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HammerofThunor
21-07-2013, 20:49
Quick question regarding something I heard about.

Unit of cavalry gets charged in the flank by a unit of large infantry (40mm base). All but one of the cavalry gets killed on the charge and the last man standing is a character. There are three 40mm in contact with the cavalry base. The rule is that the cavalry model cannot turn to face the attacking unit because this would result in only two models being in base contact.

Is this correct, RAW? I've had a look in my rulebook and can't see any way round it.

Archis
21-07-2013, 22:08
You are correct, can't combat reform to have less models in combat on either side

Wilhelm das Blutige
21-07-2013, 22:29
You are correct, can't combat reform to have less models in combat on either side

I assume you are referring to the rule on p 55 - 'Reforming from Victory'.

I think the intention of the rule is that a character or unit is allowed to reform to face the enemy unit as long as the character or unit is not moved out of contact with the enemy UNIT (though admittedly it does not specify this, and the is nothing in the Errata/FAQ to clarify either).

I wish I had seen this ruling the other day when I reformed from victory and moved my Vampire OUT of contact with the enemy, when I could have reformed AND kept him IN contact, as I wanted. (My unit was wider so I would have been bringing more models into contact).

dementian
21-07-2013, 22:34
I assume you are referring to the rule on p 55 - 'Reforming from Victory'.

I think the intention of the rule is that a character or unit is allowed to reform to face the enemy unit as long as the character or unit is not moved out of contact with the enemy UNIT (though admittedly it does not specify this, and the is nothing in the Errata/FAQ to clarify either).

I wish I had seen this ruling the other day when I reformed from victory and moved my Vampire OUT of contact with the enemy, when I could have reformed AND kept him IN contact, as I wanted. (My unit was wider so I would have been bringing more models into contact).

You cannot combat reform to take models out of combat either friendly or enemy.

RejjeN
22-07-2013, 00:38
This is a more common problem for Chariots and chariot based monsters than it is for lone cavalry models >>

Duke_Corwin
22-07-2013, 05:25
As long as you remain in contact with as many of the enemy as possible you should be fine. I couldn't find anything under combat reform that says that you have to be in contact with every enemy you contacted before the reform. It just says you have to remain in contact with the enemy.

I guess the issue is how does GW define "enemy".

Wilhelm das Blutige
22-07-2013, 10:06
As long as you remain in contact with as many of the enemy as possible you should be fine. I couldn't find anything under combat reform that says that you have to be in contact with every enemy you contacted before the reform. It just says you have to remain in contact with the enemy.

I guess the issue is how does GW define "enemy".

I tend to agree with you on this one. The rule is poorly worded.

I don't see why a character or unit should be denied it's right to combat reform, especially if they won the combat resolution.

Winning the combat, or even making the leadership test to reform from defeat, to my mind means that the character or unit has managed to drive back the foes in his flank or rear and is able to turn to face them. They are still in contact with "the enemy".

Admittedly, if the character was in base contact with a powerful character, for example, and the reform would take him out of contact with that particular character, the opposing player should be allowed to move his character (or whatever) back into contact with the character (or unit) that reformed.

If a unit is in contact with enemy units on more than one side (front and flank, for example), then the unit cannot reform at all. This particular ruling is quite clearly mentioned.

kefkah
22-07-2013, 10:12
I tend to agree with you on this one. The rule is poorly worded.

I don't see why a character or unit should be denied it's right to combat reform, especially if they won the combat resolution.

Winning the combat, or even making the leadership test to reform from defeat, to my mind means that the character or unit has managed to drive back the foes in his flank or rear and is able to turn to face them. They are still in contact with "the enemy".

Admittedly, if the character was in base contact with a powerful character, for example, and the reform would take him out of contact with that particular character, the opposing player should be allowed to move his character (or whatever) back into contact with the character (or unit) that reformed.

If a unit is in contact with enemy units on more than one side (front and flank, for example), then the unit cannot reform at all. This particular ruling is quite clearly mentioned.

Its pretty clear that you cant reform and end up contacting less models you did before. In this example, having 3 guys on your flank and then combat-reforming to having only 2 in btb is illegal, even if in your mind he has managed to drive back the foes to his rear.

