ space marines in 40K) will get more options each release, etc.

Let's see what we get this time around i guess. I still think 7e was lackluster. Not bad release, but nothing to be really impressed about.

Sanjay

Spiney Norman
19-07-2013, 13:22
Spiney - why would are you so against High Magic for us? It has historically been part of the LM repertoire and given GWs propensity for throwbacks lately (and their unrelenting reluctance to write a lore of the Old Ones) I think it will be almost certainly included in the new book. On the topic of the lore of the Old Ones, I think part of the reason they haven't done it is there is not enough of a theme. Yes, geomancy plays a big part but how do you capture that feel without it being crazily OP or just Comet with a different name?

I'm hoping for:
- carnosaur cav that a saurus hero is able to join on the current carni. I love the model I've got but he never sees any action.
- Slann nerf, but without losing his flavour. The best thing to do would be to make more of the different options viable and increase his cost
- new big dino. I don't think LM players can generally have enough dinosaurs, so adding a proper apex predator would be incedible.
- make the razordon useable and the salamander less of a no brainer.
- Make kroxigor cheaper or higher strength.
- make the EOTG useable again and give skinks more options
- if there is a coatl released make it a good support unit (buffing/debuffing) rather than a combat unit.

Finally I'd like an excuse to use my skink chief on terradon, hopefully a nice ranged attack would make him work again.

I'd be against high magic primarily on tactical grounds because High magic is designed to synergise for a majority T3 army with high initiative, ASF and a strong ranged shooting component. None of that sounds like Lizardmen to me. On the other hand life and Light synergise extremely well with LM, depending on whether you are majoring on infantry or multi wound monsters.

My biggest fear for the release is that they will over nerf the Slann and we'll be stuck without a usable L4 for the next 5-6 years.

StarFyreXXX
19-07-2013, 13:30
Spiney - not beasts as well?

Captain Collius
19-07-2013, 16:44
I see GW slapping a second word to The Lord mount Carnosaur prime... Very GW and they will hope that this is enough to establish the difference between the MC and lord option...

Probably be along the lines of the MC mounts are spawned from spawning pools that have dulled the creatures natural ferocity as opposed to the wild births that lords use... Either way I don't give a crap.. Just give me mini t-Rex with dudes on them!!!!!

Ancient Carnosaur.

However I would Like to put forward Baryonyx based monstrous cavalry basically a mid-sized therapod with Larger than a Raptor (cold one.) But smaller then a Carnosaur. or possibly Pachcephalsaurs based supre impact hit cav.

Also I would hope for.

Slanns-brought into line but still heads of the pack magically. Geomancy sounds awesome too bad it won't happen likely.
Skinks-useful chiefs, access to beasts and light on priests. EOTG allows priest to become lvl. 3.
Saurus vets. Just make Old-bllods legit options.
Core
Skinks-good maybe point adjusments here and there. I would like bs 4.
Saurus-they are good the only thing i could see is possibly a +1 WS with corresponding point increase.
Jungle swarms-they are still gonna suck.
Special
Temple guard-tweaks in their rules possible but no changes needed.
Cold one cav- 25 pts per model sounds about right
Kroxigors-50 pts and S5 job done.
Terradons-I have no clue.
Stegadon-S6 leave points the same 3+ armor save.
Chameleon skinks-include a box of tissues with the book.

Rare
Baryonyx cav 2+ ws 4 s5 t5 w3 yes they would be bad so make em expensive. NO IMPACT HITS.
Ancient Stegadon t7 same rules
Razordon-overhaul
Salamander-same

Spiney Norman
19-07-2013, 16:56
Spiney - not beasts as well?

I'd take beasts on a skink, as an alternative to heavens but not on a Slann, beasts is a good law, but it can't compete with life or light.

ewar
19-07-2013, 19:37
Well, geomancy has nothing to do with Comet.

Stuff like: Ruination, earth line, part water, (the mazdamundi spells in the 6e mazdamundi in the WD magazine)...also you could have a spell that moves a terrain feature...and a 24+ spell, the 6th one, that maybe adds a brand new terrain feature or removes one.

that is what i'd want (Plus a lore of the old ones, but fluffwise, i think geomancy should only be usable by the special chars..maz and kroak).

I actually don't care if they nerf some models, etc. I want the options that make sense. What i see, some armies get what they deserve, other's don't. Obviouly armies that sell (look @ space marines in 40K) will get more options each release, etc.

