PDA

View Full Version : Does High Elf rule 'Lileath's Blessing' stack with multiple mages?



Wyrms
20-07-2013, 08:00
Hi there, long time lurker, first time poster. Love the site!

Wording of Lileath's Blessing in the new HE book is "Models with this special rule add +1 to all attempts to cast spells form the Lore of High Magic."

Majority seem to assume it applies to just that mage's own spells, but as written it would appear that it is "all attempts" so the following would be true:

1) The more high elf mages with this rule you have, the more +1s you add to their attempt to cast High Magic. eg. Three lvl 1 Mages in your army, you're adding +3 to all attempts to cast High Magic.
2) HE mages with other schools will still contribute to the casts of those with High Magic.
3) Khaine's Ring of Fury, even when wielded by a non-magic lord/hero, benefits from +1 to cast from each HE mage in the army.

Reason I post is that I see the writer of this guide (here (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tactics/8th_Edition/High_Elves)) appears to assume this is common knowledge, but i don't see a lot of collaboration elsewhere on the net where the general assumption appears to be it just applies to to mage him/herself. What say you?

Apologies if I am late to this discussion!

bigbiggles
20-07-2013, 16:44
I'm 99% sure it does not work that way. Mages can only cast their own spells, no help from anyone else. Their are a few other armies with similar benefits to casting, and I've never heard of anyone using it that way

kefkah
20-07-2013, 17:08
BigBiggles is right.

1) No, you add 1+ to casting attemps from the lore of high magic, the caster who is casting the spell gets 1+(and no one else), so does the second and third mage, but it dosent stack to 3+.
2)No, if you have another school of magic you arent casting spells from the lore of high magic.
3) Khaines ring of fury is a bound spell with a set value (3) so thats the casting value you need to get, regardless of wizard lvl or lileath?s blessing. You do however get the lore attribute for high magic.

NitrosOkay
20-07-2013, 17:33
Bound spells are not 'attempts to cast'. They're using an item.

theunwantedbeing
20-07-2013, 18:14
There are 2 ways to read the rule.

1. The rule only applies to casting attempts by the model with the rule.
2. The rule applies to all casting attempts.

The second one is clearly wrong, but we shall have to wait for an FAQ on the matter.

Also,
Bound spells when used, are attempts to cast.
(although never benefit from casting modifiers, as per their rules)

kefkah
20-07-2013, 18:26
Also,
Bound spells when used, are attempts to cast.

Casting Value is still 3 on khaines ring(what you need). Im having a hard time seeing how it would benefeit from lillaths blessing and going to a 2+, wich is kind of moot if someone wants to really argue that since anything below 3 is a fail anyways.

I would also argue that demanding a FAQ on this is akin (almost, not quite) with the FAQ if a Daemon Prince was/is a Daemon. Used to be +1 to dispell, and when that came out i can remember some people reading it as +1 to dispell for each mage.

theunwantedbeing
20-07-2013, 19:17
Casting Value is still 3 on khaines ring(what you need). Im having a hard time seeing how it would benefeit from lillaths blessing and going to a 2+, wich is kind of moot if someone wants to really argue that since anything below 3 is a fail anyways.

+1 to cast doesn't lower the required casting value by 1.
It increases the casting attempt by 1.

kefkah
20-07-2013, 19:44
+1 to cast doesn't lower the required casting value by 1.
It increases the casting attempt by 1.

zzzz whats up with you not making anything you write about bound spell( wich i quoted) clear?.

The ring of khaine, on a mage or a non mage, is cast at the set value (3). Are you now saying lilleaths blessing in some way affects this bound spell, and if it does, it makes it any kind of a diffrence on 3+ wich is the bare minimum not to fail (1 to 2 is always a fail). Im talking about the bound spell, obviously, since i qouted your part about it and talked about a bound spell.

Set value of 3+, regardless what wizard lvl you are or what special rule you have. I said 2+ since the bound spell has a set value and you would need a 2+ if lilleaths blessing worked on it, wich it dosent.

To the OP, read my and bigbriggles post and look into the rules for bound spell and you see that it is correct.

Kain187
20-07-2013, 20:05
No FAQ is needed you just need to freshen up your basic rules on the casting section...A wizard casts his own spells and when casting a HE magic he receives a plus 1 regardless if your running 50 casters on the board. Bound spells receive 0 benefit from the caster and can even be used by non casters if their not an arcane item.

LiddellHart
20-07-2013, 21:55
The second one is clearly wrong, but we shall have to wait for an FAQ on the matter.


Why wait for a FAQ if something is clearly wrong? If GW has to FAQ everything that is clearly wrong, they have a hell of a job ahead.

I'd prefer they leave this one to common sense, and start answering the real ambigous issues!

Wyrms
21-07-2013, 12:21
Huge thanks for the help guys, not a veteran player at all so your help is very appreciated.

Not applying to point 3 due to the rules on bound spells makes perfect sense, but I'm not sure I follow you on the following reasoning:


There are 2 ways to read the rule.

1. The rule only applies to casting attempts by the model with the rule.
2. The rule applies to all casting attempts.

The second one is clearly wrong, but we shall have to wait for an FAQ on the matter.


Why is the second one clearly wrong if the text says "to all attempts to cast spells"? Wouldn't it mean exactly that?

And:


Mages can only cast their own spells, no help from anyone else.

If that were true wouldn't items that add general modifiers to casting be incorrect? For example, the Banner of Avelorn?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out.

Kain187
21-07-2013, 19:25
go read about spells its about 3 pages or just take our word for it.

LiddellHart
21-07-2013, 20:46
Why is the second one clearly wrong if the text says "to all attempts to cast spells"? Wouldn't it mean exactly that?