Mostly this only comes up at odd situations on cav and 20&25 mm bases. On monsters and chariots, odds are that if you get flank charged you cant combat reform to face the front due to not being in bsb with that many models anymore.

Efrovius
22-07-2013, 14:54
Page 55 (small rulebook)
REFORMING FROM VICTORY (with Errata change made)
"There are two special restrictions on a combat reform, however – it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made, and the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with."
Pretty sure that makes the move illegal since the cavalry character went out of base contact with one of his foes.

Separate but similar type question:
A unit Lizardman Saurus' (10 x 2) with an Old Blood is in base contact with an Empire Steam Tank for a couple of rounds of CC. Finally, the Empire Knights of the White Wolf get a successful charge into the flank of the Saurus unit. At this point, the Old Blood wants to leave base contact with the STank (since he can't kill it - Life Mage in the area) and go kill some Knights. So he declares a Challenge on the Knight unit, which he is legal to do even though he's not in base contact with the unit. However, I do not think he is legal to leave base contact with the STank to do it. Is he?

So we let him leave the STank and go after the Knights. The Knights (5 x 3) have full command, a Grand Templar, and one normal Knight in the front rank. Empire player declines the Challenge with his unit Champion and claims that he does not have to "slinks off to the back ranks (pg 102)" as he is not a character and he read on Warseer that the Command Group does not leave the front rank unless there is no room due to characters. Does the Champion have to leave the front rank?

With the Challenge refused, the Lizzie player asks, does the Old Blood even move as there is no one who will fight him? If a Challenge is refused and the Challenger is not in base contact with the unit, does the Challenger need to move?

We searched the rulebook to justify each of these decisions and could not find a definitive answer for any of them. Help appreciated.

Vadth
22-07-2013, 18:33
So we let him leave the STank and go after the Knights. The Knights (5 x 3) have full command, a Grand Templar, and one normal Knight in the front rank. Empire player declines the Challenge with his unit Champion and claims that he does not have to "slinks off to the back ranks (pg 102)" as he is not a character and he read on Warseer that the Command Group does not leave the front rank unless there is no room due to characters. Does the Champion have to leave the front rank?


You have a lot of interesting questions I don't know the answer to, but this bit I can help with. For one the Command will never leave the front rank, not even characters will display them. Second the Empire player doesn't get to decide who goes the back, the Challenger does. Third the champion is not an option to choose to slink off to the back ranks, it must be a character.

Efrovius
22-07-2013, 20:36
You have a lot of interesting questions I don't know the answer to, but this bit I can help with. For one the Command will never leave the front rank, not even characters will display them. Second the Empire player doesn't get to decide who goes the back, the Challenger does. Third the champion is not an option to choose to slink off to the back ranks, it must be a character.

Vadth - thank you very much. I looked up what you talked about and agree 100% with what you said. Very helpful. Are you sure you can't answer the rest of them? ;-)

kefkah
22-07-2013, 20:55
Vadth - thank you very much. I looked up what you talked about and agree 100% with what you said. Very helpful. Are you sure you can't answer the rest of them? ;-)

I can try (i hope).

So the saurus wants to be in bsb with the knights. He cant make way, since that is in the first round of combat. He cant reform since there is a unit to the flank.

So for the challenge, obviously the knights cant zipzop out of the unit to meet the challenge, so you move the saurus to met them. If, there is no way of moving him at all, you leave them to be the way they are but they will still fight out the challenge.

The way i see it him fighting the knights was if he accepted the challenge, you move your Old Blood to meet them on the other end of the first rank. If he kills the challenger, he will stay in that spot and in bsb to the knights.

Also in a regular reform, you can reform a character to be in contact with a diffrent enemy.

Sloppy answered, but i hope it helps.

Lord Inquisitor
22-07-2013, 21:06
Separate but similar type question:
A unit Lizardman Saurus' (10 x 2) with an Old Blood is in base contact with an Empire Steam Tank for a couple of rounds of CC. Finally, the Empire Knights of the White Wolf get a successful charge into the flank of the Saurus unit. At this point, the Old Blood wants to leave base contact with the STank (since he can't kill it - Life Mage in the area) and go kill some Knights. So he declares a Challenge on the Knight unit, which he is legal to do even though he's not in base contact with the unit. However, I do not think he is legal to leave base contact with the STank to do it. Is he?
If the enemy declares a challenge then he moves to meet the challenger. If he declares the challenge he doesn't move and the other character can't move to meet him (since they're on the flank). So they just stay there and are assumed to be in base contact. Slightly strange, and most people play that the challenger moves to contact if the challengee cannot but that's not the letter of the rule.