Let's see what we get this time around i guess. I still think 7e was lackluster. Not bad release, but nothing to be really impressed about.

Sanjay

I don't know how you could call the 7th ed book lack lustre - it added some great flexibility to Slann's, took away some pointless abilities in Saurus (only 1 or 2 spawnings were ever taken) and brought back mixed skink and krox units. All good things in my eyes.

As for Geomancy - I just don't see how it would add anything to the game - what interesting mechanics are there to explore? All of the examples I've seen are just mega power spells. Anything involving terrain movement/addition would be effectively unplayable (have you tried the SoM terrain spells?)

I think for it to be worthwhile it needs a range of augments, hexes and DD. I just don't see that in Geomancy which is why I'd guess they've never added it as a lore. For me High Magic would fit completely fine: movement spell, adding a ward, unmaking and the firestorm are all great spells and would definitely make for a new and interesting choice on the Slann.

Spiney - you can't tell me you wouldn't like the new version of Vauls unmaking?! Blender Vamp? poof, goodbye! I would choose this lore just for that spell it's so good. LM can go toe to toe with the best fighting armies out there, if the enemy doesn't have a bucket load of incredible items. Take them away and they're fodder for the cold blooded :)

As for the models, I have a gut feeling they won't do a giant t-rex+ as that is essentially the Dread Saurian from Arcanum.

howie
19-07-2013, 21:52
The spawnings added great flexibility to the army. Even if some where taken more often than others it meant that you could theme your lists. I know I'd like my sauras if they had a +1 to their armour saves. It was nice.

The white dwarf added some spice to the list with it's spawning, making you able to take the different lores, there is no real need for skinks to be funneled in to just taking heavens. If they could take other lores maybe people wouldn't always fall back to the slaan default lord setting.



Regards,
Howie.

Spiney Norman
19-07-2013, 21:58
The spawnings added great flexibility to the army. Even if some where taken more often than others it meant that you could theme your lists. I know I'd like my sauras if they had a +1 to their armour saves. It was nice.

The white dwarf added some spice to the list with it's spawning, making you able to take the different lores, there is no real need for skinks to be funneled in to just taking heavens. If they could take other lores maybe people wouldn't always fall back to the slaan default lord setting.



Regards,
Howie.

I think they would still go for the Slann, trying to play 8th with only L2s is a major struggle above 1500pts, if they add a skink priest elder or something that can take 4 levels I think we could see a lot more Slann-less armies, especially if there are good reasons to bring an old blood this time around.

I've had people claim that LM players use the Slann-crutch too much, but when the only alternative is L2 I can't see it working, heck if Tenehauin or tetto eko were L4 there would at least be a way to build a no-Slann army without giving your opponent a free-for-all in the magic phase.

StarFyreXXX
19-07-2013, 22:09
I personally think magic should do something more unique and interesting than just hte basic hex, magic missile, etc. Think reason i like the magic in RPGs better. just more interesting; granted; different style of game... but there has to be a way to make all lores just as interesting without them needing to have the same basic structure and still be fairly balanced.

Sorry, no, got bored of lizardmen a bit into 7e, and stopped warhammer. So never bothered wth storm of magic (and the models released for it, i thought, were terrible....the chimera, etc).

hoping that i find something interesting in this release :) my main army before was a carnosaur, no magic list or carnosaur with 1 engine list. would love to expand that with a couatl or carno cav :P :P
( but of course, will make a Slann list, for completeness sake)

Sanjay

Spiney Norman
20-07-2013, 09:33
I personally think magic should do something more unique and interesting than just hte basic hex, magic missile, etc. Think reason i like the magic in RPGs better. just more interesting; granted; different style of game... but there has to be a way to make all lores just as interesting without them needing to have the same basic structure and still be fairly balanced.

Sorry, no, got bored of lizardmen a bit into 7e, and stopped warhammer. So never bothered wth storm of magic (and the models released for it, i thought, were terrible....the chimera, etc).

hoping that i find something interesting in this release :) my main army before was a carnosaur, no magic list or carnosaur with 1 engine list. would love to expand that with a couatl or carno cav :P :P
( but of course, will make a Slann list, for completeness sake)

Sanjay

The problem is that in a RPG your objectives are usually a bit broader than wipe out the opposing army. I'm not sure spells that cause phantom noises several meters from your wizard or that can translate text in an unknown language are going to be much use in wfb. Besides the spells in wfb are not "all the same" just because they are called hexes or augments or direct damage. A direct damage spell can be anything from spontaneous combustion to being struck by lightning to being sucked into a pit of doom or swallowed up by a swirling magical vortex, similarly buffs can represent anything from imbuing weapons with magical power to make them more destructive to transfiguring yourself into a monster or conjuring a magic forcefield for protection, its just a case of using your imagination to concentrate more on the fluff-effect of the spell rather than the fact that it just dropped half a dozen warriors from the enemy unit or gave you a few more kills in that round of close combat.