Ok, let me put it like this.

If you read BRB p. 31, first paragraphs, it is clear that not PLAYERS cast spells, but Wizard(model)s.
A wizard can attempt to cast, a wizard can apply modifiers and so on.

You quoted the relevant item rule as: "Models with this special rule add +1 to all attempts to cast spells form the Lore of High Magic."

As unwantedbeing demonstrated this could be interpreted in two ways: restrictively, only the model with the rule benefits, or liberally, all casting of high magic benefits.

If only the model with the rule benefits, everything is fine. This is in line with other comparable effects from special rules and items, e.g. book of ashur and staff of sorcery.
If you choose all casting to be effected, you should go all the way: all your High Magic AND your opponents should benefit.

To me, the latter is clearly wrong, just going by common sense.

But ofcourse everybody is entitled to his own common sense.:p

kefkah
22-07-2013, 08:01
But ofcourse everybody is entitled to his own common sense.:p

Using your own "common sense" when interpetating rules is akin to cheating. I would say a High Elf Player getting 6+ to cast on his lvl 4 cause he as a lvl 1 in the list also very much cheating, and i dont need to wait for a FAQ for know that!.

OP: As Kain187 says, go reread the basic rules or take our work for it.

The very short explenation. A wizard casts his own spells, so he only gets his own lilleath blessing. He dosent get his dad, his mom, his sisters or anyone else.

thrawn
23-07-2013, 00:12
ya kefkah is right (at least that's how i read it). trying to interperut anyother way is akin to saying "well it doesn't say you can, and it doesn't say you can't, so i'll assume you can" when clearly it was not intended that way.

cptcosmic
30-07-2013, 11:25
actually, if it would be applied to casting attempts by the model it would be written the following way => "Models with this special rule add +1 to all THEIR attempts to cast spells form the Lore of High Magic."

but it is not written that way, the rule says => "Models with this special rule add +1 to all attempts to cast spells form the Lore of High Magic.".

I repeat, a model with this special rule add +1 TO ALL ATTEMPTS to cast from the lore of high magic, thus it actually specifically states the opposite. there is no "trying to interpret" it another way and there is no room for interpretation, "ALL ATTEMPTS" is actually pretty clear cause it obviously includes ALL ATTEMPTS (casting from another mage is clearly in the definition of "ALL ATTEMPTS"). saying it means something else and claiming others are "trying to interpret it differently" just makes you look bad when the rule states the opposite.

if it was intended to be that way is another story but it looks better on paper than it actually is. the effect is limited to only one flexible but lackluster lore without any "attribute test or die with no save" spells. a third caster to stack the effect faces heavy diminishing return, cause he wont have any dice left to cast anthing thus he does not offer much beside the +1 for ~100 points

Francis
30-07-2013, 12:49
cptcosmic has it. While I doubt that this is RAI, by RAW all attempts to cast high magic (including those of the opponent) benefit from Lileath's Blessing. Take a look at this discussion over at Ulthuan http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=50050.

Bloodedsoul
30-07-2013, 14:13
I was under the impression special rules did not stack unless explicitly stated so (such as frenzy and extra hand weapon), am I wrong?

cptcosmic
30-07-2013, 14:20
I was under the impression special rules did not stack unless explicitly stated so (such as frenzy and extra hand weapon), am I wrong?
except that no special rule is being stacked.

Francis
30-07-2013, 14:37
It'll get sorted out in the FAQ when it appears.
It'll be changed to only working to spells cast by the model with the rule. (ie. RAI, not RAW)

That's my impression as well but in the meantime I'll have fun running my lvl 4 with two lvl 1 apprentices and get a +7 to cast when using high magic :D.

cptcosmic
30-07-2013, 14:43
I am sure it is meant to be read as "add +1 to all attempts for models with this rule" and not "each model adds +1". the problem is that "add" can be handled differently here and both ways would be actually correct according to the rule.

kefkah
30-07-2013, 20:19
So...lmao. IN a High Elves VS High Elves, (both sides having High Elv) with 2 mages each, EVERYONE will have 4+ to cast High Magic Irrelevant of what lore your wielding?. Sounds legit.

Ardecay
31-07-2013, 07:03
except that no special rule is being stacked.


That's my impression as well but in the meantime I'll have fun running my lvl 4 with two lvl 1 apprentices and get a +7 to cast when using high magic :D.

Are we sure this is not stacking a Special Rule??

cptcosmic
31-07-2013, 08:48
Are we sure this is not stacking a Special Rule??
you dont have the same a special rule on a single model thus no stacking involved. stacking modifiers is not the same as stacking rules.

anyway models get +1 to all attempts just means models gets (only) +1 and not for each model in your army. you can read it that way but I am sure that it isnt supposed to be like that.

kefkah
31-07-2013, 09:32
you dont have the same a special rule on a single model thus no stacking involved. stacking modifiers is not the same as stacking rules.

anyway models get +1 to all attempts just means models gets (only) +1 and not for each model in your army. you can read it that way but I am sure that it isnt supposed to be like that.


Im with you 100 %. Yes you can read it both ways but i need a very good argument for it to be read like 1+ for each mage, and not 1 in total.

As a quiz, i remember when the old book came out and yet months in there were still players arguing for that you would, like in this case, add a +1 to your dispell for each mage. GW needs to learn not to put any rule in a single sentence or they just have to FAQ for everyone arguing for a overpowered version of it.

I look at the Ulthuan lore and when someone sayd that made it powerfull (to having +6 to cast with your lvl 4 if you brought a lvl 1) that it was probably meant that way since lore of high magic has no "dwellers".

kefkah
31-07-2013, 09:53
doubell posts.