So we let him leave the STank and go after the Knights. The Knights (5 x 3) have full command, a Grand Templar, and one normal Knight in the front rank. Empire player declines the Challenge with his unit Champion and claims that he does not have to "slinks off to the back ranks (pg 102)" as he is not a character and he read on Warseer that the Command Group does not leave the front rank unless there is no room due to characters. Does the Champion have to leave the front rank?
You don't get to pick who you refuse with. So if there's a grand templar and a champion, then yes, the grand master has to be retired to the rear ranks if possible. Only if the champion is on his own can you say "nope, going to stay right here". Put another way, if I'm the Empire guy and I have a grand master and a unit champion if I refuse the challenge you get to pick who declines but you can't pick the champion. So basically it has to be the grand master in this case but if I had a warrior priest in there you pick which runs away.


With the Challenge refused, the Lizzie player asks, does the Old Blood even move as there is no one who will fight him? If a Challenge is refused and the Challenger is not in base contact with the unit, does the Challenger need to move?
Note again that the challenger technically never moves. If you play the challenger moves if the challengee cannot, then if it is declined I'd say you don't move as that's only when accepted.

Efrovius
23-07-2013, 13:46
Excellent! Thank you kefkah and Lord Inquisitor.
kefkah brings up another question, though - Since the Old Blood was in base contact and dealing blows to the STank for a couple of rounds, would he have been prohibited from Making Way! to fight the Knights (assuming there was no Challenge at all)?

Pg 100 (srb) "... At the start of the combat (before Impact Hits are resolved), if a character's unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact."

So as this is a Multiple CC situation and the "start of the combat" has come and gone two turns ago, the Old Blood could not Make Way!, correct?

yeknoMehT
23-07-2013, 14:35
Excellent! Thank you kefkah and Lord Inquisitor.
kefkah brings up another question, though - Since the Old Blood was in base contact and dealing blows to the STank for a couple of rounds, would he have been prohibited from Making Way! to fight the Knights (assuming there was no Challenge at all)?

Pg 100 (srb) "... At the start of the combat (before Impact Hits are resolved), if a character's unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact."

So as this is a Multiple CC situation and the "start of the combat" has come and gone two turns ago, the Old Blood could not Make Way!, correct?

You could not make way, for the reason that you can only do that if you are not in base contact. I'd hesitate to say that just because it's not the first round of combat you could not do it (if you were not engaged), but I doubt that would come up very often anyway!

Worth noting that if you are engaged on multiple sides, you cannot do a combat reform, so while you can reform a character into contact with a different enemy, it will only be allowed to carry out a reform if you are engaged on only one side.

T10
23-07-2013, 14:35
You don't get to pick who you refuse with.

True. The challenge rules can be a bit confusing, but it breaks down like this:

You issue a challenge with a specific character or champion model, and you accept a challenge with a specific character or champion model. However, the challenge itself isn't refused unless all character and champion models that can accept refrain from doing so.

Imagine, if you will, that the Challenger has called out the question: "Who among you is man enough to face me?" and is waiting for someone (anyone!) to answer. His opponents aren't shouting back "I'm not! Not me!" but are instead keeping quiet and looking the other way, hoping for someone else to step forward.

Before the challenge can be considered refused, however, you need to check that all those character models can actually ignore the challenge. Some special rules may force a challenge to be accepted, but the most mundane circumstance is when a character model (but not a champion!) cannot be retired to a position where he cannot fight, a frequent problem for single-model character units like characters riding a monster or a chariot. The only thing that can get them out of being forced to accept is if a different model accepts the challenge. After all, a challenge can only be answered by a single opponent.

Assuming that no models have to accept the challenge, the player issueing the challenge gets to pick an enemy character (but not a champion!) that must be retired from the combat.

-T10

Efrovius
23-07-2013, 19:24
Thank you yeknoMehT and T10.