Besides which the role of a wizard in a large scale battle is going to be very different to their role in a group of four guys sneaking around a city. If you've read the Eragon series, terrible as the writing is for the most part, they do provide an interesting perspective on e role of a battle wizard, which is primarily to protect a portion of the army from getting annihilated by enemy magic, whilst simultaneously taking advantage of any weakness in the enemy's magic defense. There is a moment, I think in Eldest, when there is a huge battle raging and one of the battle wizards goes down leaving a gap in the army's magical defence, and a whole section of troops is basically just wiped out by a spell because their protection is gone. War isn't really the place for parlour tricks and minor conjurations.

Tau_player001
20-07-2013, 11:12
Slann is supposed to be the greatest wizard in the worlde, that surpasses even that of Elves! I would abandon LM if Slann is seriously nerf this time.

Nop, Nagash is, Teclis comes close to him tho.

maze ironheart
20-07-2013, 11:42
Slann are ment to be strong casters they are in Fluff so naturally they are strong in the game a slann is a option not a must take unless winning is what your in this hobby for.I played a game where I lost my slann turn 2 and still tabled the army and it was a dark elves force the person had 1 level 4 and 2 level 2's.

Lord Cedric
20-07-2013, 11:59
Nop, Nagash is, Teclis comes close to him tho.

IIRC, the current living 3rd gen Slann are very powerful in magic but not as powerful as first or second gen. Nagash and Teclis are powerful in their own right and stronger in magic than current gen Slann but are not more powerful than second gen or same league as a first gen.

That is what has been interpreted to me but the power levels are a bit of a gray level especially considering we are discussing different eras. The first gen Slann, specifically Lord Kroak, would be the most powerful ever lived. .. but technically isn't living. His apprentice, Lord Mazdamundi (a 2nd gen) would be, imo, more powerful than Nagash or Teclis. 3rd gen and younger Slann following them.

As far as races go... none have been more powerful in magic at their peak than Lizardmen imo. It would be interesting to me if GW would add specific clarity to this. One could hope that the new LM army book could shine some light on this.

- Lord Cedric

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

Spiney Norman
20-07-2013, 13:17
IMHO Slann are more powerful than either Nagash or Teclis, they just spend most of their time asleep/meditating. We're talking about wizards that can raise mountain ranges and cause massive earth quakes half the world away just by thinking about it or can wipe out entire daemonic armies with a single spell.

I'm pretty sure that if the Slann all properly woke up and thought "right, lets whoop some ass" they'd be pretty unstoppable. I think the only potential contender might be an especially powerful Lord of change, perhaps Kairos since Tzeentch is essentially the boss of magic.

Nagash was extremely powerful, but that came more from knowledge than intrinsic power, he knew how the mechanics of magic worked and drew his power from artefacts like the black pyramid and warpstone or sacrificial victims rather than direct wind manipulation like the Slann or high elves. Reading the accounts of the great ritual he couldn't have done it without the Black pyramid or Alcadizzar and it almost killed him to pull it off (well, the Skaven made sure it in fact did kill him).

Teclis is extremely powerful for an elf, but he still an elf, Slann are as far above elves in terms to magical manipulation as elves are above humans, and great as Balthazar Gelt is in the fluff, he ain't no HE archmage.

It would be nice if the rules for Mazdamundi really represented him as a really powerful 2nd gen Slann, because in his current incarnation he is worse than a naked Slann in terms of casting (since a basic Slann can choose a discipline that is worth actually having). Really Lord maz should be the most powerful caster in the game.

StarFyreXXX
20-07-2013, 15:48
The fluff seems to imply Kroak>Nagash=Techlis>Mazdamundi>the rest

but kroak when he was alive....the spirit form all depends on how they design him :)

AFerall Nagash 'just' raised an army...Kroak raised continents, moved mountains, etc.

SS

Spiney Norman
20-07-2013, 16:14
The fluff seems to imply Kroak>Nagash=Techlis>Mazdamundi>the rest

but kroak when he was alive....the spirit form all depends on how they design him :)

AFerall Nagash 'just' raised an army...Kroak raised continents, moved mountains, etc.

SS

Nagash didn't just raise an 'army' he raised an entire nation of corpses, but as I said before he is more about artefacts and academia than natural magical gifting. In theory anyone who studied magical technique as long and rigorously as Nagash and had access to the same resources should be able to do the same things he has done.

And wasn't it Lord Maz that basically screwed overr the entire dwarf race by quaking their mountains and destroying multiple cities? If Teclis was that powerful why not do the same to Naggaroth? I'm pretty sure Lord Maz is noted for having created a mountain range in northern Lustria as well. At the end of the day Teclis is still a student of the Slann, the best his student race has to offer, but I don't think he can surpass the best of the masters.

I think the point of the Slann is that they are actually a lot more powerful than they allow themselves to be because of their hibernation thing.

StarFyreXXX
20-07-2013, 16:34
sorry yes, nation of corpses....still; i'd put raising continents, etc above super necromancy :) but ya, it could be moreritual magic, using items, etc and a combination of magic power.

damnit..i thought preorders for aug would be on the GW site today...nothing :(

SAnjay

howie
20-07-2013, 17:07
I too find the lack or pre orders disturbing. I was hoping to wake up and find an email of GW saying here's your lizards, where is your monies?! Got an email, just about 40k. :'(

Oh well there's always next week.


Regards,
Howie.

Ramius4
20-07-2013, 17:14
I'm pretty sure it's still a week early for any potential preorders to go up. If there's any going up that is...

Spiney Norman
20-07-2013, 17:15
sorry yes, nation of corpses....still; i'd put raising continents, etc above super necromancy :) but ya, it could be moreritual magic, using items, etc and a combination of magic power.

damnit..i thought preorders for aug would be on the GW site today...nothing :(

SAnjay

Why would you think that? Except in very special cases (Apocalypse, Dreadfleet) most Gw releases have a one week preorder, which means that an August release (for Aug 3rd) with see preorders go up on July 27th (next sat). This has been GWs release pattern for all army books and codexes for some years now.

If the established pattern holds we should see white dwarf leaks online Tuesday - Wednesday and preorders about 00:15 Saturday.

Niezck
20-07-2013, 17:49
Glad I'm not the only one thinking it's meant to be 27th/3rd, bit of a relief :P

This next week will tell if it really is Lizards or not I think, though I'd be shocked if it wasn't with the amount of hype and expectation going around.

Spiney Norman
20-07-2013, 18:22
Glad I'm not the only one thinking it's meant to be 27th/3rd, bit of a relief :P

This next week will tell if it really is Lizards or not I think, though I'd be shocked if it wasn't with the amount of hype and expectation going around.

Yep, however long the preorder period is the general rule of thumb is that they always go up on White dwarf release day. I can't help but think sales of white dwarf would be negatively impacted if they put pictures of all the new models up on the net a week before it hit the shelves, especially since the front half of the magazine is pretty much dedicated to showing pictures of said models.

Doommasters
20-07-2013, 20:25
Happy to see the slann stay powerful provided they deal to cupped hands and make the old blood more viable as a general so that everytime you play lizardmen you don't have to face the slann.

Spiney Norman
20-07-2013, 20:37
Happy to see the slann stay powerful provided they deal to cupped hands and make the old blood more viable as a general so that everytime you play lizardmen you don't have to face the slann.

Making the Oldblood better would not make Slann less essential, the only way LM players will take the Slann out is if they provide an alternative Level 4 wizard. Playing 8th edition without a Level 4 is basically just inviting your opponent to run you of in the magic phase, its tactical suicide, especially in an army that is majority initiative of 1, a high level PSX can potentially remove over half your army.

Liber
20-07-2013, 21:10
*complains about state of lizardmen*


Dwarf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Brettonian, and Beastmen players would like a word ;)


I wait expectantly for HE players to start lamenting their army when they get a 9th ed book in a years time :rolleyes:

StarFyreXXX
20-07-2013, 23:07
Spiney- reason i thought today would be preordered; if the army update is truly aug 3...then its similar to what happened with the 40k apoc stuff. The necron ctan thingy and the khorne robtic thingy were on the GW sight beforethe 6th, yet they went on official sale july 13. They either came on the site the last week of June or july 1. I remember being at work and waiting until the weekend and checkingebay but everything still said preorder. Checked GW, yup..stillanother week or more.

So, maybe it's about 2 weeks prior..hencethis coming monday? just hoping but it would make sense if 2 saturdays from now is the release sincethat is what apoc did.

Sanjay

Spiney Norman
21-07-2013, 02:04
Spiney- reason i thought today would be preordered; if the army update is truly aug 3...then its similar to what happened with the 40k apoc stuff. The necron ctan thingy and the khorne robtic thingy were on the GW sight beforethe 6th, yet they went on official sale july 13. They either came on the site the last week of June or july 1. I remember being at work and waiting until the weekend and checkingebay but everything still said preorder. Checked GW, yup..stillanother week or more.

So, maybe it's about 2 weeks prior..hencethis coming monday? just hoping but it would make sense if 2 saturdays from now is the release sincethat is what apoc did.

Sanjay

Sure, but even for a release that has a two week preorder the preorders still go on the site on WD release day, not a week before. GW has consistently linked WD release with preorder to synchronise the release of pictures of new stuff, also most army books and codexes only tend to have 1 week preorder, the two week preorders are usually only for special releases like apoc, boxed games and new core game editions.



Dwarf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Brettonian, and Beastmen players would like a word ;)


I wait expectantly for HE players to start lamenting their army when they get a 9th ed book in a years time :rolleyes:

In the case of Lizardmen I think the majority of lamenting will be done straight after release. The LM army is one of the most powerful in the game right now, the only conceivable reason to rush throug a new army book for them now is to nerf them, particularly the Slann and Salamanders.

Doommasters
22-07-2013, 02:19
Making the Oldblood better would not make Slann less essential, the only way LM players will take the Slann out is if they provide an alternative Level 4 wizard. Playing 8th edition without a Level 4 is basically just inviting your opponent to run you of in the magic phase, its tactical suicide, especially in an army that is majority initiative of 1, a high level PSX can potentially remove over half your army.

Looking for some like they did with the VC by allowing access to a cheap lvl4 Master Necromancer leaving open the opportunity to play around with a blender vamp. Unless they significantly buff the carnasaour I can see them sitting in the cuboards and on shop shelves for another generation. They could also play around with the Old blood making cole one cavalry core and or provding a buffs to units (something GW does not do enough of imo). Either way I am still of the opinion the Slann with be the go lord/caster even if less powerful that the current generation. The fact one model can be your lvl4 and bsb is just pure win.

StarFyreXXX
22-07-2013, 02:31
i hope they make tetto eko a lvl 3 hero. yes he would be unique but maybe make him a bit more pts to balance it. Not sure how big a deal having a level 3 hero would be... and fluff wise it makes sense for him to be in a temple guard unit, so if they make a finecast model, the palanquin should be larger. also gives ppl a reason to buy more temple guard (if they want both a slann and tetto).

:)

Sanjay

Spiney Norman
22-07-2013, 08:01
i hope they make tetto eko a lvl 3 hero. yes he would be unique but maybe make him a bit more pts to balance it. Not sure how big a deal having a level 3 hero would be... and fluff wise it makes sense for him to be in a temple guard unit, so if they make a finecast model, the palanquin should be larger. also gives ppl a reason to buy more temple guard (if they want both a slann and tetto).

:)

Sanjay
Funny, I was kind of hoping they would drop tetto eko and the rest of the badly designed, stupidly named characters that they invented last edition and didn't make models for, both tetto eko and tictacto felt like I'll-conceived shoe-ins next to characters with established backgrounds like Kroak and Tehenhauin. I would dump both tetto and tictacto (just rebrand the tictacto model as skink chieftain on Terradon), and Gorrok come to think of it, he had the same reek of invent-a-special-character-for-the-sake-of-it as the two skinks.

I think my fondest wish is that they bring back Nakai as a special character, but I somehow think that is unlikely since they seem to have decided long ago that there wasn't a place for Kroxigor special characters in the LM list. I'd also very much like them to bring out a new model for Oxyotl, he's a great character that suffers from being the only 5th edition Lizardmen model still on sale.

I currently run a "L3" skink priest in my carnosaur list (L2 priest on an engine with the plaque of tepok) and it works fairly well. If they made Tehenhauin a L3 I would be all over him (note he can ride an engine too).

Note the new rumours in the N&R forum, according to that there is a finecast riderless carnosaur, which is a much, much more sensible way of getting a carno into your list.

thrawn
24-07-2013, 13:14
do LM! right now they're the new black.

HereComesTomorrow
24-07-2013, 13:39
So has anyone changed their thoughts now we lknow the new releases?

I'm guessing the people wanting Carnocav (or any Monsterous cavalry at all) are disappointed? Personally I'm surprised only three new units got introduced and only one is totally new (not counting head swaps on a Carnosaur and terrapins as new) It seems a bit half assed to me. I'm not saying the models are bad, just that it seems like a bit "meh" variety-wise. Maybe the book will make up for it.

The bearded one
24-07-2013, 16:53
In the case of Lizardmen I think the majority of lamenting will be done straight after release.

Aye, it's gonna be marvellous! My entire army is already getting rofl-facepunched by solo WoC daemon princes as it is.



... stupid WoC daemon princes.. ruining the game..

Niezck
24-07-2013, 17:53
I was looking forward to something big and hitty to rival the skullcrushers/demigryphs/mournfang trends, ideally in the form of carno cav but I can honestly say I'm not disappointed. So many things about this release seem excellent, though of course that may change when we get the actual rules. But, at first glance, scar vets on carnosaurs will change things a lot, especially in cannon-light environments (though that's becoming basically nowhere anymore...), troglodons in rare looks pretty nice, as do bastiladons being a heavy tank monster. Mixing in skink high priests too means we should be able to get a real monster mash list, assuming there's CoC in core, or if not then using Skrox. Carno lord, skink high priest, scar vets on carnos, skrox/CoC, stegs, bastiladons, troglodons and hunting pack support... Mmm, delicious dinosaurs!

IcedCrow
24-07-2013, 18:06
Making the Oldblood better would not make Slann less essential, the only way LM players will take the Slann out is if they provide an alternative Level 4 wizard. Playing 8th edition without a Level 4 is basically just inviting your opponent to run you of in the magic phase, its tactical suicide, especially in an army that is majority initiative of 1, a high level PSX can potentially remove over half your army.

I have to disagree .... quite strongly. I have never used a level 4 one time in 8th edition. The last time I ran a level 4 was in 6th edition and that was to try something out. To date I have played with warriors of chaos, demons of chaos, tomb kings, and empire in 8th edition. I have done quite well. Its not as easy I'll concede to play without one in this edition but it is not tactical suicide either.

Steapa
24-07-2013, 19:51
White dwarf daily said that Saturday the 27th will supposedly be the big day they give out info on lizardmen. They have a little flash video that is just a guy screaming to a dino mauling him and it just says Saturday. I am an OG player but very interested in seeing this update to LM

The bearded one
24-07-2013, 19:51
I have never used a level 4 one time in 8th edition.

Well yeah, ..but you're a crazy person.

IcedCrow
24-07-2013, 20:13
Well yeah, ..but you're a crazy person.

This is true sir. This is true.

Steapa
24-07-2013, 20:45
I don't think in the last ten years of playing off and on... Watching many hundreds of batreps. Reading batreps and forums... That I've ever heard of a LM player who didn't have a slann. Yea I think it'd be good to have a change.

They are supposedly getting a melee heavy special char who may fill that general role in the new edition.

IcedCrow
24-07-2013, 20:53
I don't think in the last ten years of playing off and on... Watching many hundreds of batreps. Reading batreps and forums... That I've ever heard of a LM player who didn't have a slann. Yea I think it'd be good to have a change.

They are supposedly getting a melee heavy special char who may fill that general role in the new edition.

I have never seen a lizardman army without a slaan ever either. With the way magic works in 8th I don't foresee their fighty lord taking the place of a slaan either. The only way I see him getting taken is if it is possible to take him AND a slaan.

The bearded one
24-07-2013, 20:59
I used to start my lizardmen with an old blood and several lvl 2 skink priests with as many anti-magic items as they could carry. They were my first army after dwarfs so I wasn't fond of magic. Then I tried out a slann once for the giggles and the effectiveness of the entire army basically doubled.

Steapa
24-07-2013, 21:08
Well it's true that is hard to compete with a slanns magic potential and you could argue that the LM army just doesn't function without magic support the way it's designed. Hopefully the new book can change this and really open up some new options. Honestly I would like to see an option for a brute army, not so different tha. Ogres? As an option for lizards. I mean... Don't know about you but dinosaur > ogre in my world